It's Ranting Dictators Week at the United Nations. First Ahmadinejad preaches the gospel of peace and now it's Hugo Chavez on UN reform. Yay!
Freshly stoked by his appearance at Castro's recent frat party for all the coolest dictators and totalitarian loons - also known as the Non-Aligned Movement - Hugo Chavez appeared at the UN this week as the highlight of their annual ranting dictators week.…
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— go to most recent comments76 - JustOneMan
"Bush coup d'etat"
That summed it all up...
So rather than address the issue that Mexico is a poverty factory with no one caring to lift their citizens out of poverty you blame Bush....
Gee by your embellished resume I thought you would have included your aids and cancer research...
Please stop the nonsense...you sound like some little rich girl trying to piss off her parents...
77 - JustOneMan
Thanks Dave!
78 - JustOneMan
Martha Ray --
Labor Department data shows the U.S. Gini Coefficient is rising. If the current trend continues, then the American income gap will resemble that of Mexico by year 2043
Thanks to "your" people entering this country illegally we are doomed...Ill blame Bush for not taking military action ie guns and tanks - to keep the invaders from the south from destroying my childrens future...
I fear its to late because not only do they cross the borders in droves the have fertiliity rates equal to cochroaches and mice...
Thanks to you and your ilk we are doomed!
79 - Jose
As a Venezuelan Citizen living in the United States, I am impressed with all the comments supporting Hugo Chavez speech at UN. Let me tell you that, I feel very embarrassed and every moment, I think and ask myself, How? and Why? the Venezuelans, and the country has to have a president like him. All my family is in Venezuela and even though I am here, I know what is happening in my country being ruled by this person. That the reason, when I see comments like that, it convincing me about how the American people doesn’t valuate the great country where there are living, independently of the president o whatever the person who is on charge, this is a great country and that is the reason every day you see more immigrants and there are a big jealousy about the United States. A poor people in my country is no the same as a poor people here in USA. Venezuelan poor people doesn’t have running water, electricity, direct gas, house, car; absolutely anything, and in Venezuela doesn’t exist so many non-profit organizations that could help them like there are here in USA. That is why I criticize Chavez, Why a president is more interesting in having a problem with USA who he calls the imperialism and be a friend of those governments (non democratic) instead of been advocate in solve the Country main problems, specially services (electricity, gas water), housing, In Venezuela the electricity fails every moment, if you are going to take a shower and there is no water, and the roads and highways are full of holes like the moon killing so many people in car accidents, also the high degree of insecurity where the people have to live enclosed in their houses because they don’t know in what moment somebody is going to assault them and robe their belongings. This is the country that Mister Chavez who is the president doesn’t see and the Americans and all the people who support him don’t know because they never have been or lived in it.
80 - JustOneMan
Gee Martha Ray must have left -- her servants have just come pool side with some Margaritas and nachos!
81 - Michael J. West
Marthe and Dave,
First, Marthe, while I would generally say that something must be wrong if I agree with JustOneMan about something, exaggerations like "Bush coup d'etat" aren't going to clear up people's impression that you are a propagandist.
That said, ten minutes on Google demonstrated that the second most circulated newspaper in Venezuela (El Nacional) is opposed to Chavez. If he's shut down others, those shutdowns wouldn't be terribly effective in comparison.
However, research in the other areas is not promising for Chavez. Certainly looks like only members and allies of Chavez and his party were permitted on the Constituent Assembly. And that loyalism was apparently a big criterion for appointment to the Supreme Tribunal of Justice....
And I can't find any information about "where Human Rights Watch is coming from" that would make me question their veracity. Care to shed some light?
82 - JustOneMan
Jose...I wish the best for your family...thank you. You are a true friend of the American people...
Dave a google search of Martha Ray supports your hunch she is a blatant Marxist propagandist...
"viva la Regan"
83 - Nancy
JOM is not a "cute joke"; he's a foul-mouthed, gutter-minded, puerile jerk, and this is the last response I intend to make either in acknowledgement of or to him. He's not worth my time & effort, even to reprove.
84 - JustOneMan
Now now Nancyyyyyyyy!
85 - Michael J. West
Oh, I think he's ADORABLE! Oh, he just makes me smile and giggle with the things he says. I just wanna pinch those JustOneCheeks...
86 - marthe raymond
I agree, Nancy. He's a troll to be ingnored.
Michael, election fraud is a form of coup d'etat--whether it's in the US or in Mexico, in that it is seizing power by illegitimate means.
The delegates to the Constituent Assembly in Venezuela in 1999 were ELECTED the process, and that the president campaigned for his candidates--not that he appointed them.
Of course we know that all presidents in the US campaign actively for their party's candidates--and they appoint the Supreme Court justices, as well.
Let's keep this clean. If you are going to debate--provide information and supporting data, don't just accuse me of propagandizing (not that I do not have a perfect right to do so, the same as everyone else who has posted).
You might start YOUR analysis of Human Rights Watch here.
This is the first link in a Yahoo search that raises the question of their funding. I think it is very important to have transparent funding for NGOs, as many are "wolves in sheeps' clothing".
