Well, just when right wingers reach what I consider a low point - such as publishing the divorce reports of Cindy Sheehan as Michelle Malkin did - they sink lower.
I got a bit mad yesterday when reading about President Bush speaking to a veteran's group where he equated the fight against Nazis in World War II with America's hunt for terrorists - leaving out that it's questionable whether we're succeeding on that front or that the U.S. is once again trying to spread democracy via military action (i..e not in a democratic way).
The comparison made me think of Godwin's Law, explained here by Wikipedia, and how when I hear comparisons to Nazis I think, "Warning! Something outrageous is about to be said."
But I thought, 'I'll let other bloggers take on the challenge of explaining the difference between this war and World War II.
And I saw this and was satisfied, at least for now, by this Slate piece with the headline: "Sorry Mr. President, You're No FDR - Bush's worst war analogy yet".
But then I read this item in DC Media Girl's blog and I knew I had to say something.
Bill O'Reilly also decided to make a comparison to Nazis - always a bad idea - except he was talking about those who agree with points made in the excellent movie Outfoxed. O'Reilly said:
Those who believe that Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch’s War on Journalism "tells the truth about this [Fox News] network" took their place alongside those who "agree with Reverends [Jerry] Falwell and [Pat] Robertson that gays and abortionists caused God to allow 9-11"; those who "agree that Allah is OK with slaughtering civilians"; and those who "admire the philosophy of the Third Reich."
Now first of all, since when do liberals get lumped in with crazy conservative evangelists? Silly me, I thought O'Reilly's political views were closer to Robertson and Falwell than, say, me.
But comparing people who watch and support a movie that objects to Fox presenting opinion as news and essentially being a piece of propaganda... saying, that people objecting to Fox propaganda "admire the philosophy of the Third Reich?
Wow. I don't even know where to start with a comparison that inane.
I guess I'll just note that we had a discussion of the movie here and if those who read and participated are Nazis than I'm Bill O'Reilly's secret crack ho wife.
And that brings me to reason #41,888 you can't trust anything you see or hear on Fox News: This "story," complete with doctored photo, inaccurate info and all.
Ed/Pub:LM
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Winston Jen
Excellent post, Scott. Outfoxed is an excellent movie. Unfortunately, as long as uncaring executives are in power, there will never be any real balance on the 'news' channel.
2 - Steve S
welcome to BlogCritics. I think I will like you here. Be prepared for the flames, they will get intense.
3 - Al Barger
SCOTT: YOU SUCK, YOU DIRTY NAZI BASTARD!!!
Ok not really. That was just to make you feel welcome to the Blogcritics family. As my hero Elvis Costello said, you're nobody till everybody in this town thinks you're a bastard.
Welcome to the club.
By the way, as the head Blogcritic rightwing nutjob (libertarian branch), I deny Bill O'goddam'Reilly. He ain't any kind of "conservative" as I understand the term. He's off on his own, so far as I'm concerned. He's NOT one of us. By my lights, he'd be better described as a FLAMING LIBERAL.
OK, I know YOU don't want to claim him, and it's a little unfair to fob him off on y'all. But I don't want him either.
4 - 1Potato
More partisan monotony. Who cares what the talking idiot heads say anyway? Give us some fresh ideas/solutions, not whining about some crap Oreilly or Jerry Fallwell said.
What should we do about Al Queda, etc., who have been striking at us for many years now?
Should we give up fighting the Mafia because we haven't wiped them out, most likely never will completely wipe them out and cannot easily identify all their members?
5 - Al Barger
1Potato: In fairness, it's a legitimate bitch when the biggest name in cable news goes around casually calling people Nazis for little or no reason.
Yes, there are greater problems than Bill O'Reilly, but that doesn't mean that anything of less critical importance than Al Qaeda should be ignored.
6 - billy
i dont like bush's analogy to WWII at all. namely because WWII was started as a war of aggression, ie pearl harbor. unless he is trying to say shock and awe on iraq was the equivalent of the japanese attacking pearl harbor (doctrine of pre-emption). is bush calling us nazis?
7 - Winston Jen
Thanks for the welcome, Steve. I've also posted in one of the older threads about Terri Schiavo.
As for what to do about Al-qaeda, why don't we send Robertson and Falwell to preach to them? No weapons for the Xian fundies - god's meant to protect them anyway.
8 - Scott Butki
Wow. This is much more feedback than I get at my blog.
Thanks for the welcome, from both the libs, the repubs and everyone in between.
