Bye-bye, Neocon dreamers. And good riddance to you wingnuts, too.
Well, if those f-ing Israelis & Palestinians & Hamas & Hezbollah & Syrians & Iranians & Lebanese aren't at it again.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Iran-backed Hezbollah Nails The Coffin Shut On U.S. Neocon Dreams – A Quick Analysis - Comments Page 2
Article comments
26 - Adam Ash
Dave:
You seem to want to restrict the neocons to the Leo Straussian intellectuals -- Bill Kristol, Francis Fukuyama, etc.
The hardcore neocons are the policy-makers who signed on to PNAC -- and they include Cheney and Rumfeld and Condi.
Powell was the only non-neocon in any position of power in the administration, and he was quickly isolated by Cheney and Rumsfeld -- and cruelly so, since they got him to shill for the war at the UN, and made him consequently so ashamed of himself, he's counted himself out of any politics for good.
Thus are the good driven out by the bad currency of this 'orrible administration. Bremer gets a medal, Powell is hanging his head in shame in his boudoir.
27 - Sanjay
Adam writes:
Sanjay:
I don't know what Darfur has to do with any of this. Darfur is an African problem, and one day Africa will be able to take care of its own problems. Already South Africa is quietly going around solving many problems in Africa -- it's just not robust enough to attend to Darfur as well.
Don't you see the ridiculous hypocrisy in your statement?? Darfur is an example of a human rights catastrophe, and your statement above shows that your moral outrage is only selectively triggered, depending on which ethnic groups are involved.
My point is that your neo-liberalism is very selective in its sympathies. Why drag South Africa into this? They're not some continental superpower, and Darfur is quite a distance away from them. Even if it was within their reach, why would you apply a double-standard on human rights and say, "Lebanese Dying, Let's Get Mad! Darfur Genocide, Yawn, No Big Deal!"
I find you Neo-Libs to be a very ethnically partisan lot. If you saw 2 guys of different ethnicity gunned down in the street in front of you, you'd run to aid the guy with the ethnicity you liked, and would leave the other one to bleed in the street.
That's not liberalism. That's not credible. Whatever you are, you're certainly not a classical liberal. I think a new descriptor has to be coined: The Neo-Lib.
28 - Adam Ash
Sanjay:
Calm down. Where did I say "Lebanese dying, let's get mad!" I called both them AND Israel a bunch of f-ing whatnots.
The f-ing Israelites and the f-ing Hamasraelites will be killing each other like crazy for many years to come, and I weep for both of them, because they're both a bunch of anti-Semitic anti-Palestianian f-upped zealots.
But their problem is their problem. One reason I think Israel over-reacts these days is because the kill ratio used to be a 1,000 to 1 in their favor, and these days it's more like 10 to 1 in their favor, and this scares them shitless -- because now they have a much tougher job than before, since they have to sacrifice so many more Israelis to get back to a kill ratio of 1,000 to 1.
I wasn't mad at anybody in my post except the neocons, who landed us in this war (along with their patsy Bush). All conservatives should be mad at the neocons, because they've hijacked the conservative movement and ruined it, as Patrick Buchanan claims in the book I recommend. The GOP, which thought it would become a majority party for time immemorial, is about to take a big dirty bath in November, and they've only got one group to blame -- the damn neocons who suckered them and the country into a stupid war.
29 - Dave Nalle
You do realize that if given the chance Buchanan would have hijacked the GOP in a different and possibly even stupider direction, right?
Dave
30 - Sanjay
Dave, Buchanan's various flaws and prejudices are well known, but what's less well-known are the particular flaws and prejudices that he DOESN'T suffer from.
He's accused of being a Euro-centrist in some ways, but in other ways he's willing to challenge Euro-centrism, such as the notion that Americans should become beasts of burden for Europe or Hessian-type mercenaries to fight Europe's various interminable ancient blood-feuds. As soon as one brings up these Buchananisms, then the Buchanan critics get unhappy, since some in the anti-Buchanan crowd are specificially against him because they do indeed want the US to become a vassal-state of Europe.
