It's a particularly gutless girly-man move for the great fearless Governator Ahnold to call this letter a "hate crime."
"There has been no crime committed, so why is there a criminal investigation three weeks prior to a very important election?" -Tan D Nguyen…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I find it worth relishing the irony. A legal immigrant runs for office and sends out a letter in the language that the presumed illegal immigrants can read telling them that it is a crime for an illegal immigrant to vote.
For this, the legal immigrant is pilloried not only by the politically correct pricks who run the media in California (and elsewhere in the States), but the head of the Republican party, who ought to stand behind his own candidates, given as the fucker is a legal immigrant himself. Maybe if the guy was a white man with a German accent, eh?
There is no gettin' around it folks. America is a white man's country, and if you got the slanty eyes, you just don't measure up to the other immigrants.
27 - VN
This is the ORIGINAL Enlish version of the letter before it got translated into Spanish. I got this one from the press conference they held on Sunday in front of Tan Nguyen's office. Read and judge it for yourself.
==============
"You are receiving this letter because you recently registered to vote. If you are a citizen of the U.S. we encourage you to participate in the democratic process.
However, if you are here illegally or are just a resident with a green card, you should be advised that voting in any Federal Election is a crime and may result in imprisonment, and WILL result in deportation.
In fact, the U.S. Government is in the process of installing a new computer system which will be used to check and verify all new registrants who vote in the October/November elections. Private anti-immigration organizations may also bring a law suit to have access to this new computer system.
Unlike Mexico, there is NO BENEFIT to voting. There is no VOTER CARD in the USA. It is therefore very stupid to vote in any election if you are not a citizen.
Do not pay attention to any politician who tells you anything contrary. They have THEIR OWN INTERESTS. They just want to win elections. They do not care what happens to you."
===================
This letter seems a lot more honest than plenty of campaign mailers I've been receiving from politicians from both parties, when they either completely lie or never keep their promises.
28 - LG
VN, are you joking with me? Is this his defense? He got a bad translation? Spanish is not like Arameic or any other long since lost or dead language. It is very alive and well today and this letter could very easily be translated into Spanish and have the exact same meaning. This was not the letter he sent out and that is what's in question. If he did not perfom Due Dilligence on the letter before it was sent that doesn't make a difference. I would love to see the creation date stamp on this piece of fantasy prose. Even if this is what he "intended" this is very different from what was sent. What was sent to voters is what matters, the above is totally irrelevant.
As for honesty, remember he did not use his letterhead. He used fake letterhead and claimed endorsement from 29 different groups including San Diego Taxpayers (sorry I said voters before). This was also signed Sergio Ramirez, not Tan Nguyen.
Here is a link to the actual letter.
http://www.theliberaloc.com/pdf/theletter.pdf
This is what's in question. In this you will find no mention of "resident with a green card" and those private anti-immigration groups are able to ask for your name. There is no mention of a law suit. He doesn't say it's stupid to vote if you are illegal, he says it's dangerous. That's just a few little gems of difference.
29 - Al Barger
My apology: I should have included the whole letter in the original Spanish and in English in the original text of this story to begin with as a basic point of reference. I just wasn't thinking. I've asked an editor monkey to amend them to the bottom of the story. In the meantime, here's the Nguyen letter in the original Spanish, and here's the Nguyen letter in an English translation.
30 - LG
Thanks for this Al! Now I have to physically restrain myself from checking your blog for the next 3 hours. This juicy topic is derailing my efforts to work.
31 - RK
LG Wrote "It is not illegal to put a sign threatening shoplifters. It is illegal to threaten voters.
Your right LG.
However the letter does not threaten voters. It threatens those WHO ARN'T SUPPOSED TO BE VOTING!! If a legal resident is in fear of deportation maybe they shoudn't be voting?!? ;)
If this is what it takes to bring up the fact that people who arn't supposed to be voting ARE! We a need a lot more guys with the guts Tan's got.
32 - Al Barger
Looking again at the full text of the letter, even the one seed of possible wrongness seems moot. According to the English translation, the very first paragraph says very specifically, "If you are a US citizen, I urge you to participate in the democratic process of voting."
Perhaps someone who speaks Spanish can double check that against the original, but unless that is a complete mis-translation, the opponents' argument that this is attempting to intimidate legitimate voters simply isn't true. Those words at the front of the letter say exactly the opposite of that, don't they? You might think that the second paragraph was ambiguous, but the first one just isn't.
That leaves people complaining about this letter without a leg to stand on, it would seem. What is your objection? What's even a little bit inappropriate about this letter, much less illegal or disreputable? Is it wrong to tell ineligible people that they have no right to vote?
Now, you may not like Tan Nguyen. I don't know enough about him to have much opinion one way or another. You can certainly disagree with his ideas about stricter enforcement of immigration law. I suspect I would if I dug into the specifics of his position.
But that's completely different from the issues about this letter. Criticize his positions on immigration issues, but don't just blindly start accusing him of stuff that simply isn't true by saying that he's trying to intimidate legal voters. That'll just destroy your credibility.
