To answer your question: the *world* might be safer if he was still in power. He was being contained, and it looks like his weapons program was nonexistent. Now it's a fucking free-for-all over there.
The *US* would definitely be safer, if you ask me.
Iraqis might ultimately be better off in the long run. Time will tell.
Hussein was a bad guy, but who knows what's next for Iraq?
They just might be OLD weapons, RJ. You're trying way too hard for these to be the big smoking gun.
Remember, Bill Clinton, your pal, tried to weasel around using technicalities and by parsing the language to a ridiculous degree. Now you're doing the same thing.
One or two weapons don't make a program. Or a stockpile. Or a cache.
Honey, the point of looking for WMDs was to find LOTS and LOTS of them to destroy them so that they could no longer threaten us. The goal wasn't to go over there to find one or two just to say we did. Or so we were told.
It's not a fucking scavenger hunt where you just run around like a kook and find one of each obscure item on a list.
BHW and Hal- Would you give the president so much credit as to say that if he has erred in judging Hussein's WMDs, he has erred on the side of caution?
That seems irrelevant to my question, but he is certainly loathe to admit mistakes. Any little thing he admits to screwing up will be blown up as big as his enemies can sell. Fear of this type of amplification is one classic temptation to executive dishonesty.
Nonetheless, I think an honest person would have to say that Bush appears to be acting honorably and reasonably in Iraq. If he miscalculated the situation, I'd rather he squish an ugly dictator from (only a slight) overabundance of caution rather than letting one go.
A couple of verified cannisters of gas used in attacks probably don't fully vindicate the original claims about WMDs from before the war. However, a little bit is a LOT more than NONE.
That's why WMDs are taken so seriously. Even just a few cannisters of some of the uglier stuff in the wrong hands can do tremendous damage.
Even just a modest amount of WMD type weapons goes a significant part of the way towards justifying the war.
We can't afford to screw around with this type of stuff. It has to be headed off at the pass if at all possible.
38 -
SFC Ski
May 18, 2004 at 5:22 am
Natalie, yourpacifism is slipping; " it(war, and the use of sarin gas, in this case) would only be fair if someone invaded and occupied your country" Thanks, two military personnel were injured in this particualr case. Guess it is easier to cheer for the other team and disavow your own countrymen (in other thread you have writeen, "I don't believe in patriotism" and " They are not my soldiers" ). I supported your pacifist ideology when it appeared to be universal, but I can see now that it is not.
39 -
Shark
May 18, 2004 at 9:42 am
It could easily be argued that 'erring on the side of caution' would have ruled out an invasion of Iraq.
Invading Iraq on questionable intelligence and with a paucity of international support sounds like the least cautious route we could have taken.
But once again, when it comes to the not-a-divider President, his supporters continue to see the sky as green and the grass as blue.
PS: RJ, sometimes you're right, and I tend to agree with your cache of responses:
1) Bush lied
2) Bush is a facist
40 -
Sandra Smallson
May 18, 2004 at 10:09 am
What I have concluded after several run-ins..You can never satisfy the ANTIWAR brigade. Even if a whole stash of Anthrax, Nerve gas et al was found within the next 30 minutes..It would not be enough.
They will always tell you or imply-Only Co-alition bombs can kill.. The Iraqis were living peacefully and joyously in their homes..Living long lives and we went in there to OCCUPY them and force our religion and culture on them. We are terrorists too because we are killing innocents and Sadaam only killed the guilty...
Look, there is nothing you can say to satisfy them. Not the hundreds of Iraqis who lined up all those months ago to say those who did not support the War should have walked a mile in their shoes under Sadaam's rule..NOTHING can convince them.
Ofcourse the Iraqis want to rule themselves. We are encountering problems but many of the problems are being caused by the Syrians, Palestinians and Iranians. Most of the insurgents are not Iraqi..but the ANTIWAR brigade would rather believe that the average Iraqi person loathes the co-alition, hates them for invading their country and wants them out immediately.
I think what is sad is how the ANTIWAR brigade are becoming apologists. I can not understand why you would be understanding of attacks against the co-alition. I can not understand why anyone would encourage the paranoia of many in the Middle east that we are all about their oil or trying to force Christianity or Judaism on them. I can not understand why you would encourage them to labour under the misconception that we are on equal footing with them if we go to bomb Sadr and unfortunately kill 3 kids while they come and kill thousands of civilians to get their point across.
It is impossible to understand why anybody with civilised upbringing could understand or explain away these types of barbaric actions.
I mean, if you believe this is the sort of culture you are from, what sort of person does it make you to remain in your country? Freedom of movement. Move to Saudi Arabia or Iran. It's like one of the Islamic fundamentalists always inciting hatred and violence against the British. Burning the Union Jack. Yet, when they tried to deport him, he got a Lawyer(Legal aid ofcourse) and he is still in this Country fighting deportation. I wonder what would have happened to him if he had burnt the Iraqi flag under Sadaam's rule and incited hatred against Iraqis while on Iraqi soil,..We all know what would have happened. We needn't speculate. All in the name of projecting yourselves as peace loving people or Anti-bushites you find a way to explain or understand this type of culture or mentality. It's really a shame and a pity.
I am sure the girl who was brutally raped, repeatedly over a long period by Qusay and Ude would love to swap places with one of the anti-war females. You go and walk a mile in her shoes. Then come back and tell her that the Co-alition should not have entered Iraq to eliminate these barbarians.
Nothing comes easy. Bosnia Herzegovina is not heaven on earth but the Ethnic Albanians are not living in fear that today is the day, their doors will be pushed open so they be slaughtered all in the name of ethnic cleansing. People died to be able to stop that happening.
