Shiite cleric Al-Sadr asks his followers to oust U.S. forces in Iraq.
The powerful Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr says he wants to oust American forces from Iraq. According to a statement issued today, he's prepared to unleash his "guerrilla fighters to concentrate on pushing American forces out of the country."…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Dave Nalle
Any advocacy of guerilla warfare in La guerra de guerrillas was preconditioned on that war being progressive.
Good point, Les. Does MR think that Che would have supported the Contras? They were guerilla fighters too. MR is confusing her extremist anti-Americanism with Che's progressive anti-colonialism and they're not the same thing. The difference perhaps being that Che had some principles.
As for the capitalism of Islamic radicals, I think you're mistaking greed and self-interest for capitalism, which is a common mistake. They're not the same thing. They would gladly take wealth from others by force which is essentially countrary to capitalism, and they have no interest in building enterprises or a real capitalist economic structure.
And of course our reading of Che on guerilla warfare doesn't count because we read it in English instead of Spanish - just to head off one of MR's inevitable strawfilled arguments.
Dave
27 - Clavos
Am I the only who caught that mr called Les "right-wing"??? (#23)
28 - Les Slater
"Does MR think that Che would have supported the Contras?" I don't think so.
I think her mistake is that she somehow sees Muqtada al-Sadr as progressive. It's not a very sophisticated viewpoint. Che would see right through that.
29 - Les Slater
"Am I the only who caught that mr called Les "right-wing"???"
I saw it. It's about as sophisticated as calling Bush a fascist.
30 - troll
Les - the essential nature of the fascist state is that it lords it over both owners and workers ensuring a production environment free of overt class warfare
Bush - as the head of the federal government - is a fascist
rock on with your sophisticated self
31 - Les Slater
troll,
The U.S. government is a government the capitalist class. Bush is just the Chief Executive.
There has never been a fascist government that has allowed such freedom as we now have.
Les
32 - troll
Les - *There has never been a fascist government that has allowed such freedom as we now have.*
there's the power and beauty of modern fascism which does not have to be grotesque...all that it has to do is suppress the 'natural' inclinations of the classes to 'war' with each other
Italy lost WW2 but won the peace
33 - Clavos
troll says:
there's the power and beauty of modern fascism which does not have to be grotesque...all that it has to do is suppress the 'natural' inclinations of the classes to 'war' with each other
I think that remark is wrong on two counts troll:
First, I think you're trying to stretch the concept of fascism to fit your hypothesis. In the process you distort the definition of fascism into something it's not.
Second, Even if we accept your definition, the "inclinations of the classes to 'war' with each other" are, at this time and in this country, being fanned feverishly from within by those at both ends of the political spectrum who are intent on radically modifying our political system.
Thus, an argument can be made that those inclinations are NOT being supressed.
34 - RJ
"As Che said, Let there be two, three, four, one hundred al Sadrs."
Che Guevara is sooo fucking dead.
35 - RJ
"Can anyone name one so-called leader in the entire world who is rational, competent, and truthful?"
Dick Cheney? [ducks...]
36 - RJ
"I think they are fundamentally capitalists and only accidentally theocrats."
If Muqtada al-Sadr is only "accidentally" a theocrat, I'd hate to see somebody who was one on purpose!
37 - troll
Clavos - first: fascism was developed as a practical program in response to a working class on the verge of exploding in revolution in the late 1800s early 1900s...(if owners had not yielded the State power to reign in their excesses it would have been all over for them)
all of the other characteristics listed in other definitions of 'fascism' are not essential (although corporate organization might be essential as well - I'm not clear on that one)
second: the 'class warfare' that you see being fanned is bogus - I hear few voices calling for the expropriation of private property by workers or seriously advocating no holds barred laissez faire capitalism
38 - Les Slater
"If Muqtada al-Sadr is only "accidentally" a theocrat,..."
I should have said incidentally.
39 - Dave Nalle
troll, i think you're engaging in a trendy redefinition of fascism. I'm not buying it.
Dave
40 - Clavos
second: the 'class warfare' that you see being fanned is bogus
I disagree. We are being bombarded on a daily basis with "news" reports about the "earnings divide", and how the rich are getting richer while the poor get poorer, in every variation and permutation the mind of man can conceive of.
That's textbook class warfare tactics.
41 - Dave Nalle
There's a difference between real class warfare based on genuine oppression - which is the basic justification for Marxism - and the bogus manufactured class warfare which is cynically promoted by the left and the news media to stir up an artificial discontent which is ultimately against the best interests of the very people they work so hard to sell it to.
