It's Ranting Dictators Week at the United Nations. First Ahmadinejad preaches the gospel of peace and now it's Hugo Chavez on UN reform. Yay!
Freshly stoked by his appearance at Castro's recent frat party for all the coolest dictators and totalitarian loons - also known as the Non-Aligned Movement - Hugo Chavez appeared at the UN this week as the highlight of their annual ranting dictators week.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments526 - nugget
you people are morons and make me remember why I love my life. thank you.
527 - Clavos
No, not all, Franco.
Usually, it's the ones where the original article is about a controversial subject; and, of course, a lot depends on how many people get involved--the more controversial ones attract more commenters.
You've probably noticed that there are more lefty commenters than rightys on most of these threads. As a result, I think Dave's articles, which are regarded by most of the leftys as being more right, attract a LOT of them to attack him. So, his threads on a good topic DO tend to be long (and VERY spirited!).
A few weeks ago we had one on China that attracted some commenters from China whom many of us were convinced were paid Chinese government agents. That one went on even longer than this one has so far. But, I don't think this one's over yet.
I think your #519 is very good! We'll see what, if anything, Martita has to say about it.
Tough loading a thread like this on a 512K line!
I'm on a 3.0 Mb DSL line, and it seems like it takes forever to load. What browser are you using? I use Mozilla Firefox--I like the multiple tabbing ability, although that probably wouldn't be too good on 512K.
528 - Clavos
Dave 525,
One possible answer:
If Franco's right, she's got us doing her homework for her. She prods us, then we go out and find and cite and link these sites. Meanwhile, Caracas is monitoring and taking notes, then they do whatever it is they do with the info?
529 - Clavos
BTW, Dave. It's your thread...Do I get a prize for being #500??
530 - Clavos
Oops! The thread must have gotten re-numbered...Oh, well.
531 - Jerry
#525: "That makes her demand to show documentation more than a little hypocritical. Why does she ask for it if she isn't going to pay any attention to it?"
Franco's theory is very plausible, but her continual request for documentation is probably also a strategy used by propagandists when they are running low on ammo, but still wanting to maintain some semblance of viability in the minds of the gullible
532 - Franco
Clavos,
Thanks for your comment on #519.
My system fails to meet the minimum system requirements to run Mossill Firefox. They require at lest a 52 MB hard drive and I don’t have it. So I am running Microsoft Explore 6+ and have it set on high security and then run it through Symantics’ Norton Internet Security software, which contains a strong firewall.
The 516k DSL works for most of what I do. But if blogging gets into my blood, I may have to bump up to 1024K or higher. For now, when I post to this thread I just do something else for a few minutes and I find it reload and refreshed. It's been a learning experience anyway.
I can not even conceive of what working with a 3.0 Mb must be like when surfing the net. Is it like changing channels with a remote on a TV?
533 - Clavos
3Mb is over the telephone line.
A lot of people have cable (same as TV) and get 6Mb.
I get my TV via satellite, so I don't have the cable. It's possible to get internet via satellite, but very expensive.
I have a friend who has a laptop with an "aircard", which works over the same network as cellular phone. It's not quite as fast as my DSL, but he can use his computer anywhere that his cellular provider has coverage, even in a moving automobile. That's really cool. I'm thinking of getting it some day.
534 - Franco
Clavos,
Wait a minute. I do have 52 MB on my hard drive. I am tired and thinking GB. I could switch over to trying Mozilla Firefox, but then you know we are creatures of habit and when one gets used to a software setup for a long time that operational habit sets in and you are just surfing and not thinking about it. Is Mozilla Firefox as big as an impovement as they claim on their web site, and how much different is it the IE?
535 - Clavos
It's supposed to be safer because fewer people use it than use IE, so they claim it's not as attractive to the hackers and virus peddlers, etc.
Like you, I have a firewall, virus software, AdAware, etc. so I can't really speak to that aspect of it. I can't remember when I last had a virus.