Imagine life under the Taliban or Sadaam ? Iraqi TV was Sadaam TV, talk about manipulation of the people. They were NOT allowed to watch TV in Afghanistan. Now, I can call Bush a moron or Blair an idiot and still keep my head. I won't change it for anything. I won't take it for granted either and I am not silly enough to criticise my culture unnecessarily just to show the Muslims that I understand their plight.
The barbarians are fundamentalists. The average intelligent Muslim is going about their daily activities. It is the fundamentalists that carry out barbaric acts and it is the uneducated foolish Muslims that are ready to pick up Spear even before Osama opens his mouth, spewing anti-western propaganda they came up with in their dementia, because they know no better.
It is not an insult but a fact that a majority of Muslims, especially in the Middle East are not enlightened. Everything is state controlled. If they knew better they would do better. It's okay to sympathise with the loss of innocents but when you take that a step further and start becoming an apologist for barbaric actions or start trying to understand the mentality of barbarians , you have truly lost the plot.
41 -
Shark
May 18, 2004 at 11:57 am
FINANCIAL TIMES excerpt:
"A senior coalition source told the BBC "the round does not signal the discovery of weapons of mass destruction or the escalation of insurgent activity." In fact, the round dates back twenty years to the Iran-Iraq war.
"Garth Whitty, a former United Nations chemical weapons inspector," reports the Financial Times, "likened the find to the 12 chemical warheads - 11 of them empty - discovered by UN inspectors at a storage depot south of Baghdad two months before last year's war started. The US and the UN determined those mustard shells dated to pre-Gulf war stocks and were therefore not evidence of an ongoing chemical weapons programme."
Hal- Would you give the president so much credit as to say that if he has erred in judging Hussein's WMDs, he has erred on the side of caution?
No.
To do so would be to say that the administration got the US into this war accidentally.
With all the evidence now out there, it is clear that it was done through a process of deliberate lies and misdirection to achieve a long-standing goal of a particular group of ideologues.
"With all the evidence now out there, it is clear that it was done through a process of deliberate lies and misdirection to achieve a long-standing goal of a particular group of ideologues."
You're right, Clinton lied to us throughout the 90's over this crap. So did Congress (surprisingly enough even Teddy and Kerry). I say we get rid of them all, rotten liars!!!
45 -
Sandra Smallson
May 18, 2004 at 3:19 pm
Nazaar Joudi's hand was chopped off because he was dealing in Gold, a commodity that Sadaam associated with the Dollar he despised. Qasim Kadim. Baasim Al Fahdly..all had their hands chopped off. They even had to PAY for it. £30..The anaesthetic lasated just 30 minutes. These amputations were carried out while they were conscious. All in all, 60 men had their arms amputated and were thrown on the streets to die. Apparently the Americans met 7 surviving members. Paul Bremer authorised the US Airforce to fly these men to Frankfurt and they have all been fixed with robotic limbs. They have now been taken to Texas where local families put them up until rooms were arranged at the Mariott hotel for them.
The men now in America were shocked at the few American soldiers abusing prisoners because they said those are not the Americans they know. The Amputees are shocked how in America you are free to share your thoughts and say what you feel without fear of reprisal.
One of them ends the article with saying "The most important thing is Freedom. Freedom is worth any sacrifice"......Info from "The Sun Uk Newspaper"
Now, this is just one example of the hundreds if not thousands of humanitarian things the co-alition have done and are doing in Iraq. Have we heard of this? Are the Newspapers or Newscasters repeating it over and over? NO. I always say, the naysayers are often the loudest.
Tell these 7 men, or the families of the 63 that died after having their arms amputated that you believe the co-alition are terrorists and we should not have gone into Iraq to occupy them and force our ideas on them.
It truly is a matter of, until you have walked a mile in the shoes of someone who lived under Sadaams rule, don't tell them that the war is unjustified because you have not been shown sacks of nerve gas.
"What I have concluded after several run-ins..You can never satisfy the ANTIWAR brigade. Even if a whole stash of Anthrax, Nerve gas et al was found within the next 30 minutes..It would not be enough."
Absolutely correct, at least when it comes to pacifists. That's why those of us who are pacifists are pacifists -- we are against all violence, all war, all torture, all abuse, etc. You will never convince us that the violence you support is justified.
48 -
Sandra Smallson
May 18, 2004 at 3:45 pm
I have no problem with pacifists Ms Davis. As long as you are against all those terrible things on both sides and not try to justify or explain the acts of any side. That is your prerogative. It is apologists I can not tolerate.
I am not sure it is an issue of whether the violence I support is justified. In my view, it's about necessity. It was/is necessary so I support it.
I will never convince you that the violence I support is justified or necessary. I don't care about convincing you Ms Davis. You will never convince me that to do nothing at all while mass numbers of innocent people are being deprived of the fundamental right to life and freedom is the way to go because one abhores violence. The very violence that is going on while we do nothing. You too, shouldn't care about convincing me. All's well that ends well:)
49 -
boomcrashbaby
May 18, 2004 at 3:46 pm
If two old ladies are trying to cross the street, and in one case someone helps the old lady by making sure traffic is stopped, and in the other case, someone pushes the old lady in front of a bus, it's no surprise which will get news coverage.
Everybody knows that there are good American soldiers. Doing what you are supposed to do is not as newsworthy as doing what you are not supposed to do.
What's sad is the assumption that those who are anti-occupation are 'apologizing' to terrorists. Nothing could be further from the truth. If anything they are apologizing to the innocent civilians who fall under the label 'collateral damage'. (If it can even be considered an apology, as they are not the ones to blame.)
