Things can change really fast in six weeks. As autumn began, it was almost certain that a Democrat, probably Hillary Clinton, would be elected president in the next election. A friend of mine told me that he was so sure the Democrats would take over the presidency that if they didn’t, he would gladly run naked through a church. Thanks to Democrat idol Elliot Spitzer, who had the “brilliant” idea of granting drivers licenses to illegal immigrants, my friend can now look forward to prison while the Democrats may have to wait until the Republicans launch another uncalled for war in order to take the presidency.
In 2004, the Republicans brilliantly sidestepped the war by making gay marriage the main issue. One may laugh at this now, given that Republican spokesperson Bill O’Reilly was caught in phone sex tapes detailing talk that could be construed as homoerotic, beloved Republican Mark Foley was caught playing pin the penis with underage boys, and Larry Craig – well, you know. The main point is that the Republicans brilliantly used this issue to win an election. Now, is gay marriage really the “threat” to society that Republicans made it out to be? Are Dorothy styled weddings really going to hurt anybody? Is giving the same rights to people, regardless of their sexual preference and love of Barbara Streisand, going to bring down society? The answer is an easy “No!” but Republicans were very smart to make people think otherwise.
Flash forward three years later. George W. Bush’s ratings are lower than low while opposition to the war in Iraq has doubled since the last election. Gee, what can Republicans do to sidestep their failures this time? Two words: Illegal Immigration. The only difference between 2004 and 2007 is that unlike gay marriage, illegal immigration is actually a huge threat to our society. Although I could barely say the word “Republican” a year ago, I would gladly vote for the Republican candidate who promises to do something about illegal immigration, the biggest travesty to hit our country since slavery.
I know there are people reading this, screaming “RACIST!” After all, calling somebody a racist these days has become a cliché, just as calling someone a communist was in the 1950s. Actually, I was one of those, ten years ago, who thought that people against illegal immigration were racists. That was right around the time I moved to Southern California and landed my first teaching job at a school in Costa Mesa, one that housed a huge illegal immigrant student population. I was honored to teach these students and even learned Spanish in order to help them. When I saw how much these students and their families devalued education, my opinion started to change.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Dave Nalle
I can tell from the article that you clearly expect people to start calling you 'racist' and that you think that would somehow be unfair.
But when you start to use the rhetoric and the deceits that the racist nativists are using, you shouldn't be surprised to be lumped in with them.
For example, you keep referring to what was proposed to deal with the illegal alien problem as an 'amnesty' bill, when it was clearly nothing of the kind. Even the worst versions of the bill included clear procedures for limiting illegal immigration and stringent procedures by which former illegals could apply for citizenship behind other immigrants. Hardly the blanket amnesty you describe.
You also say "Bush’s plan to give amnesty to millions of criminals who entered our land unlawfully" when one of the provisions also in EVERY version of the immigration bill was improved enforcement and tracking to keep truly criminal immigrants out of the country.
In point of fact, without immigration reforms and a more structured method of tracking immigrants, we can't identify which are criminals and which are not, and by opposing immigration reform you're helping to perpetuate the current inadequate system which lets criminals in and turns desirable potential immigrants into criminals.
Like so many who are hot and bothered about this issue, you don't seem to have thought the implications of your position through.
Dave
2 - Fabrizio Gentili
Considering that the Mexican and South American portion of the undocumented immigrants accounts for just a little over 60% of the entire undocumented population, to generalize the issue as a racial issue is wrong in so many ways and from so many points of view.
Of course when the racial bias segregates a large part of this 60%, it creates a flourishing ground for the even smaller percentage of individuals who turn to criminal environments as they are more welcoming to them as the rest of society is.
It's true there are over 12 million that are in this country living and working without proper documentation, but like american citizens they are victims of a broken immigration law system that forces so many industries to employ willing workers to do jobs that even if the rest of the americans would get up their fat ass and be willing to do, would still not be enough to cover all the farming, healthcare, service and so many industries' need.
with an unemployment at 4%( a might be wrong by few points), a simple math will show that once the undocumented are removed, the economy would collapse for black hole left behind and the millions of jobs that would be left vacant.
