There is a price this country is paying, for the way discourse has changed today. From Rush Limbaugh, FoxNews pundits Hannity and Vetter, to the likes of Ann Coulter, WorldNetDaily, the Free Republic and on and on, there has been an outcry of faith, specifically the Christian faith, being under attack. From Godless liberals, European nations, gay people, secularists, the ACLU, the NPR, planned parenthood, school teachers and who can forget those dear sweet librarians with their demonic internet computers, it's all always presented as an attack on faith, on Christianity. What used to be the trend of saying 'Happy Holidays', in order to be all-inclusive, is now turned around to be an attempt to be specifically exclusive against Christianity. After years of this paranoid rhetoric, is it any wonder the sheep want to chew their way out of the pen and seek blood?
Now we have fundamentalist Senator Frist and his new television show 'Justice Sunday' portraying faith as being under attack via filibusters. The whole purpose of the Democratic filibustering in the Senate is nothing more than an attack on Christian values by Frist's reasoning. apparently, filibustering has nothing to do with politics, it's all about gettin the faith. Bringin it down.
There is a consequence to us all, as long as moderate mainstream Christians allow this mentality and abuse of their principles to go unchecked, and it is compounded by allowing a President to so closely align his office with a particular religion. It is also compounded by politicians like Tom DeLay, and like Jeb Bush and the whole Florida Legislature who jump into the fray, attempting to impose their religiously based ideological principles upon a man and the wishes of his wife. It was the Terri Schiavo case, that should have been the watershed moment for many people. It was the Schiavo case where far right murderers and terrorists came out of the woodwork and were embraced by the mainstream conservative platform.
WorldNetDaily portrays Bo Gritz, of Ruby Ridge fame, as a hero. Hal Turner, the author of the book that inspired McVeigh to blow up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, and his ideology of terror and murder, was the topic du jour on right wing forums for months. But it was Randall Terry that should have opened peoples eyes. On all the major news networks, it was Randall Terry who was the chief spokesman for the Schindler family. They actually tracked him down to be their spokesperson.
This Washington Post article from 1995, which showcases how Operation Rescue, (founded by Randall Terry, an anti-abortion organization involved in the deaths of two doctors, two clinic workers and one volunteer), was even back in 95, lamenting 'It's all about silence — silencing the Christian message."
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Lono
I believe the Christian right is the biggest danger America is facing today. I do not fear the Taliban, for they are not in my backyard and making decisions for me.
2 - Lou
Neo-con Lou Dobbs? He's clearly a paleo-con.
3 - Sandy
I believe anyone against the minute men should leave our country and go to Mexico to live. It seems that those of you who disapprove of the Minute Men would like the US to become Mexico. We fought that war once. As far as the Schiavo Case I think it was a run away judicial system. I love Sean Hannity and believe he is trying to get to the truth.
We have too many illegals here and need to put a stop to it. They are being kept with my tax money also. I have a friend who lives in the carolinas and says they can get drivers licence there and don't need insurance. This means if they have an accident and no insurance the government pays and that means I pay. This is crap. I am tired of paying for the illegals. This is the US and we should be promoting us and not illegals.
4 - Steve S
Sandy, I do not support illegals coming into this country and us doing nothing about it. The answer that you and the MinuteMen prefer, cold-blooded murder, I cannot support either.
5 - SFC SKI
Where have the Minutemen advance murder as part of their agenda?
6 - Steve S
SFC SKI, the Minutemen do not publicly endorse murder, of course.
I know that the post is long, but I have provided ample evidence, and if you care to look, there is plenty more evidence out there, that the agenda that the MinuteMen promote on the airwaves is not the same as what the MinuteMen are doing on the border.
It's in the post, SFC SKI.
7 - Dave Nalle
Interesting article, and only a few problems that I have to bring attention to.
First, you assume that President Bush is party to the religious lunacy you document so well. This is by no means accurate. If you look at the judicial appointees whose filibustering you're so proud of, many of them are surprisingly moderate and only a couple seem to be religiously extreme by any definition. Bush's actions in other areas also argue very strongly that he is not a social conservative. He placates them well, but when it comes to delivering on their issues he does zip for them.
Yes, there are religious extremists and some hold public office, but they have by no means come to dominate the Republican party even if they are very outspoken. In fact, their current rather loud tactics suggest that they are trying to push an advantage that they think might be fading away as traditional Republican values reassert themselves. They need to score their points while they can before the inevitable backlash.