31 - Sanjay
Adam, you're trying to morally equate Israel with Hamas and Hezbollah based on events from 1948 or 1967. You're not even looking at all the concessions made by the Israelis since Barak onwards. And in retrospect, those concessions were quite foolish, since the Pals and Hezbollah gobbled them up greedily while mouthing platitudes, and yet having the full intent to pounce on Israel later on.
The violence we are seeing between Israelis and Palestinians in particular has run unabated right since the time of one event -- Sharon visiting the Wailing Wall.
You do remember that little incident, don't you?
Sharon went to visit the Wall, and suddenly the Arabs started screaming and rioting and saying the entire Oslo Peace Accords were now off.
For them to do that over the visit of one man, shows how little they value peace.
32 - Dave Nalle
Buchanan is very easy to understand. He is in favor of western civilization, which some on the left perceive as eurocentric, but he's an isolationist, which means he doesn't want us to engage with the rest of the world at all, including Europe.
The complaints you raise about him are ones generally raised against him by the left. Those on the right have entirely different complaints having a lot more to do with his rather socialistic beliefs in the area of domestic policy.
Dave
33 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Adam,
I'm sorry to say, your article doesn't make a whit of sense. I realize you've put a pox on all of our houses here, and that's nice. It just doesn't interest me. You should read the over-intellectualized strainings of the idiots at Haaretz. They just fools, but try and strive for their low level before trying to write an intelligent piece on this neck of the woods.
I'm surprised that Dave Nalle, whom I don't necessarily agree with, but who knows a lot more about this neighborhood than you do, even condescended to comment on your article.
34 - gonzo marx
gld to *see* you are still well, Ruvy...
when you get a chance, take a look at comment #7(which i re-posted in one of your threads), and if you would...share your Thoughts on such an analysis
meanwhile...be safe, my best Wishes for you and yours ...and may all Hope for a quick end to the Conflict, with the minimum loss of Innocents
Excelsior?
35 - Adam Ash
Sanjay:
You're absolutely right that I morally equate Israel and the Palestinians. The poor bastards are fighting over the same scrap of land, since they both live there. Some day they'll have their two-state solution, but until then the poor Palestinians will have to slave away for the Israelis and depend on handouts from everyone else, since they're basically fucked for all time and the Israelis got their act together a long time ago.
Fortunately for the Israelis, the entire race of Arabs are fucked for a few more decades because they adhere to a religion which still hasn't had its Enlightenment, and as a bunch of tribes ruled by warlords, the Arabs wouldn't understand democracy even if you tried to force it upon them with a gun stuck up their behinds, as we're finding out in Iraq.
But watch out for Iran, Israel. When Iran's troglodyte Mullah theocrats are all dead in 30 years time, and the new generation takes over, and Iran is a working democracy at last -- they're a half-assed one now -- AND when Iran is a nuclear power, too ... Then the Israelis will meet their equals in the Iranians, who are a little more civilized than the Arabs, because they are, after all, not Arabs, but Persians.
Then we'll have another Pakistan-India standoff, because both Israel and Iran will be nuclear. But hopefully by then Israel will have made its peace with Palestine, and all will be well at last.
But don't get me started on Sharon. The man was an unmitigated disaster for Israel, from the original Lebanon adventure on, and he finally woke up at last to his folly and pulled out of Gaza, and was prevented from becoming a peacemaker/statesman by a stroke.
The dwarfs that are following him don't seem to know what they're doing. We should all hope that a new Rabin will arise from Israel's ranks. I'm a great believer in the one-man theory of history. Mandela saved South Africa. Israel needs their Mandela, and Palestine needs theirs, and until they both get their respective Gandhis, they'll be at each other's throats like the zenophobic assholes they've both become, jumpy at each other's shadows.
As for you and Dave Nalle and Pat Buchanan, the fact that Nalle accuses Buchanan of socialist beliefs is just another instance of how ideologically crazed the conservatives in the US have become lately.
