I saw a very depressing statistic the other day. This is a world of depressing statistics. I can't remember who did the polling but I was watching CNN at the time. It showed that nearly half of Americans believe WMDs were found in Iraq.
This kind of statistic points not only to a stunning level of ignorance in our population but also to a willful ignorance. The kind of ignorance that re-elected the current President.
This isn't a matter of being a democrat or a republican. It is much larger and much more frightening.
The question is this: given the fracturing we've seen in this country along racial, political, educational, cultural, and economic class lines ... are we heading for our own version of sectarian conflict? Have we seen the first stages of it in these past six years?
As we see the political tide turning against the Bush administration will we allow ourselves, those of us I should say, that felt all along the overwhelming desire to scream out, “told you so!” to become perversely effusive as we see everything we feared and warned about coming true? What will this attitude achieve?
Perhaps we should take the time over the next year or so to begin finding ways to reach out to that near majority who still think there are WMDs in Iraq and find ways of lifting up the level of conversation, of shedding some light on various issues – to be perfectly frank, to educate.
Again let me be clear, I am not suggesting in any way to try and sway these folks to become democrats. Lord knows BOTH parties are fatally flawed. The real issue here is trying, while we still can, to avoid this country from slipping into a kind of mob rule which was, I should point out, the reason Plato was terrified of Athenian democracy.
I feel that is where we are heading now. The level of vitriolic language used by an entire host of supposed “conservatives” in trying to continually whip up blind emotion in the masses will not be stilled by the glaringly apparent criminal behavior of the Bush administration. The cries of “conspiracy!” by these demagogues has already started and it will grow ever louder as the fog of the emperor's new clothes lifts...
Therefore let's forgo the jubilation we rightly feel is our right in proving how wrong the other 51% were. Let's find a way to bridge the gap. Let's find a way to illuminate the discussions about various issues above the emotional froth. Let's find new ground where we can agree and where we cannot, let's at least agree to have the patience to continue to try and discover what really is best for all of us.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Al Barger
"How do we react to the fact that nearly half of Americans believe WMDs were found in Iraq?" The proper reaction would be to point those who are not aware to the fact that there have been hundreds of rounds of WMD type ammo recovered in Iraq. Very little compared to what we expected to find, but a LOT more than NONE.
So then in answer to the original question, we point those not aware of the fact that we have in fact found some WMDs to THIS RELEVANT ARTICLE. Then, as Uma Thurman's Fox Force Five character would say, we tell them to "ketchup."
2 - Jet in Columbus
Branding the tiny amount of WMDs found in Iraq as significant, is like a cop finding a spent bullet on the corner of High Street and Broad Street in downtown Columbus and trying to declare the entire state of Ohio a crime scene.
3 - Deano
Maybe you should now post the follow-up article on Santorum's "news" that noted:
"The intelligence officials also said that the munitions referred to in the report were produced before the Persian Gulf War in 1991 and that they had degraded and could not be used as designed. "There is no evidence today of any post-1991 WMD munitions," said the official, who agreed to speak with reporters only if his identity and his agency were not disclosed."
4 - Al Barger
The stuff that we've found seems to be old stock, some of which may or may not be fully potent or usable. I would understand that mustard gas type stuff would likely be more degraded, but the sarin would probably retain more potency.
But we've recovered something like 500 rounds. Whereas it was my understanding that Hussein wiped out a whole village of Kurds with around 15 similar shells. That's not nothing, and it's not one empty shell casing.
Plus of course, that's only what we've been able to lay hands on, not counting anything buried or shipped out to Syria.
Yes, I readily concede that this is far less WMDs than most folks expected to find, but enough to wipe out dozens of villages is a lot more than none. It is factually inaccurate to say that there were no WMDs found.
5 - Michael J. West
Mr. Barger, in addition to Dean's quote about the WMDs being essentially unusable, bear in mind this part:
"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "How do we react to the fact that nearly half of Americans believe that the WMDs America said existed in massive stockpiles and with the potential to be a real threat to the US or anyone else were found in Iraq?"