The best part of it is, as I said before, the "tabbing" feature, which allows you to have multiple pages (or websites) open simultaneously. By clicking the tabs, you can switch back and forth easily--very handy when you're researching for a comment here on BC, for example.
If you have enough HD space, do what I did: it's free, so go ahead and download it, but don't remove your IE until you've checked Firefox out thoroughly. In fact, if you have the HD space, just don't remove IE at all--I've still got mine.
536 - Dave Nalle
If Franco's right, she's got us doing her homework for her. She prods us, then we go out and find and cite and link these sites. Meanwhile, Caracas is monitoring and taking notes, then they do whatever it is they do with the info?
That's an interesting take on it. But what would Caracas do with the info? I find it improbable that they'd work to actually solve the problems we've raised. Are you suggesting they'd work to try to silence the critics who are exposing what they're doing?
BTW, Dave. It's your thread...Do I get a prize for being #500??
Damn, I forgot to file the order for a special prize. We'll have to wait until #1000.
Dave
537 - troll
Franco - here's some 'humanist' stuff to help since you choose to avoid the evidence of everyday life - may it serve as grist for your sophistry:
neither 'the gods' nor any other driving necessity has anything to do with our poverty...it results from real people struggling (to fuck one another over) for an advantage
these days people use capitalist theory and religious dogma to rationalize and normalize this behavior and to excuse the situation with ideas like 'the poor will be with you always' and 'successful capitalism requires some level of poverty'
but there is reason for hope - each of us is in control of his own actions and is responsible for their consequences...a simple matter of free will...the power of choice
so don't do that - but rather focus on the notion that if a system of production and distribution works at all then it's success and longevity will depend on how well it works for all
538 - Jerry
Franco,
Sorry for not responding to #519 sooner; just scanned over last night, read completely now.
It is an eloquent, informative reponse that validates and elaborates upon what true patriots are feeling in their gut.
I have felt the tug of doubt and shame that you speak of, and the weariness of the perpetual onslaught from the whining, acccusing Left.
The only caution I retain is that which pertains to Pres. Bush. I am not fully convinced that all of his policies and actions have been in our best interest, but for the most part, yes, he is far superior than a Kerry or Carter.
In any case, our values and ideals are coming under tremendous attack, and we need to rally behind him. Most Americans are, it seems, choosing to ignore what's happening, filling any spare time with beer, ball, and boobs I hope they will shake it off and wake up.
539 - Dave Nalle
but there is reason for hope - each of us is in control of his own actions and is responsible for their consequences...a simple matter of free will...the power of choice
Very true up until the point where we use our choice to give up that power of choice to an authoritarian state, which is what I think a lot of us on this thread see as a very real threat.
dave
540 - Clavos
Dave 537:
Are you suggesting they'd work to try to silence the critics who are exposing what they're doing?
Actually, yes.
Here are a couple of excerpts from this article in today's Miami Herald, "Venezuelans to gather today to speak out against Chávez":
One of the deterring factors has been fear, said Venezuelan human rights activist Patricia Andrade.
''I am an example of what can happen, because I'm living here and yet I have received death threats and they have taped my phone calls because of my work for human rights,'' said Andrade, founder of the Venezuela Awareness Foundation. ``People see what happens to me and think, `they could do that to me and to my family.'''
Andrade has filed a complaint with the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights because of threats, Venezuelan government accusations that she is a terrorist and coup-plotter, and the hacking of her personal e-mail accounts -- all attempts by the Chávez government to intimidate her, she says.
And:
Others say they can't afford to take risks by getting too involved in opposition activities.
''I have my family in Venezuela, and whatever I say here could be bad for them,'' said Leopoldo Torres, 21, who is seeking asylum in the United States.
''That's how they attack the opposition, by going after your family,'' Torres said.
Torres left Venezuela a year ago, he says, after he was beaten by Chávez supporters because of his family connection to dissident Venezuelan labor leader Carlos Ortega, who was jailed for leading a crippling oil strike against the Chávez government.
These are people living in US who are intimidated by this guy. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.
