The term 'Islamofascism' offends Muslims. But what name to give to a brand of fascism Muslims have brought to the West?
The media have been abuzz in recent weeks condemning the Islamofascism Awareness Week, held last week on college and university campuses across America. The event was organized by former communist turned conservative activist, David Horowitz, and his Freedom Center.…
Article comments
26 - handyguy
The underemployed kids of North African heritage in suburban Paris are possibly not the best examples of "Islamofascism" or whatever you want to call it. Their problems and the motivation for their rioting may be only indirectly related, if at all, to Islam and Islamism. The class-warfare back-and-forth of the last several comments is probably irrelevant to the main argument of this (quite offensive) article.
The middle-class Islamist radicals among doctors and engineers in the Pakistani communities in England are much more to the point here. They are not alienated by lack of economic opportunity. Can their hearts and minds [or at least some of them] be won back? If not, that's where our worries lie.
The unemployed youths are just cannon fodder.
27 - Clavos
Good points, handy.
According to reports, most (if not all) the 9/11 perpetrators were well educated, middle class people who grew up in comfortable circumstances.
28 - Dave Nalle
As such? Marxism never limited itself to highly developed capitalism or even to embryonic capitalism . Class society started long before capitalism. Have you heard: "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles."
Yes, of course I've heard it - from a number of professors in grad school in addition to the writings of Marx. And it was just as idiotic from both sources.
Afghanistan does indeed have a class structure. At its core are the land owners.
In much of Afghanistan land is owned not by individuals, but by tribes or extended family groups. To perceive the Sheikh's second cousin who works a little farm as an exploited lower class person is to try to impose an artificial and irrelevant model of society. In fact, he is part of a larger group in which his status may be quite high, even though his circumstances appear superficially to be those of a 'lower class'.
Even Russia in 1917 was not primarily a capitalist state. It was primarily a feudal monarchy. Capitalism was limited to a few urban centers and the capitalist class did not hold the reins of government. Class analysis was not only applicable there but necessary to organizing the revolution.
Which is why Marxism caught on there, because unlike much of the rest of the world, Imperial Russia actually did have a strictly defined and rigid class system.
"Rigid class systems are largely incompatible with modern free market capitalism..."
Rigid? Only to a degree. Capitalism itself broke down the absolute rigidity of the feudal system.
Actually, that was Mercantilism which is significantly different from Capitalism. You could think of it as state-licensed capitalism, and it perpetuated class divisions while supporting the development of trade and business.
This is the basis of the capitalist's claim to it being free. But the rigidity does still exist. Today the greatest hope of many is to marry into a higher class or win the lottery. Of course there is the opportunity of making it big in sports or music. To many the path is crime or politics, or is that redundant.
You live in a weird world which bears little resemblance to the one most people in America live in.
You seem to have forgotten that most people succeed by working hard or getting an education and advancing on their merits - which is really surprisingly easy in our society.
Class structure in decaying capitalism is becoming more rigid. The distribution of wealth is becoming more lopsided.
I'm afraid you've been sucked in by leftist propaganda. In fact, upward mobility is stronger than ever and the gap between management and labor is smaller than ever. The super-wealthy are not really part of the domestic economy and shouldn't be used as the basis for assessing disparity of wealth.
This is true, but only true in pre-capitalist countries. In Iran it is the capitalists that rule. There the creation of opportunity for the masses is in opposition to capitalism. It is the capitalists there that use religion to keep their population in check. The real culprit is the capitalist class and not the Islamic religion.
Don't let fact interfere with your continuing attempts to shoehorn everything into your outdated marxist box. Iran is an overwhelmingly middle class society. It's a country of small businesses, tradesmen, educated professionals and entrepreneurs. It has a GINI rating comparable to the US.
This is also true in the U.S. and other developed, and imperialist states.
Where is this 'empire' that the US controls?
Religion is used by the ruling class as a whole to keep people divided and ignorant. Again, it is not the religion, but those with class interests to defend.