33 - RK
The one thing that never gets discussed seriously that needs to get addressed in the 47th disctrict (which I live in by the way and Tan is now my freakin Political Hero) is that there are a whole lot of illegals around here who vote every year. Stop them you say? oh no no immigration is a federal issue... We have special order no 40 or some crap like that. After all it's not the job of the government to ask people thier immigration status. But were leading the charge against global warming! And Gay rights! Stems Cells! and.. and...
ummm.... yeah... right... Good thing the US Governments got it's basic priorities straight right? I promised myself I'd never say this but hope everyone in government very slowly and painfully dies of cancer. They deserive it.
34 - DK
Regardless of whether the letter was illegal or not, it was deceptive and dishonest.
Who's Sergio Ramirez?
What's with the CCIR letterhead?
New database?
35 - LG
Wow! I couldn't do it.
Okay Al and RK here we go again. The letter says that the government is verifying the names of registered voters of people that vote in the upcoming elections. It also says that Anti-Immgrations groups will be able to access these names. So if you are a new citizen, and an immigrant, and vote in this election, these groups can get your name. That is a threat.
"Organizations against Immigration" not Organizations against illegal immigrants. "Organizations against Immigration. You only have to watch the news, call the number listed on the letter, or look at the website listed to know that you probably don't want these radical frightend freaks to add you to their target list.
Now what if I wrote a letter to "born in America" US citizens that said "The government is checking newly registered voters that vote in the election and Telemarketers will be able to have access to this list. Would I deter voters? Of course I would! My scenario isn't even as bad and it would be illegal.
This paragraph refers to newly registered voters who vote. It does not mention illegals. So no matter what the first few sentences say (you seem to be taking that text as a sort of overall disclaimer - it's not, sorry) he is saying here that you (a legal voter) could possibly end up on a list that radical anti-immigration groups can access if you vote. That is a threat and it's ILLEGAL!
I love how you attack my credibility but don't address the facts. I have stated facts and arguments citing specific references to the letter and the parts of the letter that are illegal. This threatening paragraph makes me believe that the intention of this letter was to intimidate US citizens (who also happen to be immigrants) and deter them from voting.
I think you can cover you hands and ears and say lallalalalalalal - it's only about illegals -llalalalalala - I won't hear anything else. But it won't change the facts that this candidate sent out a wildly UNETHICAL and ILLEGAL letter. Now stop repeating the same rebuttal and address this database issue, I need to get back to work!
36 - LG
Here's a better scenario.
Goverenment has system blah, blah, blah and Anti-Abortion groups will have access to the names. Now imagine that I've sent these letters to employees of Planned Parenthood.
If you worked at Planned Parenthood would you want a radical Anti-Abortion Group to have your name? The answer is no. Probably Hell no. Now if you are against abortion you probably wouldn't mind and couldn't conceive of why this would be a problem - doesn't change anything.
This group on the letterhead calls for volunteers to join the Minute Men. Men that arm themselves and scare people away down at the border with no legal jurisdiction. Pretty radical. I remember when these types wore pointy white hats. Many of these same arguments of sovereignty, dillution, and losing our country used to be targeted toward the "black threat." Looks like illegal is the new black.
This is a threat. Tan can yap about how much of a problem illegals are and garner support from like minded individuals as much as he wants. What he cannot do is intimidate voters that might vote for his opponent. He tried to do that and he got caught. What he did was ILLEGAL. He should be charged.
37 - VN
Here's Tan Nguyen's statement from the press conference on Sunday. It's posted on his website at www.tanforcongress.com. See for yourself who's making ILLEGAL action here, Tan or his opponent LORETTA SANCHEZ, WHO IS FUELING THIS WHOLE HYSTERIA AND INTERFERRING WITH HIS CAMPAIGN?
================
TAN NGUYEN’S PRESS STATEMENT
TAN NGUYEN FOR CONGRESS
12955 MAIN ST., GARDEN GROVE, CA 92840
Oct. 22, 2006
Good afternoon everyone, and thank you for coming today.
Let me begin by answering all the political figures, including the Chairman of the Orange County Republican Party- Scott Baugh, and their ridiculous call my withdrawal. I am innocent…and there is NO WAY IN HELL I AM QUITING THIS RACE. Mr. Scott Baugh, like many people this week, has made a rush to judgment and without all the facts. I find it incredible that he didn’t even call me, to get my side of the story, or didn’t even wait for the result of this so called investigation.
THERE HAS BEEN NO CRIME COMMITTED, SO WHY IS THERE A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION BEING CONDUCTED BY THE STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL, THREE WEEKS PRIOR TO A VERY IMPORTANT ELECTION?
What is going on? And who is fueling this hysteria?
I would be doing a disservice to myself and the people of this community if I were to quit. A recent survey conducted by Public Opinion Strategies found that I am neck and neck with my opponent, Ms. Sanchez. However, among voters who are 100% likely to vote this November, I am leading Ms. Sanchez by 13%. We have tremendous support from the people of this district because we have bonded with them in the last two years. We have listened to their concerns and we’ve been telling it like it is, whether when it comes to the issue of Illegal Immigration, Border Security, The War in Iraq, Caring for Our Elders, or Keeping American Jobs Here in America.
I have always tell it like it is and that’s what I am going to do today.
There is no crime committed, not a hate crime, and not even a love crime. The whole hysteria and nonsense about there being a crime is just a BIG FAT LIE and those who are fueling this hysteria and nonsense should be ashamed of themselves.