I don't have a solution to Al-Queda - I just know that fighting terror with terror doesn't seem to me to make any more sense than killing people (death penalty) for killing people.
As far as talking heads and nutjobs I read at DCMediaGirl that Bernard Goldberg - another idiot I complain about periodically - has described himself as an old school liberal:
http://dcmediagirl.com/index.php?entry=entry20050827-105358
As a liberal, I say, "We don't want you on our team."
Of course I say the same thing about Michael Moore and nothing seems to get rid of him either.
9 - JELIEL
Wait till the squads come out for a flame war, then you'll a lot more comments =)
From one newcomer to another welcome aboard.
10 - Bob A. Booey
All of you should take this test to see if you would have been a Nazi in 1930s Germany and tell us what you get. My results follow the link -- I thought for sure I would have been part of Le Resistance, but I'm merely an Expatriate like Einstein.
"Would You Have Been a Nazi?" Test
The Expatriate
Achtung! You are 30% brainwashworthy, 22% antitolerant, and 23% blindly patriotic Congratulations! You are not susceptible to brainwashing, your values and cares extend beyond the borders of your own country, and your Blind Patriotism ("patriotism" for short) does not reach unhealthy levels. In Germany in the 30s, you would've left the country.
One bad scenario -- as I hypothetically project you back in time -- is that you just wouldn't have cared one way or the other about Nazism. Maybe politics don't interest you enough. But the fact that you took this test means they probably do. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt.
Did you know that many of the smartest Germans departed prior to the beginning of World War II, because they knew some evil shit was brewing? Brain Drain. Many of them were scientists. It is very possible you could be one of them, depending on your age.
Conclusion: Born and raised in Germany in the early 1930's, you would not have been a Nazi.
You scored higher than 40% on brainwashworthy
You scored higher than 25% on antitolerant
You scored higher than 31% on patriotic
That is all.
11 - Scott Butki
Hey, lately I've been sending track backs to military blogs when speaking in favor of Cindy Sheehan and opposing the war so I'm ready.... or crazy... or both.
12 - Dave Nalle
Your title: "I'm a Nazi?"
Your description of what Bush said: "President Bush speaking to a veteran's group where he equated the fight against Nazis in World War II with America's hunt for terrorists"
So based on this, you concluded that you're a Nazi because you're a terrorist? That's the only logical way to go from your description of Bush's speech to your title. So, what terror groups do you belong to? Who are you planning to bomb first?
Or perhaps was your analysis just a teeny, weeny bit off, and in fact Bush made a sensible comparison between one war against tyrranical and terroristic states and another.
Dave
13 - Bob A. Booey
Dave Nalle, your right-wing knee-jerk outrage turns me on, you sexy white male you. I bet your Level 4 Dungeonmaster days brought out the beast in you.
That is all.
14 - Dave Nalle
I was way higher than a level 4 dungeonmaster.
But my outrage here isn't right-wing, it's just common sense. Why should I encourage Butki by letting him get away with saying ridiculous and contradictory things?
This is the most ridiculously partisan and error filled post I've seen in quite a while here on BC.
Here's another example:
"Now first of all, since when do liberals get lumped in with crazy conservative evangelists? Silly me, I thought O'Reilly's political views were closer to Robertson and Falwell than, say, me."
They get lumped in together because they use the same tactics and have the same irrational motivations. Both hold beliefs which are supported solely by faith and not by reason or logic and pursue those beliefs fanatically, be they the mythology of evolution or the mythology of the welfare state.
Dave
15 - Bob A. Booey
Dave, never mind all that. Take my Nazi test. And get John Bambenek and the Senator Al Barger to do so as well and let me know what you boys get -- he's scared of me for some reason and runs terrified whenever I respond to his silly posts.
That is all.
16 - Al Barger
Dave, the Nazi thing would seem to be most specifically referring to O'Reilly bitching about anyone who likes the Outfoxed documentary. I'll give Scott that one.
However, Bush invoking WWII does not seem completely unreasonable. We are fighting some wicked fascistic sonsabitches who are trying to kill us in droves.
Plus, we WERE attacked a bunch of other times over the last 20 years, obviously most notably on 9/11- which seems considerably worse than Pearl Harbor, which was at least a military target. We can argue about just how much Iraq has to do with the war on terror, but damned if we ain't up to our asses in Al Qaeda in the middle of Iraq.
Sending pro-Sheehan track backs to military blogs, that's nice. Go ahead, poke the bear.