So if instead of marginalizing and politicizing this issue Congress would actually address the complicated and emotional issue of re-writing the immigration regulation to reflect the needs of the people of this country allowing the demand for labour to be legally matched with the available labour, that does come form people willing to contribute to this country at the best that they are offered, then you would see that only when out of the shadows and integrated in society, "these" people would not be the enemy that the most bigots are depicting them to be.
For as wrong as the gangs are, and the enforcement of the law should be followed to extreme extent in those cases, they still are for many of the marginalized undocumented the only welcoming arms they find once they are here.
Every individual will do good if given the opportunity.
But every individual will do wrong if given no other choice.
The immigration system has been broken for several years now, even before Bush wanted to regularize the status of million of contributors that by being kept in the shadows create the perfect cloud behind which I don't as you don't as no one does not know what could hide behind.
3 - Charlotte
For the truth check out our trailer on Gay Marriage. Produced to educate & defuse the controversy it has a way of opening closed minds & creates an interesting spin on the issue: www.OUTTAKEonline.com
4 - Dave Nalle
Fabrizio, stop posting stuff that's blatantly, obviously true. You're just going to piss off the anti-immigrant fanatics with their inability to refute your simple common sense.
Dave
5 - Andy Marsh
Dave - In point of fact, all immigrants that enter this country illegally are criminals. Makes it real easy to figure out which ones are criminals and which ones aren't. The ones that come in LEGALLY aren't...the ones that come in ILLEGALLY are criminals. Seems pretty simple to me!
6 - Bettybb
Great article.
And you are correct, the Hispanic culture does not value education. A report came out about immigrants. Most immigrants by the second generation are off to college. It takes 4 generations before the Hispanic Americans get high school diplomas.
Why is this important? Paul Samuelson, the economist, has pointed out that we must select our immigrants, and take the brightest and best who put more into an ecomony than they take out. Then we can have a few low skilled immigrants who will need to be carried for a generation.
Of course, the Hispanic -American culture does not change, that means society is carry these citizens for 3 generations rather than one. Very costly.
But note, Rudy is NOT tough on illegal immigration. He will give amnesty for those already here. I am a 20 year plus Dem voter who will vote Repub this time around, and I hope that the candidate will be Romney or, if that fails, Thompson. Tancredo and Hunter are too extreme on other issues. So is Thompson really.
But illegal immigration is the no. one issue facing our country.
Mr. Gentili:
You are incorrect. All the illegal aliens' Days without Immigrants showed that they are totally irrelevant to our economy, not even a blimp on the radar screen. Besides, how long would it take us to replace 12 million illegals with 12 million legals from around the world? About a week?
Americans are taking the jobs that are left vacant when ICE picks up illegals. Of course the employers have to pay American wages and take the deductions and pay workers comp etc. They are unhappy. They prefer cheap illegal labor. Too bad.
Sure we need to redo our immigration system. One, we must do away with family reunification and anchor babies. We must go with people who have the knowledge and skills we need. Also, we already have a system of generalized quotas for each area of the world. Latin Americans are given about double the amount. That is unfair and must change.
Of course like Europe we must ensure that employers are not just looking for cheaper labor. There must be continuing monitoring of business claiming it needs immmigrant labor to ensure that they are paying American level wages, and benefits and in fact no Americans are available for the job.
And we must enforce our laws so that all the illegals self deport. If they have not engaged in arny other crime other than crossing the border and working, then they can apply legally just like everyone else in the world. But if they have ignored a court order, or come back after being deported, or engaged in ID theft, or fraud, they are out for good.
I know, you are going to yell, bigot! Racist! Why? Because I believe in the rule of alw. One law for everyone, applied equally. The illegal aliens want preferential treamtent. No way.