So, if there’s no crime committed, why is there an expedited criminal investigation conducted by the State Attorney General, three weeks prior to an election? What’s the rush? What’s going on? WHY HAS NO ONE STOOD UP AND SAY “THE EMPEROR’S GOT NO CLOTHES!!!!” Well, I am gonna do that!
I have learned that the letter in question was the Spanish translation of a letter in English, urging green card holders and illegal immigrants to refrain from voting. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? My attorney for the political campaign will address the letter, later.
Then, you be the judge! Where is the hate crime? Where is the voter intimidation? AND IF THERE’S NO VOTER INTIMIDATION AND NO CRIME, THEN WHY IS THERE AN EXPEDITED CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION BEEN CONDUCTED BY THE STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL? WHAT’S GOING ON? AND WHO IS FUELING THIS HYSTERIA?
There is now some debate to what the Spanish translation actually says, especially when it comes to the word “EMIGRADO.”
I took a long walk along the beach, last night, and I met many Hispanics. I asked them about the word “EMIGRADO,” and was very surprised to find out that it either means a person with a GREEN CARD or a person here legally but does not have citizenship. This is also a term used by the United States Immigration Service Agents to ask those crossing our border, whether they are a CITIZEN OR AN EMIGRADO, a person who is here legally, but with only a green card. All of us know that a person who only has a green card can not vote.
So, if this is the term used by the United States Government to describe green card holders, then who’s feeding this hysteria? I don’t speak Spanish, but my opponent does…why don’t you ask her what EMIGRADO really means, and why is she fueling the fire. Why is she holding rallies to add to the hysteria?
My opponent, Ms. Sanchez, is not concerned with enforcing our immigration laws. In fact, she has introduced legislation to prevent prospective voters to show valid I.D. before voting. She has even sponsored bills to give social security pensions to illegal immigrants…in a time when we don’t even have enough money to pay our retirees. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that this would encourage more people to vote fraudulently.
I am appalled and surprised at the amount of hysteria that has been generated.
Ms. Sanchez, who has been unavailable to defend her bizarre voting record which includes refusing to condemn Hezbollah, the terrorist organization that killed 241 of our Marines in 1983, refusing to commend our soldiers, refusing to help our senior citizens get cheaper medicines and Long Term Care, has all of a sudden jumped on the bandwagon and made herself very available!
Look at what this has created! There’s no crime committed. Yet, armed policemen raided my office and home, terrorizing my family and volunteers. They’ve interfered with my ability to run my campaign by taking my computers, by taking all my contacts with all the voters. They even took my campaign signs at my house. WHAT IS GOING ON HERE! I believe my constitutional rights of free speech and my ability to campaign have been violated! I have asked my attorney for the political campaign, Bill Braniff, to look into the substance of the letter. He’s a former U.S. Attorney, and he’s volunteering his services. I WILL SAY THAT THIS ELECTION IS BEING INTERFERRED WITH.
Why did they time their raid of my home and office at the same time as my PRE-ANNOUNCED PRESS CONFERENCE? What’s going on, and who’s behind this? We were fully cooperating with there investigation. So, what was the rush?
Lastly, I would like to issue an apology to my office manager who I had discharged earlier this week, before I knew all the facts. And I would like to invite her back to work on the campaign. I made a mistake. I, like many people this week, had made a snap judgment. Her forwarding of the database without my permission was an error made, but with good intentions.
These past days have been HELL for my family and me. The only thing that has kept us going is the fact that we heard from many of the people in our community who have stood by us, prayed for us, left flowers at our doors, and have been with us 100%. I ask those people and anyone else who wants to support our situation to come here, to this office, next Saturday at 12 O’clock. I will personally be here to meet you and thank you. I need your support.
===================
38 - Sylvia Muffaleto
"I'm guessing you don't understand politics very well..."
and he is someone who would know.
I love reading all these faux pundits frothing at the mouth, ignoring the fact that OC Republican officials in the middle of what's happening see that Tan's campaign erred. I guess you are all smarter than they are.
If Tan didn't do anything wrong, then why wouldn't he have used his own letterhead? Why does Barbara Coe of CCIR repeatedly denied her group’s involvement with the Nguyen letter? Why does no one know who Sergio Ramirez, the letter's signor, is?
If we let everyone under suspicion of a crime dictate whether or not there should be an investigation, I'm guessing the jails would clear up.
39 - Al Barger
Sylvia, being mad and militant doesn't mean that you have any legitimate point. What crime is it that you say has supposedly been committed to need investigated?
I don't quite understand the letterhead or the nominal group. It sounds as if someone cleverly conjured up a little ad hoc committee to make their point. I suppose you can decide that you're going to try to make something bad or "deceptive" out of that, but it doesn't mean anything. Whoever it was saying it, the content of that letter seems to be perfectly legitimate.
The database business that folks are carrying on about seems legitimate. That would appear to mean simply that voting is a matter of documented public record.
If you are a citizen, PLEASE come vote- and that there is a record of it would then be something for you to be proud of, and you don't even have to get your fingers stained purple. If you're NOT eligible to vote but do so anyway, that'll be something that can be proven as a matter of public record. What's illegitimate about that?
40 - Sylvia Muffaleto
Al, I'm neither, but you've been wrong throughout this thread, so I shouldn't expect you to change now.
If you are going to write an article, you really should consider doing some research first unless you get paid for every element of the story you "don't quite understand".