In a society with the high level of income mobility we still find in the US real class conflict is virtually impossible, because too many people can see the obvious fact that whatever benefits the enterprising class will benefit them as well if they work hard to advance themselves.
Dave
42 - troll
just my read on the history Dave...part the road we've traveled to present day socialism (which is not yet at odds with fascism - as in the all powerful State regulating the economic interaction of its citizens)
and not to worry Clavos - it's just those damned Dems looking to get votes...were poor folk actually to take action against private/State property they would be squashed like bugs - by our all powerful State - no matter which party was in power
that's the covenant
43 - Dave Nalle
I think before the all-powerful state got to them, their disgruntled neighbors would deal with them more informally.
Dave
44 - troll
ah yes...'enlightened vigilantism' - the next historically necessary stage of law enforcement and the makings of another off topic rant
45 - S.T.M
There is no genuine class warfare in America or in any other western democracy for that matter. Most are two-party systems where the gap between the haves and have nots mostly isn't that great - apart from those on the fringes at the very bottom end and those lapping at the cream at the top end.
I can hardly see the great unwashed of the proletariat rising up en masse to unseat the powers that be in the US.
What will happen is that there'll be a democratic vote and someone will be elected. If it it costs the high-end earning voters on the defeated side a couple of extra tax dollars a week to help those at the very bottom end, I'd hardly see that as the great triumph of the working class.
It's just called an election victory.
The same thing will happen here (in Australia) in the federal election later this year.
The real drama is going on in the middle east.
46 - Clavos
Hasn't this whole fascism discussion been off topic? And is "off topic" not allowed?
47 - troll
(Clavos - I was referring to my own off topic ranting)
48 - S.T.M
How can it be off-topic when all we've done is move the topic steadily to each next logical conclusion?
Know the story of my father's axe?
"I replaced the handle when it broke, and my brother replaced the head when it was blunt.
But it's still my father's axe."
49 - troll
by golly you're right Stan...those militias are engaged in vigilantism
50 - Clavos
More coffee...need more coffee.
Sorry, gents. Carry on...
51 - S.T.M
They're fu.king vigilantes all right.
52 - troll
though hardly enlightened - with all due respect to the Prophet may he rest in peace
53 - Dave Nalle
What will happen is that there'll be a democratic vote and someone will be elected. If it it costs the high-end earning voters on the defeated side a couple of extra tax dollars a week to help those at the very bottom end, I'd hardly see that as the great triumph of the working class.
And it's not. It's a great triumph for the povert pimps and panderers who keep the underclass loyal by bribing them with government checks and encouraging them never to seek to advance themselves by their own hard work and merit.
The real drama is going on in the middle east.
One has to wonder if the ongoing drama there is just contrived to distract us from things which impact us more directly.
Dave
54 - S.T.M
Forgive me for asking, but have I touched a raw nerve here somewhere??
55 - Clavos
Dave,
One has to wonder if the ongoing drama there is just contrived to distract us from things which impact us more directly.
I've wondered the same thing myself. My inclination, cynically, is to answer, "at least to some degree."
56 - S.T.M
Nah, George (bless 'im) thought he was on a fair-dinkum mission to cleanse the Earth of guys in black hats (not you Dave).
Lunatics flying planes into skyscrapers tends to have that kind of effect on leaders (of whatever calibre).
Perhaps we shouldn't forget how this whole sorry mess started, and perhaps we should also stop flagellating ourselves about whether it's right.
It is. It just could have been conducted a bit better. All that's happened is that we've ended up looking like bullies because that's how the loony left wants it portrayed. The real bullies are the ones who think it's OK to chop off people's heads with blunt knives and record it on video or blow the shit out of 15-year-old girls on holiday with their parents.
Fu.k 'em, I say.
I just heard on the news here tonight that Australia is sending another 300 special forces soldiers to fight the Taleban. Good on 'em. I hope the Taleban cops it fair up the blurter.
The whole lot of 'em, including their so-called brothers in Iraq, Iran and wherever else they hide out like rats in a sewer, are a pack of mongrel bastards.
57 - Christopher Rose
Clavos: Off topic is allowed.
STM: Fucking isn't censored so fuck all you want!
58 - moonraven
[Edited]
Of course Che did not say literally anything about Iraq--he has been dead for almost 40 years!