Please stop quoting dogma and try to think for yourself. Marxism itself functions much like a religion, and you're talking like a brainwashed cultist.
Dave
29 - Dr Dreadful
Dave, Marx did have a point about class struggle, even if he did mischaracterize it and overemphasize its importance.
Almost without exception, civilizations have always had their rich, powerful overlords and their peasant class. The emperors, kings and barons did not become so through agreeing politely with the rest of the population that they should be in charge. They became so by the sword.
30 - Dr Dreadful
Where is this 'empire' that the US controls?
You're sitting in it.
The United States covers a land area far larger than most of history's great empires. There are very few, if any, of its States and territories which were not originally acquired through conquest.
31 - handyguy
And while Dave can gee-whiz all he wants about the land of equal opportunity, Dave didn't grow up in an inner-city black neighborhood or among illegal immigrants barely finding subsistence-level work.
Marxist blather may have little relation to the real world; neither does happy talk about hard work inevitably leading to success.
32 - Buster Clip
Horowitz is right about the indoctrination going on in american universities. You can't go to a class nowadays without hearing bleeding heart mumbo jumbo in one form or another.
33 - Clavos
"Dave didn't grow up in an inner-city black neighborhood"
True, and sadly for too many of those who do, it's a dead end, but not because of our being a capitalist system; the issue is far too complex for such a simplistic cause/effect answer.
But you should ask Maurice, who grew up under decidedly trying circumstances and has done very well, pretty much exclusively by his own wit and effort, whether he looks at the US as a land of opportunity.
Given his history, and in his role as one who saw opportunity and seized it on his own (both of which he has described on these threads), his opinion is quite informed on the matter.
34 - Baritone
Dave,
What IS your experience with the lower classes? Are you one of Horatio Alger's great success stories? Did you pull yourself up by your boot straps, put your shoulder to the wheel and scrabble up from the depths of poverty to your many and varied successes in life?
If you did, you have obviously forgotten from whence you came.
I did not come out of poverty, but I have witnessed a good deal of it from a variety of perspectives. The problem with you is that you see everything through your rose colored Republican glasses. You look around you and see all these fine, upstanding conservatives living the good life, enjoying the fruits of their investments.
For the great majority of people in this country, investments aren't even on the radar. For most, living in a comfortable suburban or Xurban home, driving high end wheels and having a house full of electronic toys is little more than a dream - something they are constantly reminded of when they see the ads for all that crap on the tube. Regardless of what you may believe, a great number of people in this country are poor. In many respects, even those who earn above the so called poverty line are just barely scraping by, living paycheck to paycheck, hoping against hope that they don't get hurt or sick or laid off. Many of these people are little more than one missed paycheck away from foreclosure, or eviction, or having their car repossessed. Few of these people have any life or health insurance. Some can't even manage auto insurance. Any disruption of their income, and/or even a small unexpected expense could send them into bankruptcy, or worse, into the street.
Capitalism has obviously been great for you. But there are a lot of people, Americans, some are even Republicans, those who I spoke of elsewhere that were essentially fooled into believing the GOP had something for them, who would have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
If you haven't had the opportunity, watch an episode or two of the Discovery Channel's "Dirty Jobs" program. Familiarize yourself with some of the truly shitty jobs some people do to keep us all fat and sassy. I've never heard them mention money on the show - what many of these people make, but I am reasonably certain that many make little, if any, more than minimum wage for the privilege of essentially wiping our asses, cleaning up our shit. The "American" experience for many has no resemblence to the antiseptic, carefree lives of the Cleavers or Ozzie and Harriet.
B-tone
35 - handyguy
Dirty Jobs is a very entertaining show...but I certainly never thought of it as having a political dimension. The guy who does the different dirty job each week is such a smartass, sexy-comedian type...hard to take the show seriously. Though I do get your point.
36 - Clavos
"For the great majority of people in this country, investments aren't even on the radar."
Not true, B-tone. These days, millions of workers are investors through their 401Ks.