You also completely overlook the equally extreme elements in the Democratic party. They are as crazed, as dangerous and as troubling as anything on the right. One of the reason why the right wing extremists have become so successful is that the extremism of the left has driven moderates - who are the majority of the population - to choose, and many of them have reluctantly been willing to accept the excesses of the right when faced with the alternative excesses of the left.
Personally I'd prefer to see someone articulate a comprehensible moderate political philosophy, build a party around it and send the extremists to the fringes where they belong.
BTW, Lou Dobbs is a protectionist quasi-socialist, not a conservative.
Dave
8 - Steve S
First, you assume that President Bush is party to the religious lunacy you document so well.
Where do I do that, Dave? I pointed out that Bush called the MinuteMen vigilantes. Even he doesn't support what they and people like Sandy do.
You also completely overlook the equally extreme elements in the Democratic party.
Dave, when I talk about one party running amok, I cannot cover every party under the sun. There are extreme elements in the Democratic party, they have nothing to do with the religious terrorism that some of us are going through.
If a bank robber is going to point a gun at you, do you also reflect on the badness of the pimp?
9 - George
Dear Steve S.(whoever you are)
There you go again. Accusing the Right of being civic terrotrists when in fact the is what you are. You say the Christians are intollerant when it is you who are intollerant. If you are allowed to have your agenda, then why can't Christians have their agenda? Besides some of these people you describe are not real Christians any more than Hitler was a Christian. Real Christians don't preach hate or insurrection. Those people who do are Libertarians or Bolsheviks not Christian conservatives. You really should try and find a school or college that teaches the different spectrums of America's political life and comparative religion so you could know what you are talking about.
You are as radical as those you accuse only you are so smart that you think you know everything. That makes you one of the most dangerous people in the country, because you don't know what you don't know. You are the other half of OXY-...., and I pity you. You just don't get it. You want to return to the wild west where the biggest and fastest guns (in your case, the biggest maouth with the smallest mind) were the boss.
What am I missing here? Who the heck is Steve S.
10 - Steve S
You say the Christians are intollerant when it is you who are intollerant
In addition to your lack of spelling ability, you apparently cannot read either.
I provided quotes FROM the Christian extremists who say they are intolerant. I don't say it, they do themselves.
If you are allowed to have your agenda, then why can't Christians have their agenda?
This post is about extremism. This post is not about mom and pop Christian, beyond the fact that they are sitting on their ass, letting terrorism occur under the banner of their religion.
You want to return to the wild west where the biggest and fastest guns
Clearly you did not read the post. Apparently nobody commenting really has. I am not a MinuteMan, I do not support using guns in this case. Detaining illegals is one thing, but as I have pointed out, that is not all that is happening.
Who the heck is Steve S.
A law abiding voter exercising my freedom of speech, got a problem with that?
11 - Jon Sobel
Wow. I mean, WOW. I thought Dave Nalle was sort of a lone anachronism, howling in the wilderness against those durn Commie Pinko Socialists. Now I see others on the Right see things the same way - the only difference is that Dave can spell.
Where are all these alleged "socialists"? Because of where I live and what I do for a living, probably at least 90% my friends and co-workers are liberals, and I don't think I know a single socialist. Oh, wait - they must be hiding their secret identities, waiting to come out on a signal from their alien overlords. Could it be... the guy working in the next office? Omigosh. I'm terrified.
12 - Steve S
What should be more telling to us all, Jon, is how many people from the Right, you will see on threads, who when confronted with evidence of their lawlessness and vigilantism, will attack YOU for providing the evidence.
13 - Dave Nalle
George, there are a lot of things in this article which really reach beyond what fact can support, but the one thing on which he's dead right is that radical Christians are intolerant. God told them they're right, therefore anyone who disagrees with them is not just wrong, but outright evil.
>>Where do I do that, Dave? I pointed out that Bush called the MinuteMen vigilantes. Even he doesn't support what they and people like Sandy do.<<
I came to this conclusion not because of the minutemen issue, but because of the filibustering issue. You seem to think that the filibustering is going on to stop religiously extreme judges from getting into office - which suggests that Bush made appointments of that nature. But the fact is that Bush's judicial nominees are mostly pretty moderate - several of those being blocked are even former Clinton appointees.