Because of the nearly half of Americans that believe we found WMDs, most genuinely do believe the above statement with my emphasis. And that's the whole cruz of the error, isn't it?
6 - Clavos
Marlowesbeef, this is the most arrogant, the most patronizing, and the most condescending article I've ever read on BC.
If you're actually serious about your stated goal of reuniting the factions in the country and preventing a "sectarian war," statements like this:
This kind of statistic points not only to a stunning level of ignorance in our population but also to a willful ignorance. The kind of ignorance that re-elected the current President.
And this:
Perhaps we should take the time over the next year or so to begin finding ways to reach out to that near majority who still think there are WMDs in Iraq and find ways of lifting up the level of conversation, of shedding some light on various issues " to be perfectly frank, to educate.
And this:
Of course, I should amend here that in referring to that 51% - I am speaking about those good-hearted Americans who truthfully, if naively, felt that Bush and Co., actually represented the best path for America.
And this:
You see, it isn't the fellow who is hanging the flag on his front porch that is the enemy. The enemy has beautifully orchestrated that ignorance in order to take control of our government.
And this:
There is only one way to save us from such a future "- education. Not in schools, but in person. Reaching out to the common man and woman in that 51%
which denigrate and belittle the very people to whom you are supposedly trying to reach out, are most decidedly not the way to go about it.
As one of those ignorant, common men who hangs a flag on his front porch, I wouldn't give you the time of day if you tried to "educate" me while looking down your nose at me like that.
What trash.
Clavos
7 - Michael J. West
I must say, Marlowesbeef, that I hadn't given much thought to the flag-hanging snippet that Clavos quoted, but I think he's got a real point there.
The "USA-all-the-way, right or wrong" crowd IS a major problem...but that crowd is NOT identical to everyone who hangs an American flag on his front porch. Nor is hanging an American flag on your front porch an indication of ignorance. As a great bumper sticker says, "I can dislike Bush and still love my country."
Frankly, I'd like to see my left-leaning compatriots do MORE hanging of the flag on their front porches. It's important to remind people that criticizing our country is not equivalent to hating it.
8 - P Marlowe
Clavos... So sorry that you managed to take offense. Ignorance isn't a sin. Willful ignorance isn't either, though it's sad... Those who feel that blindly following a President so wholly incompetent and an administration riddled with those who would manipulate everyone and everything to have their way, the People, the Constitution, the men and women in Iraq is AKIN to patriotism are the saddest of all...
It isn't a crime to be a Republican or Democrat. It isn't a crime to originally held out high hope for President Bush. And it isn't a crime to cling to the thought that he's a great president now...
But WITH regard to the latter, it is a shame.
Marlowe
9 - P Marlowe
Mr. West...
Perhaps we should all be less concerned on which way someone LEANS and more concerned, ALL of us, in how to deal with the crisis at hand. Because it is just that - a crisis.
We have one party, the Democrats, who have so stereotyped themselves that the only place they REALLY feel comfortable is at a Crosby, Stills and Nash concert.
Then we have the Republicans. A party that screeches at anyone within their ranks that dares to doubt the PARTY LINE.
This same party is dependent on whipping up fear and loathing throughout their constituency.
Those Republicans voters who dare to challenge the demagoguery coming from their party are left bewildered. Who do you vote for when you're not altogether thrilled with the spittle flying from the pulpit?
Perhaps we can START by having Democrats not seeing everyone who DOES wave the flag as a goose-stepping, jackbooted thug... And having Republicans realize that though the house across the street isn't presenting the flag, the people inside are no less patriotic...
True patriotism resides, not in the waving of a piece of cloth, but in the heart and actions of each of us, doesn't it?
