If the allies fought under the same constraints imposed upon Israel, Hitler would have become King of the World.
Can you imagine the Allied Forces trying to fight Hitler's armies under today's rules?…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
If the allies fought under the same constraints imposed upon Israel, Hitler would have become King of the World.
Can you imagine the Allied Forces trying to fight Hitler's armies under today's rules?…
Article comments
76 - Clavos
Superficial comparisons between two wars serve little purpose.
PETI, I disagree. We're talking about war here, not diplomacy or geopolitics. If we have made serious mistakes in the conduct and tactics employed in a previous war, as we did in Vietnam, we damn well should learn the lesson and avoid repeating the same mistakes, in order to save our own troops' lives.
Somebody (I think you) said earlier that all the wars the US has fought since WWII were "limited" wars. Whatever that means, one thing is true about all of them--we LOST them, and a LOT of Americans died for no discernible gain. As far as I'm concerned, right there's your deep underlying, recurring, pattern(s) we can learn from.
And I still think that if we are not prepared to enter into war with a clear cut goal of victory, whatever that takes; we should not go to war, period.
77 - pleasexcusetheinteruption12
Well I agree, your connection is a "deep underlying, recurring, pattern."
The superficial comparisons I objected to were
1. Israel should be held to the same standard the Allies were held to in WW2- any amount of collateral damage is acceptable, nuclear warfare is acceptable, ground invasion appropriate etc. A higher standard is unfair. (The implication of the article itself- I pointed out the cicumstances are different now and so should Israel's conduct).
2. A spark like attacking Hezbollah could start a world war, like the assassination in WW1. (Dean made this comment- I pointed out circumstances are diff than WWI and escalation in the shorterm is less likely.)
Im not saying we shouldnt learn from our mistakes, Im saying you cant just point to a minute similarity between two situations and say "we should/shouldnt do what we did the first time because the situations are sort of similar." You need a pattern. Like the pattern about these small, uncommitted wars. And you need more than a superficial similarity.
You cant just say dropping a nuclear bomb worked on Japan the first time, it will work against Hezbollah. I think we can both agree dropping a nuke on Hezbollah is a bad idea if for no other reason than its close proximaty to Israel.
That doesnt mean I dont agree with your final statement about comital to a war. I do agree.
78 - Clavos
PETI, I think that actually we agree more than we disagree.
A nuke on Hezbollah would be very stupid, indeed. And for lots more reasons besides its proximity to Israel.
And I don't disagree that "superficial" comparisons serve no purpose. I get very pissed off when we send troops into harm's way with only a half-baked idea of where we're headed.
Been there, done that. Didn't like it.
79 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Mark,
For a guy living in America, you did a great job. ;o)) If only our own government cared to defend us the way you have.
Yeah, I'm back and looking out of the window of the hills of Binyamin, a little northeast of Jerusalem. It's too much trouble to change my moniker. Besides, I'm the same troublemaker who got off-line a week or two ago with a lot more fresh air to breathe.
And I'll tell you all this much. We have nothing to apologize for attacking Lebanon. Our air force should have reduced Damascus to a rubble by now and nuked Teheran.
But nuking Teheran is not in the cards, I'm afraid, and our cowardly government is making plans to kick thousands of us out of our homes in Judea and Samaria. They are practically begging a foreign power to come in to Lebanon amnd very possibly Israel afterwards.
If you go to my article posted a day or two ago, you'll see that the bombing has not accomplished much. HizbAllah is evidently being resupplied. According to Arutz Sheva, where you will get a lot more truth than from the liars at the AP, NYT, CNN or BBC, you'll find out that over 150 missiles have been launched at this country today, and Beit Shean has been hit.
Kfar Sava and Tel Aviv will be next - possibly even Jerusalem. If they get hit with missiles, will the idiots in Tel Aviv learn? Probably not.
80 - troll
*Our air force should have reduced Damascus to a rubble by now and nuked Teheran.*
Ruvy - would you say that your radical views concerning the liberal use of force including Israel's nuclear weapons are shared by most in your new community - ?
troll
81 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
My views are not radical - they are just plain common sense. Though I do believe in cutting to the root of the problem - in that sense, they are radical. But, truth be told, I do not know what my neighbors' views are so far as the force required or needed. Their opinions will be tempered by having served in the military here. Their opinions will also be tempered by the fact that they know the nature of the government here and have similar opinions about it as I do.
They probably do not see the opportunities for peace and reconciliation that I do (I shouldn't make assumptions), but those visions must be put on hold - momentarily.