541 - Franco
#537
Dave Nalle
"That's an interesting take on it. But what would Caracas do with the info? I find it improbable that they'd work to actually solve the problems we've raised. Are you suggesting they'd work to try to silence the critics who are exposing what they're doing?"
I don’t think Caracas would care about all the issues we’ve raised, as many of them are general and collective. But there could be a list of issues with priority and of importance to Caracas. Agents would be trained on finding specific issues of concern.
The web is huge, and documents damaging to Chavez exposed at the wrong time are like land mines waiting for Chavez. Having one go off at the wrong time would not set well with him. Finding these document land mines now allows Caracas to employ their network of internal and external spin doctors to publish counter documents to create serious credibility doubts on what otherwise could be seen as facts against Chavez.
Having advanced warning of document land mines allows Chavez to walk his path with more confidence to boldly go were no one has gone before.
542 - McNab
Dave, the problem of land redistribution lay in the fact that US financed Contras littered the land with the murdered and mutilated bodies of Nicaraguan peasants and their families. If you find the intestinal fortitude to peek out of your creepy little Den of Denial read Fr. Miguel D' Escoto's "Ronald Reagan was the Butcher of my People".
543 - Dave Nalle
These are people living in US who are intimidated by this guy. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.
Others have certainly pulled this off. The Israelis and the PLO have both assassinated critics within the US.
Franco, what you're suggesting makes a lot of sense. We've seen that North Korea and Red China both engage in defensive disinformation through the web, with government-employed spinmeisters showing up to defend their regimes whenever a post appears on a major site like BC which is critical of their policies.
And McNab, more dead peasants means more land to redistribute to the survivors. It's a cynical thought, but the Contras depredations among the population should have made Nicaragua more prosperous, not less. Fewer mouths to feed would be a godsend for an impoverished country trying to implement massive reforms. Face up to it, Ortega and the Sandinistas were the problem once they go into power.
I love that you linked to Democracy Now. Why not just link directly to the Socialist International?
Dave
544 - Franco
Clavos #541
To add support to what you have said. Here is what Jose, the only Venezuelan to post on this thread had to say about your point.
#79 - Jose - "All my family is in Venezuela and even though I am here, I know what is happening in my country being ruled by this person".
Now here is how our suspected agent first responds to Jose. Note how she first engages him in a seemingly polite conversation that is quickly revealed to be an interrogation, followed immediately by character assassination through insinuations, and then followed by insults. This is a classic from of slander interrogation to silence, discredit, and or eliminate anything of possible threat to the state.
#86 - marthe raymond - "Jose, If all your family is in Venezuela, may I ask why you are in the US? I am also curious as to where you learned English. The reason I ask, is because many Venezuelans in the US are folks from families of privilege who form part of the Miama Mafia and who have funded paramilitaries attempting to overthrow the democratically-elected government of Venezuela. Apparently you did not read my comment where I mentioned several visits to Venezuela....I am sorry to hear that the potholes in the streets upset you so much".
545 - McNab
Dave, when, if ever, you sober up, you may come up with a rational thought or two re the slaughter of innocent men women and children in Nicaragua by Ronald Reagan's hired killers. I really didn't expect you to read Fr. Miguel D'Escoto's comments in the link I provided. It was added for the benefit of readers who aren't afraid of reality.
546 - Franco
#543
McNab
"Dave, the problem of land redistribution lay in the fact that US financed Contras littered the land with the murdered and mutilated bodies of Nicaraguan peasants and their families. If you find the intestinal fortitude to peek out of your creepy little Den of Denial read Fr. Miguel D' Escoto's "Ronald Reagan was the Butcher of my People".
McNab,
1.) Democracy Now is one of the most one sided fare left anti-US sites on the net. It never has anyting good to say about America.
2.) The US did finance Contras, true, and they did it to advance the American agenda. But you left out the other half to this story. The fact that Russia, China and Cuba financed the anti-US communist rebles to advance the Communist agenda. Please explain to me why it is always the US that is the financial bad guy when acvancing its agenda, and Russia, China, or Cuba are never the bad guys when financing theirs?