Jose, If all your family is in Venezuela, may I ask why you are in the US? I am also curious as to where you learned English. The reason I ask, is because many Venezuelans in the US are folks from families of privilege who form part of the Miama Mafia and who have funded paramilitaries attempting to overthrow the democratically-elected government of Venezuela. Apparently you did not read my comment where I mentioned several visits to Venezuela....I am sorry to hear that the potholes in the streets upset you so much. They open like troughs here in Mexico during the rainy season as well, and although they are irritating, they are much less so than human rights abuses, rampant poverty, racism, etc. Potholes are part of living in the Third World, and although I have lost several tires to them, they are a small price to pay.
87 - Dave Nalle
I see nationalization of resources as a positive step here in Latin America--in Mexico Lazaro Cardenas nationalized the petroleum resources in 1938.
Then you've confirmed my suspicions that you're a marxist stooge.
In Venezuela Chavez did not create the national petroleum company PDVSA--but he has forced other countries' petroleum companies to cooperate in joint ventures with it. And to pay the hundreds of millions of dollars in back taxes and royalties that they owed. Since they are still operating in Venezuela, they must view the operation as being in their interest.
Prior to the 1990s Venezuela could hardly operate its oil fields. They then brought in 33 outside companies which operated in concert with the government and made enormous infrastructure investments to make the oil fields productive and profitable. Chavez is now in the process of seizing the assets these companies created at their expense and returning the entire system to state control. Putting aside the fact that this amounts to theft and is likely to result in a return to massive waste, fraud and corruption, it could also lead to a backlash against Venezuela from the major oil companies who still control distribution and refining of the oil.
Unused agricultural land may be expropriated (not nationalized) by the state. That's not a novelty--in the US the state may expropriate any land under what is called "emminent domain".
And we're fighting that abuse of government tooth and nail here in the US right now. Property ownership is one of the most basic and fundamental human rights. Any government which voilates it is criminal, including the US government. And BTW, sugar cane plantations are not 'unused land'. They're land that people own and make a living off of.
All opposition newspapers are alive and operating in Venezuela. None have been closed. If you have info to the contrary, post it here.
Their doors have not been closed, but their mouths have. Are you familiar with the new "Laws of Social Responsibility" which make it a criminal act to publish criticism of the government?
The Supreme Court has not been subverted
Actually, the ENTIRE court system has been subverted, as has the electoral system. Huge numbers of opposition aligned judges have been fired and the Supreme Court and the rest of the courts have been stuffed with Chavez toadies. What's more, the rule of law has been completely suspended and Chavez is now ruling by direct presidential edict.
--unlike in the US. "Overriding the rule of law with government fiat" is a phrase which makes absolutely no sense, linguistically or otherwise.
Then I suggest you study language a bit more. The meaning should be obvious to most people.
Are you perhaps not a native English speaker, and would like to repost that phrase in your first language?
Odd, I was going to ask you the same thing. Perhaps you've been in Mexico too long or read too many Noam Chomsky books and have lost a basic understanding of English vocabulary.
What do you call it when the government executive is empowered to issue orders with the force of law without going through a legislative process? Oh, I know - you call it happy pseudomarxist dictatoriship, the only kind of good government.
There is nothing in the Venezuelan Constitution that was created in 1999 that indicates an increase in presidential powers (perhaps you are thinking about passed laws, not the Constitution?), jailing political opponents or inciting revolution in neighboring countries. Do you have a copy of the Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela? I do.
Actually, I do have a copy somewhere around here. It's as long as the Patriot Act, which is a pretty bad sign, and it's not a very enjoyable read.
As for increasing presidential power, that part is pretty damned obvious. I guess you haven't read your copy. Did it not increase the presidential term from 5 to 6 years and allow the president to serve 2 terms instead of one? And Chavez is now working to extend that for more - presumably unlimited - terms. Oh, and it also gave the president the power to disband the national legislature. Methinks that's a bit of increase in power.
These well-documented facts--show us the doumentation. Don't just tell us that we should believe that The Usual Suspects have been rounded up and are guility.
I've already pointed to documentation, and you said you have a copy of the constitution, so you could start by reading that. As for the usual suspects, some have been rounded up, but others have been shot, so no one is rounding them up ever again.
As for Human Rights Watch--do a little research about where they are coming from. It's always disappointing to find out that funding for such groups at HRW and Reporters without Borders is not free of influence.
True, they are far too left-leaning and critical of the US. Which makes it doubly significant when they take a country like Venezuela to task since they are politically inclined to be sympathetic to it.
Interesting that you ignore the gross violations of voting rights in Venezuela. Basically no election since 1999 has been fair. The CNE which oversees elections has been taken over entirely by Chavez supporters and they determine how the elections come out. The classic example being the recall election where over half the anti-Chavez votes were disqualified on no real grounds so that he wasn't removed from office.
I know that every floweing of marxism makes your heart warm, but the abuses and oppression which come with it are inexcusable to those of us who actually believe in human rights and individual liberty and prefer not to support dictatorship just because it mouths the right ideological slogans.
BTW Marthe, how do you know I don't speak or read Spanish? I live in Texas, and it sure would be a useful language to know living here...
Dave
88 - marthe raymond
Dave,
As usual, you provide zero documentation for your statements.
