A raid on a small business in Austin illustrates how misguided the ranting nativists are about the real nature of our illegal immigrant population.
This past weekend in Austin, we were handed a perfect object lesson of the nature of illegal immigration and immigration enforcement courtesy of gun-toting INS agents looking to make an example and score some PR points for Governor Perry and President Bush.…
Article comments
76 - gonzo marx
comment #76 sez...
*But not all companies have the resources to recruit legally in Mexico and so workers take initiative and come to where the jobs are. It's a natural process.*
and thus does this commentor condone not only breaking the law by entering the country illegally, but refers to it as "taking initiative" when they do...and then applauds the companies that knowingly hire said illegals , calling it "a natural process"
well...i guess it could be, if you considered Dillinger robbing banks because he wanted money a "natural process"
excuse me while i go and throw up now
Excelsior?
77 - zingzing
you must have made a mistake. or maybe you were having a larf?
78 - zingzing
jeez. 79 continues 77. 78 is overstating dave's point.
79 - Clavos
The better educated/trained people
Sorry, I should have said "white collar workers", which is the group that has little incentive to leave Mexico.
I should add I'm speaking only of Mexicans--I don't know much, if anything, about Central American workers, except that we have a lot of them here in South Florida these days; many of them ARE working in construction jobs, of which we have too many (jobs, not immigrants) available down here (can you tell I'm anti-development?).
80 - Clavos
Dave and zing:
The less than $5 a day work I was referring to is in Mexico, not here--that's my point, they come here for better wages; sorry if that wasn't clear.
81 - Mickey G
You are missing the point...they were criminals when they violated the border, they were felons when they used false IDs. It is time to rev up our national capability to get things done and remove all the illegals including those overstaying visas. If it causes them pain so be it. Then pass laws that mirror the country of origin for the way that we treat illegals. In that particular case Mexicans would get a rough deal because Mexico gives illegals a rough deal. I am not aware of any other country that offers open borders but we could mirror laws for their nationals too.
REMOVE ALL ILLEGAL ALIENS NOW!
82 - zingzing
ok. minimum wage is pretty low in mexico. and maybe the ones that cross the border are the ones making minimum wage there.
83 - Dave Nalle
Zing, even the higher wages for skilled workers are pretty low in Mexico. Would you rather make $10 a day or $10 an hour?
And gonzo, you're a fine fellow and on the right side of many issues, but on this you shock me with how absolutely dead wrong you are. Usually you take the moral and ethical high ground, but your bizarre adherence to a poorly conceived and clearly unworkable law is atypical.
When a law is unfair, bad for everyone involved, and poorly administered that's a sign the law needs to be changed, not a sign to step up enforcement in a rabid and irrational way.
This is EXACTLY the same issue as the war on drugs. In that situation the solution to bad laws which don't work has been to spend more money and waste more resources and destroy more lives trying to make the broken laws work rather than fixing them.
You seem incapable of learning from that lesson and just want to repeat the same mistake with immigration.
Laws are supposed to conform to nature and to the best interests of the population. When they don't and government enforces them dogmatically you're looking at tyrrany.
Dave
84 - Victor Plenty
Gonzo, when I see you and Bing agreeing on an emotional hot-button issue like this, it might be a sign there is something to your arguments. But then I look at your actual arguments, such as they are, and see they are all self-contradictory and poorly thought out.
So I conclude you just both happened to randomly drink the same Kool-Aid for once, probably due to the influence of emotional passions that cloud your thinking on this issue, despite the fact that your usual choices of ideological beverage are diametrically opposed.
Why should the "crime" of crossing an imaginary line on a map without official permission be considered any more heinous than the "crime" of walking across a street against a signal light? Nobody has answered this question in any way that is even remotely convincing while still compatible with basic ideas of human freedom. I doubt anyone ever will.
85 - Heloise
"Reading the Grapes of Wrath" that's funny. But you guys are green. The going wage for day labor especially illegals has been and usually like 50 USD. Here in north Texas I can go to almost any corner and pick up someone to work for a day.