PM
"Sheriff Petersen just went right on getting re-elected, a living testimonial to the fact that you can hold an important public office forever in our country with no qualifications for it but a clean nose, a photogenic face, and a closed mouth. If on top of that you look good on a horse, you are unbeatable.", [Philip Marlowe, The Long Goodbye]
10 - Dave Nalle
If there's going to be a sectarian war in America it's going to be people like the author of this post with his condescension and heavyhanded, bullshit propagandizing that perpetrate it.
Dave
11 - P Marlowe
"condescension"? The pot calling the kettle...
You also might spend more time reading your own posts Mr. Nalle. They're in desperate need of overhauling...
In the short time I've been reading them I've been astounded by the Rube Goldberg philosophy you've displayed here. I've yet to see any attempt on your part to offer a way out of the mess we're facing.
We all are ignorant on some level. And given the mounting evidence of just how great a walking, talking diaster this administration is I would LIKE TO THINK you voted them into office OUT OF IGNORANCE and NOT (which would be far worse) KNOWING FULL WELL their true character.
PS. Has anyone asked you to step out from behind your bully pulpit? It isn't polite to hide behind it...
Marlowe
Brass Knuckles: “If you’re big enough you don’t need them, and if you need them you’re not big enough to push me around.” [Marlowe, The Long Goodbye]
12 - JP
Al, unusable spent rounds do not qualify as WMD. Sorry.
13 - Matthew T. Sussman
To the best of my knowledge, Nalle voted for Badnarik.
14 - gonzo marx
Suss, that was Badinoff...Boris Badinoff, with Natasha as his choice of VP...
he's still holding out for the position of "Fearless Leader" tho...
just trying to keep things straight...
Excelsior?
15 - Jet in Columbus
Oh.......that explains a lot.
16 - P Marlowe
Matthew... "Nalle voted for Badnarik" Isn't he a minor player in Mordor? Of course very minor now since it was destroyed... Hard to put together an election game plan when your base of evil operations was torn asunder... The media won't leave that one alone...
Marlowe
"The fellow who decorated that room was not a man to let colors scare him. He probably wore a pimiento shirt, mulberry slacks, zebra shoes, and vermilion drawers with his initials on them in a nice Mandarin orange.", [Marlowe, The Long Goodbye]
17 - Clavos
Marlowe #8:
Whew!!
Thank you, your Eminence, I was SO worried my resentment of your attitude mught brand me as a criminal, or worse yet, a (gasp!) sinner! I'm so glad to find out that my stupidity and other shortcomings are only sad, not criminal or sinful.
Clavos
18 - P Marlowe
Clavos the Great... I've got to hand it to you - you're knocking yourself out to be the victim here!
Let me ask you... How do you feel about Nixon? Were you old enough to vote for him? I know people who, despite ALL the evidence of Watergate still stubornly, almost VIOLENTLY cling to their "ignorance". They still insist that it was ALL a conspiracy.
Are you such a person? Are you unable or UNWILLING to view the reality facing us?
I stated, repeatedly that there's certainly nothing to be ashamed of in having intially voted for the man in the first term. It is possible to VOTE for someone and be terribly disappointed in them later. I was disappointed with Clinton whom I voted for and Bush senior, whom I also voted for. The truth is I was IGNORANT each time - I didn't look CLOSELY ENOUGH.
So, what kind of person are you? I ask innocently enough here. I'd really like to know. It is critical that we start bridging this gap.
Marlowe
"An honest cop with a bad conscience always acts tough. So does a dishonest cop. So does almost anyone, including me.", [Marlowe, The Long Goodbye]
19 - Clavos
Marlowe, You just don't get it, do you? You must have a tin ear for language, or something.
Every word out of your keyboard just drips with the contempt and condescension you have for those who don't agree with your politics. It is that contempt to which I'm referring. From what I've seen, not only in your article, but in your comments as well, you cannot separate it from your ideas.
You mentioned shame in #8. The real shame to me is that your basically good idea, that of a rapprochement between opposing viewpoints and groups of voters would be good for the country, is a good one, but it's totally ruined by your presentation and attitude.
And that is truly a shame.