One thing I have decided is that I am no longer going to refer to myself as anti-war but anti-occupation instead. I am for the war against terror, I am against what has happened and what is happening in Iraq. Conservatives and right-wing fanatics have yet co-opted another phrase. Now, if you say you are anti-war (and you mean the war in Iraq), the assumption is that you want to cuddle with terrorism.
50 -
Shark
May 18, 2004 at 5:57 pm
Sandi, thanks for the bedtime story. Not only did I almost squirt a few, but I fell right to sleep.
Type on, babe, I'm an insomniac.
51 -
sheri
May 18, 2004 at 8:54 pm
Thanks for the info RJ. I've been curious why more hasn't been said about some of it.
"The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax; enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn't accounted for that material. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed it. The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin… Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent… U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them, despite Iraq's recent declaration denying their existence… From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs. These are designed to produce germ warfare agents and can be moved from place to a place to evade inspectors."
Now all of that, along with nuclear mushroom clouds and long distance drones, has turned out to be ONE 1980's-era SHELL WITH POSSIBLE SARIN RESIDUE (even Rumsfeld admits that) after more than a year of searching.
Not exactly an "A-Ha!" moment, folks.
But keep drinkin' that Kool-Aid.
54 -
Shark
May 19, 2004 at 9:01 pm
"...From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq..."
Info, no doubt, from the recently "fired" and highly discredited opportunistic liar Chalabi.
(Who's yer buddy, Bush?)
55 -
sheri
May 19, 2004 at 9:15 pm
I was told shortly after the war began, that as WMD were found,to expect a wave of denial and excuses to sweep it under the rug as being of no significance. I was warned that conspiracy theories would abound,and there would be next to no media coverage. Hmmmm.
56 -
boomcrashbaby
May 19, 2004 at 11:13 pm
Why haven't Bush or Rumsfeld come forward and say 'aha! Here are the stockpiles of WMD we told you about! They are hidden in the cap of this little bomb!' Hmmmmm. Maybe they know something we don't.
57 -
sheri
May 20, 2004 at 9:31 am
What about the 20 tons of chemicals, (VX, Sarin and 70 others), trucked in to Jordan from Syria by confessed Al -Qaida members? These were captured Iraqi Al-Qaida members, trained in Iraq.
58 -
Shark
May 20, 2004 at 9:44 am
Sheri: "I was told shortly after the war began, that as WMD were found, to expect a wave of denial and excuses.. as being of no significance. ...that conspiracy theories would abound, and...next to no media coverage."
That was a part of that load of 20 tons of bullshit the Bush administration and their right-wing propaganda poopers shipped into your head from ports unknown.
59 -
sheri
May 20, 2004 at 10:00 am
Was it? You just did exactly what I was told you would do...completely sweep away facts.No interest whatsoever, not even curiousity.
No interest in the defected Syrian journalist, dying of cancer, who named three sites where chemicals are buried in Syria,all three confirmed by Israeli intelligence.
60 -
sheri
May 20, 2004 at 10:16 am
Come on Shark, no one can deliver a conspiracy theory, punched up real nicely with insults and derogatory name calling like you can, I'm waiting.
61 -
Lomu
May 20, 2004 at 10:16 am
What took you so long, Sheri? The old boy Shark never deals in facts. He knows stuff and all of it is bullshit. You'll save yourself a whole load of time if you read his commentary strictly for entertainment purposes only. Just when Blogcritics starts to make far too much sense, I always look for a post from Shark.
A lesson I learned in my first few weeks on blogcritics. Time hasn't erased it from my mind.
62 -
sheri
May 20, 2004 at 10:38 am
Lomu, I'm thinking that he has reported back to headquarters, and is preparing his material....
sheri: What about the 20 tons of chemicals, (VX, Sarin and 70 others), trucked in to Jordan from Syria by confessed Al -Qaida members? These were captured Iraqi Al-Qaida members, trained in Iraq.
Do you have source links for that claim?
I may have just missed it, but I haven't heard Rumsfeld or Wolfowitz talking about it.
"Air Force Airmen 1st Class Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 21, of Riviera Beach, Fla.; assigned to the 17th Security Forces Squadron, Goodfellows Air Force Base, Texas; was killed Sept. 28, when an improvised explosive device detonated near her convoy vehicle near Camp Bucca, Iraq."
This beautiful, brave young woman paid the ultimate sacrifice for our country, because she believed that actions speak louder than words. "She stood up for her beliefs and made everyone around her aware of those beliefs," said Ms. Jacobson's grandmother, Sondra Millmon-Cosimano. link
66 -
MCH
Mar 01, 2006 at 1:17 pm
Another courageous female soldier is killed in Iraq.
Army 1st Lt. Jaime L. Campbell, 25, of Ephrata, Wash.; assigned to the 1st Battalion, 207th Aviation Regiment, Alaska Army National Guard, Anchorage, Alaska.; was killed Jan. 7, 2006, when the UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter she was riding in crashed near Tal Afar, Iraq.
Also killed in the crash were 11 other American soldiers.
"Jaime (Krausse) Campbell was a selfless and energetic woman, according to relatives and friends who describe her always wearing a smile on her face.
First Lt. Campbell had been living at a Fairbanks post with her husband. Army Capt. Sam Campbell is also serving in Iraq, and will fly back with his wife's body, said her mother, Miki Krausse of Ephrata, Wash., in a phone interview.
Jaime was the Washington State Rodeo Queen in 1998, the same year she graduated from Ephrata High School and served as student body president.
She joined the Washington Army National Guard midway through her studies at Washington State University to help pay for school, and graduated with a degree in interior design in 2003.