37 - Dave Nalle
Dave didn't grow up in an inner-city black neighborhood or among illegal immigrants barely finding subsistence-level work.
And you know this how, Handy? I did, in fact, spend a number of my teenage years living in the inner city of Washington DC. We weren't poor, but poverty was only a block or two away, so I wasn't exactly isolated from it.
Today I live in a rural community with lots of poor neighbors and an awful lot of legal and illegal immigrants of all sorts. I rub elbows with all sorts of people on a daily basis, largely because of volunteer work I do in the community. And I actually talk to people - an often overlooked way of educating oneself on the lives of others.
My direct experience is that most people work damned hard to succeed, and in most cases when they do work hard, they do advance economically, regardless of their background. Statistics seem to bear this observation out. As for illegals, with some few exceptions, most of them are among the hardest working people around and they also become successful as a result of their efforts.
You look around you and see all these fine, upstanding conservatives living the good life, enjoying the fruits of their investments.
No, I look around me and see hard working, mostly apolitical people who will do whatever it takes to make themselves successful and to provide a better life for their family. You clearly have NO idea where or how or among what kind of people I live.
For the great majority of people in this country, investments aren't even on the radar.
Actually, 54% of the people in the nation currently own stocks either directly or through mutual funds in a 401K or other investment program.
You are desperately out of touch with the reality of working and middle class America. You're one of those guilty-feeling leftists who feels that they don't deserve the things they have and bizarrely assumes that the working people of the nation cannot succeed without your help or the help of government, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Regardless of what you may believe, a great number of people in this country are poor.
Of course there are poor people in this country, but even our poor are better off than most people living in other countries, and we DO have institutions which care for the poor and help them get out of poverty if they're willing to do some work themselves.
In many respects, even those who earn above the so called poverty line are just barely scraping by, living paycheck to paycheck, hoping against hope that they don't get hurt or sick or laid off. Many of these people are little more than one missed paycheck away from foreclosure, or eviction, or having their car repossessed. Few of these people have any life or health insurance. Some can't even manage auto insurance. Any disruption of their income, and/or even a small unexpected expense could send them into bankruptcy, or worse, into the street.
I lived exactly that way for a number of years. I was earning barely enough to get by. I had to roll start my car for almost a year because I couldn't afford a $100 alternator. I had no health, life or auto insurance. After a while I got tired of it so I took a second, part-time job and earned my way out of my circumstances.
Capitalism has obviously been great for you. But there are a lot of people, Americans, some are even Republicans, those who I spoke of elsewhere that were essentially fooled into believing the GOP had something for them, who would have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
You're just dead wrong. Working people DO understand exactly what I'm talking about, even if they're Democrats, because they work and they know where the money they earn comes from and exactly how they can earn more money and the sacrifices they might have to make in order to do it.
You're never going to accept it, because you seem strongly insulated from reality, but most people who are poor or relatively low earning are that way by choice and realize it and have a pretty good idea what they could do to improve their lives.
Those who are poor because of health issues or tragedy of one kind or another do exist, but they are very few in number.
If you haven't had the opportunity, watch an episode or two of the Discovery Channel's "Dirty Jobs" program. Familiarize yourself with some of the truly shitty jobs some people do to keep us all fat and sassy.
I've watched the show, and if you think those jobs are what poor people are doing you're even more out of touch than I thought. The jobs shown on the show are unusual and entertaining and unpleasant, but they aren't the kinds of jobs most poor people are doing. You need to familiarize yourself with the mindless drudgery of the grocery store checker or the hotel maid.
: I've never heard them mention money on the show - what many of these people make, but I am reasonably certain that many make little, if any, more than minimum wage for the privilege of essentially wiping our asses, cleaning up our shit.