Or they now have a center, where no one goes, and you can get a worker for the day. The going wage is 50 bucks. Now if they work for a good 8 hours then that is 6.25 USD per hour. If they work for ten hours as some do with lawn services then it would be 5.00 USD per hour.
I think it is somewhere in the middle. Yes, I have used illegal aliens to do some concrete work around the house and Mexicans to lay the hardwood floors in my house. Now, I don't know if they were legal or not. But the ones who did my floor sure as hell did not learn that in ONE day, albeit may have learned it OTJ--on the job.
For safety reasons I have never picked up someone to work for me because I live alone and I think that most of them are sex criminals--I can hardly walk down the street without one of those damn things following me in their car or truck. I have HAD to call the PO-PO on them many times for just this.
But using references from middle class white folks that I know I have used their labor to get my historic house livable.
Heloise
86 - Heloise
"As was the case with the five taken in this raid, they were indistinguishable from their native co-workers, just workers filling a need and supporting their families."
Indistinguishable from their native co-workers you say? What are you baking into the bread--hashish? Or are all the workers there Mexicans? Buddy I've been and spent lots of time in Austin and most of the folks there in the downtown area are not only whiiite but they are German white with blond hair, big tits and blue eyes. So who the hell are these workers blending in with?
I know too that the cost of living in Austin is also high like the bread you are baking. So the fact that they are making over or near 10 USD a hour ain't shit in a place like Austin.
They seem like us but they are probably living like 20 to a house or room. Don't kid yourself. Nice article about Austin. I miss it.
Heloise
Heloise
87 - Heloise
"Furthermore, and again to no fault of my wife or anyone, I make an obscene number of trips to the local emergency room each month, (see "Small Town and Big Time") and I notice each time that the demographics are nearly the same every visit. Approximately 70% Black, 20% elderly White, and 10% Hispanic." (what the hell is wrong with you?)
You're stats might show that blacks overuse the ER and this is probably true. They may be poor and this too may be true for your community. But one thing this one-sided cherry picking thing does not show is the fact that the illegal Mexican alien (let's call it what it is) is MUCH younger than both black and white populations in this country.
That makes a big difference. Besides most of them are AFRAID to show up in an ER. Eventually the people who bring them here tell them it is fucking OK to use the ER, I mean misuse IT the same as black folks do and apparently your ass too.
Heloise
88 - Dave Nalle
From the couple of times I've been to the emergency room the illegals who are there seem to be there to get medicine for sick kids. Of course, they're a small minority of those who are in the waiting area, even though I go to a hospital that's right on the edge of a rather poor neighborhood. Last time I was there - for the embarassing malady of a bug having crawled into my ear and died - there were about 20 anglos, a handful of african americans and two hispanic families with a total of 5 kids. For whatever that means.
Dave
89 - gonzo marx
Victor...
you seem to be laboring from the misunderstanding that i am operating from some "emotional hot button" viewpoint...
nothing could be further from the Truth
in actuality my concern about illegal aliens come frmo a few quite cold and rational, as well as indisputable Facts...
1) we are talking about people who entered ILLEGALLY...this has the impact of breaking American law as well as jumping in front of those who are attempting to enter this country legally by following the Rules for gaining access to work or become citizens
2) many of those illegal aliens utilize stolen or falsified documentation...identity theft is a FELONY, and causes no end of grief for those whose ID is stolen
3) utilization of illegal aliens as part of the workforce places artificial downward pressure on hourly wage jobs... the price of Labor should be determined by supply and demand in a capitalistic economy...and by artificially increasing the supply by utilizing illegal workers you decrease demand and thus keep the price of Labor down, negatively impacting LEGAL workers seeking to better themselves
4) the 1986 Law passed last time this Issue came around was supposed to solve this by granting amnesty, the estimate was approximately 500,000 would be taken in using the program....over 2.5 million came in, many falsifying the paperwork for the process
a) under the 1986 Law the border was to be SECURED...it has not been...this is not only a problem when it comes to illegal immigrants, but remains a hole in National Security
b) under the 1986 Law, employers who hired illegals were supposed to be fined and or prosecuted...such has not occured
c) due to the above, the Problem of illegal immigration which was supposed to have been lessened, if not resolved completely, instead has gotten MUCH worse as employers blatantly hire illegals and millions more have crossed the border to live here
now, once more, i will put forward my position as to a possible course of action...and after you read this, then try again to tell me i am being emotional, reactionary or xenophobic in any way...