>>Dave, when I talk about one party running amok, I cannot cover every party under the sun. There are extreme elements in the Democratic party, they have nothing to do with the religious terrorism that some of us are going through.<<
Actually, I think the two have to be looked at together, though I understand why you didn't do it in this piece. As I see it they're two sides of the same coin. For the extremists on the left their package of secularist-progressive issues is as much a religion and just as irrationally and fanatically supported as the Christian issues of the exttreme right. The issues are different, but the evangelic personality type is the same.
Dave
14 - Steve S
there are a lot of things in this article which really reach beyond what fact can support
such as? I documented everything.
You seem to think that the filibustering is going on to stop religiously extreme judges from getting into office - which suggests that Bush made appointments of that nature.
Dave, I don't understand what is going on here. Has everybody lost the ability to reason? Nobody seems to comprehend what I am saying. There is no way to say it clearer. In the filibuster paragraph, I said 'by Frists's reasoning'. I am not Frist.
Does nobody read anymore? Is it because it's not a 30 second MTV clip?
For the extremists on the left their package of secularist-progressive issues is as much a religion and just as irrationally and fanatically supported
Dave, you always want to water criticism of the Right with criticism of the Left. I understand fair and balanced and all that, but we are talking about vigilantism, and extremism. I am talking here and now on the border. There are no leftists down there burning down SUV dealerships at the moment. There are lives being lost in the desert though. I prefer to focus on the crisis at hand.
15 - Steve S
link
16 - Dave Nalle
>>there are a lot of things in this article which really reach beyond what fact can support
such as? I documented everything.<<
Sure, you documented one white supremacist of 500 people on the border, so they're all white supremacists. You bring up crazy statements and activities by a couple of nuts like Pat Boone and Bo Gritz (ferchrissakes) and they become representative of everyone else. Taking a few extreme examples and making them the poster children for the entire right wing is what I call reaching.
>>Dave, I don't understand what is going on here. Has everybody lost the ability to reason? Nobody seems to comprehend what I am saying. There is no way to say it clearer. In the filibuster paragraph, I said 'by Frists's reasoning'. I am not Frist.<<
No, but you're the one who ascribes that reasoning to Frist and the one who concludes that his reasoning is incorrect. You're not quoting Frist, you're interpreting him.
>>Dave, you always want to water criticism of the Right with criticism of the Left. I understand fair and balanced and all that, but we are talking about vigilantism, and extremism. I am talking here and now on the border. There are no leftists down there burning down SUV dealerships at the moment. There are lives being lost in the desert though. I prefer to focus on the crisis at hand.<<
If lives are being lost we should certainly be concerned. I'm not convinced that it's happening though. The article you cite has an off-hand reference to a 'standoff' where people were killed. But as far as I can tell from various media sources no one has been reported dead and no one has been arrested. Your whole take on the minuteman thing is extreme. While there are some obvious blemishes, what they are doing has a valid point and seems to be achieving something. Some of those involved may be nuts and some may be idiots, but the overall results so far have not been negative. It's just like the WMD thing. Just because there were no WMDs you write off the whole war in Iraq and ignore all the other benefits. Because the minutemen aren't perfect paragons of virtue you write off the whole project. This fits right in with my comment recently on another thread about the relentless negativism of the left.
Dave
17 - Steve S
You bring up crazy statements and activities by a couple of nuts like Pat Boone and Bo Gritz (ferchrissakes) and they become representative of everyone else.
Dave, the whole premise of the Schiavo section was to illustrate that it is not ME who is making the ideological fringe be representative of the Christian religion, it is evidenced in the links I provided that the mainstream media is treating these people as the spokesmen of the conservative Right. I have provided evidence of that. You are laying the blame on the messenger.
No, but you're the one who ascribes that reasoning to Frist and the one who concludes that his reasoning is incorrect. You're not quoting Frist, you're interpreting him.
I ascribe that Frist is portraying the filibusters as an attack on Christianity? YES, I certainly do! Finally something gotten right. I got my evidence for that from the subtitle of the show: Stop the Filibuster of People of Faith.
By my logic, that is portraying the filibustering as being an attack on Christianity, which I point out. I guess by your logic, you come to a different conclusion.
If lives are being lost we should certainly be concerned. I'm not convinced that it's happening though.