Here are the wages for the most unpleasant jobs I can find listed at the BLS:
Slaughterhouse workers - $10/hr
Rock-Splitter in a Quarry - $13/hr
Door to Door Sales - $11/hr
Restroom Attendant - $9/hr + tips
Pesticide Applier - $14/hr
Home Health Aid - $10/hr
Now these are obviously not the absolute worst jobs, but they're the more common and generally unrewarding jobs. None of them are paid anything near minimum wage.
Dave
38 - Les Slater
Seems like we're still in feudal times. With the troubles at CitiCorp we see the exit of a Prince only to see a Sir Winffred enter.
39 - Clavos
Guess there's only one Sandy Weill.
40 - handyguy
My point was not that hard work is irrelevant to success, but that Dave's generalizations go too far the other way. There really are people who start out with the deck stacked against them. Why deny this? Just as there are financially successful people whose greatest skill is cheating or trampling over others. That's capitalism too.
None of this means we should become socialists next week. But why not keep the rhetoric in check and the facts out front?
And if 46% of the working population doesn't invest in the stock market, your statistics almost belie your own point. Not a majority, but a very large minority are outside the gates of 401k Paradise. [Not so Paradise-like the last couple months, yikes!]
41 - moonraven
Baritone:
Let's put it this way--I am not a Muslim, although I spend time in Muslim countries and have a fair number of Muslim friends--but I don't HAVE to be one to come down on their side--against you warmongering rapacious gringos.
42 - Martin Lav
This trend towards radicalization of Islam (I like Shariaists) I believe is based on economic inequality and as a way to keep the classes in check. I lived in Iran for a number of years and the growing middle-class there is going to be the savior to this extremism only if the US government and radicals like the author of this blog and Horowitz and Nalle and Clavos and such are quited by left leaning moderates who have the brains and the will to point out another way.
This whole subject of Muslim Europe is similar to the "Browning" of the US and what is happening with Illegal Immigration in the US. The ruling class is threatened by the change or perceived threat to their culture, while all the while complaining that white/European kids won't work nowadays. Life is grand and we can all climb up the economic ladder as long as we have enough donkeys to pull the load. Well the donkeys are all fed by their religion and those who preach this religion are the ones who have the power. The chickens will come home to roost and since we aren't allowing the middle class in Iran to foment their own brand of Islamism and we are allowing unfettered importation of cheap labor into our own country, the days of our own feudal system are numbered.
43 - Dave Nalle
My point was not that hard work is irrelevant to success, but that Dave's generalizations go too far the other way. There really are people who start out with the deck stacked against them. Why deny this?
I didn't deny it. Certainly it's harder to succeed if you are brought up poor and uneducated and in an environment where hard work isn't valued. But the point is that even the worst conditions don't stop everyone. And the success of those who do overcome the worst conditions, shows that it's possible and that it can be possible for even more people.
Just as there are financially successful people whose greatest skill is cheating or trampling over others. That's capitalism too.
I'd say that's human nature, whether capitalism is involved or not. You can still trample over others to advance yourself in a complete non-capitalist system.
None of this means we should become socialists next week. But why not keep the rhetoric in check and the facts out front?
The 'facts' are led by the simple reality that socialism as a system does not permit individuals to advanced based on merit. That alone condemns the system.
And if 46% of the working population doesn't invest in the stock market, your statistics almost belie your own point. Not a majority, but a very large minority are outside the gates of 401k Paradise.
Is the glass half full or half empty? But think of it in historical context. In what other society now or in the past, have so many people been part of the investor class?
Dave
44 - moonraven
Nalle would now have us believe that his boorish, narrowminded shout-em-down behavior--the verbal equivalent of the running roughshod behavior of savage capitalism--is JUST HUMAN NEATURE.
If he is right, I will definitely cheer the end of this species!
45 - Baronius
Lav - thanks. I like the term "shariaism", even though it's a fake word. I've seen "caliphism" too, but I could see that word being offensive to many Muslims. It would be the equivalent of "popery" to a Catholic.
46 - handyguy
"Shariaism" = too hard to spell and pronounce.
"Islamist" says what needs to be said, preceded by "radical" and/or "violent" where appropriate.