A group wasn't invented for the purpose of the letter. It's a real organization who was made to look as if they were responsible and the letter was signed by a person not involved with them. I believe that's called fraud. Do you think it's okay to send out letters purporting to represent organizations?
I believe the crime being investigated is termed voter suppression, but it is not I who said it was committed. I'll leave that to the state investigators and the U.S. Justice Department who are involved unless you have some evidence to show they routinely investigate crimes without evidence. I'll trust their opinion over the accused and everyone sitting at their keyboards. He may very well be innocent, but the more info that comes out, the worse it looks.
If you think this matter is only about telling illegals that they shouldn't vote, then there is no point for further discussion.
41 - Al Barger
With due respect Miss Sylvia, your Deep Indignance at this supposed "fraud" strikes me as utterly contrived. Again, perhaps someone has been presuming to speak on behalf of some group whom they are not authorized to represent- I just don't know, but even in that worst case, I doubt the law would be interested, as they were not using such pretense for any financial type gain.
But what people are bitching about is 99% variations on claiming voter intimidation. That charge clearly absolutely and completely does not stick even a little bit on any examination, so you're looking for something else- even if it's something petty. I highly doubt you would be so contorted about such a thing if it involved a candidate otherwise to your liking. Am I wrong?
I do, however, apologize for my general lack of omniscience. I should have anticipated every possible conceivable sidetrack someone might take anywhere around this topic and responded to those conversational points in advance.
Again, my basic point of analysis is that there's this letter associated with this campaign that has drawn charges of being voter intimidation and a "hate crime." That is the specific angle of this analysis. Perhaps there are other useful angles.
42 - RJ Elliott
"First of all RJ - If you are going to reprint someone else's opinion, give them credit. I'm sure Gordon Dillow would appreciate it."
Who the hell is Gordon Dillow?
43 - RJ Elliott
"LOL I guess Republicans want Illegal immigrants to vote if they register Republican. What hypocrisy!!"
Why would it make sense for a Republican to spend his own limited campaign cash on disuading his OWN POTENTIAL VOTERS from going to the polls? And why would ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS want to vote for a candidate who is strongly opposed to illegal immigration?
Sending the letters to registered Republicans with Hispanic-sounding names would be either pointless (because illegal immigrants who register to vote are not registering with the GOP) or counter-productive. Or possibly both.
Again: You don't understand politics much, do you?
44 - PJ
RJ you make the point perfectly clear. Tan Is simply using voter suppression tactics which is why he is being investigated. If he really was concerned with illegals voting. he would have targeted all illegals rather than targeting democrats only. If Illegals some how vote for more dems as it is claimed, than it would have made little or no difference to target all and Tan would not be finding himself in the mess he has gotten himself into. (Considereing he has already spent 650,000 of his own money I doubt money was an issue.)
Now the police are investigating his Live-in partner Mark Nguyen.
45 - LG
PJ you hit it on the nail - Awesome!
I'm just going to be your toady on this one and say - Yeah!
RJ, I don't think you understand that you just clearly illustrated why what Tan did was illegal. Look at your own post, "Why would it make sense for a Republican to spend his own limited campaign cash on disuading his OWN POTENTIAL VOTERS from going to the polls?" Of course not RJ - you're right! He should "dissuade" the people that won't vote for him. That's what he did and that's illegal.
So it appears that your "understanding" of politics doesn't give you any skill in playing the game. :)
I laughed out loud when I read this - precious.
46 - Martin Lav
Tan was on a local radio station yesterday here in LA and his explanations sound perfectly reasonable so far. However, the States Attorney Generals response letter, mailed to the same 14,000 on the letterhead of at least one Racist organization fronting as a "civil rights" organization (La Raza) does not. Just like the Orange County Republic party along with our Republican Governor, throwing Tan under the bus without even asking him about it, just to pander to the Mexican-Americans, is equally insulting.
Tan a legal immigrant wants to make certain that the rules are applied equally.
If legal Voters are intimidated by illegal voters, then that should be the crime. A letter sent to legal voters, welcoming their participation in the process seems reasonable, however, if they are illegally voting, because Loretta Sanchez and some of her constiuents are busy signing them up then I think it's a perfectly legitimate way to address this issue.
47 - LG
Martin, I don't even know where to start with you. Obviously you listen to conservative radio because that's what Tan went on. Conservative radio (Rush, Savage) are notorious for presenting opinion as fact and Rush frequently missquotes the constitution for his own measures so let's just hit the facts of your letter.
1. Name one news article that shows anyone from Loretta Sanchez's campaign siging up illegal voters. One article with proof this happened. While you're at it show me one article that shows proof the democrats have done this in an election. Just because Republicans and neo-cons say it happened does not make it true. They make crap up all the time and their toadies repeat it as fact.
2. La Raza is "fronting" as a civil rights organization. What is their real purpose? Tell me, I'm dying to know.
3. Where in any of this did legal voters complain of being "intimidated" by illegal voters. Cite and article because that is just false.
4. You need to read the letter beyond what Al obviously thinks is a disclaimer for the rest of the letter where Tan threatens voters that their names will go to Anti-Immigration groups if they vote.
5. I am so sick of Tan claiming legal immigrant status and throwing in the face of illegals. If Johnson did not allow the Vietnamese refugees to stay he would be in the same boat as anyone south of the border. As a matter of fact how did he come here? Was he illegal at first and then was fortunate enough to have the president say it was okay? Don't kid yourself in thinking that American voters wanted the huge influx of Vietnamese refugees here. Bush wants to do this for Mexicans. Why was it okay for Tan but not for them. He is a hypocrite and an opportunist.