82 - Victor Lana
I imagine that the title of this post should win some kind of award for its rather unique nature.
83 - Martin Lav
Fuck you I need to be more specific:
Martin, think about what you're asking? You've got Iran, Syria, Hamas, Fatah, and Hezbollah all dedicated to the complete destruction of the country. How do you respond with peace to missiles, to suicide bombers, to Hezbollah troops using tunnels to attack Israel?
How does the nation of Israel survive in such an approach? You need to be a lot more specific about fighting aggression with peace.
the best way to win is not to play. I think Israel should refuse to play. Refuse to respond. Fight aggression with peace. I know it sounds absurd to you all, but what's worked with meeting force with force X 10 ?
Israel needs to stand up in peace and not sink to the levels of those who would destroy them.
84 - jack e. jett
peace
jj
85 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Martin,
Refusing to fight is essentially what you recommend. It is not an option for a man who is being attacked and intends to live, or for a people who intend to live. And we intend to live. We've been crucified long enough, and we will not be crucified anymore.
There is one way to refuse to fight and succeed in eliminating the dangers to this nation. That is to turn Damascus, Riyadh and Teheran into pits destroyed by nuclear bombs - Israeli nuclear bombs. After that, fighting would not be necessary.
Is that what you recommend, Martin?
86 - pleasexcusetheinteruption12
Yes all our problems will be over once we nuke Damascus and Tehran. And while we're at it, why dont we enlist the U.S. government to nuke every other major islamic city from Lebanon to Indonesia.
A straightforward approach for a straightforward situation. Sounds good to me.
87 - Martin Lav
The moral thing to do would be to nuke yourself and save all the other innocent lives instead.
Wouldn't that actually be more logical?
88 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"The moral thing to do would be to nuke yourself and save all the other innocent lives instead.
Wouldn't that actually be more logical?"
I don't see where suicide would be following the laws of G-d. But I can see where a Jew hater would have no problems recommending suicide to a Jew. That is very logical.
At least we know who and what you are, pal.
89 - Martin Lav
Groovy Ruvy,
You have me way wrong here.....I'm definitely NOT a Jew hater! I'm a war hater and I just don't think it's something that can be won. It can't even be contained as far as history would indicate. I vote for Peace.
In regards to my comment, it was pure sarcasm in that it is as assinine to suggest nuking yourself as it is to nuking all those that you make your enemy. Are there no humans involved in this?
90 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Martin, then think about what you are writing!
The lady drinking her coffee on her mirpeset who got killed by a Katyusha missile didn't get to vote for peace. The guy I met at the reading of the Book of Lamentations tonight who fled the missile attacks on Ma'alot (he's here for the duration) didn't get a vote either. The Lebanese civilians who tried to flee a bombing warning by Israel (the side of the story that CNN and the BBC doesn't tell you) and were stopped by the HizbAllah didn't get to vote for peace either.
If you live where the missiles don't fly, you can afford to blather on about peace. I do not have that luxury.
No Israeli does.
91 - pleasexcusetheinteruption12
Hell if you really want your countrymen to stop dieing, meet the terms of Hezbollah.
92 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
HizbAllah's "terms" are that we die, PETI. My vote, in that case, is that they should die instead.
I and my country intend to live.
93 - Martin Lav
I know it's easy for me to say, but I don't know anything else that's working.....
Can't lose if you don't fight and they may stop.
94 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Martin,
If we don't fight, we die. Those are facts of life - and death. In order to live, we must fight.
95 - Martin Lav
Contrary action?
Or is that opposite of that?
Either way, you kill, they kill, you kill, they kill.....until one is gone? Or this is infinity?
96 - pleasexcusetheinteruption12
Hezbollah's terms are not the immediate death of you all. That should be quite obvious considering Hezbollah has existed for years before the kidnapping and if their goal was you all drop dead right now, what have they been doing for the last few years? Hezbollah wants Israeli prisoners released, those are its terms, not that you all drop dead this instant.
The only people you cannot negotiate with in this world are those without reason. In a sense, reason is a weaknes. If there is no reason, there is nothing to reason with. Hezbollah is not just attacking willy-nilly for fun. Take away their reason, their provocation, you take away their will to fight.
Take a hostage negotiator for example. The only people a hostage negotiator cannot negotiate with are the mentally impaired (ie those hearing voices telling them to kill etc.) Unless you think all practioners of Islam are psychologically handicap, then negotiation is possible.