Jaime and her mother e-mailed each other every day. She also was close with her father, an Army command sergeant major who just returned from Iraq himself. Jeff Krausse said he spent five days with his daughter two months ago during a short break. His last image is of Jaime in the pilot's seat when she flew him back to his post.
"I never got to give her a hug goodbye," her dad said, his voice breaking.
The last time Miki Krausse heard Jaime's voice was when she called to wish everyone a happy New Year. "She said she loved us and missed us and couldn't wait to come home," Jaime's mother said. "She always told us she was safe, that she could take care of herself. She said not to worry about her."
www.ourwarheroes.net/
Ms. Campbell is the 46th female soldier killed in Iraq, to date.
67 -
MCH
Jun 28, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Honor the Fallen
Another U.S. female soldier is killed in Iraq:
"Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class Jaime S. Jaenke 29, of Bay City, Wis.; assigned to Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 25, Fort McCoy, Wis.; killed June 5 as a result of enemy action when her Humvee was struck by an improvised explosive device in Anbar province, Iraq. The incident also resulted in the death of Petty Officer 1st Class Gary Rovinski."
- www.militarycity.com/valor
"She was buried in Alden, leaving behind a 9-year-old daughter and other family who described the Navy reservist as a caring woman.
“Jaime is without a doubt the kind of person the world will miss,” said Tifani Eisentrager, Jaenke’s cousin. “Jaime’s life, without a doubt, was taken too soon. We mourn her death and will always remember her fondly.” Jaenke was activated in January and had been serving as a paramedic in Iraq for less than three months before her death. She was assigned to Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 25 at Fort McCoy, Wis. Her unit was involved in reconstructing the country, building infrastructure such as schools and wells.
Jaenke had been volunteering as an emergency medical technician in Ellsworth, Wis., before moving back to Iowa Falls in July to run the family’s horse training facility. She also enrolled in the nursing program at Ellsworth Community College in Iowa Falls."
- Associated Press, Waterloo-Cedar Falls Courier
This brings the total to 51 American women killed in Iraq.
68 -
MCH
Oct 20, 2006 at 2:10 pm
CALDWELL: BAGHDAD PLAN HASN'T WORKED
By Christopher Bodeen, AP Writer
10/20/06
BAGHDAD, Iraq " The U.S. military acknowledged Thursday that its two-month drive to crush insurgent and militia violence in the Iraqi capital had fallen short, calling the raging bloodshed disheartening and saying it was rethinking its strategy to rein in gunmen, torturers and bombers.
The admission by military spokesman Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell came as car bombs, mortar fire and shootings around the country killed at least 66 people and wounded 175. The dead included the Anbar province police commander, slain by gunmen who burst into his home in Ramadi.
The U.S. military also announced the deaths of three U.S. troops in fighting, raising the toll for American troops in October to 74. The month is on course to be the deadliest for U.S. forces in nearly two years.
The high death tolls this month for both Americans and Iraqis have pushed the long and unpopular war back into the public eye in the United States, forcing the Bush administration and the military to address difficult questions in the final weeks of the midterm U.S. election campaign.
Vice President Dick Cheney said the United States was not looking for a way out of Iraq. "I know what the president thinks. I know what I think. And we’re not looking for an exit strategy. We’re looking for victory," Cheney said in an interview posted on Time magazine’s Web site Thursday.
Caldwell told reporters the U.S.-Iraqi bid to crush violence in the capital had not delivered the desired results, with attacks in Baghdad rising by 22 percent in the first three weeks of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan when compared to the three previous weeks.
"In Baghdad, Operation Together Forward has made a difference in the focus areas but has not met our overall expectations in sustaining a reduction in the level of violence," Caldwell said at a news briefing. He was referring to the security sweep, which began Aug. 7 with the introduction of an additional 12,000 U.S. and Iraqi troops into Baghdad.
"The violence is indeed disheartening," he said. Caldwell said U.S. troops over the last week were forced to launch a second sweep of southern Baghdad’s Dora district after a surge in sectarian attacks. At least eight people, including four policemen, were killed in bombings and shootings in Dora on Thursday, police said.
"We find the insurgent elements, the extremists are in fact punching back hard, they’re trying to get back into those areas," Caldwell said.
He said security plans were being reviewed for the sprawling, low-rise capital of 6 million people, where rival Shiite and Sunni Muslim sects live in uneasy proximity to each other and the bodies of victims of sectarian death squads are found dumped on the streets each morning.
"It’s clear that the conditions under which we started are probably not the same today and so it does require some modifications of the plan," Caldwell said.
His gloomy assessment came amid tensions between the United States and the nearly 5-month-old government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.
Frustration over al-Maliki’s failure to crack down on sectarian groups could be exacerbated by revelations that the prime minister ordered U.S. troops to release Mazin al-Sa’edi, a top organizer in western Baghdad for radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
Caldwell said al-Sa’edi was freed after being detained Wednesday with five aides for suspected involvement in Shiite violence. Al-Sadr’s al-Mahdi Army has been blamed for sporadic attacks and for inspiring groups kidnapping and killing Sunnis.
Article comments
26 - bhw
To answer your question: the *world* might be safer if he was still in power. He was being contained, and it looks like his weapons program was nonexistent. Now it's a fucking free-for-all over there.
The *US* would definitely be safer, if you ask me.
Iraqis might ultimately be better off in the long run. Time will tell.
Hussein was a bad guy, but who knows what's next for Iraq?
27 - RJ Elliott
"..it looks like his weapons program was nonexistent"
Except, you know, those weapons we found so recently...
28 - RJ Elliott
Serious Question!