1) seal the fucking borders tight...PERIOD
2) enforce the Laws on the books already, the provisions of the 1986 Law are a great start while any changes are worked out legislatively
3) THEN we can begin the national dialogue about what to do with the illegals already in the country...my contention here is that any who have violated the Law beyond merely crossing the border be deported (this means identity theft or any other crime, we don't even bust these folks for driving without a license/insurance...go look up what that alone costs us)....those who have been good citizens can get in the back of the legal Immigration line...pay some sort of fine (monetary or public service/military)...and follow the procedures to legally become an american citizen
hope that helps make my points clear and removes any doubt as to the Fact that i am operating out of a code of Ethics and not emotions
Excelsior?
90 - Dave Nalle
you seem to be laboring from the misunderstanding that i am operating from some "emotional hot button" viewpoint...
When the position you take and the arguments you give to support it are irrational, that's the kind of response you can expect to provoke. We expect that sort of thing from others, but we've hope for better from you in the past.
1) we are talking about people who entered ILLEGALLY...this has the impact of breaking American law as well as jumping in front of those who are attempting to enter this country legally by following the Rules for gaining access to work or become citizens
I drove my pickup at 120mph down an empty highway at 2am yesterday. That makes me a criminal. Are you going to deport me? Perhaps separate me from my family and take away my job?
2) many of those illegal aliens utilize stolen or falsified documentation...identity theft is a FELONY, and causes no end of grief for those whose ID is stolen
Except that they use the SSNs of dead people and/or they don't take out credit cards and deal only in cash, all so they reduce their chance of getting caught. So no harm is actually done to anyone, no 'grief' is caused.
3) utilization of illegal aliens as part of the workforce places artificial downward pressure on hourly wage jobs...
Which you bizarrely think is a BAD thing. We have a serious problem in the US with wage inflation, and in a nation of consumers where the economy is literally driven by consumption, that's a very dangerous thing.
the price of Labor should be determined by supply and demand in a capitalistic economy...and by artificially increasing the supply by utilizing illegal workers you decrease demand and thus keep the price of Labor down, negatively impacting LEGAL workers seeking to better themselves
Or more precisely creating an environment where wages are reasonable for the work done, but not so high that they don't encourage people to improve their education and look for better jobs, while at the same time keeping prices for consumers relatively reasonable.
In fact, all the illegals really do, is provide more consumers to buy more goods and services, and more workers to produce those goods and provide those services. They aren't just a wage lowering engine, they're people and they consume and contribute in myriad ways to the economy just like anyone else.
4) the 1986 Law passed
It makes no sense at all to use the failure of the 1986 law as an excuse for not supporting efforts to do the job correctly today. Effective immigration reform HAS to combine both security improvements AND a means to address our need for labor and Mexicans need for a better wage. Just doing security means that the border will become an even bigger and more volatile problem.
1) seal the fucking borders tight...PERIOD
Impossible at any sane cost, of course.
2) enforce the Laws on the books already, the provisions of the 1986 Law are a great start while any changes are worked out legislatively
But that law isn't being enforced because many of the measures were so draconian that the enforcement agencies basically refused to employ them. That's why the law needs to be replaced with one which puts the emphasis on dealing with the problem rather than denial and arbitrary punishment and destruction.
3) THEN we can begin the national dialogue about what to do with the illegals already in the country...my contention here is that any who have violated the Law beyond merely crossing the border be deported (this means identity theft or any other crime, we don't even bust these folks for driving without a license/insurance...go look up what that alone costs us)....those who have been good citizens can get in the back of the legal Immigration line...pay some sort of fine (monetary or public service/military)...and follow the procedures to legally become an american citizen
Well now, this part is perfectly reasonable, except that since we're already debating the issue, why not put the solution to how to deal with the illegals in the bill at the same time as everything else so we have a single, comprehensive plan.