48 - PJ
"If legal Voters are intimidated by illegal voters"
The people who recieved the letter were registered voters. No indication of how many if any were actually illegally registered. If you have some ACTUAL info and stats please post the citations.
This also has nothing to do with Pandering to any group. This has to do with the laws the Law enforcement officials cited. Voter intimidation and Racketeering.
By the end of the week I am sure we will either see an arrest of either Tan, his live in partner Mark or they will not find any criminal behaviour.
But I say Law enforcement do its job. Unless of course you believe Republicans are above the law.
49 - Martin Lav
Number one, I'm not a republican nor do I listen to right-wing wacko talk radio. He was on Ken and John and although they take a very ascertive stance with the illegal immigration issue, they are not considered left or right.
As far as evidence of Loretta Sanchez' tampering with registering of voters, when she originally one her seat, (in a typically Republican area) over Bob Dornan, there were at least 700 cases discovered of votes cast by non-legal voters. While it has never been directly attributed to her, it has been cited that members of the democratic party within her area have publicly instructed residents that when they register to vote, no one can ask them to prove they are a citizen. "No papales".
So go ahead and assume Mr. Tan is guilty and like his own party is doing, then quickly issue an apology and retraction letter with the endorsement of La Raza (the race) and have the Secretary General of the State send it to the "threatened" presumably legally registered voters. You'd be just like them.
And oh by the way, La Raza has had members in a leadership position advocate and call for the "reconcista" of the US back to Mexico. Also, during the day without and immigrant when traffic on the freeways flowed freely.....many representatives of the democratic party were at the marches registering voters. Since it was assumed many of them were here illegally, I'm sure someone loosely affiliated with Mr. Tan's campaign sent out this "friendly reminder" to these people to make certain they knew the consequences of casting a vote illegally.
50 - LG
Pretty much like I thought Martin, you can't cite an actual article. Where's the proof? You assume and you repeat opinions and speculation as fact.
I don't have to "assume" Mr. Tan is guilty. I read the letter that he sent out in English and in Spanish. I can quote you the text that violates the law. If there is any justice in OC and I think there is, then he will be brought up on charges. They he can yell and scream that he's not guilty to a judge.
51 - Martin Lav
LG,
I don't have to cite any articles or provide any proof to you or anyone. I'm only stating my opinion as you are. I told you I heard the broadcast and know enough about this so-called case to have an educated opinion. I don't know what your trip is, but you were kind enough to post the transcript of his press conference and that says a lot as well. What are the charges by the way?
52 - PJ
"As far as evidence of Loretta Sanchez' tampering with registering of voters, when she originally one her seat, (in a typically Republican area) over Bob Dornan, there were at least 700 cases discovered of votes cast by non-legal voters"
I did ask for cases of REGISTERED VOTERS. and citations.
"nor do I listen to right-wing wacko talk radio."
Yet Tan nguyen only plead his case on "right-wing wacko talk radio" so how is that possible?
and Finally let's not forget the actual case against Tan Nguyen and his Live in Partner is Voter Intimidation and Racketeering. The reality is that ONLY REGISTERED DEMOCRATS were targeted. these letters were not sent to registered voters of Both parties (with hispanic surnames).
So until the Police make thier arrest or let him go there is not much anyone can say. Either he and his live in partner broke the law and will do the madatory 3 year prison sentence or they did not and will continue on their campaign.
What we do know is that Tan Nguyen approved the mailer as stated by the OC republicans as well as the agency he hired to gather the information on these voters.
We also know that these letters were sent to Legal Voters. There has not yet been a case showing any of the recipients being Illegal aliens or non US citizens.
So if you have data SHOWING OTHERWISE Post it.
53 - Martin Lav
"Yet Tan nguyen only plead his case on "right-wing wacko talk radio" so how is that possible?"
KFI in Los Angeles -- The John and Ken Show
Look it up.
"We also know that these letters were sent to Legal Voters. There has not yet been a case showing any of the recipients being Illegal aliens or non US citizens."
What constitutes a legal voter?
US citizen?
How do they prove that when they register?
"What we do know is that Tan Nguyen approved the mailer as stated by the OC republicans as well as the agency he hired to gather the information on these voters."
How do you know he approved it?
Gather information for what? Get a list of registered democrats in your area so you can campaign to them? That's what the list was for, if this list was given by his office manager (who he fired and has since re-hired) to an inappropriate party or parties, it doesn't sound like he authorized it. Besides even if he did, where is the intimidation? I don't see it.
POST IT
54 - PJ
How do they prove that when they register?
We know who they were sent to and can find out if they are legal citizens. so far many have come forward to say they are legal. As in registered Citizen.
We know from Tan Nguyen that 1st he didn't know about it then he flip flopped and said he did. We also know HE was the one who spoke to the Agency that did the research as ffrom their own statements. We also know that the OC republican Party was aware that Nguyen approved it from their statements.
The intimidation is up for the police to decide when they arrest Tan and his live-in Partner, then later for the Judge and jury to find them guilty or not.