36 - Adam Ash
Ruvy:
I'm always prepared to cut you a whole lot of slack because you are on the ground in Jerusalem, and you've lived in the US I believe, but I will say that I do know something of your neighborhood, because in my neighborhood of South Africa we white Afrikaners made peace with the black Xhosas, so I know it can be done -- you Israelis can make peace with the Palestinians.
You just have a heckuva lot of growing up to do, like we Afrikaners had to do. It ain't easy, Ruvy, and the Arabs are a bunch of arch-anti-Semites from way back, but it can be done.
I wish you all the good luck in the world: may you live to see the peace between Arab and Jew.
37 - Sanjay
Adam, how to automatically assume that an enlightenment is coming? It's certainly not going to come unless there is support for enlightened self-criticism amongst Muslims themselves. Enlightenment isn't simply just going to descend from the heavens, like a prophet on a winged steed.
Enlightenment for Islam doesn't have to be decades off, if our own myopic liberals would stop trying to protectively embrace Islamist xenophobia. Our own liberals are merely acting to undermine the principles of liberalism.
38 - Adam Ash
Sanjay:
I think Iran is already undergoing an Enlightenment. The teenagers there are kissing each other in the street, and want to be Americans. If you took the mullahs away, Iranians wouid be a lot more like the Israelis than any of the other Arabs are.
Remember, right after 9/11, the young Iranians held candle-lit vigils for us Americans. And elsewhere, in Indonesia and other places outside darkest Arabia, the Muslims are getting more enlightened every day. Eventually it'll all rub off on the Arabs; they can't fight modernism forever. Their women will enlighten them. There are a lot more feminists amongst the Arabs than we are aware of.
39 - gonzo marx
a bit on the side discussion of Enlightenment...
imo, the conditions of Enlightenment, on a societal level, tend to show up as an expanding portion fo the Population in Question becomes more literate, and is also exposed to outside writings and cultures
this tends to force examination and evaluation, which then opens up avenues of Thought and mental Exploration, (in culture, science, art...on all fronts) which then challenges the blind dogma and fanatical adherance to the authoritarian "religious leaders"...rather than the Lessons and Principles delineated in whatever root "scripture" is held close...
as more and more Muslims begin to become educated outside of wahabist schools, or at the feet of authoritarian religious figures...more and more Minds will open up....begin to Question, Explore and Discover...
thus..Enlightenment of the People, and a Renaisance of Culture
just my one sixth billionths of the world's Opinion....yor mileage may vary
Excelsior?
40 - Sanjay
Adam, don't make me laugh. I have Iranian friends, and they tell me the political repression in Iran is as bad as ever. Like Beijing and Pyongyang, the Ayatollahs have learned the lessons of every fallen dictator they've watched on CNN. The Ayatollahs quickly paralyzed and stonewalled Khatami, rather than letting him become a Gorbachev. Furthermore, the whole reason why Ahmedinejad is suddenly loudly screeching about nuclear weapons and incinerating Israel, is to create an external distraction that will divert the people at home from chafing under govt repression.
That's why nutty govts cannot be allowed to get nukes. You cannot treat them on par with normal democratic govts, as if you're the Star Trek Federation practicing the Prime Directive, because sufficiently shaky and unhealthy regimes have a nasty habit of making their internal mess spill over to the outside.
So if Ahmedinejad is waving around nuclear threats like some hormonal teenager, are you simply going to dismiss that as amusingly silly jabber?
Look, we're talking about the ability to incinerate millions of people, and until that actually happens, some people will stupidly try to laugh it off.
Tell me, does any remotely mature or responsible national leader just casually scream about nuking people? Is that funny or unserious to you?
How do we even know that nuclear deterrence will work against madmen who believe they'll be meeting more virgins in heaven if they hit us all with the big one?
Nah, how about you go found your own country, and live in it according to these principles you love so much. Then we'll see how quickly you come running back crying after your wife and kids are raped, maimed and murdered as a direct result of your naivete.
41 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Adam,
I'd forgotten that you lived in South Africa. It appears I need to cut you some slack. I have a good friend who is an Afrikaner and who is attempting to return home from the Netherlands to start a business. I hope the Almighty blesses his hand with success, but I do wonder at his wisdom.
