A raid on a small business in Austin illustrates how misguided the ranting nativists are about the real nature of our illegal immigrant population.
This past weekend in Austin, we were handed a perfect object lesson of the nature of illegal immigration and immigration enforcement courtesy of gun-toting INS agents looking to make an example and score some PR points for Governor Perry and President Bush.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Dave Nalle
Paul, I think it's very telling that almost all of the major supporters of building a wall and increasing border enforcement live in northern states - most of them bordering on Canada, not Mexico.
Dave
27 - Paul Jordan, Sr.
It is telling in two ways, those in the know of the situation, and those in the political throws of it as well. I wonder, truly, how many Canadians dip the border each day to earn a stronger dollar each day, yet aren't quite brown enough to get noticed...
28 - Credible Threat
This all makes me wonder:
We have a movie out right now called An Inconvenient Truth. Al Gore argues that in 10 years we will have serious consequences due to global warming.
What if there were a movie with the SAME title, arguing that in 10 years if the current rate of illegal immigration continues, that the US economy will collapse into a great depression? I wonder how that would be received.
29 - Ty
And I have wondered what all those protesting Mexicans would think if hundreds of millions of poor Chinese and poor Indian people illegally came to this country just like border-hopping Mexicans and took "those jobs nobody wanted except illegals"
Then all of the sudden Mexicans would want to curb illegal immigration. You would see Mexicans crying for a wall to protect our shores from these boat people, but hypocritically they would not support a wall on the US/Mexico Border.
My point is, if another group of people illegally came here just like Mexicans and worked just like those Mexicans, all of a sudden all of these latinos protesting would be changing their tune FAST.
30 - gonzo marx
well, i just deleted a nice comment full of quotes and refutations...
why?
cuz realization sets in that no matter what the point or argument, those who like the cheap labor of illegal aliens are going to go on advocating, no matter how sensible the questions or alternatives offered...
enjoy yer circle jerk kiddies
/ignore
Excelsior?
31 - Common Sense
If illegal immigration benefitted the US, why would be ILLEGAL? Why not simply an open border policy?
All these liberals keep saying it's a good thing, but obviously the government doesn't think so. In fact NO US government has ever had an open border policy.
WHY?
Think about it: If it only helps our economy, why is it illegal?
It's illegal because people who are responsible for taking care of this country understand that severe negative consequences could occur with an open border policy.
Be realistic now: Our current stance on illegal immigration is not just to keep "white" people happy. That is foolish and makes no sense. Our current stance is based on economic predictions.
32 - Common Sense
Anyone see a hypocrisy among liberals?
On one hand, they are against outsourcing. They don't want jobs being taken away from US Citizens and LEGAL residents in favor of people in third world countries, like India.
But especially when dealing with Mexican liberals, they would love if corporations could hire truckloads of Mexican illegal immigrants, even if that meant jobs were being outsourced away from US Citizens and LEGAL residents.
I smell hypocrisy, just like Ty's comment about hypocrisy in the fact that if illegals from other countries (like India/China) came here, the Mexicans would change their views on illegal immigration.
33 - Richard Brodie
Paul, I think it's very telling that almost all of the major supporters of building a wall and increasing border enforcement live in northern states - most of them bordering on Canada, not Mexico.
Funny, I thought the major supporters of building a wall were American farmers who live right ON the Mexican border, and whose properties have been turned into dangerous junk heap thoroughfares for illegals.
34 - Jet in Columbus
Shut up all of you, Dave's right and you know it.
35 - Richard Brodie
Dave fianlly admits: I'm associated with a community group which owns a large facility which we rent out for parties and meetings and especially weddings and quintaneras (look it up). Most of our renters are Mexicans and many, many of them are likely illegals. They pay a great deal to rent the hall for a saturday evening
I always suspected you must have had some vested financial interest in illegal immigration.