Chavez has seized no petroleum company assets; show me the documentation for that statement.
As for opposition press, if you had ever BEEN in Venezuela you would know that the opposition media criticizes Chavez 24/7. And no one has been jailed for that. Show us the name of one jailed oposition journalist or publisher--and the source for that name.
Your statement "the Supreme Court and the rest of the courts have been stuffed with Chavez toadies. What's more, the rule of law has been completely suspended and Chavez is now ruling by direct presidential edict" had the wrong president's name in there: the name is BUSH.
Not only am I a native speaker of English, I have a doctorate in English from Univ. of Massachusetts and am a specialist in Foreign Language Teaching. For that reason I asked if you were not a native speaker. Your statement makes no sense in the English language.
You do not have a copy of the Venezuelan Constitution. And you could not read it if you did because:
You do not speak Spanish.
And as for calling Lazaro Cardenas and me marxist stooges--you had better not open your mouth this side of the border with comments like that about Cardenas. He may not be alive, but there are millions who are. He is considered to be a hero in Mexico--right up there with Hidalgo, Morelos, Villa and Zapata.
And I am very much alive and am certainly not a "stooge" of any idealogy. Show us some proof.
And let's see it in Spanish.
89 - Mike Stamper
I agree with everything Hugo Chavez said at the UN the other day, except one thing. Bush is not the Devil. According to the Bible, "The Devil Hath Power to Assume a Pleasing Shape". There is nothing pleasing about George W. Bush.
90 - troll
marthe - you're pissing into the wind here...defamation and disinformation have been US SOP for dealing with all left leaning elected governments in central and south America since the 50s
don't look for truth or reason here
91 - SHAR
Chavez said Bush is the Devil Incarnate;
Hugo might be "crazy" -- but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
===========
And just for the record:
This week's appearances from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad & Chavez DID SHOW that they BOTH COME ACROSS AS MORE INTELLIGENT & MORE ARTICULATE than ANYONE in the Bush administration.
Bush is an International Embarrassment.
92 - SHARK
Sorry, #91 shoulda said by "SHARK" -- I'm having trouble with my browser/modem hookup via string + tin can.
=============
Oh, and did I mention that Bush is Satan?
=============
PS: To Marthe -
Heckuva job doggin' our resident GOP Propagandist.
And don't worry: DaveNalle calls everyone a "socialist leftist" -- he's one of those funny, all-too-common Americans who is scared shitless because HE HAS SO MUCH TO LOSE.
93 - Clavos
Marthe,
I was born (of American parents) and raised in México. Como adulto, he trabajado mas de tres décadas en empresas mexicanas, y por supuesto, hablo español.
I find it interesting that you mention Cardenas' expropriation of the British and American oil companies as being a "positive step", but fail to mention that Pemex, the state oil company, is easily the most corrupt arm of one of the most corrupt governments in the Americas, and has been since shortly after the expropriation.
You picked a poor example, corazón.
94 - Clavos
he's one of those funny, all-too-common Americans who is scared shitless because HE HAS SO MUCH TO LOSE.
What better reason could there be to to be opposed to socialism?
95 - Franco
Marthe Raymond
It is easy to see your passion for socialism. Volunteering your time to help lessor-developed communities in the third world is a very good thing. All of us who support capitalism can take a lesson from that. For it is in our hearts that we can overcome so many of our differences.
I am a US Citizen living working in Chile. I am not a socialist Marthe, I am a capitalist. I too live in a small town here in Chile, however I do employ a maid and a gardener to help me keep up with those duties and they are both happy to have this employment. As for my small export company I have had to spend a lot of time and effort in finding and training employees that are willing to grow and learn new working standards and skills that the developed world maintains as a minimum. If I want my company to be able to compete in the developed world, then my employees need to operate at that standard.
The idea of an employee incentive plan in receiving better pay for learning and growing to understand and practice these minimum standards is not a concept that Chilean workers have ever really been offered by most all employers here so it is a concept they have the hardest time actualizing. I have finally established a small working crew that has the desire to learn new skills and reach the higher standards. They work as a team and achieve a standard of excellence that they would not have otherwise had the opportunity to realize. Not only am I proud of them, but they have found new pride in themselves.
As for those who choose not to grow and reach this higher standard, they have no place in my company. Now as harsh as they may sound, let me explain the main reason they choose not to grow. The socialist government of Chile offers such good benefits including government housing and full medical to low-income workers that they have grown so accustom to them they would not go out of that box. As for those who made the choose to grow, they are making income 2.7 times greater then state benefits even though they had to give up their government housing and medical support. They now can afort better and larger houseing for their families and are fully insured with medial benefits that offers a greater ranges of doctors and services then the state offered them.
I am not going to fault someone who has lived his whole life growing so accustom to the comforts of state handouts that have lost their spirit to grow and achieve more, some people want to be taken care of, but I can not praise that system. In contrast, the greater income being received and enjoyed by those willing to grow should not be held against them, and I do praises them for there choose to grow.
You see Marthe, I believe capitalism raises the human spirit of creativity and hope better then socialism does. I am not going to deny that capitalism has its problems, it does, and a lot of that has to do with the human heart or lack there of. But like capitalism, socialism too has problems and that also has to do with the human heart or lack of.