The intimidation comes from sending this letter to so far only legal citizens registered with the democratic Party threatening them with arrest if they try to vote. Making no clear distinction between registered naturalized citizen and illegal aliens or persons residing in CA ineligible to vote. EVEN IF BY MISTAKE. He can plead his case to a judge. But instead he is playing the court of public opinion.
Voter inimidation and Racketeering is Illegal
"Get a list of registered democrats in your area so you can campaign to them?"
Camaigning to people and threatening them with arrest are two different things. There was nothing in the letter telling them who to vote for or any campaign message at all. There was simply a threat of arrest sent to people who are Registered voters and NOTHING TO SUGGEST THEY ARE ILLEGAL.
55 - PJ
Yes familiar with the John and ken show and yes they are Right Wingers.
56 - PJ
Oh look "Congressman Ed Royce will be on the show at 3:00" the John and ken show giving yet another Republican Freee Air Time.
Do you think they will mention his ties to Jack abramoff? He certainly posed for a lot of pictures with him.
My guess is no
57 - VN
LG, on message #47 you said: "As a matter of fact how did he (Tan) come here? Was he illegal at first and then was fortunate enough to have the president say it was okay?"
DEAD WRONG!!!
Looks like you run out of your materials and start to say thing you don't really know and just pretend you do know. You may need to do some research on Vietnam War then you will know how Tan, as well as other the Vietnamese people, coming to the US after the war. I will be more than happy to help if you can't find it by yourself.
58 - Al Barger
PJ, it's pretty clear that you're not after any pursuit of actual truth or reason here, but just set on some partisan smearfest. For starters, enough with that "live in partner" crap. You're saying that you think he's gay. Got the point, but it's irrelevant- if it's even true. Don't care. But I do hold it against you for repeatedly smearing at him that way. Gay is cool, smearing ain't.
You can go on about racketeering and such stuff all day, but you're just making that crap up all out of your head wholecloth. You SAY that they only sent this to registered Democrats with Hispanic names, but you're probably just making that up as well. Not that there would be anything whatsoever wrong with them sending this only to registered Democrats, but where'd you hear that from?
You can carry on with your perjorative phrases, made up accusations, mindless and irrelevant complaints about talk radio, and general personal smears- and that still doesn't mean that anything wrong was done.
However, if it cheers you up, I'll note a small win for your left wing pro-vote fraud side: a judge in Ohio has at least momentarily thrown out enforcement of their new law requiring ID checks at the polls. One for your side.
59 - VN
PG, on message #48 you said: "But I say Law enforcement do its job. Unless of course you believe Republicans are above the law."
It's so funny until now you still connect Tan with Republicans, especially after all the things they did to him after the "letter" incident. I guess he should be considered as an Independent now. And maybe that's why he got hammered from both parties.
60 - RJ Elliott
It is not in Tan's best interests to spend his limited campaign resources on disuading illegal immigrants who might vote for him (yeah, all three of them...) from voting. That is supposed to be the job of the election officials (ha-ha).
It is in Tan's best interests to disuade illegal immigrants from voting for his opponent (probably in the hundreds or thousands...) in the upcoming election. That's why he sent the letter - because election officials in his district have a track record of allowing illegal immigrants to vote (presumably for Democrats).
Once again, you don't seem to understand that election-season politics is about WINNING, not about "playing fair"...
61 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Let me see. Should Tan Nguyen sent out a warning to registered illegal voters? And where would he get souch a list? From the mobsters that got them illegally registered?
I continue to relish the irony of a country that has been tripped up by itas own tangled and ridiculuous immigration laws, by its own indecision as to whether the voter or the citizen is intelligent enough to decide to vote or not, and by its owqn unwillingness to admit that its own laws are being flouted by incumbent politicians.
The biggest irony of them all is that the legal immigrant Tan Nguyen is being condemned by who? Legal immigrant Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Having seen completely sane men act like idiots because they have been bribed to - that's the pilitical establishnebt of this country from the "crime" minister on down - I have a couple of questions for LG and Sylvia Mufalleto to check out themnselves. Who is paying off Schwarzengger to act like an idiot? Who has threatened him with what if he does not pervert the laws of the state where he is governor, and thereby violate the oaths HE took, both as a new citizen, and a as a state governor.
My father's citizenship papers, obtained seven years after he emigrated to America from Poland were his most prized possession. A registered citizen who has his citizenship papers sould not have to be afraid that the INS will not respect them. If he is, your country's laws and its vaunted constitution are not worth the paper they are printed on. Aned all your singing about justice under G-d and justice for all is just so much horse manure.
Maybe, Senator Barger, that is the real story here underneath the headline...
62 - VN
PJ, on message #54 you said: "We know who they were sent to and can find out if they are legal citizens. so far many have come forward to say they are legal. As in registered Citizen."
HOW do you find out among 14,000 people, if someone are not eligible to vote?
HOW MANY PEOPLE have come forward to say they are legal out of 14,000 recipients?
HOW MANY PEOPLE won't come foward to say they are legal, because they are actually not leagal?
THERE IS NO WAY ANY ONE CAN FIND OUT who's legal and who's illegal registered voter. That why the letter has to be sent to all 14,000 people. Whoever a legal registered voter, they saw the first paragraph of the letter as an encouragement/reminder to go to vote, and then trash the letter as another piece of junk mail during election time. Whoever not a legal registered voter, saw the rest of the letter, as it was in the original English or the Spanish version (remember again the English version on LA Times or OC Register was not come from neither Tan's office nor the guy named Sergio Ramirez), would be aware that they should not go to vote and should not let the politicians taking advantage on them.