Dumping one-sided anti-US web sites on us, and one sided information on financial conflict backing gets you no were McNab. It is what third graders do when trying to make their points.
Recess is over McNab, time to get back to class...
547 - Franco
McNab,
Maybe your leaving out the communist finacial war efferts are due to fear. You my be afraid to be critical becaues they don't take to kindly to it.
Russian war critic writer murdered
CNN International October 7, 2006
MOSCOW, Russia (AP) -- A Russian journalist known for her critical coverage of the war in Chechnya was shot to death Saturday in Moscow, police said.
Anna Politkovskaya's body was found in an elevator in an apartment building, a duty officer at a central Moscow police station told The Associated Press.
A pistol and four bullets were found in the elevator, the Interfax news agency reported, citing police officials.
Politkovskaya was respected for her critical, in-depth coverage of the Russian government campaign in Chechnya.
In 2004, she fell seriously ill with symptoms of food poisoning after drinking tea on a flight from Moscow to southern Russia during the school hostage crisis in Beslan. At the time, her colleagues suspected it was an attempt on her life.
548 - Franco
McNab,
PS, and these are the same Russins who will be installing new factories in Venezela to manufacture the new AK-103, an advanced version of the AK47.
549 - McNab
Franco, the historical facts and figures re US/Nicaragua remain the same regardless of Left, Right or Center. The US supported the oppression of the common people in Nicaragua and were happy to participate in the murder of thousands of them to keep it that way. The Red Scare was a Red Herring as usual and still the US had/has no right to interfere in the self-determination of another state. Unless you happen to be one of those nutbars who believes in US Manifest Destiny you'll understand that undeniable fact.
I look foreward to hearing from you when you start playing with a full deck.
550 - Clavos
McNab,
Franco, the historical facts and figures re US/Nicaragua remain the same regardless of Left, Right or Center.
Uh huh. Figures don't lie.
But liars figure.
C'mon McN, I was born at night, but it wasn't last night...
551 - McNab
So, Franco, I have to remind you that Moscow's current Chechnya affair is a part of its capitalist ventures. Sheesh!
I know, I know, you'd prefer a US installed dictator in Venezuela buying weapons from.....let me guess..the USA...to keep the peasants in their place.
552 - Franco
#539
Jerry
Thank you Jerry. I think though that boobs could be hard to shake off. But that should not be held against us.
553 - McNab
Clavos, go figure.
554 - Dave Nalle
McNab, the regrettable death of innocents in war and the economic impact of population reduction are two separate issues. We can mourn the deaths on one hand, while recognizing that it DOES mean fewer mouths to feed and certain advantages for the government that won the struggle. Advantages which were not enough to minimize the devastation of the economy caused by their attempt to impose socialism there.
And even though everything you say in #550 is right (except for the mistaken comment about the red menace), nothing negative done by the US excuses the imposition of totalitarian socialist dictatorship on the people of any central or south american country. Destroying the lives of the people of your country and forcing them into state-run oppression is NOT a good way of getting back at the US, it just hurts the people even more. At least US policies were designed to improve economies and create new trading partners, even if they were negligent of the welfare of the common people in some ways.
Dave
555 - Franco
Mcab #550
Red Scare was a Red Herring as usual
Your allegation that my pointing out the direct involvement of Russian, Chinese, and Cuban communist financual and weapons backing and training to Nicaragua communists guerrillas as being a Red Herring is faults.
You contention would be corrent had I tried to introduce subject matter that was not relevant to your topic. However that is not the case. What I introduced was directly relevant information that you conveniently leave out. This addition is not a Red Herring. Your trying to suggest that it is are only additional efforts on your part at trying to draw support for your half truths and one sided analyze in trying to make your point. You should look up the proper definition of "Red Herring" so you know how to apply it in the future.
Additionally, the corrections I am making to your following statement are not Red Herrings either. These corrections are just as inclusive and balanced in telling the whole story. Something you are afraid to do probably because you loose the distortions you try and create to win your point.