Dave
91 - gonzo marx
#92 sez...
*I drove my pickup at 120mph down an empty highway at 2am yesterday. That makes me a criminal. Are you going to deport me? Perhaps separate me from my family and take away my job?*
nope, but you should do some jail time and probably have your license revoked, depending on your state law...apples and oranges...far beneath even you here..
and then sez...
*Except that they use the SSNs of dead people and/or they don't take out credit cards and deal only in cash, all so they reduce their chance of getting caught. So no harm is actually done to anyone, no 'grief' is caused.*
a complete and utter fucking lie...just this evening there were quite a few cases in the news, one lady had over 200 illegal aliens using her SS number and birth certificate, which were sold in a Texas flea market....you appear to be quite ignorant about how the criminal element which deals in these papers operates...they don't give a fuck, and neither do their customers
and then it goes on and sez...
*Which you bizarrely think is a BAD thing. We have a serious problem in the US with wage inflation, and in a nation of consumers where the economy is literally driven by consumption, that's a very dangerous thing.*
yes, yes i do think that fucking with the law of supply and demand when it comes to Labor and wages IS a problem..as you stated about this being a consumer driven society...those consumers NEED to make decent money if we are going to pay for the rest of the world by buying their outsourced good and services...see i'm funny...i WANT the American worker to be well paid for being more productive and creative in their work than anyone else...silly of me i guess...
on and on...this commentor continuously shows he is all for cheap illegal labor and has no care in resolving the problem or addressing the problems that arise from this practice...
so fucking many are advocating the status quo just to keep thei rcheap gardeners, nannys, day laborers...or the illicit fruits of such labor
i'll stand by every fucking word of what i put in comment #91
as for it not being possible to secure the border...not 100%, i'll grant you...but 90-95%...easily, and cheaper than what we have spent in a year in Iraq...but you don't want Answers, you want cheap labor
fuck that
Excelsior?
92 - Lumpy
I'll share a personal anecdote. My sister and hee husband have a child with a neuromuscular disorder who needs help dressing herself and care every day after school. There's no way they can afford a visiting nurse 5 days a week when they both work to make enough to cover medical bills and their daughter's special school, but for room and board plus $200 a month they can get a live in guatemalan girl who works half days outdide the home and takes care of the kid in the afternoons.
Would they have this option without our current relatively open borders?
93 - Lumpy
You know gonzo if we had a guest worker program with federal IDs for the workers yer whole SSN theft issue goes pffffft.
94 - Victor Plenty
Gonzo, when you call for insanely impossible ideas like "sealing" thousands of miles of borderlines and coastlines, there is nothing rational about your proposals.
When you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of doing so only because they want to personally profit from cheap labor, and you pepper your diatribes with unnecessary obscenities, it's clear your arguments are based more on emotion than on reason or logic.
95 - Andy Marsh
Where can I get a live in Gautemalan girl? I have some pipes that need cleaning!!! Just in case my wife reads this...I'm kidding honey!
You see that's the whole problem...if you're sister was an illegal alien she'd probably get those services for her child from the govt for free!
96 - Mrs Marsh
Yup, I did read this honey, but I'm not worried, I know your pipes don't need cleaning,.....at least not at the moment. :)
97 - Andy Marsh
She's such a dirty girl! But I like her!
98 - gonzo marx
Lumpy....read what i said about those in the country again carefully...if it is decided to give those folks green cards while they wait their turn for citizenship, i'm fine with that
of course, then they fall under US worker protections for OSHA and minimum wage , etc....but i'm ok with them staying and working ...i just require the problem of more coming in illegally to be solved BEFORE offering incentives for more to cross the border illegally....see what happened after the 1986 amnesty until now for my concerns (and i am sorry to hear about the problems of your family member).....but your example shows more of why our healthcare system is broken than why we need illegal workers
Victor...my proposal to better secure the borders is not impossible, it's quite do-able with todays technology and by assigning proper resources...a much simpler project than the Hoover Dam or the Panama canal, and those were done quite a while ago without current technology.....as for my fucking obscenities amidst my diatribe...you may want to check who i wa aiming those at...it was not you...my answer to you was comment #91..."fucking borders" was the only bit of "color" there...as you will note, fucking is used as an adjective towards the border...you may not like my style, but i am rather careful where i aim things... the next response was much harsher, but was aimed at another commentor...i am certain you can easily see the difference in tone....and i did not "accuse everyone"..what i said was...