I was giving MY opinion, [Edited]--which is that anyone who tells you gringo fascist bullies to get the fuck out of his or her country has my FULL support.
You [Edited] have my full contempt.
59 - moonraven
Chris, Again you are a liar. I took you at your word and you deleted part of my post.
60 - Les Slater
moonraven,
The problem with your full support is that al-Sadr has an agenda which apparently you are not willing to see.
And again, please do not invoke the name of Che to support your naive political views.
Les
61 - Christopher Rose
moonraven, I took your word for it when you said you wouldn't interact with me anymore. All I did here was remove the offensive parts of your remark above. Furthermore, in my opinion, the power and flow of your words have been improved by my judicious editing.
Even though I am quite an adept liar, I very rarely do it as the problems outweigh the benefits and I much prefer the openness and power of simple honesty.
I suspect the person who would most support your position would be the one person you object to most strongly until now, your favourite bête noir, our own Dave Nalle.
62 - moonraven
Les, I will invoke whomever I damn please--whenever I damn feel like doing so.
As someone who lives part of the year in Bahrain, which has a Shiite majority, I am much more aware of a) the Middle East situation and b) how the Shiites fit into it, than you are.
63 - Les Slater
"As someone who lives part of the year in Bahrain, which has a Shiite majority, I am much more aware of a) the Middle East situation and b) how the Shiites fit into it, than you are."
You're just as puffed up [Edited. Try to set a good example, Les. Comments Editor] as when you wrote: "You wet-behind the ears right-wing jokers think you know more about Che than I do?"
64 - Dave Nalle
You know Les, you could BE a right-winger if you wanted to, and make Moonraven's comments true. After all many of your former comrades like William Kristol and Paul Wolfowitz have become righties and they got to keep their whole conquer the world Stalinist dream alive in the process.
Dave
65 - moonraven
You ARE wet-behind-the-ears right-wing jokers.
And you DO know nothing about Che.
Saying you read something that you haven't doesn't make it true.
66 - Les Slater
comments editor,
Would 'full of excrement' been more appropriate?
What's the difference?
Les
67 - moonraven
We folks with feathers have the habit of puffing them. It's part of our nature.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that I know probably 1000 times more than you do about the MIddle East--and I would not even consider calling myself an expert.
68 - Les Slater
It would not take much to know more about Che than you do. I do know a lot about Che.
I have read much and I know very well people that are now on a first name personal basis with people like Pombo and several others that knew Che personally.
69 - Mark Schannon
Dear Comments Editor:
As the author of this very minor piece that has generated an extraordinary amount of blather, much flame, and precious little light, do I have the right (constitutional or otherwise) to ban people from commenting on my posts.
I find when that bizarre person who knows everything about everthing since the beginning of time in every corner in the world (I don't even want to type her name...MR) starts up her engines, I lose interest in everything on the thread.
I know I have the ***power*** to block her, but have I the authority under the BC Constitution and Rules Book.
In Jameson Pax
70 - moonraven
Right.
And you know many people who are on a first name basis with the Easter Bunny, too.
What does that make you, an egg?
Which of the Che bios which came out 10 years ago for the 30th anniversary of his death (one of which is now reprinted with more information) do you conisder to be the best,and why?
71 - moonraven
Go for it, fascist Mark! Ban me. Make sure there is nothing following your inept little pieces that contradicts your point of view.
Do it NOW!
72 - Les Slater
I also have met Victor Dreke who was with Che in the Congo.
73 - Christopher Rose
Mark, in a word, no. Technically, you have the power, but only in theory I'm afraid. Anyway, she makes me laugh. No sane person could call you a fascist. She's like a secular Mary Reborn Revisited!
74 - Les Slater
You do nothing but display your ignorance by bringing up the Easter bunny. The bunny has nothing to do with this topic.
You are the one that called for a 1000 al-Sadrs. That IS related to this topic. But you are nothing but a reactionary if you stick to that 1000 al-Sadrs. He is a thug and calls on a war to drive out the U.S. between killing Suni civilians. He is especially vocal when he backed into a corner.
75 - moonraven
Les,
You did not respond to the question about Che bios. Can't do it? Credibility ZERO.
I met a lot of film people when I was living and working as a film critic in Santa Fe--does that make me a star, or an expert on their private lives. NO.
The Easter Bunny is very timely--Easter was 2 days ago, and the Bunny--to the best of my knowledge--is NOT REAL.
Just like your expertise on Che Guevara. Tell it to Regis Debray....