When a business mail out a promotion, they may mail out to 10 or 20 thousands of households. Of course they don't expect to hit 10 or 20 thousands targets and get 10 or 20 thousands customers in return. They expect 3-5 % in return at best. That is a simple example in case you wonder why they must send out that letter to 14,000 recipients and why they even send to legal citizens. They can't tell who is illegal registered voters (if they can, those people probably got arrested), and it is rather send to the potential list including people who should not receive than don't send to people who should receive.
63 - Sylvia Muffaleto
"Who is paying off Schwarzengger to act like an idiot?"
Paid off? What are you talking about exactly? With all the money he has made in Hollywood and his wife being a Kennedy, it's a little naive to believe that he would accept a bribe.
Why couldn't it be that he's acting like an idiot, which I agree is the way he's acting because this is no hate crime, for free to help his own campaign, even though it's not needed?
"Who has threatened him with what if he does not pervert the laws of the state where he is governor, and thereby violate the oaths HE took, both as a new citizen, and a as a state governor."
Threaten him with what? He's going to get re-elected governor again. And what laws is he perverting? This is the first I've heard this accusation.
Your questions are bordering on conspiritorial hysteria.
64 - VN
"The biggest irony of them all is that the legal immigrant Tan Nguyen is being condemned by who? Legal immigrant Arnold Schwarzenegger." (Quote from message #61 by Ruvy in Jerusalem)
Love it!
65 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Sylvia, calling the kettle black writes,
"Threaten him with what? He's going to get re-elected governor again. And what laws is he perverting? This is the first I've heard this accusation.
Your questions are bordering on conspiritorial hysteria."
And what the hell do you think this whole legal lynching of Tan Nguyen is? He dared call a spade a spade and said there was illegal voting in his district and sent a letter out warning voters away from it (Democratic voters, obviously), and his Republican party runs away from him like he carried the plague. If I were him, I'd quit the race, and the Republican party both, get my name off the ballot, and let the voters have the prevaricating thief of a politician that Ms. Sanchez obviously is.
With people like her in power, Californians like you will get what you deserve - to be shafted but good.
66 - Sylvia Muffaleto
Ruvy, it appears you don't know the story, so you should stop embarrasing yourself and spare the melodrama. Since you failed to back up your accusations of payoffs and threats, we'll move on.
"He dared call a spade a spade and said there was illegal voting in his district and sent a letter out warning voters away from it"
That is absolutely false and illustrates you don't know the issue. On Sunday, Nguyen said he did not authorize or approve the letters, which said more than there was illegal voting in his district. That's why the authorities are investigating it and The OC Repubs have turned their backs, but of course, being halfway around the world gives you a much better perspective than those here in the middle of it. If you have some inside info that the authorities don't, you shouldn't keep it to yourself.
In 2004 Tan quit the Dems, so he's running out of options. He can't get his name off the ballot this late in the game, but why should you start getting information about the CA political system correct now?
And I can't let this gem slip by.
"I highly doubt you would be so contorted about such a thing if it involved a candidate otherwise to your liking. Am I wrong?"
Yes, as usual. Tan is not running for my district, so I have no understanding of his positions as a candidate, which seem to adjust every two years. Obviously you are projecting your own lack of integrity because even if I liked a candidate, I would take issue with them if allegations of voter intimidation were raised.
67 - PJ
"That is absolutely false and illustrates you don't know the issue. On Sunday, Nguyen said he did not authorize or approve the letters, "
However OC repubs say that he did and have evidence of that TO BE SEEN IN COURT. Also the Demographic company SPOKE TO TAN NGUYEN HIMSELF and TAN was the one who told them to gather info on REGISTERED DEMOCRATS WITH HISPANIC SURNAMES.
I guess you missed that being half way around the world and all.
68 - PJ
HOW do you find out among 14,000 people, if someone are not eligible to vote?
HOW MANY PEOPLE have come forward to say they are legal out of 14,000 recipients?
HOW MANY PEOPLE won't come foward to say they are legal, because they are actually not leagal?
Exactly the point. TAN DIDN'T HE JUST SENT THE LETTERS TO PEOPLE WHO ARE REGISTERED DEMOCRATS.
However the Names and Adresses of ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ARE NOW KNOWN SO YES WE CAN FIND OUT BECAUSE THEY DON"T HAVE TO COME FORWARD.
69 - Martin Lav
Sylvia says:
"I have no understanding of his positions as a candidate"
Al Barger says:
"it's pretty clear that you're not after any pursuit of actual truth or reason here, but just set on some partisan smearfest."
So I guess that makes Al's assertion true.
Ruvy on the other hand and although " half way around the world" appears to hit the nail on the head:
"He dared call a spade a spade and said there was illegal voting in his district and sent a letter out warning voters away from it (Democratic voters, obviously), and his Republican party runs away from him like he carried the plague. If I were him, I'd quit the race, and the Republican party both, get my name off the ballot, and let the voters have the prevaricating thief of a politician that Ms. Sanchez obviously is."
I challenge Ms. Sanchez to make these point clear:
1. Denounce the motto “For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada,” as repugnant, racist, and totally incompatible with American society or citizenship.