Was one of the reasons for going to war:
A) Saddam was currently developing new WMDs
or
B) Saddam still had some of his old WMDs
I always thought it was the latter...
29 - bhw
They just might be OLD weapons, RJ. You're trying way too hard for these to be the big smoking gun.
Remember, Bill Clinton, your pal, tried to weasel around using technicalities and by parsing the language to a ridiculous degree. Now you're doing the same thing.
One or two weapons don't make a program. Or a stockpile. Or a cache.
30 - bhw
Both: he allegedly had an active program AND stockpiles.
He said he dismantled the program and the stockpiles in the 1990s.
31 - RJ Elliott
"One or two weapons don't make a program. Or a stockpile. Or a cache."
One or two weapons are not manufactured singularly. They are manufactured en masse.
The others are around, waiting to be used by the terrorists or found by the Coalition.
Saddam had WMDs. Face it.
32 - bhw
Yes, he had them once. But he didn't seem to have them in the recent past.
Face it.
33 - Hal Pawluk
It's like a roach: If you see one in your kitchen, there are doubtless hundreds more that you don't see. Same with WMDs.
Invalid analogy.
But funny - I can just see these weapons in a tunnel screwing themselves to death as they reproduce to build up those stockpiles ...
34 - bhw
WMDs found, check
Honey, the point of looking for WMDs was to find LOTS and LOTS of them to destroy them so that they could no longer threaten us. The goal wasn't to go over there to find one or two just to say we did. Or so we were told.
It's not a fucking scavenger hunt where you just run around like a kook and find one of each obscure item on a list.
35 - Al Barger
BHW and Hal- Would you give the president so much credit as to say that if he has erred in judging Hussein's WMDs, he has erred on the side of caution?
36 - bhw
Al, will Bush ever admit that he erred?
37 - Al Barger
That seems irrelevant to my question, but he is certainly loathe to admit mistakes. Any little thing he admits to screwing up will be blown up as big as his enemies can sell. Fear of this type of amplification is one classic temptation to executive dishonesty.
Nonetheless, I think an honest person would have to say that Bush appears to be acting honorably and reasonably in Iraq. If he miscalculated the situation, I'd rather he squish an ugly dictator from (only a slight) overabundance of caution rather than letting one go.
A couple of verified cannisters of gas used in attacks probably don't fully vindicate the original claims about WMDs from before the war. However, a little bit is a LOT more than NONE.
That's why WMDs are taken so seriously. Even just a few cannisters of some of the uglier stuff in the wrong hands can do tremendous damage.
Even just a modest amount of WMD type weapons goes a significant part of the way towards justifying the war.
We can't afford to screw around with this type of stuff. It has to be headed off at the pass if at all possible.
38 - SFC Ski
Natalie, yourpacifism is slipping; " it(war, and the use of sarin gas, in this case) would only be fair if someone invaded and occupied your country" Thanks, two military personnel were injured in this particualr case. Guess it is easier to cheer for the other team and disavow your own countrymen (in other thread you have writeen, "I don't believe in patriotism" and " They are not my soldiers" ). I supported your pacifist ideology when it appeared to be universal, but I can see now that it is not.
39 - Shark
It could easily be argued that 'erring on the side of caution' would have ruled out an invasion of Iraq.
Invading Iraq on questionable intelligence and with a paucity of international support sounds like the least cautious route we could have taken.
But once again, when it comes to the not-a-divider President, his supporters continue to see the sky as green and the grass as blue.
PS: RJ, sometimes you're right, and I tend to agree with your cache of responses:
1) Bush lied
2) Bush is a facist
40 - Sandra Smallson
What I have concluded after several run-ins..You can never satisfy the ANTIWAR brigade. Even if a whole stash of Anthrax, Nerve gas et al was found within the next 30 minutes..It would not be enough.
They will always tell you or imply-Only Co-alition bombs can kill.. The Iraqis were living peacefully and joyously in their homes..Living long lives and we went in there to OCCUPY them and force our religion and culture on them. We are terrorists too because we are killing innocents and Sadaam only killed the guilty...
Look, there is nothing you can say to satisfy them. Not the hundreds of Iraqis who lined up all those months ago to say those who did not support the War should have walked a mile in their shoes under Sadaam's rule..NOTHING can convince them.
Ofcourse the Iraqis want to rule themselves. We are encountering problems but many of the problems are being caused by the Syrians, Palestinians and Iranians. Most of the insurgents are not Iraqi..but the ANTIWAR brigade would rather believe that the average Iraqi person loathes the co-alition, hates them for invading their country and wants them out immediately.
I think what is sad is how the ANTIWAR brigade are becoming apologists. I can not understand why you would be understanding of attacks against the co-alition. I can not understand why anyone would encourage the paranoia of many in the Middle east that we are all about their oil or trying to force Christianity or Judaism on them. I can not understand why you would encourage them to labour under the misconception that we are on equal footing with them if we go to bomb Sadr and unfortunately kill 3 kids while they come and kill thousands of civilians to get their point across.
It is impossible to understand why anybody with civilised upbringing could understand or explain away these types of barbaric actions.
I mean, if you believe this is the sort of culture you are from, what sort of person does it make you to remain in your country? Freedom of movement. Move to Saudi Arabia or Iran. It's like one of the Islamic fundamentalists always inciting hatred and violence against the British. Burning the Union Jack. Yet, when they tried to deport him, he got a Lawyer(Legal aid ofcourse) and he is still in this Country fighting deportation. I wonder what would have happened to him if he had burnt the Iraqi flag under Sadaam's rule and incited hatred against Iraqis while on Iraqi soil,..We all know what would have happened. We needn't speculate. All in the name of projecting yourselves as peace loving people or Anti-bushites you find a way to explain or understand this type of culture or mentality. It's really a shame and a pity.
