Illegally crossing the border into the United States is a crime. No question about it. Those who do it are criminals and they ought to be punished. But how bad is their crime and what is an appropriate punishment?
| "My object all sublime I shall achieve in time To let the punishment fit the crime The punishment fit the crime; And make each prisoner pent Unwillingly represent A source of innocent merriment! Of innocent merriment!" - W. S. Gilbert in The Mikado |
| "It is not, what a lawyer tells me I may do; but what humanity, reason, and justice, tell me I ought to do." - Edmund Burke |
Not so long ago here in Texas you could be hanged for being caught with a concealed set of wire cutters and yet you could shoot an armed man in the street and stand a fair chance of doing no time in jail. In all of these cases our modern laws are the exact opposite of what they were only a few generations ago.
If you go even farther back in time the differences in what is a crime and what is not a crime become even more pronounced. The same is true from culture to culture in our contemporary world. In some parts of the world currently getting a lot of attention you can beat your wife to death and invite the relatives to help and get away with it, but if you change religion it's off with your head.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - sonja valentine
Thank you for your article.
2 - alethinos59
Great post Dave. Very thorough. Thank you very much.
Althinos
3 - Samuel James
Some great thoughts Dave. Very good article
4 - chantal stone
"...it is the nature of humanity to pursue employment wherever it is available and to strive to advance themselves..."
Very well said, Dave. Where does government get off trying to legislate human nature?
I understand illegal immigration is not as simplistic as that, but as you stated, Dave, the punishment needs to fit the crime.
5 - Samuel James
"Where does government get off trying to legislate human nature?"
Uhh... Well, let's assume that they didn't. What would be the results?
1) Pervasive anarchy
2) Murder, rape, and abusive behavior galore
3) An overall war for indivdual supremacy
Good enough?
6 - chantal stone
Samuel...I see your point, but those are extreme examples of the point I was trying to make. I was talking about what Dave said in reference to the nature of man wanting a better life for self and family.
Does that clarify?
...hope so.
7 - Victor Plenty
Human nature includes the urge to be creative as well as the urge to be destructive. Well made laws encourage the productive, creative, and useful impulses which are natural to humans, while punishing only those impulses which cause direct harm. Excessive reliance on bad laws produces anarchy, murder, rape, and war at least as often as these things result from failure to create good laws.
In light of these facts, Chantal and Dave have both put forward cogent and relevant points. Samuel's objection relies on a misunderstanding of those points, and thus fails to refute them.
(Of course, this is just one guy's opinion.)
8 - Samuel James
How So?
I was responding to Chantal's now-clarified statement that government has no right to legislate human nature. Of course they do; they have to.
9 - Dave Nalle
Government can TRY to legislate human nature, but the result is usually a disaster. I'd argue that it is not human nature to be inherently vicious, to kill others or to abuse them. The ability to rise above those things is what makes us human rather than animals.
Dave
10 - sal m
if paying the fine for sneaking in - and then being allowed to apply for citizenship without further penalty - is all the punishment that will be meted out, the united states will be overrun.
sneak in, "get caught," pay your fine and get in line!
this makes a mockery of immigration laws and is an insult to anyone - and their ancestors - who struggled to get into this country and did so by the book.
i don't think anyone should be charged with a felony for an individual case of sneaking in. but there should be a penalty for sneaking in, and paying a fine which will then allow you to enter the system is not a penalty but an inducement to sneak in!
if you sneak in and get caught you pay a small fine, get sent home and cannot apply for citizenship for a 2 year period. if you get caught a second time, or using fake id, the penalties become more severe.
11 - Joey
Dave, are you suggesting that our Republic is not legislating human nature? Or, that it tries to control poor human nature.
Bastiat's "The Law" Chapter 1 states that:
A Fatal Tendency of Mankind
“Self-preservation and self-development are common aspirations among all people. And if everyone enjoyed the unrestricted use of his faculties and the free disposition of the fruits of his labor, social progress would be ceaseless, uninterrupted, and unfailing.
But there is also another tendency that is common among people. When they can, they wish to live and prosper at the expense of others. This is no rash accusation. Nor does it come from a gloomy and uncharitable spirit. The annals of history bear witness to the truth of it: the incessant wars, mass migrations, religious persecutions, universal slavery, dishonesty in commerce, and monopolies. This fatal desire has its origin in the very nature of man -- in that primitive, universal, and insuppressible instinct that impels him to satisfy his desires with the least possible pain.”
Call it what you will...I call it controlling human nature.
As you are well aware, Bastiat is BASIC, we’re talking Law 101 here. It is taught up front/first thing in every legal curriculum. Bastiat made it perfectly clear. His writing on this subject IS the legal standard.
I guess Plato’s The Republic is another foundational treatise when explaining law.
So how can this particular BLOG stray from the foundation?
12 - Neo
Statistically 1/5th of Mexico's population resides in the U.S... The other blog posted this URL, read it... it is a thread that is starting to develop around this topic of discussion.
Mexico does not have to improve anything. Just export it's citizen's here and enjoy the money that the ex-patriot's send home to help thier families.
13 - Dave Nalle
Joey, I'm not clear here on your use of Bastiat. You are aware, are you not, that the bit you quote supports my thesis in this article perfectly, right?
The desire to fight against human nature is more Hobbesian than anything else. Bastiat and the whole Romantic tradition would say we should make the laws fit human nature wherever possible, so long as the result is not the violation of anyone's rights.
Dave
14 - TLB
I stopped reading after a few sentences.
If every illegal alien simply stepped over the border and then immediately returned to their home country (Mexico or in the case of OTMs something else), then I'd agree with what is probably the point of this essay.