Your thinking that the US upper class keeps people in poverty is not sound. The US has the largest “middle-class” of any county in the world. It is this middle class that is the most innovative and creative forces in socicty that has ever been know to man. Most people in poverty in the US are there because of choose just like those who don’t work for my company here in Chile. For the truly poor, widowed and orphaned in the US as well as the world, we need our hearts to lead us.
I wish you well in Mexico.
Franco
96 - Dave Nalle
As usual, you provide zero documentation for your statements.
I've already provided links to the HRW site. I can provide other sources if you like too.
Chavez has seized no petroleum company assets; show me the documentation for that statement.
Sure, no problem - courtesy of the BBC
As for opposition press, if you had ever BEEN in Venezuela you would know that the opposition media criticizes Chavez 24/7. And no one has been jailed for that. Show us the name of one jailed oposition journalist or publisher--and the source for that name.
Patricia Poleo, jailed for 6 months last year for writing critically about a government official. How about Ibeyise Pacheco who was jailed in March for criticizing the state military buildup. Or Marianela Salazar who was charged with slandering the VP of Venezuela? Or perhaps TV reporter Marta Colomina who was attacked and terrorized by Chavista thugs? Here's a link to the order sent to the Chavez government by the Inter-American Court on Human Rights.
You can keep up with the apologetics and excuses, but the facts are the facts.
Your statement "the Supreme Court and the rest of the courts have been stuffed with Chavez toadies. What's more, the rule of law has been completely suspended and Chavez is now ruling by direct presidential edict" had the wrong president's name in there: the name is BUSH.
So you have no actual ability to refute these facts - you can verify them at the HRW website, btw.
Not only am I a native speaker of English, I have a doctorate in English from Univ. of Massachusetts and am a specialist in Foreign Language Teaching. For that reason I asked if you were not a native speaker. Your statement makes no sense in the English language.
Odd, it makes sense to me, but maybe not understanding straightforward statements is something I need more than my lowly Masters in English to understand.
You do not have a copy of the Venezuelan Constitution. And you could not read it if you did because:
You do not speak Spanish.
Again, how do you know I don't speak Spanish? Do you assume this about all Americans? I'll admit Spanish isn't my best language. I can read it and understand it when spoken, but I can't speak it at a high level of competence. Russian, French, German, Latin Vulgate and Anglo-Saxon are a different story.
But the point is moot, because as someone else pointed out the Venezuelan constitution is widely available in English translation and I have in fact had a translated copy since I wrote another article on Chavez last year.
And as for calling Lazaro Cardenas and me marxist stooges--you had better not open your mouth this side of the border with comments like that about Cardenas. He may not be alive, but there are millions who are. He is considered to be a hero in Mexico--right up there with Hidalgo, Morelos, Villa and Zapata.
I don't believe I mentioned Cardenas anywhere here. Though his policies were certainly destructively socialist.
I do find it amazing how the marxist apologists come out of the woodwork when you mention Chavez. It's rather reminiscent of the paid bloggers the Chinese government sent to comment on another recent post on BC.
Dave
97 - Zippo
Hmm I wonder if anyone in Venezuela could even AFFORD to buy that stpid Chomsky book. Probably not thanks to Chavez' mismanagement of the nation's economy and it's oil fortune.
98 - Dave Nalle
marthe - you're pissing into the wind here...defamation and disinformation have been US SOP for dealing with all left leaning elected governments in central and south America since the 50s
don't look for truth or reason here
Troll, there are plenty of socialist governments which don't abuse the rights of their people and build up massive militaries to intimidate their neighbors. There's a difference between reasonable, democratic socialism and a marxist dictatorship. Chavez practices the latter while masquerading as the former.
Dave
99 - marthe raymond
This will be my final post on this thread, so it will not be necessary to reply.
As usual, Dave has presented zero docuemntation for any of his slanderous statements. That Venezuela's government TOOK BACK oil fields (BBC reference) indicates that those fields were THEIRS. They were not assets of any petroleum companies. Nice try, but completely bogus. And nice try saying you are putting documentation and then not doing so. Most of us can read, thank you.
Has anyone ever showed you the difference between apples and oranges?
I would be happy to look at documents in French, German, Latin or Old English that prove your statements. The point is: They do not exist--if you want to pontificate about Latin America, you have to be fluent in Spanish. That's the deal. Punto.
And yes, a doctorate does trump a master's. If it didn't, why would anyone get one?
Clavo, You missed the nail (yes, pun intended). Cardenas took back the petroleum fields that were being exploited by foreign companies. The fact that Cardenas was the last credible Mexican president is not HIS fault. He put the infrastructure in place for Mexico to manage its resources. The crooks that have sold out Mexico's patrimony (vendepatrias como Salinas and Fox) were not put in power by Cardenas. Guilt is not retroactive in this case, and logical thinking is clearly not your strong suit.
Franco, I do not believe I mentioned the word SOCIALISM anywhere in my posts--nor capitalism, for that matter. If I wanted to mention them, I am perfectly able to do so--and since I did NOT, it's logical to assume that idealogy is not the issue I have been addressing.