I've spoken with other emigrants from South Africa (who've come to Israel) and it appears that the peace that you've made with the Xhosas and the Zulus and the other people of your land means that if you're a white man you face a color bar, as the other nations in you country attempt to catch up to the whites who are a couple of centuries ahead of everyone else materially.
You've been very lucky to have had a saint for a leader like Nelson Mandela, and you've been lucky that an extremist did not cut him down. But I feel compelled to warn you to turn your eyes north to see what could happen to the white minority in South Africa.
We Jews are not a minority here. We form two thirds of the population. Others, who stupidly rattle on about "apartheid Israel" manage to overlook that point.
The reason that the white regime in South Africa had to yield was not from apartheid - though that policy certainly excerbated things a great deal - it was the untenable position of trying to rule a population four times greater than yours without giving them citizenship rights.
42 - Sanjay
Adam, even if Mandela and Mbeki aren't rabid like the Islamists, please look at Mugabe nearby, and recognize what non-performing ideologies can result in. Hamas and Hezbollah can't deliver ordinary basic governance for their own people on a daily basis. This means they will automatically look for a diversionary scapegoat. Remember, only a year ago Hezbollah were protesting AGAINST Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon.
43 - MCH
"While we may have killed civilians as part of a military campaign or as collateral damage, we try to avoid doing so whenever possible."
- Dave Nalle
What's this "we" shit, Nalle? When are you going to stop trying to align with those braver than yourself?
44 - Dave Nalle
I realize you don't consider yourself part of the United States, MCH - presumably you're a sovereign nation all by yourself - but when I talk about 'we' that's because I take shared responsibility for whatever my nation does, because I'm part of it. I vote in the elections which put the guys in office who sent our soldiers off to war, so I bear responsibility for the results. You choose not to accept that responsibility, and that's your problem and your disgrace.
Dave
45 - Adam Ash
Ruvy:
Thank you for your words. I am pretty certain that the white minority in SA will survive, and in fact there will be more and more interbreeding as time goes by and South Africa will end up coffee-colored. As it is, Afrikaners are now doing business all over Africa. Africa is being wired for cable all over by former racist Afrikaners who now see opportunity in those places that used to scare them.
I soncerely hope your friend succeeds back in his homeland.
I don't know what Israel can do about the deep-seated anti-Semitism in the Arad world, that may have been there even without the Palestinian issue. You will have to wait for the Arabs to experience their Enlightenment, and that could another 30 to 40 years minimum.
Sanjay:
While the mullahs are running Iran at present, they will soon all be dead, because they are old. The big question to ask is: have they been successful at recruting young mullahs to keep their theocracy in place after they're dead? I wonder if anyone knows?
I thought the reason Hezbollah and Hamas are popular in their communities is because, unlike corrupt governments, they actually do deliver charity and education and other goverrnance for their own people on a daily basis. Of course, they also deliver militia-style suicide bombing, rabid anti-Semitism, etc. and that is another story.
46 - gonzo marx
Adam sez...
*I thought the reason Hezbollah and Hamas are popular in their communities is because, unlike corrupt governments, they actually do deliver charity and education and other goverrnance for their own people on a daily basis.*
this is also my Understanding...from a good distance away, of course...but i do have a couple of sources in the region, and my Astonishment at the Hamas electoral victory was explained to me in just that way....that unlike the PA under Arafat, Hamas actually got many things done on the street, and thus gained in popularity
also, that both of those organizations are sectioned apart...the militia is a different structure from the administration portions...the problems appear to be rising from the top down in the militant factions...hence the rocket attacks
as i said, no good Answers here that are readily apparent...the Insanity flowers in the desert, watered by the blood of Innocents on all sides, grown from the seeds of irrational hate and zealotry
it will only get worse for now
Excelsior?