36 - Common Sense
"Dave fianlly admits: I'm associated with a community group which owns a large facility which we rent out for parties and meetings and especially weddings and quintaneras (look it up). Most of our renters are Mexicans and many, many of them are likely illegals. They pay a great deal to rent the hall for a saturday evening
I always suspected you must have had some vested financial interest in illegal immigration.
"
Good point Brodie. Of course Dave used a different story so he wouldn't sound so biased.
Of course no one has still addressed the GREAT points from Ty, Credible Threat, and Common Sense (me).
37 - Arch Conservative
We need to string Vincente Fox up like a pinata and beat the fuck out of him. This would be a good start.
38 - Wow
now i got a question that i dont think ive heard addressed: lets say we have this open border thing happen? now are we only talking about mexico? (some include canada) y not have no immigration rules? y not let people from india, korea, china, etc come one over. cuz go bless them they try for YEARS, im talking 10 YEARS or more to come over here. they want a better life for their family. they are hard workers. they are good people. y not let them come over?
im very upset that my educated, hard working parents waited 15 years to come to this country to give me a better life, and people like dave shows no respect to the back of this country (LEGAL immigrants) by saying, sure let the northerners come over. let them come cuz they are good hard working people. thats dumb. and its scary u think that way. im glad u dont run the country.
39 - Credible Threat
"now i got a question that i dont think ive heard addressed: lets say we have this open border thing happen? now are we only talking about mexico? (some include canada) y not have no immigration rules? y not let people from india, korea, china, etc come one over. cuz go bless them they try for YEARS, im talking 10 YEARS or more to come over here. they want a better life for their family. they are hard workers. they are good people. y not let them come over?"
This is my point. Mexicans and other latinos don't want this because they don't want other groups stealing their jobs. All of a sudden Mexicans protesting against immigration reform would be protesting FOR immgration reform.
40 - Andy Marsh
Paul - I live in VA...my border is NC...pretty bad, but not Mexico...the other is the Atlantic...I'm from NJ...I've lived as close as 6 miles from the border and seen people running down the freeway after crashing the gates...not on TV...with my own eyes! But somehow...you think we should just let them in? Or give them a get out of jail free card? Is crashing the gate a Chance card or a Community Chest card?
And I'd say...you need to remember that old glass house story...I'm sure there's some arcane law somewhere you're breaking, whether you know it or not is besides the point...ignorance is no excuse...
I've also met plenty of people that are not native to the U.S. that have gained citizenship the right way...legally...like my grandfather had to do and every other person on the planet should have to do regardless the color of their skin...why is giving every person that wants into this country the once over a bad thing?
41 - Joey
"By the way, Texas French Bread makes a damned fine baguette, excellent croissants and has branched out into sandwiches, lunch fare and gourmet coffee" -- Dave
BTW... in Virginia it's a felony to possess and use a fake I.D., I can't imagine what a fake set of papers and a SSN would bring.
If you're under 21 and try to buy alcohol... and get busted... you're toast.
Just to put it in perspective. If I could live in Mexico without practically getting robbed... I'd do it. But that country is so corrupt, I wouldn't go there if you double-dawg-dared-me.
And I've been all over the globe.
42 - Dave Nalle
What I don't like is the fact that we have many people working their butts off to become citizens the legal way and these people (the illegals) are diminishing that effort.
Maurice, this at least is a valid point. They should certainly go to the back of the line. But they have shown a lot of initiative and a commitment to the US that many who just fill out a form haven't done. So they ought to get some consideration, especially if they willingly take the opportunity to make themselves legal.
Dave
43 - Dave Nalle
I always suspected you must have had some vested financial interest in illegal immigration.
Richard, it's a charity, I take no profit from it - in fact, I pay in a good deal of volunteer time and donated money, so don't waste your sanctimonious judgements on me. What do you do to volunteer in your community?