What I have been addressing--and which Chavez addressed in his UN speech and which he addresses every day--is the issue of moral behavior/social justice. Bombing the crap out of half the planet's people is WRONG. Starving more than half of the planet's people is WRONG. Slapping people in jail who have commmitted no crime is WRONG. In fact, everything that the US government has done since Bush took office through election fraud has been WRONG.
Anyone who can morally justify one single act or policy of the Bush government, have at it!
100 - Dave Nalle
This will be my final post on this thread, so it will not be necessary to reply.
Since you're mostly being deceptive and argumentative, I realized several posts ago that you were too closed-minded to waste time on, except that it would be irresponsible to let your lies stand uncontested for those others who are reading here.
As usual, Dave has presented zero docuemntation for any of his slanderous statements.
Really? Are you incapable of reading HTML links? Perhaps that's the problem. You click on the parts of the text in blue and it takes you to the source. I've provided multiple sources of documentation, including a link in my last post to legal documents pertaining to journalists jailed for political reasons in Venezuela.
As a rule, when you lie, you shouldn't lie about things which anyone can scroll up 3 posts and see are obviously there.
That Venezuela's government TOOK BACK oil fields (BBC reference) indicates that those fields were THEIRS. They were not assets of any petroleum companies. Nice try, but completely bogus. And nice try saying you are putting documentation and then not doing so. Most of us can read, thank you.
I provided the link to the BBC story. If you weren't so hideously biased you would realize that while the oil in the ground may belong to Venezuela - excep that seizing it violated long-term contracts with the oil companies involved - they also seized the infrastructure and hardware on the sites which was mostly owned by rental companies who have now sued Venezuela for $55 million for breach of contract and the return of their property. More suits are expected to follow.
I would be happy to look at documents in French, German, Latin or Old English that prove your statements. The point is: They do not exist--if you want to pontificate about Latin America, you have to be fluent in Spanish. That's the deal. Punto.
Bullshit. Almost every relevant document is available in English translation, and if it were not and it were important to have an exact translation I know plenty of people who could translate it for me. Remember, I live in Texas.
And yes, a doctorate does trump a master's. If it didn't, why would anyone get one?
Damned if I know, though my graduate degrees did let me teach college for 20 years, underpaid and overworked though I was. And I knew plenty of English doctoral candidates while I completed my MA and your arrogance and closed-mindedness is pretty typical. Not that things were all that much better in my department, but at least there the Marxists had learned to reason at least a little bit.
What I have been addressing--and which Chavez addressed in his UN speech and which he addresses every day--is the issue of moral behavior/social justice. Bombing the crap out of half the planet's people is WRONG. Starving more than half of the planet's people is WRONG. Slapping people in jail who have commmitted no crime is WRONG. In fact, everything that the US government has done since Bush took office through election fraud has been WRONG.
Only one of the things you mention can even vaguely be laid on Bush, and one of them applies to Chavez more than it does to the US. Lots of people are doing things wrong. It's farcical for the world's leading dictators to presume to lecture America on such issues.
Anyone who can morally justify one single act or policy of the Bush government, have at it!
There are lots of things Bush has done which are morally justifiable, like providing tax relief at home and massive foreign aid to Tsunami victims. But I don't see much point in defending Bush policies to someone who can't recognize a real dictatorship when she sees one.
Dave
101 - marthe raymond
I lied. That was my penultimate post.
This is my laugh of the day:
"There are lots of things Bush has done which are morally justifiable, like providing tax relief at home and massive foreign aid to Tsunami victims. But I don't see much point in defending Bush policies to someone who can't recognize a real dictatorship when she sees one."
Tax relief for the rich--and sticking it to the shrinking middle and expanding lower classes--really morally justifiable. The US aid to tsunami victims was mostly PRIVATE money rounded up by Bush Padre and Bill Clinton. And then there was that SUBLIME MORAL VICTORY: the evacuation and protection of New Orleans. You forgot that one.
Piss poor moral behavior/social justice record for almost 6 years in office, by anyone's standards.
Dictatorship? I am not the one living in a dictatorship and unwilling to recognize it.
And this really was my last word.
102 - Dave Nalle
Tax relief for the rich--and sticking it to the shrinking middle and expanding lower classes--really morally justifiable.
With your complete and willful denial of reality on Venezuela I should have expected this as well. If you bother to look beyond what the left propaganda is feeding you, you'd know that the middle class isn't shrinking and the lower class isn't expanding and the tax cuts, poorly designed though they were, didn't increase taxes for anyone and reduced taxes the most for the poor because they included an increase in the exemption which took more poor people completely off the tax rolls. It's a reminder that my work is never done that this sort of ignorance persists.
The US aid to tsunami victims was mostly PRIVATE money rounded up by Bush Padre and Bill Clinton.
Really? Maybe you should subscribe to a newspaper or something. They do ship them to Mexico. US Private aid to the Tsunami victims was $480 million. Government aid was $1.33 billion.
And then there was that SUBLIME MORAL VICTORY: the evacuation and protection of New Orleans. You forgot that one.
Did you ever actually live in the US? You seem not to be terribly familiar with the country and how it works. Initial response to any disaster, including evacuation is the responsibility of local authorities. This is indisputable fact. Mayor Nagin and Gov. Blanco ignored the evac plan for New Orleans. That was the root of most of the subsequent problems.