47 - Sanjay
Adam, do you really think that the Mullahs will simply die out from old age? They didn't die with Khomeini, they didn't die out across all the previous centuries. They left their lines of succession active. When one Ayatollah dies, his successor simply takes over. Did we see N.Korea's dictatorship die with Kim Il Sung? Are we seeing Egypt's dictatorship fade out as Hosni Mubarak gets older? Did Syria's dictatorship die with Hafez Assad? Dictatorships are never a one-man act, there are lots of toadies to be kept fed, and it's not in their interest to see the gravy train die with dad. Your perspective is extremely naive, and based on very flimsy assumptions. That's not a good way to plan for the future.
48 - Sanjay
Adam, what governance are Hamas and Hezbollah giving? They're merely bringing war by engaging in terrorist provocations. Hezbollah is entirely Iran-funded, that's where their money comes from. The tradeoff to that is they are Iran's flunkies and will do what their Ayatollah paymasters tell them to. As you know, the Ayatollahs do not have a peaceful agenda, and would like to see Israel completely wiped off the map.
49 - MCH
"I take shared responsibility for whatever my nation does, because I'm part of it. I vote in the elections which put the guys in office who sent our soldiers off to war, so I bear responsibility for the results. You choose not to accept that responsibility, and that's your problem and your disgrace."
- Dave Nalle
I chose to put my responsibilty into action by enlisting and serving where ordered during time of war, Nalle.
The fact that you compare writing macho war-speak and voting to the horrors of combat is a disgrace to the memory of the sacrifices of our soldiers.
50 - Dave Nalle
It's all in your mind. Enjoy it. I look forward to the examples of my 'macho war-speak' which I asked you for several weeks ago. Interesting how they're not forthcoming.
I chose to put my responsibilty into action by enlisting and serving where ordered during time of war, Nalle.
As I understand it from your past statements you enlisted in the Navy to avoid being drafted in the army, rather like John Kerry who you seem to idolize. But I'd have done the same thing if I was 3 years older.
Dave
51 - RJ Elliott
MCH played billiards and softball in Hawaii during the Vietnam War, and was paid by the US taxpayer to do this, yet he has the gall to belittle others for not "sacrificing" for their country...
He's also an "anonymous" one-note, leftist, cyber-stalking troll with absolutely nothing novel or interesting to add to the conversation, ANY conversation...
But enough about his relative good points... :-/
52 - gonzo marx
don't hold back RJ...don't keep it bottled up inside
tell us how you truly feel....deep inside
have an Oprah Moment with Dr. Phil and share
you'll feel better after some closure
Excelsior?
53 - Sanjay
"Excelsior"? Gonzo, you wouldn't happen to be intimately related to Stan Lee of Marvel Comics fame, would you?
54 - gonzo marx
Sanjay get a cookie!
/golfclap
here ya go...------------------ @
and some coffee too?
-----------------------> c|_|
enjoy!
Excelsior?
55 - duane
Oh, really? I thought it was because you were a New Yorker, and were proud of your state motto.
Are you related to Lee?
56 - jack e. jett
i say fuck em all. the isrealis,hamas, syria, iraq....they freaking bunch. we have our on shit to deal with. the last thing we need is numbnuts bush to get involved.
these people will be fighting forever...and ever.
so let them fight. we should stay out of biz of promoting our jesus loves you democracy.
bush is such a freaking loser. how can anyone possibly defend this idiot. at some point in the future, he, rice, rumsfeld, powell should be held accountable for war crimes. they ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RAPE OF A 15 YEAR OLD GIRL.
they should burn in hell and they will.
what is the basis for all this warmonger shit?
religion....
jack jett
57 - gonzo marx
no duane... that's a bit of a Story...
you see, the Marx brothers were trapped in a hotel, with a chambermaid...for a bit
her daughter...years later, was trapped in a hotel with a certain writer whose initials were HST
ain't i a lucky bastard?
just Jesting...probably....
heh
Excelsior?
58 - Dave Nalle
bush is such a freaking loser. how can anyone possibly defend this idiot. at some point in the future, he, rice, rumsfeld, powell should be held accountable for war crimes. they ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RAPE OF A 15 YEAR OLD GIRL.
they should burn in hell and they will.