Dave
44 - Dave Nalle
And Common Sense (what name could be more inappropriate), the government makes a LOT of things illegal for stupid and nonsensical reasons which could potentially be good for the country. I need only point out to you the glaring example of our ridiculous war on hemp, a valuable natural resource which could benefit the entire nation both commercially and medically yet the psychoactive form is banned alltogether and you can't grow the harmless form in the US and have to import it if you want to make sure of it.
Just because the government says something that certainly doesn't make it right or a good idea. The government often reflects the perspective of ignorant masses who've been stampeded into supporting ridiculous policies.
And BTW, we already DO have illegal immigration from southeast asia - lots and lots of it. And many of them are brought in and kept in a state of virtual slavery, which is even worse. Forced to work in sweatshops and brothels, involuntarily addicted to drugs and mercilessly exploited. It's far worse than anything that goes on over the border with Mexico.
Dave
45 - Sharon
They are still here illegally. Too bad these hardworking, wanting a better life people couldn't come here through the front door without breaking the law. Hmmmm.........what would the Mexican government do to me if they caught me working in that country?? The I want a better life crap would be out the window. No country can survive without secure borders and no country can survive will mass poverty entering a nation. This is not about liberalism nor conservatism. Frankly, it is about our survival as a nation.
46 - Peter
This "compassionate conservatism" is making me sick. How about compassion for the American people who have communities ruined with these illegal aliens. You should see the town that I had to move away from. It looks like little Mexico. I don't see Ted Kennedy or other immigrant supporters living in places like that. Once they live side by side with them like I did for many years, then I'll listen to their side.
1. Send a brick to Congress at sendabrick.com
2. Sponsor a Stop the Invasion billboard at grassroots.org (many are going up all across the US)
3. Report all business lawbreakers who hire illegal aliens to wehirealiens.com
47 - Cindy
Any who loves this Mexican Invasion should visit this site : rcyb.info
THEY ARE RECRUITING YOUNG LATINOS AND ARE PLANNING AN "ARMED REVOLUTION"!!!!!!!
We will pay dearly if we don't do the House plan. Call, fax, email, and write everyone in the house of representatives to demand the house demand.
48 - Victor Plenty
When both Gonzo and Bing spew the same poorly conceived cookie-cutter rationalizations for their paranoid anti-immigrant fervor, it's a sure sign there is a major propaganda campaign underway.
Fact of the matter is, if we deported all the lawbreakers just for being lawbreakers, this nation would be depopulated until the only ones left here would be a few thousand Amish and Mennonites.
Kudos to Dave for holding to a higher standard of reasoning.
Raspberries to all the hatemongers babbling about "invasion" and other such nonsense on stilts.
49 - Clavos
Methinks #s 45, 46, & 47 are some sort of coordinated email campaign.
50 - Q Bit
Traditionally, I disagree with Dave but I do think he's made an excellent point here:
And BTW, we already DO have illegal immigration from southeast asia - lots and lots of it. And many of them are brought in and kept in a state of virtual slavery, which is even worse. Forced to work in sweatshops and brothels, involuntarily addicted to drugs and mercilessly exploited. It's far worse than anything that goes on over the border with Mexico.
A grossly overlooked issue.
I have lived in Los Angeles for years and still travel to LA and San Diego quite often. From my experience I can tell you, the Latino immigrants are mostly decent and hard working people and they are here just to have a better life like the ancestors of all of you who immigrated to America - the land of opportunity. Don't forget that.
If illegal immigraton is indeed a problem, then legalize it appropriately-do whatever so that they can stay and lead a life of security and safety that all of you enjoy.
51 - Dave Nalle
Bingo, Clavos. #45, #46 and #47 were indeed written by the same person. Like many of those opposing immigration reform he has more rabid hatred than good sense or courtesy.
Dave
52 - Dave Nalle
Victor, what amazes me is that groups like Mecha support and believe in craziness like an armed uprising, and they're balanced out by nuts like the Minutemen who think there are actually people who listen to Mecha or that they're the voice of the immigrant population. When the reality is that neither extreme makes any sense at all and no one who matters takes either group seriously except when it helps advance their political agenda - which in the current environment is mostly getting reelected on pure hatemongering.