I am sure the girl who was brutally raped, repeatedly over a long period by Qusay and Ude would love to swap places with one of the anti-war females. You go and walk a mile in her shoes. Then come back and tell her that the Co-alition should not have entered Iraq to eliminate these barbarians.
Nothing comes easy. Bosnia Herzegovina is not heaven on earth but the Ethnic Albanians are not living in fear that today is the day, their doors will be pushed open so they be slaughtered all in the name of ethnic cleansing. People died to be able to stop that happening.
Imagine life under the Taliban or Sadaam ? Iraqi TV was Sadaam TV, talk about manipulation of the people. They were NOT allowed to watch TV in Afghanistan. Now, I can call Bush a moron or Blair an idiot and still keep my head. I won't change it for anything. I won't take it for granted either and I am not silly enough to criticise my culture unnecessarily just to show the Muslims that I understand their plight.
The barbarians are fundamentalists. The average intelligent Muslim is going about their daily activities. It is the fundamentalists that carry out barbaric acts and it is the uneducated foolish Muslims that are ready to pick up Spear even before Osama opens his mouth, spewing anti-western propaganda they came up with in their dementia, because they know no better.
It is not an insult but a fact that a majority of Muslims, especially in the Middle East are not enlightened. Everything is state controlled. If they knew better they would do better. It's okay to sympathise with the loss of innocents but when you take that a step further and start becoming an apologist for barbaric actions or start trying to understand the mentality of barbarians , you have truly lost the plot.
41 - Shark
FINANCIAL TIMES excerpt:
"A senior coalition source told the BBC "the round does not signal the discovery of weapons of mass destruction or the escalation of insurgent activity." In fact, the round dates back twenty years to the Iran-Iraq war.
"Garth Whitty, a former United Nations chemical weapons inspector," reports the Financial Times, "likened the find to the 12 chemical warheads - 11 of them empty - discovered by UN inspectors at a storage depot south of Baghdad two months before last year's war started. The US and the UN determined those mustard shells dated to pre-Gulf war stocks and were therefore not evidence of an ongoing chemical weapons programme."
full news report
42 - Hal Pawluk
Hal- Would you give the president so much credit as to say that if he has erred in judging Hussein's WMDs, he has erred on the side of caution?
No.
To do so would be to say that the administration got the US into this war accidentally.
With all the evidence now out there, it is clear that it was done through a process of deliberate lies and misdirection to achieve a long-standing goal of a particular group of ideologues.
43 - Ms. Tek
They are still finding shells from WWI and WWII.
So the fuck what?
44 - Debbie
"With all the evidence now out there, it is clear that it was done through a process of deliberate lies and misdirection to achieve a long-standing goal of a particular group of ideologues."
You're right, Clinton lied to us throughout the 90's over this crap. So did Congress (surprisingly enough even Teddy and Kerry). I say we get rid of them all, rotten liars!!!
45 - Sandra Smallson
Nazaar Joudi's hand was chopped off because he was dealing in Gold, a commodity that Sadaam associated with the Dollar he despised. Qasim Kadim. Baasim Al Fahdly..all had their hands chopped off. They even had to PAY for it. £30..The anaesthetic lasated just 30 minutes. These amputations were carried out while they were conscious. All in all, 60 men had their arms amputated and were thrown on the streets to die. Apparently the Americans met 7 surviving members. Paul Bremer authorised the US Airforce to fly these men to Frankfurt and they have all been fixed with robotic limbs. They have now been taken to Texas where local families put them up until rooms were arranged at the Mariott hotel for them.
The men now in America were shocked at the few American soldiers abusing prisoners because they said those are not the Americans they know. The Amputees are shocked how in America you are free to share your thoughts and say what you feel without fear of reprisal.
One of them ends the article with saying "The most important thing is Freedom. Freedom is worth any sacrifice"......Info from "The Sun Uk Newspaper"
Now, this is just one example of the hundreds if not thousands of humanitarian things the co-alition have done and are doing in Iraq. Have we heard of this? Are the Newspapers or Newscasters repeating it over and over? NO. I always say, the naysayers are often the loudest.
Tell these 7 men, or the families of the 63 that died after having their arms amputated that you believe the co-alition are terrorists and we should not have gone into Iraq to occupy them and force our ideas on them.
It truly is a matter of, until you have walked a mile in the shoes of someone who lived under Sadaams rule, don't tell them that the war is unjustified because you have not been shown sacks of nerve gas.
46 - Sandra Smallson
63 changed to 53...
47 - Natalie Davis
"What I have concluded after several run-ins..You can never satisfy the ANTIWAR brigade. Even if a whole stash of Anthrax, Nerve gas et al was found within the next 30 minutes..It would not be enough."
Absolutely correct, at least when it comes to pacifists. That's why those of us who are pacifists are pacifists -- we are against all violence, all war, all torture, all abuse, etc. You will never convince us that the violence you support is justified.
48 - Sandra Smallson
I have no problem with pacifists Ms Davis. As long as you are against all those terrible things on both sides and not try to justify or explain the acts of any side. That is your prerogative. It is apologists I can not tolerate.
I am not sure it is an issue of whether the violence I support is justified. In my view, it's about necessity. It was/is necessary so I support it.
I will never convince you that the violence I support is justified or necessary. I don't care about convincing you Ms Davis. You will never convince me that to do nothing at all while mass numbers of innocent people are being deprived of the fundamental right to life and freedom is the way to go because one abhores violence. The very violence that is going on while we do nothing. You too, shouldn't care about convincing me. All's well that ends well:)
49 - boomcrashbaby
If two old ladies are trying to cross the street, and in one case someone helps the old lady by making sure traffic is stopped, and in the other case, someone pushes the old lady in front of a bus, it's no surprise which will get news coverage.
