It's time to admit that our original goals in Iraq will not be achieved...
Francis Fukuyama has left the building. And now Bill Buckley has burned the building down. The house that Bush built - the "liberation" and "rebuilding" of Iraq into a stable, secular, pro-American, Western-style democracy - has been reduced to little more than charred embers. Whatever it was we were trying to accomplish in Iraq has failed.…
Article comments
176 - Christopher Rose
Tom: This is all a bit gung-ho for my tastes.
Firstly, it may be more appropriate for the USA to focus a little more on putting its own house in order (indeed, some serious maintenance is possibly overdue) before presuming to organise the world as it sees fit.
Although it would obviously be highly irresponsible to pull out of Iraq in its present condition, I remain unconvinced that the USA's pre-emotive action theory is useful or even prudent international politics.
I'm also unpersuaded that citing Korea (presumably you mean the southern part of that still fractured nation) and Taiwan as successful democracies is totally supporting your case.
Oh, one personal observation if I may, statements like "This is my last contribution to this debate" always make me picture a boy taking home his football just cos his side were losing the game...
177 - nitpicker
"Have America been in worse shape? Yes, would you have declare World War II a failure when most of America bases in the Pacific were overrun or bombed?"
WWII succeeded because virtually all Americans supported it.
Korea was a stalemate because many Americans wanted to forget it.
Vietnam was a failure bacause many Americans were against it.
Where are Americans now?
That will tell you what to expect in Iraq.
178 - ss
I've stayed out, but I just have to hop in now.
I love these moonbats who think the outcome of every conflict America gets into is primarily a question of our resolve. The sheer unabashed narcism on display is just plain breath taking.
I mean if we just shake our fists and wag our dicks long enough everyone has to submit to BoBo the dominate chimp, right.
Wrong.
Let me take this ridiculous 'tweener fantasy apart brick by brick...
Nitpiker:
We won WWII because it was a war of industrialized powers, and the US/USSR far outproduced Germany and Japan.
Korea was a stalemate because Mao was willing to send troops to keep us off his border, and we weren't willing to risk a nuclear war with the Soviets by attacking China directly.
Vietnam was a loser because we thought we could use it to stabalize the region, but the instability in the region made it impossible to stop N Vietnamese infiltration. We could have bombed Hanoi to the table, signed a peace treaty and left/'won', but the only difference (over there)would have been Cambodia would have fallen first then S vietnam, instead of the other way around.
Then alot of armchair generals amd similiar assholes could have bitched for years about how the 'damn politicians' squandered our victory in Vietnam, instead of bitching for years about the 'damn politicians' costing us our great honorable victory.
Now to Iraq.
If the Iraqis find a way to disband their militias, & keep the miltias out of the police and army, & work together and not be provoked into periodic outbursts of sectarian violence that could spin out of control if they spread to Iraqi security forces, & if the insurgents run out of bombs and no one resupplies them, & the Shia decide they like us better than Iran, & the UIA stems the corruption and lets rebuilding work everywhere not just the photo-op sectors, & if the UIA stays out of the courts and the schools, & the Iraqi economy starts growing faster than 2% and produces enough jobs to get unemployment under 25%, and Iraqi security can keep the salafists from setting up a permanent underground network...
And a few more &'s I can't think of right of the top off my head, if the Iraqis can do this, things will improve there, and maybe the plan will have worked.
If the Iraqis can't do it, everything we do over there is to keep the situation from getting worse, and we can't really leave until the Iraqis can do it.
They aren't doing it yet, or their economy would be improving at a much faster rate and Talabani wouldn't be asking us to stay as long as he needs us. It could be a while, and the American public isn't going to be at all happy about that, so just get used to the backlash.
You did this for your own egos, so you brought it on yourselves.
179 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
After the planes knocked down the World Trade Center, your country could have gone to war and fought the good fight.
It would hasve been a popular war, a war of vengeance against savages, and the price of oil and gas would have gone down precipitously in your nation as well as the rest of the world. Those pacifists who stubbornly opposed it would be far and few between.
But you didn't. And most people know in their gut the difference between good and evil. And thry know in their gut this war is evil. And that is why the support for it has evaporated.
180 - tommyd
Thinking of America's illegal and disgraceful invasion of Iraq, I'm reminded of an old Irish proverb which goes: "Things got bad, go bad".
The state of Iraq today is such a monumental failure that the controlled news media doens't even report much about things over there anymore. Can't blame them, in a way. It's just so gotdam depressing that I'm in shock the Pollyanna war cheerleaders can even defend this pile of shit anymore. How do y'all look at yourselves in the mirror?