97 - Dean
Conclusion -- those who refuse to negotiate are either mentally impaired or driven to seek revenge.
98 - Mark Schannon
Martin, you've done nothing but spill bile, insults, and rhetoric. When you're ready to back up your points with substance rather than attacks, I'll pay attention. Meet Hezbollah's demands? Do you even know what they are? Why would they attack Israel since Israel withdrew from Lebanon.
PETI, you've got my argument reversed. I said that if the allies had been held to the same standards you'd hold Israel to, Hitler would have won the war. Hell, it'd be a lot easier if Israel had any allies, but if I were in Israel, I'd be mighty nervous thinking the U.S. was an ally. After all, look at how well we've supported other friends.
And I made no mention of atomic bombs...for fear of igniting another controversy, I think the dopping of the two bombs was one of the worst war crimes in history. They were unnecessary.
The ONLY reason Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the rest of the trash haven't destroyed Israel is that they don't have the military ability. Anyone who thinks that they have limited strategic goals short of the destruction of Israel is living in a dream world.
I think it was Suss who finally got me to say "no" to using nukes. And Dave N. is right that you can't fight these kinds of cowards who hide behind innocent women and children with traditional methods, but if Israel has tried counter-insurgency, it sure hasn't worked.
Oh, and jack e jett, whatever that means, if your comment was meant to be substantive, I missed it. It's comments such as yours that make it so hard for Jews to distinguish between anti-Israel and anti-Semitism. Thanks.
Finally, Ruvy, thanks for the compliment! I was talking to the bride about moving to Israel and taking up arms, but, when she stopped laughing, she suggested that balding, fat, 58 year olds were probably not needed in the Israeli army.
Anyway, boys and girls, I think we've once again demonstrated that a firmly-held conclusion cannot be overcome by reason, anger, faith, pleading, or bribery. And that includes my own. So, I'm signing off this thread. To those with whom I have had good discussions and actually reached some level of understanding--thanks. To those who just spout off rhetoric...well, we human beings are a sorry lot.
In Jameson Veritas
99 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Mark,
Are you actually older than me? I never would have known it to read your writing. Listen kid, if you can grab early retirement and a reduced
Social Security pension, take your bride and get the hell out of the States.
You'd be suprised how much mileage you can get out of $1,000 a month here.
I'm not talking about religion or patriotism or philosophy here, I'm talking about saving your (and your lovely wife's) butt. Ironic as it sounds, this war zone is safer than the States, and when the bubble bursts there, it will be a lot safer - particularly for a nice Jewish boy like you who, confused as he might be, is proud of who and what he is. Check this bad boy out and see what I mean.
I'm a member of the police auxiliary - complete with uniform, weapon, and power to detain and arrest while on duty. And while I'm a year or three younger than you, I'm not in such great shape that the IDF would want me to fight either.
Coming here involves giving up a few creature comforts - cars are terrible expensive to feed here, for example, but there is a very good transport system around here in the cities and pretty good if you live in the sticks like I do. But medical insurance is dirt cheap compared to the States. And there is plenty of beer, cheese and toilet paper, so your economic cycle can be complete. Not only that, but you can even get some Jameson's...
Man, I'm hungry as all hell from fasting - just another five hours to go.
If you seriously want to volunteer here, there is a Sar El program where you can come over and help the IDF as a volunteer in a safe place. They will not want you fighting either. You can put together medical kits or some such other task as they assign you, and pick up Hebrew along the way:
Like "Yesh bar ba'basís?" (Is there a bar on the base?) If you find one, then after a couple of drinks, the next bit of Hebrew you'll learn is "Éifo hasherutím"?!!" (where is the bathroom?!!!) I'm not promising Jameson's on an army base. You might have to settle for Arak or "botz" (the Hebrew nickname for Turkish coffee - botz means mud). If you're good at learning languages, you'll eventually get to the point here you can say "Ivrít shelí mugbélet" (my Hebrew is limited) - a term I use often.
100 - SFC SKI
PETI, you answered your own question with this,"The only people you cannot negotiate with in this world are those without reason."
If you are so mistaken as to think that Hezbollah's only goal is to get some prisoners released, you need to do a bit more research. It is true that Hezbollah misread how Israel might react to Hizbollah's latest kidnappings and killings, but Hizbollah has long stood by their stated goal as the elimination of an Israeli presence in what they consider their homeland.
101 - Dean
“Hizbollah has long stood by their stated goal as the elimination of an Israeli presence in what they consider their homeland”
And Zionists have long stood by their stated goal as the expansion of Israel from the Jordan to the Mediterranean.