Dave
53 - lonewacko_dot_com
Anecdotes are fun, but serious academic studies show that - financially speaking - illegal immigration is at most a wash. Other studies show it costs Californians hundreds of dollars per household per year. Is there even one serious academic study showing a clear, substantial financial gain from illegal immigration?
I respond to the common canard "they're just coming to work" here:
immref.com
And, massive illegal immigration from Mexico also gives the government of Mexico political power inside the U.S. There are even Mexican consuls given desks inside Border Patrol offices.
The Mexican government works with several U.S. "human rights" groups to advance their agenda, they spread propaganda to U.S. schoolchildren, they conduct mobile consulates where they give ID cards to illegal aliens, they even attend city council meetings trying to get local officials to accept those IDs.
And, illegal immigration leads to massive political corruption in the U.S. as our representatives are basically bought off by those who profit from illegal immigration.
And, it reduces the worth of U.S. citizenship. For instance, some illegal aliens are able to get discounted college educations that some U.S. citizens are not eligible for. In other words, the government is taking something away from a U.S. citizen and giving it to a citizen of another country.
So, those who are serious about this issue and are able to look at everything involved realize just how much a problem it is.
54 - Dave Nalle
That's odd, wacko. When I go looking for actual studies, you know with real data from verifiable sources, they all suggest that immigrants pull their weight or more than pull their weight in society. And good job repeating all those old wives tales you trotted out.
Here are a couple of things for you to read:
Oregon State Study
Five Myths About Immigration - everyone should read this as a starting point for an informed discussion of this topic.
And let me also point you to this article from the Reason Foundation which suggests that illegals pay considerably more into the economy than I estimated earlier.
Dave
55 - Nymphidius
Good stuff Dave. Keep up the bad ass work!
56 - workingman
Hey netizens. Just weighing in here. I managed to read more than I ever hope to again on this topic. Other people have made the most pertainent points. I love my many Mexican friends. They all have illegal documents. They all have several children who were born in the U.S. under public care, and who are by law citizens of America. They are under- paid sometimes, often by their own. Some are getting rich. They are rarely insured for their automobiles. They have a very well established network to attain their objectives. Many violations of law. If they are caught, they will be responsible for their actions. They send their money home. They do not feel like Americans, nor do they want to be. They are Mexicans. They are in Minnesota, in Wisconsin in Georgia, in Utah, in New Mexico, in California, all places that I've lived. You need not live in Austin, TX to understand and be in contact with these realities first hand, so let the hot air out somewhere else. To say that they should not be harrassed or detained or deported by U.S. law enforcement officials because of forged papers and illegal entry is in my mind not very clever thinking. If the industry of false identity is free to the takers, look out buddy. It is incredibly easy to do, and exists in every city. It is a highly paid industry, for all the reasons which you may suspect. Mexicans don't all stay in TX. What is the solution? I now live in Asia, and if I were to over-stay my visa, or get aprehended working illegally, or with falsified papers, it is VERY SERIOUS. Incarceration, deportation, confiscation of assets. No chance to say PLEASE, I'm a very hard working man. So the original poster has some human sypathies. Good. But if you broadly apply the lack of consequences that he advocates, well, go to Mexico and try to get away with the same. Go to Thailand and break the law. Go to Australia and get busted. These immigrants want something from the U.S. economy. They have come here with criminal intent to take it at their own peril. Assistance to illegals is given at the expense of fair application of the legal code. It is a kick in the face of lawfulness. There is no arguement to provide that $9.50 per hour jobs go begging these days. That is simply false. And please, accept that many people are being realistic and honest when they point all of this out. Clearly this is not a question of ethnicity, but of application of existing laws. Maybe we should all get a couple of false identities, just in case we want to visit Mexico and break the law.