Piss poor moral behavior/social justice record for almost 6 years in office, by anyone's standards.
Only true if you have some sort of perverse vision of what morality and social justice are. Bush's administration has certainly stumbled plenty, but compared to Chavez and his deliberate subjugation of Venezuela Bush has been a saint.
Dave
103 - troll
Chavez remembers Arbinez - Allende - ... - the Sandinistas
is strengthening his position other than prudent - ?
la suya es una caja "de paranoia constantemente justificada"
104 - Dave Nalle
I'm not sure that being provocative is really strengthening his position. He ought to also keep in mind the countries in the region which have good, stable democracies and have been given nothing but support and friendship by the US.
Dave
105 - troll
(or should that be 'el suyo es un caso...etc' - ?)
which countries are those Dave - ?
106 - Dave Nalle
Mostly the ones Chavez is planning to invade and/or encourage socialist revolutions in.
But it seems like a lot of countries in the region have solved the kinds of problems they had a decade or two ago with socialist dictators. They aren't perfect, but Costa Rica, Bolivia, Uruguay, El Salvador, Argentin, Brazil, and Chile all seem to be more or less on the right track. Well, Bolivia slipped recently. Under Evo Morales they seem likely to head to the same dark place as Venezuela.
Dave
107 - Clavos
Marthe,
It is you, not I who missed.
You are so full of socialist rhetoric you conveniently ignore the fact that it was Cárdenas, who as a member of the PRM, (the party which evolved into the PRI) set the stage for the PRI to enjoy a monopoly on Mexican politics for more than 70 years by dividing the party into competing interest groups, thereby creating a one party monopoly called by Mario Vargas LLosa, "La dictadura perfecta."
As for the so-called "vendepatrias" you refer to:
Beginning with Miguel De La Madrid and going through Salinas and Fox, Mexico's middle class has become the fastest-growing in Latin America, the peso has been more stable than at any time in the last 30 years, foreign investment (and therefore jobs and tax revenues) are at all-time highs, and today, México is the wealthiest country in Latin America.
But, most significantly, the PRI's stranglehold on politics has finally been broken; with this summer's presidential election the most closely scrutinized in history and, despite AMLO's protestations to the contrary, the most honest election in 70 years.
Cárdenas' other contribution to the Republic, agrarian "reform", has resulted in a complete loss of individual property rights for the campesinos, which has kept them impoverished; resulting in, among other things, the mass migration to US and the out-of-control growth and impoverishment of the D.F. and other urban centers.
No, your Marxist viewpoint gives you a very unrealistic view of mi Patria. About as unrealistic (and blind) as the PRD's and AMLO's.
One more thing: in your original post, you list several Mexican heroes from history. Where's Benito Juárez, the greatest of them all?
108 - Clavos
Dave says,
Well, Bolivia slipped recently. Under Evo Morales they seem likely to head to the same dark place as Venezuela.
Count on it. Evo's mentor is Hugo.
109 - troll
*countries in the region which have good, stable democracies and have been given nothing but support and friendship by the US*
=
*Costa Rica, Bolivia, Uruguay, El Salvador, Argentin, Brazil, and Chile*
quoted for revisionist content
110 - marthe raymond
Ay, clavo, you have forced me to become a liar. But your ignorance or deliberate deceptiveness--not for me to say which--cannot go unpunished.
Chavo--er clavo, no sabes ni jota de México.
1. Since 1929, when Calles consolidates his power, Mexican presidents appointed their succesors (some even contend that Zedillo appointed Fox in 2000 and that this year Fox appointed Calderón--after first trying to appoint his wife and then Creel). Cárdenas took office in 1936. He appointed, in the interest of UNITY--not division--a conservative, Ávila Camacho, in 1940. He did not "set the stage" for the PRI monopoly. It already existed in 1929.
2. Did you Google Mario Vargas Llosa? Bet you have not read any of his books. He has swung waaaaay to the right in his old age--which is why he suits your idealogy, but when he made the "perfect dictatorship" comment, he was younger and left-leaning.
3. Miguel de la Madrid took office in 1982. His sexenio was a disaster: En diciembre de 1988, la moneda mexicana iba a devaluarse en total un 3.270% desde diciembre de 1982. That's 3 thousand, not 3!!!!!!! the way numbers are written in the Romance languages. Then came Salinas, who artificially sustained the pesos in order to bring about NAFTA and his illusion of becoming president of the World Bank. Zedillo let the peso float in his first month as president in 1995 and that led to The Error of December and the Tequila Effect. The peso went from 3.3 to the dollar to 11 point something during his sexenio, backing down to 9.50 when Fox took office. The peso is right around 11 to the dollar now. You do the arithmetic--what percentage has the peso lost since December 1995? ¡Vaya estabilidad!
4. Jobs? Fox promised 1,400,000 per year. The total in 6 years: 1,200,000--mostly without benefits.
5. Tax revenues? You've got to be kidding. The budget has been kept from collapsing the past several years by SUPPOSEDLY (there is no transparency regarding revenues here) injecting ALL of the windfall petroleum profits. Nobody knows--except that they did not go into Pemex infrastructure. Or anyplace else where they might be traced. We are talking 20 billion dollars in the past 2 years alone. In Venezuela, one may not like where the windfall profits have gone--but the process has been transparent. Here in Foxilandia, hah!