181 - ss
BTW Nitpicker, that screed wasn't all aimed at you, obviously. You're explanation for why wars are won or lost does sound alot like the right wing, 'we should have stayed in 'Nam forever, that woulda showed those commies!' horseshit I heard constantly growing up, and I just had to set that record straight.
Peoples level of belief and tenacity are irrelevant, that's just a sports movie cliche. Wars are won and lost based on the situation. Our siuation in Iraq, very simply, is that we can't leave without making a bigger mess until the Iraqis get this right, and we can't make them get it right.
182 - nitpicker
1. WWII succeeded because virtually all Americans supported it.
Pearl Harbor galvanized America. Americans believed winning that war was a matter of life or death.
2. Korea was a stalemate because many Americans wanted to forget it.
Truman screwed up and Americans lost faith in him. The Chinese gave warning to Truman that if he didn't stop at the 38th parallel, China would enter the war. Truman tried to go to the Yalu River and the Chinese came in. It took two more years and a lot more dead Americans to get to an armistice. And we were back at the 38th parallel.
Americans did not believe winning that war was a matter of life or death.
3.Vietnam was a failure bacause many Americans were against it.
Lyndon (Lying)Johnson escalated the war in 1965 with the Bay of Tonkin lie. He continued to lie about the war until he was driven out.
4. Where is Bush in Iraq?
Go figure.
183 - Christopher Rose
Nitpicker: Consider your nits picked.
1. No way did virtually all Americans support WWII. In fact, the country very nearly chose to side with Germany cos it was winning and there was a very strong lobbying campaign by the Germans to win you over. It took the British PM seriously armtwisting your President that swung it, otherwise, we'd all be speaking German now.
2. Korea was a stalemate to provide the USA a way out. Otherwise you'd have lost.
3. Vietnam? the USA was defeated.
4. I dunno, but you can't win a wrong war and this one is as wrong as they come. Can't pull out now of course, but that's a separate issue.
184 - SHARK
heh. I wish I had the time to dig up all the arguments we had on Iraq, but fuck it: for the first time in your life, you're right, RJ:
IT DIDN'T WORK.
And now for the really nasty part: Bush and Co. will leave a political, foreign policy, environmental, and economic legacy that will haunt the American people & the world for the balance of the 21st century. History will look upon the Bush Administration as the WORST PRESIDENCY in American history.
And btw, don't argue with me on these points; I was right on Iraq and I'm right about this.
=========
Just for the record, kids:
I'm sure that with all the ads and about 50 to 60 "blog essays" PER DAY, Olsen and Co. are very successful, but in the process, this site has become a FUCKING MESS. It's horrible, unreadable, over-designed, and underedited.
TOO MUCH INFORMATION is as bad as NOT ENOUGH.
For my friends and fans, that's why SHARK rarely makes an appearance in the circled streets of Internet Hell known as Blogcritics. It's a sad affair -- watching an original, creative, handmade, do-it-yourself site become a behemoth of animated ads and blathering bullshit -- but welcome to America, right?
xxoo
S
PS: Dave Nalle, yer still wrong, and yer still a fucking ______.
185 - JP
SS - Good point, and the number of experts coming out to state that they suggested a much higher troop level to the administration in the first place (which was countered by Rumsfeld's vision of a small force winning with "shock and awe") smells like mismanagement to me.
186 - troll
I love Shark (platonic[ally] speaking)
troll
187 - Andy Marsh
Shark - do you ever say what you REALLY mean?
188 - Matthew T. Sussman
So the question is, how can we get more design into the site ASAP?
189 - Christopher Rose
I generally like hearing what Shark has to say but, with regard to BC, he's said all that before and seems content to carp and criticise but without actually making helpful suggestions.
Let's give the little sod a job, he can get paid twice what I get!
190 - Andy Marsh
You get paid???
191 - Christopher Rose
yeah, do you want to see how much I get?
192 - Andy Marsh
I was figuring you were offering a 2 x 0 kinda thing...
193 - gonzo marx
ok....on the Shark raised topic...
simplicity itself, shift the baseline page layout to frames, with the ads in a persistant outer frame that does not need to reload every time you change pages or even refresh the one you are looking at
similar tricks can be done with style sheets, but that is a bit more complex than simple tables and frames
implementing this simple html coding change woudl go a long way towards making pages load/refresh faster, because the static content ( the ads that are on EVERY page) would NOT have to reload into your browser EVERY time...just once when you first come to the site
that being said...