*so fucking many are advocating the status quo just to keep their cheap gardeners, nannys, day laborers...or the illicit fruits of such labor*
"so fucking many" is NOT everyone...i am well aware that to some, it is a matter of principle, i give you this credit...which is why the tone of my response to you in comment #91 is much different than my later comment to another person
hope that helps, but obviously there is going to remain a vast difference of thought on this Issue
again, my concern is not to deport all 12-20 million of those here immediately, but to remove the demand by enforcing the law and prosecuting employers who hire illegals, close up the border (Kinky Friedmans 5 generals plan looks like fun and a good start), and then set up some process where legal immigrants get to utilize the system, and those who came illegally but want to stay have a clear path towards citizenship
Excelsior?
99 - Victor Plenty
Thanks for clarifying your stance, Gonzo. I still disagree with you on the feasibility of sealing borders, but it is now clear you are far more reasonable than those who think we can deport all the people who are already here illegally.
You are also absolutely right about the necessity of setting up a clear path toward legal status for the workers who are already here and are generally law-abiding members of their communities.
Whether this means citizenship or a new status of guest worker with the full protection of all existing labor laws, it would be a definite improvement on the current state of affairs, and would let us focus limited enforcement resources on the much smaller set of truly dangerous and immoral lawbreakers.
100 - gonzo marx
i am very glad to have made myself more clear Victor, and i do agree there is no easy answer to this thorny problem that has been caused by neglect and non-enforcement of the 1986 laws.
remember as for criminals, i do count those who have committed identity theft as the felons that they are under our current legal system, and they should be among those deported
but as for those hard working folks who are here and want to become citizens, we do need to think of a fair way to accomplish that...but i still stress they should go to the back of the line behind those that are trying to enter the country legally and have been following proper protocol
what some are not going to like is that obtaining citizenship requires a lot of work, and some study...knowledge of our Constitution and a working knowledge of english IS required....go and look it up
but i'm all for reasonable soloutions that do not reward those who have broken the law
Excelsior?
101 - Maurice
It is amazing to me that this issue seems to have reversed many of the positions of the people at this site. Dave normally comes across as Spock - cold hard logic that is undisputable. Now he comes across as emotional and empathetic. One bit of false logic from Dave:
"Paul, I think it's very telling that almost all of the major supporters of building a wall and increasing border enforcement live in northern states - most of them bordering on Canada, not Mexico."
This seems to imply that only 'if you been there can you know'!
I view immigration as allowing someone to come into my home. Since I have 5 kids I often have MANY visitors to my home. I make a point to meet each and every visitor. My wife and I have sometimes banned certain visitors from our house.
I think we should keep track of our visitors in this country. Dave (the emotional empath) is right about the mexican people being generally hard working nice people. I just want to moniter ALL our visitors.
102 - Dave Nalle
It is amazing to me that this issue seems to have reversed many of the positions of the people at this site. Dave normally comes across as Spock - cold hard logic that is undisputable. Now he comes across as emotional and empathetic.
Certainly not intentional, just a result of the fact that this particular article is based on a real-life case of specific individuals rather than the statistics and data I usually deal in. I have a more technical article in the works.
One bit of false logic from Dave:
"Paul, I think it's very telling that almost all of the major supporters of building a wall and increasing border enforcement live in northern states - most of them bordering on Canada, not Mexico."
This seems to imply that only 'if you been there can you know'!
Not exactly, but I am suggesting that those of us who live in the Southwest have a hell of a lot more contact with the illegal population and get to see day to day the roles they are filling in society and the overall positive nature of their contribution. James Sensenbrenner has probably never even seen an illegal.
I view immigration as allowing someone to come into my home. Since I have 5 kids I often have MANY visitors to my home. I make a point to meet each and every visitor. My wife and I have sometimes banned certain visitors from our house.