I posted evidence from a freeper on a right wing site where he brags about destroying the hidden caches of food in the desert. And I posted an article that pointed out that the Border Patrol thinks that the Minutemen are putting the Border Patrol at risk. Just dismiss the whole thing though because it doesn't fit in with your ideology. As for evidence of an undocumented alien with no record in an American database being reported as killed, you really are naive. Come out here to California and see how things really work. Do you know how many miles of border, how many miles of desert there are?
Just because there were no WMDs you write off the whole war in Iraq and ignore all the other benefits.
You have me confused with someone else.
18 - SFC SKI
I went back and reread the pertinent points, I don't see how I missed it in the first place. The possible ties to supremaacists and the Minutemen is a good thing to be aware of, as of yet however, I haven't heard of Minutmen being involved in murders of illegal immigrants. Still, it is a good point.
I would like to see the extreme religionists have less infuluence in lawmaking. It seems to me that today only the extremist of any side are succesfully dominating either party.
19 - Steve S
Here is a story from the Arizona Central, about a man who is charged with 7 counts of assault with a deadly weapon.
Mexican gangs declare war on Minutemen
see reference in earlier post about MinuteMen getting ready to step up aggressive behavior too.
Since the AP can't find a body, Dave, beyond those which people come across in the desert all the time, we can conclude that things are just fine out here.
I'm not trying to set immigration policy here, this is about an undercurrent in this country, of a perception of Christians being attacked from all sides, perpetuated by the media and things have long past simmering and are reaching a boiling point. This isn't about furthering my agenda, this is about saving lives in the culture war. I haven't promoted any pro- or anti-immigration policy here.
And it's not so much about immigration as it is about the perception of Christians that the world is out to get them. We're now paying the price for that falsehood in many ways.
20 - Steve S
Here is a story in the Tucson Weekly about how the MinuteMen manipulate the media. So when you dismiss the fact that nothing is happening because the media isn't reporting it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
From the Tucson Citizen:
The Border Patrol has tried to reduce deaths by clamping down on the area with its Arizona Border Control Initiative, which was recently renewed for a second year. The aim is to channel immigrants into less deadly terrain. At the same time, the volunteer Minuteman Project, which had been patrolling eastern Arizona's border in Cochise County, seems to be directing more immigrants back into the western desert.
---
You won't hear about them dying, because they won't end up in the morgue, Dave. Local news is always a better source of info than cable news, unless you want to hear about Michael Jackson.
21 - Steve S
Again, from the Tucson Citizen, a report on how Mexican tourists spend 1 billion a year in Arizona, but how the shops there are suffering because people are now afraid to visit our country legally.
I am for immigration reform and a decrease in illegal immigrants, but not through vigilantism. There is never anything good to come from that. I am suprised that you guys are not against this sort of behavior, and I'm surprised that you all do not see negative consequences from the years of mainstream Christians being told over an d over again that everything on the planet is an assault on their faith.
22 - Juan Schoch
Huh? Mob rules? How about ignorant mob of uninformed, biased, ignoroids who have been heavily influenced by the mainstream propaganda press that doesn't even bother to do responsible investigative journalism anymore. Yeah the mob does rule and you are part of the mob apparently.
http://tekgnosis.typepad.com
23 - Steve S
Well, Juan, you are accusing me of being heavily influenced by mainstream propaganda press, but if you read the post, you would see that I am critical of the mainstream media and how it has turned from true journalism to mislead instead. I am not influenced by them, but if you read that, you would know that.
So perhaps they have all given up on investigative journalism because apparently all the readers have given up on reading.
24 - SFC SKI
Well said Steve, I hardly read mainstream news anymore; outsideo f the headlines it rarely informs, and is seldom objective.
25 - marc
Steve it does nothing for your credability when you post a link that's two weeks old (man who is charged with 7 counts of assault) and the man has since been cleared of all charges.
In addition your link (Mexican gangs declare war on Minutemen) leads to an entirely different story, here is the first para:
SAN BERNARDINO"Gangs have declared war on San Bernardino and Colton police officers and put them on hit lists in retaliation for the recent shooting deaths of two men by officers, police said.
and it's 7 months old.
Lets assume the gangs have declared war on the minutemen. Why would that be? Maybe because they fear a few of their breatheren would be stopped or delayed coming across the border?
Or given their "stock in trade" the gangs are probably pissed because vulnerable targets for their thieving ways are being stopped or re-directed to other areas.
So what's your point?