Does this mean that no middle ground can be negotiated and enforced under international law?
Is the threat of never-ending war the only answer?
Most people on both sides of this issue don’t want to continue this never-ending war.
When will the Americans who fund this madness get tired of it?
102 - Dmitrim
"Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, the U.N., the cowardly governments of Europe, and the Arab thugs-of-state who will do anything to prevent democracy from taking hold in the Middle East."
Yeah, include EVERYONE except the United States. An article I'd agree with - too bad you showed your one-sided hand so quick.
103 - Mark Schannon
I said I was done with this thread, but I'll aways make an exception for Ruvy.
We've been trying to retire for a year or so, but the housing market in the states has gone south for the winter, summer, spring and fall...and we need the equity out of our house. So...I'm kind of in the market for a job (I may have stumbled into one today, which would be weirdest job search I've ever had.)
But over the next year-three, we're going to be retiring somewhere. I think it'd probably be a good idea to visit Israel first...when we think of retiring overseas, France kind of comes first.
But I'd love to meet you and drink Turkish mud and have deep conversations about things profound and trivial.
God willing. (Ha! Bet you never thought I'd say that, LOL.)
In Jameson Veritas
104 - Mark Schannon
Dmitrim, Oh well, so much for being "done" with this thread. The weird thing you have to undersand about Americans is that we're deranged but serious about spreading democracy, as if that were the cure-all for the world's ills.
I don't doubt for a second that Bush & his idiotic cronies believe in the spread of democracy. The fact that it requires a stable social and economic fabric as well as a lack of hundreds of years of tribal warfare seems to have escaped them. How they could be so stupid, I can't expain, but if you want to understand Americans, you have to understand that we're delusionally committed to the spread of this weird thing called democracy.
In Jameson Veritas
105 - troll
red neck noise...
if ya wanna understand Americans then ya havta understand that we're delusional about spreading American hegemony - using whatever propaganda techniques are required to convince ourselves that we are justified in all that we do
troll
106 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Sorry, Mark,
I have to agree with Troll here. That is not said with contempt or hatred, but with sadness. I was once an American, and I was once even proud to be one.
Then, as a teenager, I began to understand that the American government was wasting the lives of kids a little older than me in Vietnam - they were not fighting to win! In war, either you fight to win, or you lose. The US ued its soldiers to suppress democrazcy in the Doiminican Republic in the same year. I stopped being proud of being an American in 1965.
107 - Mark Schannon
Troll & Ruvy, I think it's more complex than that...always a cheap out, I know. America's a bizarre collection of idealists, bullies, know-it-alls, and compassionate people...sometimes existing in the same body at the same time.
Part of the problem is our youth as a nation. We became a world power so quickly and suddenly, we had and have no idea what to do with it. We're like teenagers given too much power.
That doesn't excuse the horrible things we've done, but to me it helps explain it.
In Jameson Veritas
108 - Clavos
Thank you, Ruvy, for this:
I began to understand that the American government was wasting the lives of kids a little older than me in Vietnam - they were not fighting to win! In war, either you fight to win, or you lose.
I have made the same point in several other threads in the past few weeks...
109 - troll
yup - we lost that one and killed a million or so Vietnamese in the process...now that's one long wall
and shit - we weren't even trying
American dogs of war are some bad ass puppies - best to keep them caged...but how can we spread freedom and democracy if we do that - ?
troll
110 - Dean
Mark says:
"We're like teenagers given too much power."
Can't agree.
Kids don't pull the kind of shit that's been going on in this country for too long.
We're more like a bunch of drunks given guns and ammunition.
111 - John Spivey
Our ideas of spreading democracy are closely tied to Christian missionaryism. You get so busy trying to save people that it becomes a convenient excuse to not look very closely at yourself. It becomes more about telling and forcing than showing, more about talking the talk rather than walking the walk. The world would be far better off if we simply lived up to our ideals and then others might be attracted to that way of life. As it is, it is still the same old story of money, power, and greed, but with a different rhetoric. We need to be inspirational, "full of the spirit.' Rhetoric is hollow, force is hollow. Let's really walk the walk and see what happens.
112 - Mark Schannon
Dean, I wish I could disagree...maybe I was just letting a naive streak show. But John's hit the nail on the head--we need to start walking our talk--showing not telling. And listening.
Whatever, the world's a mess & I, for one, disclaim all responsibility for anything.
In Jameson Veritas