2. Acknowledge the right of all Americans to live wherever they choose in the U.S. without segregation.
3. Commit to sponsorship of nationwide educational programs to combat racism and anti-Semitism in the Hispanic community.
4. Denounce and sever all ties with MEChA and any other organizations with which they have ever been associated which held to the racist doctrines held by MEChA.
5. Acknowledge the internationally recognized borders of the U.S., the right of the citizens of the U.S. to determine immigration policy through the democratic process, and the right of the U.S. to undertake any and all necessary steps to effectively enforce immigration law and defend its border against unauthorized entry.
6. Repudiate all claims that current American territory rightfully belongs to Mexico.
70 - LG
LG, on message #47 you said: "As a matter of fact how did he (Tan) come here? Was he illegal at first and then was fortunate enough to have the president say it was okay?"
"DEAD WRONG!!!
Looks like you run out of your materials and start to say thing you don't really know and just pretend you do know. You may need to do some research on Vietnam War then you will know how Tan, as well as other the Vietnamese people, coming to the US after the war. I will be more than happy to help if you can't find it by yourself."
Hey VN, first of all, if there is a question mark at the end of a sentence it is a question not a statement of fact. So Duh, I was asking questions which since you claim to know so much you could have answered. Instead you just blast me for being "wrong" and get your panties all in a bunch. Of course you provided not actual facts or answers but hey why start now?
Incidentally, I did do my research on the Vietnam War before I posted. I actually felt I knew the answers before but I thought I'd double check the facts. So I do know about it. I know that some people fled by boat (boat people) and that the US welcomed the refugees and I know that some people managed to come here on visas and were later welcome here. I'm not sure where Tan fits in (although I've read he's a boat person) so I asked the question. One thing I do know is that Johnson made sure that these people could come here and that decision was NOT a popular one.
I do know that Bush wants to do not even as much as Johnson for Latin Americans and Tan is against that. He came here under special allowances. He did not go through normal channels - Hey most immigrants don't. But what's good for him is not good for anyone else. Again, he is a hypocrite and an opportunist.
71 - LG
Ruvy and Martin - your posts are nonsensical and not worth comment. Slyvia - I applaud you for trying but those two are incapable of listening to anything but their own babble.
Al, at this point what your saying is so silly and repetitive that I'm convinced you are only trying to draw more attention to this post to keep it hot. You've completely covered your ears and stuck your head in the sand on all facts.
PJ's making it up huh. Hey PJ, that's a neat trick. You managed to get your 'made up' facts on all news channels - Sweet!
72 - miculo
Tan Nguyen should be jailed for some years and then... deported!!
73 - ItsdaBunny
This "LG" person is obviously an idiot who never did his research. Yes, Nguyen is a "boat person" but he was NOT an "illegal immigrant". If you know anything about immigrating to the US by boat, you CANNOT get into the country without a Sponsor and without the proper the documentation. (You can't just dig a hole in the ground and cross the border!) You have to travel by boat thousands of miles to get to the US, and US Coast guards wouldn't swarm around you before letting you step foot onto the docks. No "boat person" can be an "illegal immigrant", as you claim. Don't make up facts just to support your claim of calling him a hypocrite. It just makes you look stupid and uneducated.
74 - VN
LG, on message #70 you said: "Hey VN, first of all, if there is a question mark at the end of a sentence it is a question not a statement of fact."
Yes there was a question mark at the end of your sentence, but the way you presented your sentence, it was more like a confirmative question, NOT a regular question.
You also said: "Incidentally, I did do my research on the Vietnam War before I posted. I actually felt I knew the answers before but I thought I'd double check the facts. So I do know about it. I know that some people fled by boat (boat people) and that the US welcomed the refugees and I know that some people managed to come here on visas and were later welcome here. I'm not sure where Tan fits in (although I've read he's a boat person) so I asked the question. One thing I do know is that Johnson made sure that these people could come here and that decision was NOT a popular one."
You were just keeping blah... blah...blah... and you ended up did not know EXACTLY about how the Vietnamese (including Tan's family) got here. I was SO disapointed. I expected you to be more honest in the discussion. I did offered to tell you the story, all I expected was that you just said you didn't know and that you just wanted to hear what it was. You did not. Instead you just kept blah.. blah... blah.. more and more. You was NOT an honest person I thought you were. What is the point you want to make here through out the whole discussion? You're trying to prove you know more than other people about something? Or you're trying to prove Tan is the bad candidate and all of us should not vote for him? If so, you can see by now no one here was convinced by your untruthful arguments. Why you just keep trying hopelessly? Please tell why you keep doing so? What is the motivation behind the whole thing?
There are two news I heard today at the rally supporting Tan Nguyen in Garden Grove that I want to share with you, in case you don't know it yet.
On a fundraising on Friday night October 27, the Speaker of the House Dennis Haster has talked about the controversy word "Emigrado". He confirmed the word means either an illegal imigrant or a resident holding green card. I guess there won't be an arrest to Tan Nguyen at all, if that is what you're waiting for. The other news is that he and his lawyers might bring up to Federal court people who involved in the whole interference with his campaign. Maybe there will be someone going to jail, but that person may not be the one you hope for.
LG, I don't hope you to be convinced (based on the history of you posts), but I hope you at least see some points from here.
God bless you.
75 - VN
A video clip from Tan's press conference on Sunday Oct 22.