47 - Baritone
Dave,
No, I am not at all "out of touch." I know of what I speak. You roll out all the same old saws about leftist guilt. It's not guilt. It's more aptly described as social conscience. But when you make absurd statements like "...most people who are poor or relatively low earning are that way by choice..." I realize how little you understand about humanity - how little you grasp about being profoundly poor and in effect detached from the main stream of society. Such a belief is little different than that of religious fundamentalists who claim that homosexuality is "a choice." The sad thing is that you apparently believe it. That is the means by which you block or eradicate any sense of guilt, as you put it, or social conscience or responsibility as I do, and justify your own greed, your own unabashed quest for wealth.
A lot of very poor people do in fact work hard, if they can find a job. It is your cynical assumption by your own statement that such people "choose" to be poor consciously because they are inherent slackers. For anyone to be energized or forward thinking, there must be at least an element of hope. Many poor people in this country and even more profoundly elsewhere in the world live without hope.
But your Pollyannaish view is that by golly they should just "pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and start all over again. Cause we got high hopes. High hopes. High apple pie in the sky hopes." Or not.
A note about 401K investors: What a crock. It's true that 401K plans are available, even from companies like Mickey Ds and other such. Eligibility requirements vary and are based upon the actual wage or salary an individual makes. The contribution for a part time employee making, say $6.50 an hour is laughably small. These people having 401Ks may serve to bloat the statistics, but does not an investor make.
There is one interesting feature to Islamic law that doesn't allow for income to be made from interest. I know they have found many ways around this law, but the spirit of it was originally based in the notion that one is not to profit from the labor of others with no actual input to those efforts other than plopping money on the table.
B-tone
48 - Dave Nalle
No, I am not at all "out of touch." I know of what I speak.
Yet the way you describe the world around you doesn't match reality.
You roll out all the same old saws about leftist guilt. It's not guilt. It's more aptly described as social conscience.
Call it what you like, but when it's based on your personal feelings rather than objective reality, it really does go beyond just 'conscience' to being more of a complex.
But when you make absurd statements like "...most people who are poor or relatively low earning are that way by choice..." I realize how little you understand about humanity - how little you grasp about being profoundly poor and in effect detached from the main stream of society.
You clearly have no idea and didn't understand what I was saying at all. Regardless of whether they are aware of it or whether you're willing to admit it, must people are poor as a result of choices which they made. Everyone has opportunities offered to them. If they recognize them and choose to take advantage of them they can better themselves. The opportunities may be fewer if you come from a background of extreme poverty, but they are still there.
Such a belief is little different than that of religious fundamentalists who claim that homosexuality is "a choice." The sad thing is that you apparently believe it. That is the means by which you block or eradicate any sense of guilt, as you put it, or social conscience or responsibility as I do, and justify your own greed, your own unabashed quest for wealth.
You really, really don't get it at all. I have made conscious decisions in my life NOT to pursue wealth at the expense of other things and to opt for a certain type of lifestyle instead of following a course which was laid out for me which could have led to greater wealth. Doesn't mean I'm poor, but I can see the choices I've made which didn't optimize my earning potential. To suggest that I'm driven by greed is about the most laughable thing I've ever heard. I spend more time doing charity work than I do working to earn a living.
A lot of very poor people do in fact work hard, if they can find a job. It is your cynical assumption by your own statement that such people "choose" to be poor consciously because they are inherent slackers.
I never said they were slackers. They just make poor decisions. Your mistake is in assuming that being poor must mean that they are there because of unseen forces outside of themselves. That's usually not the case.
For anyone to be energized or forward thinking, there must be at least an element of hope. Many poor people in this country and even more profoundly elsewhere in the world live without hope.
So let's GIVE them hope! Sounds like a fantastic plan to me. It's what I want to work towards. Help them make better choices and see where opportunity lies and move on to better lives. That's an excellent thing to try to accomplish.