If you cannot understand the basic concept of responsibility how can we take your opinion of Bush or anyone else seriously. Pfc. Green's behavior wasn't on Bush's orders - it was in direct contradiction of standing orders. He's a psycho and a criminal. There are a lot of them here in the US. Is Bush responsible for all of them too?
Dave
59 - duane
HST ... hmmm ... Gonzo ... hmmm ... quite the puzzle ...
Harry S. Truman? Nah ... he was more of a politician of some sort.
Hubble Space Telescope? Mmm. Nope. Inanimate space object. Hunter ... ahhh ... Gonzo ... yes, OK.
Alright, so you're Thompson's kid.
Now, which Marx brother?
60 - jack e. jett
let me put it this way. who is responsible for sending troubled kids to a war? george bush.
why didn't he send those girls of his who sit on their ass all day.
bush is the pyscho....green is uneducated and troubled.
BUSH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INNOCENT CIVILIANS THAT HAVE BEEN KILLED IN IRAQ. he suffers from what is called "little penis syndrome" and has to make it up by killing little children.
now that is real christian like isn't it. just like that andrea yates who loves jesus but kills her kids......or that jesus loving bitch that killed her husband, or the religious chick that stoned her children........what is the common denominator? religion.
jack jett
61 - gonzo marx
that's a problem duane...granny sez Zeppo and Gummo are right out... and if Chico is a possibility then she must have been passed out...
but enuff family history, and post modernistic sub-cultural sub-referencing...
Excelsior?
62 - duane
OK, gonzo, I'll let it go. I was going to ply you for more information, but I've had a change of heart. But as Rufus T. Firefly would say, a lot of good that does me, since I still have the same face.
63 - MCH
"As I understand it from your past statements you enlisted in the Navy to avoid being drafted in the army, rather like John Kerry who you seem to idolize. But I'd have done the same thing if I was 3 years older."
- Dave Nalle
Wrong, Nalle. I enlisted in the spring of 1970 after receiving a draft lottery number of 256, well above the cut-off number of 190.
"MCH played billiards and softball in Hawaii during the Vietnam War, and was paid by the US taxpayer to do this, yet he has the gall to belittle others for not "sacrificing" for their country..."
- RJ Elliott
No, just those "others" who promote sending someone else to fight and die in the invasion and occupation of another country, while refusing to even attempt to enlist themselves.
"He's also an "anonymous" one-note, leftist, cyber-stalking troll with absolutely nothing novel or interesting to add to the conversation, ANY conversation..."
- RJ Elliott
So, was your ridiculing of combat vet Max Cleland's appearance by calling him a "gigantic thalidamide baby" pretty novel and interesting?
64 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Adam,
Unfortunately, the comments on this article have degenerated into the normal partisan whining and bickering in the States, spiced with insults.
Are you able to update us on events in Washington as they may relate the "neocons" and foreign policy, given the unfolding events here?
Perhaps, if it is difficult for you, could someone with the skills of Mark Schannon or Dave Nalle pull it off and add to this post as comments as I have done on my piece?
Or is such coverage unnecessary?
65 - Adam Ash
Ruvy,
Thinking about doing something, Ruvy. Maybe in a day or two.
I just find the reality of Bush bleating out whatever first thought comes up in his mind -- "Hezbollah should lay down their arms" (jeez, we've got an inane Prez, when is Hezbollah ever gonna do that?) -- a little hard to take.
Listen, the neocon policy is in ruins. The US foreign policy is in ruins. We've got a paralyzed administration who're going to have their hat handed to them come the November elections.
All this administration has done is expose the limits of US power, which doesn't amount to much these days.
It was better when everybody recognized us as the #1 superpower and were duly scared, than now, when we seem like a helpless giant -- and North Korea, Iran and Hezbollah just do what they want because they're not scared of the #1 superpower anymore.
Our credibility and our projection of strength are basically in the toilet. Instead of speaking quietly and carrying a big stick, we now shriek like an old man with a little, impotent penis. Poor America.