Guess what? I myself have been an illegal immigrant in another country. I understand the frustrations with any immigration system. However, what I don't understand is the attitude of the illegals in America; arrogant, demanding, whinny, even though they have not a leg to stand on. Unbelievable. We are even hearing "threats" of a Latino Infitada if they don't get what they want. Othewise known as a tantrum. Of course, that will just make Americans more determined to take back our country, and reinforce the idea that these illegal aliens are not cut out to be Americans - they have no respect for America, Americans or our laws.
Dave:
Sorry, you are incorrect. Bush's amnesty did did have a provision to check for criminals, ... it all had to be done within one day. Right. A total impossiblity. Every murderer, rapist, theft, gangbanber would have been given the z visa with the right to be here and get citizenship. It was one of the points that turned people against the amesnty bill.
Two, it was amnesty. Was anyone going to jail and serve the full term for their crimes? Nope. That means amnesty. All they had to do is pay a couple tthousand bucks and 15 years from now sign up for an English class (no need to actually take it).
How many people worldwide do you think would jump at such an offer?.... it is insulting to American citizenship it is so puny.
7 - Clavos
"And you are correct, the Hispanic culture does not value education."
First of all, there is no such thing as "the Hispanic culture." There are more than 20 Latin American countries, each with its own unique culture.
Second. The oldest university in the Americas is the National Autonomous University of Mexico, in Mexico City. Strange that a culture that "does not value education" would establish the first university (By more 75 years) in the New World.
8 - handyguy
This article is not only offensive and hateful...it reads like an essay written by a not particularly well informed 8th grader.
The jocular tone taken toward the GOP's 'brilliant' use of gay marriage in 2004 serves no good purpose and is grossly oversimplified political analysis as well.
And by the time we get to this little gem, the level of intellect we are confronting is dismayingly clear:
I joked to someone that we will soon see murderers, pedophiles, arsonists and others march for their “rights” too. She thought that the comparison was a little extreme, but saw the point I was trying to make. [Good for her; the rest of us are still waiting for your 'point.']
The other side of this argument is that there already are many thousands of immigrants here, and many of them are doing jobs that I bet cute little Daryl wouldn't be caught dead doing. Mass deportations and/or arrests are both impractical and grossly inhumane. That's the reason people as different as John McCain, Elliot Spitzer, and, yes, George Bush have looked for a sane alternative, only to be turned on by the loudest, most extreme [but not most numerous] voices.
This may indeed be a major issue in some Republican primary states, where extremist slogans count for more than they should, and people like Daryl and Andy Marsh would feel right at home. But any general election candidate who decided to give a speech that reads like this miserable article would have his head handed to him. And rightfully so.
9 - Dr Dreadful
It's kind of ironic that the one issue on which I agree with Bush wholeheartedly is also the one which Congress - both Republican and Democratic - has most strenuously opposed him on.
The Democrats do recognize this as a hot-button issue and I don't think they have any intention of being caught napping as they were with the gay marriage pallaver. Sadly, there's probably no-one in the Party who can express the opposing argument with as much clarity and persuasiveness as Dave and Fabrizio have.
Couple of other things. My wife's best friend teaches elementary school in a small town with a large population of undocumented immigrants, and her experience is quite different from Daryl's. While there are some bad apples, most of the parents are effusively grateful that their children are getting a (perceived) good education. Thinking long-term, it's a way out of poverty for their families.
And finally - what?? - Elliot Spitzer is going to singlehandedly destroy the Democrats' chances of winning the presidency? Come on, Daryl. Apart from the rather significant fact that he's now dropped the idea, how about you take a random sample of ten voting-age Americans and find out how many of those ten even know who the man is, let alone what he proposed.
10 - daryl d
Wait a second, I never generalized and said that all Hispanics don't generalize education. My sister in law is a third generation Hispanic and she has a Master's Degree. My niece is attending UCLA right now. A lot of other Hispanics do. The illegal immigrant population, however, doesn't and I'll stick ot my theory from experience.