Everybody knows that there are good American soldiers. Doing what you are supposed to do is not as newsworthy as doing what you are not supposed to do.
What's sad is the assumption that those who are anti-occupation are 'apologizing' to terrorists. Nothing could be further from the truth. If anything they are apologizing to the innocent civilians who fall under the label 'collateral damage'. (If it can even be considered an apology, as they are not the ones to blame.)
One thing I have decided is that I am no longer going to refer to myself as anti-war but anti-occupation instead. I am for the war against terror, I am against what has happened and what is happening in Iraq. Conservatives and right-wing fanatics have yet co-opted another phrase. Now, if you say you are anti-war (and you mean the war in Iraq), the assumption is that you want to cuddle with terrorism.
50 - Shark
Sandi, thanks for the bedtime story. Not only did I almost squirt a few, but I fell right to sleep.
Type on, babe, I'm an insomniac.
51 - sheri
Thanks for the info RJ. I've been curious why more hasn't been said about some of it.
52 - Hal Pawluk
No, Debbie.
You still seem to be in denial about all the lies and deceptions of Bush, Cheney, Libby, Feith, Wolfowitz, Perle, et al.
53 - felix
From Bush's 2003 State of the Union speech:
"The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax; enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn't accounted for that material. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed it. The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin… Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent… U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them, despite Iraq's recent declaration denying their existence… From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs. These are designed to produce germ warfare agents and can be moved from place to a place to evade inspectors."
Now all of that, along with nuclear mushroom clouds and long distance drones, has turned out to be ONE 1980's-era SHELL WITH POSSIBLE SARIN RESIDUE (even Rumsfeld admits that) after more than a year of searching.
Not exactly an "A-Ha!" moment, folks.
But keep drinkin' that Kool-Aid.
54 - Shark
"...From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq..."
Info, no doubt, from the recently "fired" and highly discredited opportunistic liar Chalabi.
(Who's yer buddy, Bush?)
55 - sheri
I was told shortly after the war began, that as WMD were found,to expect a wave of denial and excuses to sweep it under the rug as being of no significance. I was warned that conspiracy theories would abound,and there would be next to no media coverage. Hmmmm.
56 - boomcrashbaby
Why haven't Bush or Rumsfeld come forward and say 'aha! Here are the stockpiles of WMD we told you about! They are hidden in the cap of this little bomb!' Hmmmmm. Maybe they know something we don't.
57 - sheri
What about the 20 tons of chemicals, (VX, Sarin and 70 others), trucked in to Jordan from Syria by confessed Al -Qaida members? These were captured Iraqi Al-Qaida members, trained in Iraq.
58 - Shark
Sheri: "I was told shortly after the war began, that as WMD were found, to expect a wave of denial and excuses.. as being of no significance. ...that conspiracy theories would abound, and...next to no media coverage."
That was a part of that load of 20 tons of bullshit the Bush administration and their right-wing propaganda poopers shipped into your head from ports unknown.
59 - sheri
Was it? You just did exactly what I was told you would do...completely sweep away facts.No interest whatsoever, not even curiousity.
No interest in the defected Syrian journalist, dying of cancer, who named three sites where chemicals are buried in Syria,all three confirmed by Israeli intelligence.
60 - sheri
Come on Shark, no one can deliver a conspiracy theory, punched up real nicely with insults and derogatory name calling like you can, I'm waiting.
61 - Lomu
What took you so long, Sheri? The old boy Shark never deals in facts. He knows stuff and all of it is bullshit. You'll save yourself a whole load of time if you read his commentary strictly for entertainment purposes only. Just when Blogcritics starts to make far too much sense, I always look for a post from Shark.
A lesson I learned in my first few weeks on blogcritics. Time hasn't erased it from my mind.
62 - sheri
Lomu, I'm thinking that he has reported back to headquarters, and is preparing his material....
....Roger and out.
63 - Sandra Smallson
LOL. Well said Sheri & Lomu:)
64 - Hal Pawluk
sheri: What about the 20 tons of chemicals, (VX, Sarin and 70 others), trucked in to Jordan from Syria by confessed Al -Qaida members? These were captured Iraqi Al-Qaida members, trained in Iraq.
Do you have source links for that claim?
I may have just missed it, but I haven't heard Rumsfeld or Wolfowitz talking about it.
65 - MCH
Honor the Fallen
"Air Force Airmen 1st Class Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 21, of Riviera Beach, Fla.; assigned to the 17th Security Forces Squadron, Goodfellows Air Force Base, Texas; was killed Sept. 28, when an improvised explosive device detonated near her convoy vehicle near Camp Bucca, Iraq."
This beautiful, brave young woman paid the ultimate sacrifice for our country, because she believed that actions speak louder than words. "She stood up for her beliefs and made everyone around her aware of those beliefs," said Ms. Jacobson's grandmother, Sondra Millmon-Cosimano.
link
66 - MCH
Another courageous female soldier is killed in Iraq.
Army 1st Lt. Jaime L. Campbell, 25, of Ephrata, Wash.; assigned to the 1st Battalion, 207th Aviation Regiment, Alaska Army National Guard, Anchorage, Alaska.; was killed Jan. 7, 2006, when the UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter she was riding in crashed near Tal Afar, Iraq.
Also killed in the crash were 11 other American soldiers.
"Jaime (Krausse) Campbell was a selfless and energetic woman, according to relatives and friends who describe her always wearing a smile on her face.