The US supported the oppression of the
common peoplecommunist backed guerillas in Nicaragua and werehappydedicated toparticipate in the murder of thousands of them to keep it that waydefeating the communist fincanced aggression.McNab, I have already admitted that you are right in stating that the US was involved in financially backing Nicaraguans against anit-US communist financed guerrilla forces in Nicaragua. And I have admitted that the US did in fact do this to advance the American Agenda. So why can’t you admit that the anti-US forces in Nicaragua where well trained communist finaced grellas used by Russa, Chian, and Cuba to furrthe their Communist agenda.
The lives that were lost by the military expenitures between the opposing forces of these two agendas, Amercias vs Russian, Chinese, and Cuban, are a tragidy and I would never sugest that they should be over looked.
But why are you unwilling to concede that the powerful forces of the communist financed war effort are not a play or responsible. What are you afraid you will loose if admitting this? You loose nothing McNab, instead you allow the debate to begin. Unless that is not what you want. If that is the case then what is your agenda.
Here, let me admit more to you………
America's involvement in Nicaragua violated the Boland Amendment, which cut off aid to the contras in 1984. The Boland Amendment, which was passed by the liberals in Congress, became an obstacle and obstruction to the fight against the communist aggression. Oliver North's covert actions insturmented help in loosening communism's grip on the world.
Why can't you admit that the communist used the Nicaraguans to try and advance there agenda?
Insisting on white washing well-trained and well-armed communist financed guerillas as weak common Nicaraguan peasants and their families, when in truth, they are just as ruthless and deadly as any well trained force, shows your unwillingness to enter this debate with real facts to be debated. This is just like claiming that all Islamic Imperialist terrorests are really only innocent civilians being butchered by the US.
It's unture, unworthy, and un reolistic.
Will you come out of the shadows and address the whole picture?
556 - McNab
Dave, what were you stuffing your mouth with when you wrote that rubbish...180 proof rum cake?
US foreign policy is designed to swell the bank accounts of greedy Americans and their lapdogs. And if that means that the US and its cronies have to murder thousands of innocent men women and children, you can bet your life they won't hesitate.
557 - McNab
Franco, #557 is the whole picture. The US murdered thousands of innocent men women and children in Nicaragua, El Salvador and Guatemala for profit. The US is murdering innocent men women and children right now in Iraq for profit.
If you can't grasp what's going on before your own eyes then you're beyond help in this forum and any like it.
558 - Franco
#538 troll
”Franco - here's some 'humanist' stuff to help since you choose to avoid the evidence of everyday life - may it serve as grist for your sophistry:
neither 'the gods' nor any other driving necessity has anything to do with our poverty...it results from real people struggling (to fuck one another over) for an advantage
If poverty is to be blamed on (people struggling to fuck one another over) then can you correctly explain how the ideology of “humanistic principles” can eliminate that desire in people. And how “humanistic principals” differ from “capitalism” in dealing with this.
these days people use capitalist theory and religious dogma to rationalize and normalize this behavior and to excuse the situation with ideas like 'the poor will be with you always' and 'successful capitalism requires some level of poverty'
Any capitalist or religion organization that tries to rationalize and or normalize and except poverty in any degree is not comminuted or responsibly in dealing with poverty. Additionally it is not rational to assume or to make generalizations that all capitalist or religion organizations hold this position. Bad apples are found everywhere and in everything, even those who prophases to practice “humanistic principals” Don’t misunderstand my troll, I don’t know you and I am not suggesting you are a bad apple.
but there is reason for hope - each of us is in control of his own actions and is responsible for their consequences...a simple matter of free will...the power of choice
Read my post #31.
1) You will find example of the evidence of everyday life that you claim I avoid, of capitalism working to combat poverty. You will find the true story of the free will of people choosing to either leave poverty or of those who choose to stay in it.
2) Would you agree that these people were in control of their own actions and are thus responsible for the consequences?