11 - Dr Dreadful
Bettybb, you appear to believe that the INS operates in some sort of alternate universe where bureaucratic time occupies its own special dimension.
You claim that the US could admit 12 million legal aliens in a week, but dismiss the idea that criminal background checks on immigrants could be done in a day.
Pretty effective job of dismantling your own argument there. Well done.
12 - Andy Marsh
handyguy - I promise you that this isn't an issue that I would use to pick a candidate for anything, I was just making the point that Dave can't seem to identify who the criminals are here and whatever name you want to use for them, they're here illegally. And where I come from, illegal means the same thing as criminal.
You may prefer the term undocumented...I guess if someone gets pulled over without a drivers license we can call them undocumented drivers?
Back in the day, when my grandfather came to this country, they dealt with people WithOutPapers...They still went through the process of becoming documented...even if it came with the unofficial name WOP attached...
The governor of NY wanted to give illegals drivers licenses...I guess he wants to give them insurance too???? Ever been in a car accident with an "undocumented" worker before? You better have uninsured motorist coverage too!!!
I personally have no problem with folks coming to this country to try to make a better life for themselves...the question is, why can't they go through the process like everyone else? Is it because the process is to hard...time consuming??? Requires one to learn a little english...hell not even english...american would be good enough!
Maybe we should just open the borders wide...let any tomdickorharry in to do whatever they want to do?
I don't have the answer...but pretending that undocumented isn't criminal surely can't be it!
13 - handyguy
Spitzer's idea wasn't as cockamamie as it's been made to appear. It was an attempt to deal with reality rather than with what we may wish were reality. The idea was that the policy would improve public safety by bringing immigrants out of the shadows and reduce insurance costs as more immigrants obtained licenses and car insurance.
This argument reminds me of the way Americans think about and deal with teenage sex. Teenagers are going to have sex, so let's deal with that reality and tell them how to be safer and more responsible about it. Instead, many parents and politicians want to pretend that teaching abstinence is the way to go...thus ignoring the teens [nearly all] who can't/won't succeed in practicing abstinence. The result of this Denial-as-Policy is to increase teen pregnancy and teen STDs.
The aliens are already here and they are going to keep coming. Let's look for a sane, reasonable, humane way to deal with that instead of rabble-rousing.
14 - AndiMedi
A number of the arguments deployed by those opposed to legal and illegal immigration are worth examining and the concept of “anchor babies” is instructive.
Describing people who come to this country and have children in order to gain legal immigration status invokes a number of the underlying hot button aspects of our current immigration chaos that are quite effective from a rhetorical standpoint. Clearly anyone doing this is trying to cheat or game the system, possibly gets benefits they don’t deserve, is using human life strategically for their own gain, and does not share our values.
But the concept of “anchor babies,” like “welfare queens,” “sanctuary cities,” and even WMD, doesn’t hold up very well under scrutiny.
Assume someone comes to this country and gives birth to a U.S. citizen. After 21 years, that child could begin the application process for permanent residence status for their parents, older siblings, and any of their children not born here. They would then wait an additional five years, depending on the country of origin and relationship to the person they are petitioning for to get a visa, with typical waits lasting much longer. For parents and siblings, the processing wait for a legal visa can last up to 22 years, again, depending on the country.
Once the visa is available, if the person for whom it was obtained has been outside the US this entire time, they could come legally. If they had been in the country, they face an additional minimum of three years, but more often than that, a 10 year bar from entering legally.
In the meantime, the parents and other non-citizen family members have no relief from deportation, would most likely be denied a tourist or other visa, and are limited in their eligibility for public benefits to what can be applied for on the basis of the citizenship of the child, and in rarer circumstances, a legal permanent-non-citizen in their family unit. All the while, like most illegal immigrants (60-75% by most estimates), paying federal withholding taxes and other taxes.