57 - Dave Nalle
I don't advocate lack of consequences, just APPROPRIATE consequences for a relatively trivial and arbitrary crime.
As for the $9.50 an hour, I doubt that you can hire a native born American who's a skilled baker for that, hence the need to hire illegals.
Most of the rest of your points about all the terrible things illegals do are standard disinformation which doesn't hold up when examined factually.
Dave
58 - prts
white people or black or whatever, who think that they are america's natives, are just a bunch of butthole sucking morons, YOU ARE NOT!!!, let me repeat this loud and clear, so that your small little brains would understand better, JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A PIECE OF NUMBERS, THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU OWN THIS LAND NOR NATIVE TO IT!!!.
It was taken forcefully from the american indians, they are the natives. It is like if europe being invaded by negros and then they started to say that europe is their native land, it is laughable.
Is... this land is yours because your forefathers managed to wipe out the real natives to this land and claimed it because they are stronger? because the natives are just animals, if you think so, then you might live in year 2006 but your brains are of year 1500s, you are the real animals not deserve living in this land.
And the last thing, if you want to get a job that pays well or even just a job, WORK FOR IT! morons, don't just sit around sodomizing yourself all day and hope to get a job of $50,000 a year just because "(whining) I got numbers, (whining again) I'm the natives", if you got numbers so what, you don't have no respect for what you don't earn it.
59 - Arch Conservative
Congratlutions Victor...you win the idiot of the day award.
"Fact of the matter is, if we deported all the lawbreakers just for being lawbreakers, this nation would be depopulated until the only ones left here would be a few thousand Amish and Mennonites."
Is that so? I think the only law we deport people for is coming into this nation illegally and we're not even enforcing that law.
Fact of the matter...........if we deported all the ILLEGAL ALIENS this nation would not fall apart. It's the biggest crock of shit going.
Fact of the matter............between healthcare, social welfare, gangs, motor vehicle accidents without insurance and other costs....ILLEGAL ALIENS cost this nation much more then they give to it.
Maybe you'd like to pretend we don't have any borders at all and let anyone who wants come in here and screw us over Victor but I don't.
60 - Heloise
Is Bush reinventing the BILL? from 2002--must read
Gekas introduces major reform
Rep. George Gekas (R-PA), the chair of the House Immigration Subcommittee, has introduced the SAFER Act of 2002. This legislation would implement many of the immigration-related reforms of two federal commissions of the 1990s: the late Barbara Jordan's U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform and former Senator Tim Wirth's President's Council on Sustainable Development. This includes significant reductions in overall immigration numbers.
In addition, the SAFER Act includes much needed security reforms that would create an effective interior enforcement strategy and step up immigration related anti-terrorism measures.
Send a fax to your Representative in support of the SAFER Act.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 25, 2002
CONTACT: KENT WISSINGER
DAY: (202) 226-0555
EVENING: (202) 225-2981
WHO
Congressman George W. Gekas (R-Pa.) will introduce the SAFER (Securing America's Future through Enforcement Reform) Act. Joining Gekas will be co-sponsors of the bill (H.R. 5013).
WHAT
The SAFER Act will make sweeping changes to the Immigration and Nationality Act to ensure a safer America. The major themes of the bill are the following:
Securing the Border
Screening Aliens Seeking Admission
Tracking Aliens in the United States
Removing Alien Terrorists, Criminals, and Human Rights Violators
Enhancing Enforcement of the Immigration and Nationality Act in the Interior
Eliminating Excessive Review and Abusive Tactics by Aliens in Removal Proceedings
Verifying Citizenship Status of Voters in Federal Elections
Reforming Legal Immigration
WHEN
Wednesday, June 26, 2002
10:00 a.m.