SHARK!!!!....i LUV ya maaAAAAaAAAaaan!
nuff said?
Excelsior!
194 - Christopher Rose
You got that right! I actually spend more time doing this than my actual "real life"...
195 - Bliffle
nit: "BTW, we are NOT losing the war over there; we ARE losing it here."
We seem to be losing it everywhere, but it is only lately becoming apparent here that we are losing.
196 - Christopher Rose
Well, I don't want distract this commentary from the author's topic any longer but I'd encourage anybody who cares at all about BC to chip in through a relevant article's comments cos there are massive changes coming down the pipe and NOW would be a great time to make any input.
197 - Bliffle
Christophe: "1. No way did virtually all Americans support WWII."
Quite so. Those of us who were actually alive then to experience it well remember that a popular American phrase then was "maybe the Germans can straighten out the mess in Europe." Our ordinary little American neighborhood was about evenly divided between German lovers and haters, as it was between Roosevelt lovers and haters.
The relentless glory-mongering of the last 60 years is truly appalling. My two brothers who fought in the Pacific, island to island, had utterly no notion of glory and were permanently damaged by the carnage and horror.
198 - WWII Vet
Ya'all got it wrong about WWII.
Once Pearl Harbor was bombed, there wasn't a dissenter to be found -- except a few Quaker types.
Before Pearl, it was a different story.
199 - MCH
"...there are massive changes coming down the pipe and NOW would be a great time..."
pipe? Isn't that supposed to be "pike"...?
200 - RogerMDillon
MCH, are you the comments-editor editor? heh heh
201 - Christopher Rose
MCH: Now come on, how could changes come down a pike? It's a fish, innit?!
Naah, mate, trust me, it's a pipe, a big polished pyrex glass tube of excellence feeding into the BC bowl of goodness.
Gonna help us stoke it?
202 - webster
On the other hand, there is another definition for :pike".
"A mid-air position in sports such as diving and gymnastics in which the athlete bends to touch the feet or grab the calves or back of the thighs while keeping the legs straight."
BTW, some believe "pike" can mean "fun in a San Frencisco bathhouse."
203 - MCH
ok, ok...well, out here in Montana it's pike, ie, "Look down the pike"...'course, we're kinda backards out here...
204 - Christopher Rose
MCH: I sure wouldn't want to look down a pike, dead or alive, but whatever passes for entertainment up there in the big country.
As to "kinda backards", we're talking Yogi Bear territory, right? Yogi was one of my childhood role models and I've always wanted to visit Jellystone/Yellowstone Park. That's probably because I'm smarter than the average bear!
205 - nitpicker
That remains to be proven.
206 - MCH
Actually Chris, if you ever do get out here, make sure you see Glacier Park...much more fascinating than Yellowstone, and doesn't stink near as bad, either...
207 - MCH
"RJ - I read your artical and then went looking for what I knew I'd find...a chicken hawk argument from MCH (diva). The more things change, the more they stay the same."
- Andy Marsh
Speaking of cyber-stalking...
208 - LOG1K
I started reading posts/blogs regarding Iraq and the war beacause I'm planning to join the Marines; And I have to say(suppressing my personal opinions and emotions) this is by far(5hrs of surfing the web) the most honest, Realistic, and neutral blog regarding such controversial topic. After rading it, no matter what side you were on, you get this feeling of truth and reality. Credit to whom deserves it.
209 - RJ Elliott
Why pulling out now would be the worst possible decision.
210 - MCH
It's still not too late to TRY to enlist, Elliott.
211 - RJ Elliott
This most recent NIE states the same things I've been saying for literally years:
"If coalition forces were withdrawn rapidly, ... we judge that this almost certainly would lead to a significant increase in the scale and scope of sectarian conflict in Iraq"
...
"If such a rapid withdrawal were to take place, we judge that the [Iraqi Security Force] would be unlikely to survive as a non-sectarian national institution; neighboring countries ... might intervene openly in the conflict; massive civilian casualties"
...
al Qaeda terrorist group in Iraq would try to "use parts of the country -- particularly al-Anbar province -- to plan increased attacks in and outside of Iraq."
...
Turkey could launch a military incursion if there were no U.S. or allied troops to block Kurdish attempts to control northern Iraq
...
the report stated that Iranian support for insurgents intensifies the conflict, and that Syria is providing safe haven for insurgents and has failed to stop the flow of terrorists into Iraq.