However, they don't just cross the border and then step back, they keep going.
That leads to a whole host of follow-on crimes, such as working illegally, being hired illegally, document forgery, identity theft, etc. etc.
And, it leads to financial problems in the U.S. and it encourages corruption the U.S.
And, it encourages all sorts of other problems, such as allowing people to come here who think this is their "homeland".
I'd suggest broadening your horizons a bit and looking at the big picture, which is rather disturbing.
15 - Dave Nalle
The 'big picture' is that our demand for labor draws these people to America. They wouldn't come here if there weren't jobs for them. We either have to figure out a way to accomodate our need and what they do in order to meet it, or figure out how to close the borders and do without them and all the problems that would create. Ultimately it's a lot more practical to go with the natural equilibrium. It's easier to redirect and harness the power of a raging river than it is do dam it.
Dave
16 - IgnatiusReilly
"It's not amnesty if you pay a fine."
Where does it say amnesty can't be bought, which essentially is what it amounts to? And what happens if they can't pay the fine?
If the immigrants are making the country more Amercian, then why are they waving Mexican flags at the demonstrations?
"The 'big picture' is that our demand for labor"
It's actually our demand for cheap labor, which is slightly different.
17 - IgnatiusReilly
Also, since you have no care for arbitrary lines on maps, I'm guessing your property has no fences and tht you let anyone walk across or pitch a tent in your yard as long as they don't hurt anyone.
What a humanitarian.
18 - lumpy
last I checked mexican immigrants weren't taking land from us and were in fact paying rent and through that real estate taxes. Keep America american in character by all means, but if someone wants to come here and work and either earn citizenship or eventually go home, who does it harm? Even with Mexicans in the labor pool I had to wait months to find a contractor with an opening in his schedule to build a new deck on my house because there's just too much construction work and not enough people to do it.
19 - Bliffle
First of all, the argument that "we need illegal immigrants because americans won't do that work" seems specious to me. There is no proof that this is true in any study that I've seen, and it goes against personal experience, where I've found it more propitious to hire a $65/hr. American Framer than supervise a $10/hr day laborer from the Home Depot parking lot.
Second, illegal immigrants DO have a deleterious effect on everyday life of US citizens. For example, in San Diego many residents of suburban areas complain of the illegals camping in the canyons: housewives are afraid to leave their homes or allow children to roam freely as children often do. Here on the SF Peninsula we have a chronic problem with meth labs in the wilderness surrounding the Crystal Springs reservoir, right here in a populated area, inhabited by illegals who live off the land, hunting illegally, and scaring the hell out of any casual hiker who happens upon them.
We don't need them and they are not harmless.
Any more arguments in favor of the illegals?
20 - Bliffle
Dave: "The 'big picture' is that our demand for labor draws these people to America. They wouldn't come here if there weren't jobs for them."
Not really, as the crowds of unemployed illegals littering the Home Depot parking lot all day will attest. The day is long past when a few good workers were scooped up by 9AM, so it required a homeowner (looking for casual help to clean up the garden) to get there about 8AM.
21 - RedTard
"Illegally immigrating, on the other hand, does no direct physical harm to anyone and benefits society "
It does harm by creating a subculture with a different languange and value system. Please explain to me one instance when this has ever in history been good for a nation. Also, theft and other 'arbitrary' property crimes do no direct physical harm either. Respect for law is the foundation of a civil society.
"The only thing that makes them criminals is the act of crossing an arbitrary line on a map."
If I see something better across the line inside your fortified compound so I cut a hole or tunnel my way in, plop down on your couch, take some pizza and beer form your fridge and mail your laptop to my family outside you'd probably be just a little upset.
Speaking of your compound in south Texas, how many illegals does it take to keep your place clean?
22 - Dave Nalle
It does harm by creating a subculture with a different languange and value system. Please explain to me one instance when this has ever in history been good for a nation. Also, theft and other 'arbitrary' property crimes do no direct physical harm either. Respect for law is the foundation of a civil society.
I didn't say they did no harm, just that it wasn't physical harm. Thus their punishment shouldn't be as extreme as it would be if they were killing and maiming people. An economic punishment is appropriate for a crime whose main impact is economic.
If I see something better across the line inside your fortified compound so I cut a hole or tunnel my way in, plop down on your couch, take some pizza and beer form your fridge and mail your laptop to my family outside you'd probably be just a little upset.
That's my private property. Except in the case of ranches on the border, the illegals aren't trespassing and stealing the property of individuals. They're coming here and living a law-abiding existence once they get here. Some few may not be, and they should go. But those who just come here to work should be respected for it.
Speaking of your compound in south Texas, how many illegals does it take to keep your place clean?
Actually, our maid is of irish-american ancestry. We had a guatamalan of ambiguous status working for us years ago, but she left because she had better job opportunities.
Dave
23 - Dave Nalle
Not really, as the crowds of unemployed illegals littering the Home Depot parking lot all day will attest. The day is long past when a few good workers were scooped up by 9AM, so it required a homeowner (looking for casual help to clean up the garden) to get there about 8AM.
Around here those folks are still getting hired and they ARE working. From what I can tell they're a very tiny minority of illegals. Most seem to get jobs through family connection and live to a considerably higher standard than those day workers who hang out at Home Depot.
Dave
24 - A.G.
Damn, before all this I always believed that crossing a foreign border was a big deal and already a felony.
25 - IgnatiusReilly
"That's my private property."
Sorry, but that's just an arbitrary line you created in your mind. If a majority of us refuse to acknowledge it, than it doesn't exist.