WHERE
Rayburn Building
Room 2141 - Judiciary Committee
HOT TOPICS
Visa Tracking
Section 245(i)
H-1B Visas
Overall Reductions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"critical step"
-- Rep. Tom Tancredo,
chairman, Congressional Immigration caucus
Tancredo, the most visible national leader for immigration reform and reduction, joined Chairman Gekas at the press conference introducing H.R. 5013. He said the Gekas billl is the "second critical step toward the reform of our dysfunctional immigration system," the first step being the White House plan to reorganize the government. The White House reorganization, according to Tancredo, will create the institutional framework for effective immigration enforcement; H.R. 5013 will create a sensible policy framework. .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
61 - Arch Conservative
Bush gave a speech this morning in which he said the govt would help people "assimilate" into American society. I guess he was so happy that someone told him what the word means this morning that he felt the need to explain the word as he went on to add "that means we will help them learn our language, values, and culture."
I can't believe I voted for this douchebag.
John Kerry........
Oh yeah I can believe it. I'm just pissed that I had to.
62 - Dave Nalle
You didn't HAVE to vote for him, AC. You could have voted for Michael Badnarik like I did. Kerry wasn't the only other choice.
Dave
63 - Maurice
I couldn't vote for Bush. Kerry was hopeless. Badnarik is unconcerned about borders.
I abstained for the first time in my voting life.
64 - Peter J
Help, I'm confused!
Is this the same man who wrote in a Jan 7, 05 letter that there is no reason an American worker should have a problem living on minimum wage salary? In case you didn't know that is $5.35 an hour, $214.00 a week before deductions, gross $11,128.00 a year! That's hard core, man!
He did the math, it all worked out just fine on paper. As I read this article I thought,'this guy has obviously never been in that position, with no one to turn to when you overload, which you eventually will',or 'this guy must not eat, drive or date, ever'! He is most definitely a coldheart. Not an empathetic bone in his body! What a lucky man he was!
But wait!
Here is that same man, sympathy oozing from every pore, defending the situation of millions of lawbreaking malcontents who aren't willing to follow the letter of the law, as do millions from other countries around the world who work hard within the letter of the law, follow the system and all it demands in order to become Americans.
These are the people we want in this country, not people who break our laws before even becomming citizens.
So, where do you stand? Screw Americans who are trying to survive under the law even though it calls for them to earn literally slave wages, wages which I myself had to survive on once, working two full time jobs and still needed assistance from family in order to make child support payments OR lets extend a helping hand to people who break our laws to come into our country to work.
Understand, I'm not comparing apples to oranges, the situations are obviously quite different.
I'm trying to figure out why Illegal aliens warrant empathy from an American but some poor American who finds himself down on his luck gets scribbles from a calculator!
65 - Tim
Dave, so you are telling me that the immigrant was a skilled baker when he came here. I highly doubt it. I don't want to sit here and bash different sides, but just for things to be made right. It sounds like everyone arguing for the illegals are arguing for open borders and allow anyone who wants in, to waltz right in. If that is the case, those people are ignorant. However, if anyone listened to Bush's speech, he went through what seemed to be a starting point.
You all say immigrants are taking unwanted jobs which is very untrue. I go to college in the Chicago area, and work with many illegals whom have falsified papers. They are working jobs that make $16+ an hour. It is hard to find decent work like that in this area and I happened to be lucky enough to show up at the right day to land the job there.
What needs to be done is close the borders better, allow any illegals here go through the due process if they want to become a citizen, and if they don't want to be citizens and be still be a lawbreaking immigrant then deport them.
66 - Clavos
Dave, so you are telling me that the immigrant was a skilled baker when he came here. I highly doubt it.
Why, Tim?
67 - Tim
I just doubted that the job required there to even be this very skilled baker. It was probably a job that anyone could learn is what I was getting at.... I could be wrong though I guess
68 - gonzo marx
comment #57 sez...
*As for the $9.50 an hour, I doubt that you can hire a native born American who's a skilled baker for that, hence the need to hire illegals.*
now, correct me if i am wrong, but doesn't capitalism require that if you cannot get something for a price due to supply and demand, the price increases until the demand is met via supply?
here i thought that was a prime tenet, i wonder why this doesn't seem to apply to labor in the minds of many...and it STILL does NOT justify knowingly hiring an illegal alien
Victor in comment #48 sez...