First Lt. Campbell had been living at a Fairbanks post with her husband. Army Capt. Sam Campbell is also serving in Iraq, and will fly back with his wife's body, said her mother, Miki Krausse of Ephrata, Wash., in a phone interview.
Jaime was the Washington State Rodeo Queen in 1998, the same year she graduated from Ephrata High School and served as student body president.
She joined the Washington Army National Guard midway through her studies at Washington State University to help pay for school, and graduated with a degree in interior design in 2003.
Jaime and her mother e-mailed each other every day. She also was close with her father, an Army command sergeant major who just returned from Iraq himself. Jeff Krausse said he spent five days with his daughter two months ago during a short break. His last image is of Jaime in the pilot's seat when she flew him back to his post.
"I never got to give her a hug goodbye," her dad said, his voice breaking.
The last time Miki Krausse heard Jaime's voice was when she called to wish everyone a happy New Year. "She said she loved us and missed us and couldn't wait to come home," Jaime's mother said. "She always told us she was safe, that she could take care of herself. She said not to worry about her."
www.ourwarheroes.net/
Ms. Campbell is the 46th female soldier killed in Iraq, to date.
67 - MCH
Honor the Fallen
Another U.S. female soldier is killed in Iraq:
"Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class Jaime S. Jaenke 29, of Bay City, Wis.; assigned to Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 25, Fort McCoy, Wis.; killed June 5 as a result of enemy action when her Humvee was struck by an improvised explosive device in Anbar province, Iraq. The incident also resulted in the death of Petty Officer 1st Class Gary Rovinski."
- www.militarycity.com/valor
"She was buried in Alden, leaving behind a 9-year-old daughter and other family who described the Navy reservist as a caring woman.
“Jaime is without a doubt the kind of person the world will miss,” said Tifani Eisentrager, Jaenke’s cousin. “Jaime’s life, without a doubt, was taken too soon. We mourn her death and will always remember her fondly.” Jaenke was activated in January and had been serving as a paramedic in Iraq for less than three months before her death. She was assigned to Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 25 at Fort McCoy, Wis. Her unit was involved in reconstructing the country, building infrastructure such as schools and wells.
Jaenke had been volunteering as an emergency medical technician in Ellsworth, Wis., before moving back to Iowa Falls in July to run the family’s horse training facility. She also enrolled in the nursing program at Ellsworth Community College in Iowa Falls."
- Associated Press, Waterloo-Cedar Falls Courier
This brings the total to 51 American women killed in Iraq.
68 - MCH
CALDWELL: BAGHDAD PLAN HASN'T WORKED
By Christopher Bodeen, AP Writer
10/20/06
BAGHDAD, Iraq " The U.S. military acknowledged Thursday that its two-month drive to crush insurgent and militia violence in the Iraqi capital had fallen short, calling the raging bloodshed disheartening and saying it was rethinking its strategy to rein in gunmen, torturers and bombers.
The admission by military spokesman Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell came as car bombs, mortar fire and shootings around the country killed at least 66 people and wounded 175. The dead included the Anbar province police commander, slain by gunmen who burst into his home in Ramadi.
The U.S. military also announced the deaths of three U.S. troops in fighting, raising the toll for American troops in October to 74. The month is on course to be the deadliest for U.S. forces in nearly two years.
The high death tolls this month for both Americans and Iraqis have pushed the long and unpopular war back into the public eye in the United States, forcing the Bush administration and the military to address difficult questions in the final weeks of the midterm U.S. election campaign.
Vice President Dick Cheney said the United States was not looking for a way out of Iraq. "I know what the president thinks. I know what I think. And we’re not looking for an exit strategy. We’re looking for victory," Cheney said in an interview posted on Time magazine’s Web site Thursday.
Caldwell told reporters the U.S.-Iraqi bid to crush violence in the capital had not delivered the desired results, with attacks in Baghdad rising by 22 percent in the first three weeks of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan when compared to the three previous weeks.
"In Baghdad, Operation Together Forward has made a difference in the focus areas but has not met our overall expectations in sustaining a reduction in the level of violence," Caldwell said at a news briefing. He was referring to the security sweep, which began Aug. 7 with the introduction of an additional 12,000 U.S. and Iraqi troops into Baghdad.
"The violence is indeed disheartening," he said. Caldwell said U.S. troops over the last week were forced to launch a second sweep of southern Baghdad’s Dora district after a surge in sectarian attacks. At least eight people, including four policemen, were killed in bombings and shootings in Dora on Thursday, police said.
"We find the insurgent elements, the extremists are in fact punching back hard, they’re trying to get back into those areas," Caldwell said.
He said security plans were being reviewed for the sprawling, low-rise capital of 6 million people, where rival Shiite and Sunni Muslim sects live in uneasy proximity to each other and the bodies of victims of sectarian death squads are found dumped on the streets each morning.
"It’s clear that the conditions under which we started are probably not the same today and so it does require some modifications of the plan," Caldwell said.
His gloomy assessment came amid tensions between the United States and the nearly 5-month-old government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.
Frustration over al-Maliki’s failure to crack down on sectarian groups could be exacerbated by revelations that the prime minister ordered U.S. troops to release Mazin al-Sa’edi, a top organizer in western Baghdad for radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
Caldwell said al-Sa’edi was freed after being detained Wednesday with five aides for suspected involvement in Shiite violence. Al-Sadr’s al-Mahdi Army has been blamed for sporadic attacks and for inspiring groups kidnapping and killing Sunnis.
69 - rj
Still popping in every few months with your random troll-bait, I see...
70 - Billie Bob
George Bush is a piece of shit, and a terrorist. Why hasn't he been hung?