A note about 401K investors: What a crock. It's true that 401K plans are available, even from companies like Mickey Ds and other such. Eligibility requirements vary and are based upon the actual wage or salary an individual makes. The contribution for a part time employee making, say $6.50 an hour is laughably small. These people having 401Ks may serve to bloat the statistics, but does not an investor make.
Please find me a McDonalds employee who earnes $6.50 an hour. Again you show how out of touch with the real world you are. And 401K programs don't limit how much you can put in of your own money. They just limit how much an employer is going to match, if it's a matching program.
Also, if you assume that the 54% of the population who are invested in the market are those who earn higher incomes, that group wouldn't even include most McDonalds employees. We'd be talking about people earning about double that wage as a starting point.
It always irks me when people use McDonalds employees or something equivalent as their example of the 'poor', when the truth is that the overwhelming majority of McDonalds employees and employees in similar occupations are short-term hires like students and people working second jobs, and most of them move on to other better jobs within a matter of months. The average fast food worker leaves his job after 12 weeks. That's how long it takes to find something better paying. Those who DO stick around usually do so because they get on the management track very quickly so they have an incentive to stay longer at higher pay.
Dave
49 - Dr Dreadful
Please find me a McDonalds employee who earnes $6.50 an hour.
I have plenty of clients who work for McDonald's at $7.50 an hour, which is above your figure but is the minimum wage here in California. Confidentiality forbids me from naming names, however: you'll have to take my word for it.
50 - Dave Nalle
No, I believe you, Dr. D. I've seen the figures on McDonalds wages. Nationwide the lowest wage any of their workers are paid is $7.00 an hour and that's in the poorest areas of the country. Here in Austin they start considerably higher than that. Still not exactly raking in the cash, but pretty good for an entry level job which you'll probably leave after a few months.
Dave
51 - Baritone
Dave,
You know nothing of my "reality." You know nothing of where I live and work. Oh, and thanks for the two bit psychology. Again, you demonstrate your lack of any grasp of human behaviour and motivations. You believe you capture the essence of humanity in facts and figures which you love to lay out without any notion that such figures can be and often are skewed to reflect the bias or agenda of the entity producing them. If it's in black and white, it must be true.
People are ultimately responsible for their particular situations, but poor decisions by many people are often the result of poor education, long standing depravation and the lack of a level playing field.
I knew you would challenge my $6.50 an hour figure, so I inquired at a nearby Mickey Ds as to their usual starting wage. Two of the people working while I was in the store said that they had, in fact, started at $6.50 an hour, both within the last 3 months. As near as I could tell, the average wage at this store was around $7.75 per hour. Keep in mind that franchise operations are not bound by the same strictures as company owned stores. None of the 4 or 5 people I quizzed had yet been offered enrollment in a 401K plan. Two of them didn't even know what a 401K is. Your assumption that all of the 54% of 401K enrollees earn more than twice the minimum wage is just that - an assumption.
52 - Martin Lav
Dave,
You sure there's not a maximum pretax deduction of $15,000 per year per employee for a 401k? Not a MATCH, but a wage deferral.
53 - REMF
"Yet the way you describe the world around you doesn't match reality."
- Dave Nalle
Always nice to be lectured on world reality by a guy who lives in a fortified compound...
54 - Dave Nalle
You know nothing of my "reality." You know nothing of where I live and work.
Well, you assumed all sorts of things about where I live and how I live so I thought I ought to return the favor. I do sometimes wonder if these bizarre differences in experiences with what life in America is like may be regional. I've really only lived in four parts of the country for extended periods of time, and although they all have plenty of poverty, they do all share the characteristic that most of the poor are hard working and seem to have hope, despite the fact that they are demographically and economically very different regions.
I have to admit that I have not lived in appalachia or the rust belt where America may look very different. Where I can I do research to try to shore up my knowledge and verify if things are different elsewhere from my experience. My understanding of the rust belt is that things there are notably worse than in the rest of the country, but that most of the problems people have there could quickly be solved by just moving the hell out as many have done. Appalachia appears to be a self-contained economic and cultural bubble and what goes on there has little relationship to anything in the rest of the world.