*When both Gonzo and Bing spew the same poorly conceived cookie-cutter rationalizations for their paranoid anti-immigrant fervor, it's a sure sign there is a major propaganda campaign underway.*
first, any regular reader knows full well that Bing and i are in diametric opposition on the vast majority of Issues....so when we do agree, there just might be something worth looking at...
also to Victor, i take offense at your characterization of my comments, the analysis of which is so distorted that it makes me think you didn't even bother to read them
NEVER have i advocated for wholesale deportation...instead i stated quite clearly that the borders should be secured, and current laws enforced...THEN we can debate and decide what to do with those illegals who are in the country
now i did also state that utilizing forged federal documents is a felony, a crime which should be addressed, and i also have many times pointed out that those who entered illegally should get behind EVERY SINGLE legal applicant for immigration...those who have followed the rules should reap the rewards LONG before those who knowingly broke the Law
simple enough?
Excelsior?
69 - Maurice
rarely do I agree with gonzo...
but for the second time in this thread I do!
70 - Gina Weiss
All five of these workers were hired on the basis of what appeared to be legitimate work visas and social security cards. The employer had no idea that they were illegal and no reason to question them based on their documentation. It was not a matter of turning a blind eye. He had specifically checked their papers and they seemed legitimate.
I can see this culminating in a new government agency...more new regulations and paperwork for small business owners. The CIA - Check on Illegal Aliens
It seems today that we live in a world where personal responsibility should have no consequence. Big Daddy (Government) should fix everything for me. I think middle America is about to tell Big Daddy to lay down the crack pipe of socialism and get the hell off our backs.
I'm one of the first in line!
71 - Tim
I was wanting to write something like Gonzo just did, but didn't think I could have said it very well. But, the reason noone wants some of these low priced jobs is because immigrants are driving the pay down cause some are willing to work for nothing. They are simply messing up supply and demand for this country.
72 - gonzo marx
well Ginz, the fact that the workers produced proper documentations is why the employer is not culpable nor liable for criminal charges under the 1986 laws
which i did state earlier in the thread....the ones i want to see fined/jailed are the employers who knowingly and willingly hire illegals
many instances of companies using the SAME social security numbers for hundreds of employees, but due ot regulations the SS administration and the IRS don't seem to be able to report this fact to the proper enforcement agencies
isn't that not only unfair to every legal working person, but a threat to National Security as well?
side note: thanks for the intellectual honesty Maurice..i know we often do disagree, but you have never come across as any kind of unthinking partisan...if more were like you , more could actually get done...and our Nation woudl be a better place...
just my one sixth billionths of the world's Opinion...
your mileage may vary
Excelsior?
73 - gonzo marx
correction: my apologies, the first line should have said "Gina" not "Ginz"
Excelsior?
74 - Clavos
Tim:
They are simply messing up supply and demand for this country.
You're right, they are skewing the lower pay scales, but not those of the whole country, because the vast majority of those "wetbacking" across the border have few or no skills--this is one of the principal reasons they're coming; they can't find work at home. When they do find work, it usually pays $5 USD or less a day.
The better educated/trained people mostly have no desire to move here; they're doing fine at home. The few of that group who do want to move here usually are well-connected enough and have enough money to hire the right people to help them come legally.
I worked for many years for a Mexican company with operations here in the USA--we never had any trouble bringing in a skilled, educated Mexican worker legally.
75 - zingzing
clavos: "When [illegal immigrants] do find work, it usually pays $5 USD or less a day."
what have you been reading, the grapes of wrath? okies... less than 5 bucks a day... can't buy lunch with that. if they were being payed that little, do you really, really think they would come here? oh, wait, that's $5 tax free! nevermind...