6. Richest country in Latin America?????By what measurement? In the past six years the average growth in Internal Brute Product in Mexico: 2%, by official figures. In Venezuela, by comparision--in 2004 it was almost 19%, in 2005 just under 10% and is running just under 10% for this year. Mexico's economy in NOT growing. Growth produced wealth.
7. Ah, agrarian reform--thanks for falling into the arms of someone who regularly gives presentations at universities in Latin America about this very topic. Someone who even lives in the pueblo natal de Emiliano Zapata--who started it in 1911. Cárdenas is not the president who destroyed the "campo" and sent all the campesinos to "El Norte". The president who imposed the reform of Article 27 of the Mexican Constitution: Carlos Salinas. Year: 1992. Migration currently running at just under 500,000 per year.
8. Benito Juárez--best president México has ever had. My only complaint--he did zip for his fellow indigenas.
9. This one is free: worst president México has ever had--and with some stiff competition there with Santa Ann and Company: Vicente Fox, who destroyed the fledgling democratic process and the hopes of the people of this country. And he's still in the presidential chair through November 30th!
Clavo, meet Martillo.
111 - Jerry
"Clavo meet Martillo"
What more appropriate or revealing comment could be expected as a last word from a Maxist?
112 - Clemmy Thudpucker
Is she going to beat Clavos in the head with that hammer?
113 - Jerry
No, I think she's just going to try and stick him where the sun don't shine!
114 - Clavos
Martita, you are pretty cocky for someone as out of touch with reality (y la história) as you are, niña.
this year Fox appointed Calderón
You and the whole world knows that's not true. I realize your candidate was AMLO, but the facts are that this was the most scrutinized election in Mexican history, and while it wasn't error-free, it WAS honest, and the people DID elect Calderón.
He did not "set the stage" for the PRI monopoly.
He most certainly did, by the way he structured it; eliminating the possibility of opposition parties being able to attract supporters in sufficient numbers to be effective.
The peso went from 3.3 to the dollar to 11 point something during his sexenio, backing down to 9.50 when Fox took office. The peso is right around 11 to the dollar now.
Totally correct. Now, compare that range (3.3--11) to the value of the peso to the dollar PRIOR to the 1982 devaluations and the years of de la Madrid's sexenio. Remember that he inherited a 100% annual rate of inflation, which by the end of his second year, he had reduced to 81%, while returning the Mexican GDP (PIB) back to the black (it was in the red when he took office).
Remember also that worldwide oil prices were collapsing during the beginning of his term, losing the country enormous amounts of revenue.
Given the mess he inherited, de la Madrid did exceptionally well, leaving Salinas a much healthier economy with which to work.
Your figures on job growth during Fox's term ignore the "informal" segment of the Mexican economy, which, according to the OECD (Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, of which México is a member) and the International Labour Organisation, accounts for 57% of non-farming jobs. It is true, however, that because of its nature, the informal sector does not contribute to the tax base.
The budget has been kept from collapsing the past several years by SUPPOSEDLY (there is no transparency regarding revenues here) injecting ALL of the windfall petroleum profits. Nobody knows--except that they did not go into Pemex infrastructure. Or anyplace else where they might be traced.
True. Corruption is the most serious problem in México. In fact, perhaps the most corrupt in the Americas. Nevertheless, the foreign companies, at least, ARE paying those taxes, and they ARE entering the economy, one way or another.
Richest country in Latin America?????By what measurement?
By the only measurement that makes sense:
The total size of the GDP, as opposed to the growth rate you cite. In 2005, the last year for which figures are available, the purchasing power (which includes the "informal" segment) of México GDP (PIB) was $1.07 Trillion USD.
In the same year, Venezuela's was $153.7 Billion USD. Both firgures are from the CIA World Fact Book.
Cárdenas is not the president who destroyed the "campo" and sent all the campesinos to "El Norte". The president who imposed the reform of Article 27 of the Mexican Constitution: Carlos Salinas. Year: 1992.
You must have slept through history class. It was Cárdenas who, in 1934, took the land from the large rich landowners and put it under the control of the PRI, forcing the campesinos into communal ejidos and virtual indentured servitude, because they could neither hold title to nor sell the land they worked.
Tú comentario sobre mi conocimiento de Mario Vargas Llosa no merece respuesta.
115 - marthe raymond
Clavo:
1. I did not have a candidate in Mexico's dirtiest election in history. As a US citizen, I do not violate Art. 33 of the Constitution by actively participating in Mexican politics. You have no proof that Calderón was elected. If you DO, you are light years more informed that his political party, and it behooves you to put it out there.
2. You did not read my previous post. You confused Cárdenas with Calles.
3. I stand by my comment on the devaluationof the peso. If you think that it's a healthy currency, keep your money in pesos--not in euros like I do.