Oh, and thanks for the two bit psychology. Again, you demonstrate your lack of any grasp of human behaviour and motivations. You believe you capture the essence of humanity in facts and figures which you love to lay out without any notion that such figures can be and often are skewed to reflect the bias or agenda of the entity producing them. If it's in black and white, it must be true.
As I noted above, my understanding of human nature comes from studying and interracting with a very wide variety of people. The facts and figures come in to explain the observations and try to understand why things are the way they are.
People are ultimately responsible for their particular situations, but poor decisions by many people are often the result of poor education, long standing depravation and the lack of a level playing field.
Sure, I don't disagree. But there are enough examples of people overcoming the worst situations to suggest that it can be done. And although the playing field is not and can likely never be completely levelled, there really are not groups of people who are systematically and overwhelmingly oppressed in the US. The one real key factor is, of course, education. And as our education system gets worse and worse inequities in the availability of opportunity become worse. That's one of the reasons why I've written so much on education reform.
I knew you would challenge my $6.50 an hour figure, so I inquired at a nearby Mickey Ds as to their usual starting wage. Two of the people working while I was in the store said that they had, in fact, started at $6.50 an hour, both within the last 3 months. As near as I could tell, the average wage at this store was around $7.75 per hour. Keep in mind that franchise operations are not bound by the same strictures as company owned stores.
When I previously called McDonalds stores around the country for research on an article I couldn't find any starting that low, but I couldn't call every store. The BLS also couldn't find any areas of the country where fastfood workers started below $7 per hour in their last survey, but as I understand it their methodology doesn't consider someone a worker until they've been there for at least 3 months, so fast promotion would make them miss some starting wages, and McDonalds promotes VERY quickly.
Out of curiosity, what area do you live in. Maybe in the future I can use it as a worst-case scenario for study.
None of the 4 or 5 people I quizzed had yet been offered enrollment in a 401K plan.
Really? Enrollment in McDonalds 401K plan is mandatory. People are automatically enrolled when they are hired unless they specifically opt out. Maybe that's not true of franchise stores.
Two of them didn't even know what a 401K is.
Which doesn't exactly surprise me. I think that given the largely temporary and entry level jobs at McD's 401Ks are the least of their concerns.
Your assumption that all of the 54% of 401K enrollees earn more than twice the minimum wage is just that - an assumption.
Well sure, but I bet it's a pretty damned accurate assumption.
Dave
55 - Dave Nalle
You sure there's not a maximum pretax deduction of $15,000 per year per employee for a 401k?
No, I know for a fact that there's a maximum limit per employee per year. My wife exceeded it last year and I had to explain to her to stop putting so damned much money in her 401K and open an IRA.
Dave
56 - Martin Lav
Hmmm.....I must of mis-understood you before then. So, $15k maximum with an annual growth of let's say 10%, gets you how much in retirement after 30 years?
57 - Lumpy
Ooh ooh. Can I answer?
Off the top of my head about $3 million.
58 - Clavos
Well, ya might have to tighten the ol' belt a little in your lifestyle, but with $3M plus SS, ya might (just might, mind you) be able to pay the rent and put some beans on the table.
Forget buyin' a yacht, tho (or, at least not one costing more than $200K or so).
59 - Martin Lav
I wonder what my point was now.....
60 - Dave Nalle
Clavos. With $3 mil in the bank and earning 10% interest a year, I can finance my $1 mil yacht on a 5 year note and still have $100K to live on per year. That seems reasonable. I wonder if the SS would be enough to cover the mooring fees.
Dave
61 - bliffle
presuming All things being equal, like no inflation. But they never do stay equal, and inflation can kill you.
I remember guys 40 years ago making plans to minimize spending, saving up 100k and retiring on the interest. Just the same. And those guys talked exactly the same as the neocons on BC.