So while the concept of “anchor babies” has rhetorical power and is often used on the menu of those opposed to immigration in general and illegal immigration in particular, its validity as a strategy to game the system is suspect (having a child in order to receive an immigration benefit 26-50+ years down the road).
This has been an interesting message board, more civil and information-based than many, so while I know many will push back on the information above, I hope others will considerate it useful.
15 - Andy Marsh
Well, I read just the other day that criminal penalties for crack are going to be put in line with regular coke...so, our prisons should have a lot of openings soon...
Like I said...call them what you want...aliens...undocumented...do we just pretend that everything's okeydokey??? Whether they're here performing a service or not, they got here illegally!
Okay, how about this...we'll do one of those statute of limitations things...if they've been here more than 7 years illegally...and just for me I need to throw this in too...and they have a basic understanding of the language we speak here, then they can stay.
But we can't use this logic...Don't worry about not playing by the rules...we'll give you anything you want as long as you stay here and do the jobs we don't wanna do!!! Sorry, that's a crock of shit!
You really believe because you give someone a drivers license that's gonna MAKE them get insurance too...who's skipping out on reality here???
16 - Bettybb
Nope. The illegals are not going to keep coming. America has spoken. It might take some time as Bush is playing games, but the fence will be up, and the border guards doubled, and the national guard will be posted.
Is it inhumane for Mexico to deport illegals? It deports more illegals each year than the USA ! And it rounds people up. Hmmm.....
No, it is not inhumane to round up illegals and deport them. They are criminals. That is what happens to criminals.
The problem is the illegals actually think they are important to the USA. They are not. But they have been told by La Raza to yell racism at every opportunity. Sometimes it is funny, because the person being interview does it of context.
There is a new study out. Legal immigrants normaly by generation 2, are producing kids going to college. The Hispanic Immigrants aren't even getting high school diplomas until generation 4 ! They are as capable as anyone else. But their culture is such that they don't value education, and parent support once they hit teen their teens, evaporates. The Mexican gov is trying to change this mentality.
17 - Bettybb
DR. Dreadful:
You are splitting hairs.
If the USA needed to get 12 million legal immigrants in one week, it could be done.
With background checks, and with medical checks and following all the normal rules. The embassies in 140 countries around the world could have their staffs increased, and given priority to process immigrants.
Do not forget how many legal immigrants are in the pipeline and have already gone through all of these procedures. And any admission could be conditional on completion if not info could be obtained (except medical - have to pass medical to get it).
President Eisenhower was able in 4 months with 700 men to round up and deport 1.5 million Mexicans.
All it takes is organization and the will to do it.
18 - Bettybb
Andi:
Interesting post on anchor babies. I had not realized that it does not guarantee the criminal parents get in faster than normal.
19 - Dr Dreadful
You are splitting hairs.
No, I'm pointing out your complete lack of logic, which your response only reinforces.
If the USA needed to get 12 million legal immigrants in one week, it could be done.
Well, let's see. I'm a legal immigrant and it took five months for the London embassy to process my visa application, then the INS wanted me to wait another three months for a work permit (until I got cross because that's not what the information on their website said), and it took them two years to grant me permanent residency.
any admission could be conditional on completion
I assume by this you mean criminal background checks could wait. Meantime, by the time the check came back positive, the alien would most likely have disappeared into the heartland, as many illegals currently do.
President Eisenhower was able in 4 months with 700 men to round up and deport 1.5 million Mexicans.
Yet you expect the INS to process eight times as many people sixteen times as fast.
All it takes is organization and the will to do it.
And money. Have you any conception of how many extra people the INS and the State Department would need to hire, how much of the resources of the FBI and CIA would need to be diverted, and how much the immigration service would still be relying on the essential background checks from the country of origin?
Somehow I can't see Joe Taxpayer being willing to eat all of that cost.