17 - Bob A. Booey
Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq before the war. And most of the insurgents aren't even al Qaeda, they're disaffected Sunnis. The sooner we realize that, the better our chances for a viable country that doesn't split into pieces once we leave.
I know we're being very loose with words in our ignorant Internet outrage here boys, but al Qaeda is not fascist. Fascism is a specific political system centered on central, authoritarian control of economic and political systems. Any self-respecting commentator on foreign affairs will tell you that the reason the war on terror has been so difficult to fight is because terror knows no real borders and isn't affiliated with the traditional nation-state. Sure, the war on Afghanistan deposed religious nutjobs ruling the country there. But political leaders in the Arab world are not terrorists and vice versa. If you are unable to grasp that distinction, the hope of ever having credibility or support in fighting terror in the Middle East is a lost cause. And some of our "allies" in the region are the biggest hosts of terror, or at least turn a blind eye to it while assuring us that we have their support at the same time.
Hitler wasn't a terrorist, he was an imperialist. Terror isn't about states and anyone who thinks it is won't have anything helpful to say in winning the war on terror. Terror (of the kind we fight today) is meant to bring down states or to force states to withdraw from the religious affairs of a specific, militant minority of Muslim believers. It's isn't a war on Islam as a whole or on all Muslim states, because that's not a war that can ever be won or one that we're undertaking.
We won't, for example, challenge Saudi Arabia and Pakistan on their coddling of terrorists despite the fact that those are perhaps the two greatest hotbeds of terror today and leading up to 9/11. Why? Because the issue of their alliance as nation-states gets in the way of our pursuing terrorists within their borders.
Iraq only became a front for the war on terror because it was so universally hated a war throughout the Middle East. And it's not the only front -- it's spin whenever someone tells you that winning against the insurgents in Iraq deals a death blow to al Qaeda. There's much more we have to do, unfortunately, and Iraq is making things worse rather than better in the rest of the Middle East. It is, for example, a big reason why we have NO SUBSTANTIVE ROLE in the diplomacy occuring between Israel and Palestine currently -- we've completely lost the reputation we had as an honest broker in the region for over 30 years.
That is all.
18 - Bob A. Booey
To be pedantic Dave Nalle-style, Hitler was both an imperialist and an irredentist, more specifically.
That is all.
19 - Steve S
Dave and Bob, DungeonMasters do not have levels. They are omnipotent.
That is all.
20 - Celeste O.
Bob A, your Nazi test was amusing, even if the answers were a titty bit predictable. Damn proud I am to only be 23% brainwashworthy. I never should have said I was occasionally a pushover.
21 - Bob A. Booey
Celeste said "titty." Heh heh.
What did you get for your answer? Were you an Expatriate too?
That is all.
22 - Scott Butki
I didn't say that Bush called me a Nazi.
What I said was, "I'm a Nazi?"
That is based on O'Reilly saying, that if you support the movie then you are... wait, let me just go back to the part I excerpted:
Those who believe that Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch’s War on Journalism "tells the truth about this [Fox News] network" took their place alongside those who "agree with Reverends [Jerry] Falwell and [Pat] Robertson that gays and abortionists caused God to allow 9-11"; those who "agree that Allah is OK with slaughtering civilians"; and those who "admire the philosophy of the Third Reich."
Before you attack me for misunderstanding something you might want to make sure you don't misunderstand it yourself.
Falwell, Robertson and O'Reilly vote Republican and bash those who are not.
While O'Reilly can try to distance himself from them, lumping them in with the makers of a movie criticizing the Fox network... well, it just seems an odd coupling.
23 - Scott Butki
Ew, on second thought make that "odd grouping."
I can just hear all three of those men screaming with outrage that I suggested they were coupling
24 - Dave Nalle
>>Dave, the Nazi thing would seem to be most specifically referring to O'Reilly bitching about anyone who likes the Outfoxed documentary. I'll give Scott that one.<<
Well, after watching Outfoxed I did expect to see Goebels in the credits. The thing was pure propaganda. I'd call it Nazi too, except that the Nazis made better, more effective propaganda films.
Dave
25 - Dave Nalle
I took Babs test despite the tedious spam it signed me up for. It was moderately amusing. I'm apparently going to be part of The Resistence and blow up Nazi trains or somesuch.
I rated - 15% brainwashworthy, 22% antitolerant, and 52% blindly patriotic
I did find some of the questions a bit slanted though.
Dave