It won't work.
62 - handyguy
This thread certainly has wound itself a long way from "Islamofascism," eh?
63 - Dr Dreadful
That can happen when we hit on something more interesting to talk about, handy.
Remember how we tend to hijack Selwyn Duke's more xenophobic articles to talk about sports or other topics? (I notice Selwyn hasn't posted anything for a while, by the way...!)
64 - brian
What ever do you mean by fascism?
here's a definition:
'The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.[18][19][20]'
Corporatism
'and the fanatical Jew-hatred among Muslims, etc.'
I wonder if AIPAC and the mass murder of arabs in the middle east by israeli jews is responsible for this?
You mention Horowitz, a muslim hating jew, yet dont take umbrage with his fanaticism...
Better luck with your next screed...
65 - Dr Dreadful
Back to Mickey D's: In fairness, we should remember that a lot of McDonald's restaurants are run as franchises, and those companies may very well pay their workers minimum wage even though that might not be the McDonald's Corporation's policy.
Still, $6.50 an hour, $7.00 an hour: big whoop. It's still peanuts, especially once your deductions have been taken out.
66 - Dave Nalle
Yes, if we don't discuss McD's then we'd have to discuss brian's anti-semitism.
My point on the McD's wages is that franchise or not, there are very few places in the country where you can actually hire anyone for less than $7 an hour. In Austin you can't get fast food workers for less than $8 an hour and then you have to take illegals who speak no English. Your bilingual supervisor to go with them is going to cost a lot more.
As for deductions, don't forget that when you're earning $7/hr you aren't paying taxes. You're below the cutoff for income tax so all they're paying is SS and Medicare, so it's not as big a bite.
And let me tell you, it's worth looking at how illegals deal with low wages. At $8 an hour they make enough to send a quarter to half their income home to Mexico. They do this by sharing living space, carpooling, living in extended families - in short by economizing the way that EVERYONE in America did 100 years ago - using skills we seem to have forgotten in the pampered luxury of the modern era.
It's a good thing we have immigrants, because they're the only people who still knows what it means to work hard and live on a budget. They deserve to inherit America.
Dave
67 - troll
...y ellos
68 - Baritone
Dave,
I wouldn't make too much of a deal of Mexicans sharing living space. I've been in a # of homes - 1 to 2 bedroom units housing anywhere from 8 to 15 people, perhaps more. It may be different in the southwestern tier states owing to the closer juxtaposition of them to Mexico, but here most of the situations I noted above weren't "extended families" so much as groups of people, mostly men, who are here simply to work. Here in Indy, we do have a thriving Hispanic community. Many have in fact pulled themselves up, just as many of the southeast asian immigrants did in the aftermath of the Vietnam War. But many, probably the majority, live, if not in abject poverty, are living precariously hand to mouth. Of course a number of them are illegals which adds to their plight.
Personally, I think it's great that this country is truly becoming a "melting pot." It is a step toward an ecumenism of cultures, races and religions which eventually, if fully realized would minimize bigotry and hatred based on these factors. While we're still talking about imperfect human beings who are nothing if not adept at finding things to agrue about, such blending would be a definitive step forward.
B-tone
69 - moonraven
Yes, Nalle they DO deserve to inherit the US.
And then we Native Americans will deal with them--or brothers--in our own way.
70 - bliffle
I've seen those conditions, too, and they've become more common in CA in recent years. And they seem to be more permanent, also. I think mostly because conditions in Mexico have gotten worse over the past many years. Everyone of these people that I have met would rather go home, and in fact many of them DO go home to recharge themselves and to remember what they are struggling for, their families and communities. It's amazing that a person would have the courage and will to go back to their village and once again face the danger and difficulty of sneaking back across the border.
They DO contribute directly to their communities, too, as well as their families. There is a government Matching Funds program in Mexico where someone who contributes money to a community civic project will be matched by both the Feds and the District gov, so their money is multiplied by 3, There a few hundred $million raised each year this way.