4. As your own post indicates, the "informal" economy, which has mushroomed during the Fox sexenio, does not contribute to the tax base. The jobs in the sector of primarily street vendors (of Chinese goods) are not registered with the IMSS, and therefore are not counted as REAL jobs. And they are not. If you choose to sell pirate cds in Eje Central, that's your business, but most folks would jump at a REAL job--one with a salary, vales de dispenza, AFORE contributions, IMSS (health insurance), etc.
5. The World Bank, in its latest report, compared the purchasing power of Mexican people with that of Botswana. Your ideology should certainly allow you to accept their figures and analysis: unam.mx
6. I don't sleep through history classes--I give them. When universities start paying YOU to teach courses in the History of Mexico and to give presentations on the History of Agrarian Reform in Latin America, please let me know.
116 - Dave Nalle
Marthe is like a caricature of every marxist Latin American historian I had to deal with when I was in grad school and then later as 'colleagues' while I was teaching. All ego, all ideology, and not one original thought. Realities which don't fit the marxist model are dismissed or ignored and instead they spin elaborate fantasies of how ideology tells them the world must be, while ignoring how the world really is.
I particularly like how when I provide facts and links to counter every point she tried to make about Venezuela, she tries to dismiss me on a ridiculous pretext - like not speaking Spanish like a native - and just started ignoring me. An admission that she was dead wrong and ill-informed is probably too much to expect. I wonder how long it will be before she gets tired of being exposed by Clavos and starts ignoring him too.
This inability to defend her position when confronted with facts is exactly why so many of them have taken refuge in academia where students don't have the temeritty to challenge them and they can control tenure committees and they can arbitrarily get rid of anyone who doesn't toe the marxist line.
Dave
117 - Clavos
Calles was PNR (remember Plutarco Necesita Robar?). Cárdenas was PRM, and it was the PRM that set the structure of what was later to become the PRI.
I didn't say the peso was healthy--I said it was more stable in the last twenty years than in the years prior to that period.
The informal economy is a LOT more than vendors of pirate CDs. It includes most of the artisans and skilled tradesmen in the construction trade, pirate cabbies, and a multitude of youths selling their computer skills off the grid, among others. As I said earlier, it accounts for 57% of nonfarm jobs in the country today.
You've got to be kidding, martita. You cite La Jornada, a college newspaper at the largest hotbed of socialism/marxism in the country, the Autonomous University of Mexico as an authority?/.
And the article indicates that the figures are taken from a report based on a World Bank paper, but created by the Mexican Congress, which we both know is full of opposition members.
Nonetheless, the report does indicate that the World Bank ranks the Mexican economy as the tenth largest in the world: (El organismo financiero internacional manifiesta que el país tiene un ingreso nacional bruto de 704 mil 900 millones de dólares, que lo ubica como la décima economía más grande del mundo.
The fact that you are a teacher does hurt your credibility, but it explains your socialist/marxist viewpoint, as does your disgust with the outcome of July's election. Pero bueno, ni modo.
118 - Jerry
Dave, you hit the nail on the head (haven't we heard that somewhere?) Marthe and other likeminded Marxists don't like reality.
She can easily dismiss you or I, but what can she say to Jose or Luis, both former Venezuelan citizens who have voiced their disgust with Hugo on this thread and the one by Brad Schader?
What can she say to the Cubans in Florida who despise Castro. She probably thinks they are just unlearned peasants who have fallen under the spell of imperialism.
She is a prime example of the true elitist Marxist.
119 - JustOneMan
Martha Ray...please stop [Personal attack deleted]
120 - steve
Noam Chomsky and Hugo Chavez both need to disappear. it disgusts me that that commie lives and works only 90 miles from me in Boston!
121 - McNab
Dave, do yourself a great big favor stop whining. You've been humilated but you don't have to wallow in it.
122 - Lumpy
McNut you must be reading a different version of this thread from the rest of us. maybe it's the special Pravda translation.
123 - marthe raymond
Nothing but personal insults
and LOTS of whining
from you guys.
No information,
but ideological bluster.
Is this why so many believe
the world will end
not with a bang,
but a whimper?
124 - Jerry
What do you want, an historical dissertation about the failures of Soviet and Cuban communism?
Or a chronological listing of the atrocities committed by Stalin or Mao Tse-tung?
Hey, I'm open to honest debate about progressive world views; just not too fond of suicide!
And BTW, do you really think it's cool to see the hugs and kisses between Ahmadinejad and Hugo?
Yeah, you Marxists really have America's best interests at heart.
125 - marthe raymond
Why would I have the slightest interest in the Soviet Union, Stalin or Mao? I didn't live in the countries they controlled. And since I am not a marxist, anyway, there is no motivation for even an academic interest.
I do have an academic interest in Cuba because there they did carry out a relatively successful agrarian reform, and that is something--among other subjects--in which I specialize.
Suicide is, according to the theme from the film M*A*S*H, painless--can't say it attracts me, though. But you seem to have considered it--and perhaps it appeals to you more than a firing squad does.
I am not homophobic, so hugs between men are just fine with me. In Latin America they are standard operating procedure.
I definitely do NOT have the interests of the US government at heart. Why should I, when I chose not to live there 15 years ago? Why should anyone who is not living in the US prioritize its interests? Or that of its government? Who cares?
Especially not a Native American like myself.