But immigrants don't come into your house any more than anyone else does and certainly not without your permission. You have no say in what legal immigrants come here either, but you're not trying to shut down all immigration. Or are you?
I think we should keep track of our visitors in this country. Dave (the emotional empath) is right about the mexican people being generally hard working nice people. I just want to moniter ALL our visitors.
I agree. And the way to do that is to provide a safe, trackable and legal way for them to come here to work under a guest worker program. So long we are trying to close the borders we will never be able to control or know who is coming through despite our efforts. That cannot be the main element of the effort to deal with immigration.
Dave
103 - gonzo marx
comment #104 sez...
*Not exactly, but I am suggesting that those of us who live in the Southwest have a hell of a lot more contact with the illegal population*
isn't that just a variation on the "chicken-hawk" argument?
just goes to show how low some will stoop, eh?
just a Thought
Excelsior?
104 - Dave Nalle
Gonzo, the difference is that I'm not saying that those who don't live in the southwest are disqualified from having opinions, just that they may not have as much personal experience of illegal immigration. There are valid reasons for having concerns about immigration which stem from general concerns about national policy, but there's also an awful lot of mischaracterization of immigrants, who they are and what they do, which anyone could correct through some research, but which some of us have first hand experience with.
Dave
105 - gonzo marx
no..you imply it , both in the quote i used and earlier in the commentary
care to have me look over it all again and show you?
you also make the assumption that unless you live in a particualr area you have no experience with illegal mexican immigrants....and there show prejudice and ignorance...many parts of the country have quite a large illegal population, and many more folks than you think have direct experience
but no one is saying that the vast majority of these people's only crime is illegally crossing the border...the next larger set are those committing felonies via identity theft, and then the small minority of actual criminals/gang members/smugglers
the first group, as i have stated, shoudl be given the chance...after going to the end of the line and satisfying the qualifications for citizenship as well as any fine/public work to pay back for their coming here illegally...
the latter groups i have just mentioned have lost the priveledge of being in this country IMO, and should be deported or jailed for their crimes
problem with that?
the only other thing i think anyone has asked is that the border is secured to stop any further illegals as well as drug trafficers and human smugglers from getting in as easily...this is also a Natrional security Issue for obvious reasons
nice try at dodging tho...
Excelsior?
106 - Dave Nalle
I've already said repeatedly that I have no problem with deporting every illegal who's committed a crime beyond those associated with just living in this country. They're the bad apples and need to go.
As for securing the border from drug traffickers, not an issue if we get off our asses and legalize as many drugs as possible.
Regardless of what you may think I implied earlier, I was just addressing the demographics of the issue. Most of the major opponents of immigration seem to be from non-border states with the exception of Tancredo, and most of those more familiar with the border and the illegal immigrant population seem to have a more rational attitude. It's just an observation of fact. Doesn't imply anything more universal or radical than that, and if you think I said it did earlier, I'm telling you now that it didn't.
We basically agree on this issue, except that I don't see massive border redesign as a practical first step, but as one of the parts of a multi-element process, ALL of which need to be implemented at the same time to realistically work.
Dave
107 - Wanos
What I find disgusting is the Hmong people, who were recruited by the CIA to fight the communist North Vietnamese during the Vietnam War were not automatically made American citizens while illegal immigrants are being proposed this offer. The Hmong people lost hundreds of thousands of lives because they helped the U.S. armed forces. When the U.S. pulled out of South Vietnam, most of the Hmong were left behind to be slaughtered by the communists. Only a few handful escaped, and others were able to come to the U.S. as permanent legal resident aliens. Point? I find it extremely sick that illegal immigrants are going to be granted U.S. citizenship when legitimate legal aliens who served the U.S. and lost their lives for the cause are not being given this same proposal. In fact, even over 2 decades after the U.S. pulled from South Vietnam, there were Hmong refugees living in Thailand, in sickly camps, and being abused by the Thai government. It wasn't until there was a commission in Washington D.C. just a few years ago that the U.S. finally pressured the Thai government to do more, and also to allow more refugees to come to the country they'd served.
Check out: factfinding.org for more information.