20 - Dave Nalle
You also might spend more time reading your own posts Mr. Nalle. They're in desperate need of overhauling...
So share your pointers. I'm eager to hear what brilliant insights you have for me.
In the short time I've been reading them I've been astounded by the Rube Goldberg philosophy you've displayed here. I've yet to see any attempt on your part to offer a way out of the mess we're facing.
I do love Rube Goldberg. He was a remarkably creative fellow. But when political solutions start to resemble his designs - as they too often do - it's time to go back and start over again.
As for my solutions to the 'mess we're facing', your mistake is in assuming that I think we are in some desperate mess than needs a desperate solution. I don't subscribe to the theory that we're in the dark days of total cultural and political darkness.
Sure, we have some issues to deal with, but most of them aren't the ones you'd be likely to single out, and most of them don't originate with the Bush administration. Sorry, I don't buy that line of bull.
We all are ignorant on some level. And given the mounting evidence of just how great a walking, talking diaster this administration is I would LIKE TO THINK you voted them into office OUT OF IGNORANCE and NOT (which would be far worse) KNOWING FULL WELL their true character.
As someone else pointed out, I didn't vote them into office at all. As far as the 'disaster' description, I'd put them more in the category of 'frustrating' or 'disappointing'. Most of the 'disaster' aspects are largely fabricated by the hyperbolists of the left.
PS. Has anyone asked you to step out from behind your bully pulpit? It isn't polite to hide behind it...
Come again, person posting under the assumed name of a fictional character.
Dave
21 - P Marlowe
Gee Clavos... I guess you're right... I had no idea that my stinging statement concerning the stunning stupidity of nearly half those polled, re: WMDs would evoke such an emotional response.
Damn! I did it again! I used the word STUPIDITY! And I probably wasn't thinking of the older definition of the word - i.e., someone who HAS the intelligence to reason something out but is too mentally lazy to do so...
I should have seen that my original post might elicit this kind of response, get people talking, at least a little. Sure those who consider themselves conservative or Republican or even Demo-publicans might initially get upset, but then with further discourse we would get past that...
And of course I should have realized that some, like Mr. N., LOVE to be offended and would sling a few nasty posts then retire to their corner to sulk...
Lord... I wish I could have seen all this coming before I wrote the article...
Clavos... Is THIS the kind of condescension you were referring to?
Probably, huh?
Marlowe
“I understand you are a private detective?"
"Yes.”
“I think you are a very stupid person. You look stupid. You are in a stupid business. And you came here on a stupid mission.”
“I get it,” I said. “I’m stupid. It sank in after a while.”
[Marlowe, Farwell My Lovely]
22 - P Marlowe
Dave... My name IS Marlowe. John Phillip Marlowe. And yes, I do live in Los Angeles.
23 - Dave Nalle
Well, at least the psychological torture inflicted on you by your parents explains a great deal about this post.
Dave
24 - Nancy
The problem is, there IS no reasoning with ignorance, because ignorance is blind to the fact that it IS ignorance, and in denial that it is ignorance. The ignorant still continue to insist that man never made it to the moon, in addition to believing in WMDs in Iraq, mainly because The President said there were, and they truly believe, in their ignorance, that The President (as long as he's GOP) is even more infallible than the pope. They're idiots, and there is no reasoning with them, because they're incapable of admitting they were ever wrong, just like their Fearless Leader, Dubya. Hmm...perhaps that's why they cling to him so blindly.
25 - JustOneMan
Marlowesbeef...this post is a spoof, right?
"This isn't a matter of being a democrat or a republican" its obvious that you are a blind Dumbocrat..you even gave us the funny dsclaimer--"Lord knows BOTH parties are fatally flawed"
Not once did you mention that members of your party have consistently voted to support most of the war actions and your poster boy John "I just found out Im Jewish!" Kerry voted for it before he voted against it...
[Edited] wake-up you guys lost the election and have lost touch with reality... this is WW III... its black and white no more gray... either you are with us or against us!
Its obvious what side you are on... [Edited]