Not to mention how we are supposed to actually physically get all those people here, all in one week? Ships aren't fast enough and I severely doubt there are that many planes in the US commercial fleet.
You're living in fantasy land.
20 - Las Vegas
Wow, all the comments and so different. I am against illegal immigration in every way. Whether they cross the border illegally or come legally, but overstay their visa and worst of all, the ones that work without a valid work authorization visa and then have their anchor babies and demand that they must stay because America is separating them from their children. America is separating anyone, they have the rights to keep their children with them, just not here.
Illegals always claim that America wants to kick them out and their children will have to go to a country that they don't even know. Well, when they first came here, did they know America? What about their young children that they brought over illegally? Did they already know English or the Country? Of course not, but they learned and they can learn again.
Let's rid our country of this parasite and go on with building a wonderful life and dream, but not for all 3rd world people who are "just looking for work." I'm so sick of hearing it. There is work in Mexico and other countries, they may have to move around to find it, but it is a big country.
21 - Dave Nalle
Dave - In point of fact, all immigrants that enter this country illegally are criminals. Makes it real easy to figure out which ones are criminals and which ones aren't. The ones that come in LEGALLY aren't...the ones that come in ILLEGALLY are criminals. Seems pretty simple to me!
So criminals are criminals, right? So the next time you get pulled over for speeding it would be just fine to have you tried and sentenced to death? After all, you're a criminal, just like a murderer or a rapist. You could have kept your car below the speed limit.
Simple is as simple does.
Dave
22 - Jerry
Clavos, Re:#7 -
I didn't want to get in on this, but I know you are too smart and articulate for that post. How can you correlate the establishment of a university a few hundred years ago, in the social and economic center of Mexico, with the illegal immigrants we see flooding in? For that matter, what bearing does modern Mexico's educational institutions have on the mind-set of Mexican border crossers?
The lack of educational interest on the part of Hispanics in general (I also see this in Hispanics with roots in America going back for centuries) is more a result of accepted social mores pertaining to Hispanics (not because they are brown, by the way). There is nothing necessarily wrong with this, hence, many will do jobs Americans won't do, and are happy with that....at least until La Raza gets ahold of them and brainwashes them into believing whitey is ruining their lives.
Those who are citizens, and even non-citizens in some cases have every opportunity to get an education, from grade 1 through college; problem is many are just not interested.
23 - Ray Ellis
I've said this before, but this thread illustrates my contention that the biggest threat to the United States are white, lower middle class rednecks. I'm talking about that group of people that spent their achool years underachieving on every front, who saw people who strove as elitists, who blamed all their own shortcomings as some government conspiracy favoring minorities, and who looked for a mouthpiece to articulate their frustrations and find a convenient scapegoat for them.
The author of this article has stated on more than one occasion that getting attention is the most important aspect of writing. He's succeeded.
He's attracted the audience of the numbly fearful, the people who know it's somebody's fault, but not theirs, the people who's rather bitch than accept responsibility.
We might want to come up with a better solution than "them vs. us".
24 - Dave Nalle
Ray, I think you're dead on up to a point. Where you miss the target is that these rabid nativists don't seem to actually come from the white redneck population. I know a lot of those folks. They actually get on pretty well with Mexicans. The largest numbers of nativists seem to come from the working and middle class population of the states where there are few illegals and few Mexicans for that matter. They're the same midwestern industrial workers who were the backbone of the KKK revival in the 1920s and again in the 1970s. Working class, perhaps, but more likely to belong to a union than to work on a farm.
Dave
25 - Jerry
"They're the same midwestern industrial workers who were the backbone of the KKK revival in the 1920s and again in the 1970s. Working class, perhaps, but more likely to belong to a union than to work on a farm".
Dave, rabid nativist that I am, I only meet one of your point of criteria, that is the "get on pretty well" part. You and Ray are so far in left field it isn't even worth trying to debate you.
I stand on solid ground with the other 70% of Americans on this issue.