3) How would the ideology and practice of “humanistic principles” have better helped those that choose to stay in poverty get out of poverty then capitalism that couldn’t?
You not making your case until you address how the bad apples find existence in all ideologies. It is only then can we work towards the best means to minimize their impact on all of us and on overall humanity.
Can you open up a little more and address this issue.
so don't do that - but rather focus on the notion that if a system of production and distribution works at all then it's success and longevity will depend on how well it works for all
I could not agree with you more.
troll, what system of production and distribution practices has worked better for all its people over any other system in the modern world?
559 - Clavos
McNab 557 558,
What do you suggest as an alternative?
560 - Franco
Clavos,
That is so weerd that you posted that. That's want I just dried to post but it did'nt take.
561 - McNab
Clavos
557... artificial rum flavoring.
558... a lifetime psychotherapy gift certificate for Franco and a guest. Go for it!
562 - Clavos
Figured as much, McN.
563 - Franco
McNab #562
"a lifetime psychotherapy gift certificate for Franco and a guest."
45 Communist Goals
Goal #39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
564 - Franco
Clavos,
He won't engage, can't get in the saddle!
565 - Franco
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
October, 7, 2006
The world needs to watch Russia's current pressure on Georgia. Its decision this week to ban trade, travel and postal links to neighboring Georgia isn't the first time Moscow has tangled with the former Soviet republic. But it is a fresh
reminder of just how paranoid and bullying the Kremlin's foreign policy has become in the hands of President Vladimir Putin.
President Vladimir Putin has blamed the conflict on Georgia and spurned Western calls to lift the sanctions, saying Georgian conduct was "aimed at escalating tension."
Its worth pointing out what President Vladimir Putin calls people protesting for liberty, freedom and true democracy.
566 - McNab
Ten of thousands...
Hundreds of thousands....
Millions of people marched through Caracas in support of the main opposition candidate Manuel Rosales. Presso'matic Inc.
567 - Dave Nalle
US foreign policy is designed to swell the bank accounts of greedy Americans and their lapdogs.
Translated out of Marx-o-Speech that means that the US promotes business development in the third world so it can form partnerships with local businesses which profit both US interests and their third world partners, raising up the economies of developing nations and improving the lives of all their citizens.
And if that means that the US and its cronies have to murder thousands of innocent men women and children, you can bet your life they won't hesitate.
Why would murdering people be necessary in order to do business with them? You make no sense. You don't murder the workforce in the places you want to do business. That's counterproductive.
Dave
568 - troll
Franco - it's a twisted abstract path that leads from the premiss that each of us is responsible for his actions to the conclusion that poor people are poor by choice...
you ask *what system of production and distribution practices has worked better for all its people over any other system in the modern world?*
I don't know of any that has done an outstanding job of caring for the 'least among you' - but my choices are limited
'socialism' is the only system practiced these days...State planned manipulation of the market through taxation and regulation (control of ownership) subsidies (control of distribution) and contracts (control of production)...different countries and administrations implementing variations on this theme
...bad apples - ? people are all rotten fruits to the extent that they act in support of systems that require losers so that there can be winners
569 - McNab
Ah yes, the ever altruistic USA sucks up 50% of the world's resources to...uuuuuum...improve the lives of people in the third world. It's over in Iraq right now 'raising up the economy' by terrorizing the population. It installed, for business purposes, hideous heads of state in Iran, Guatemala, Nicaragua and El salvador resulting in the mass murder of thousands of innocent men women and children. It invaded Panama, killing hundreds, maybe thousands, of innocent men women and children to capture one man. My, what a boost to their economy that was!
And what a downright evil way to do business.
570 - Clavos
Aahh yes, McNab, who has lots of mostly bullshit opinions, but who offers no alternatives or solutions.
Talk is cheap.
571 - Dave Nalle
Ah yes, the ever altruistic USA sucks up 50% of the world's resources to...uuuuuum...improve the lives of people in the third world.
That's not what we use all those resources for. The two activities are pretty much separate.
It invaded Panama, killing hundreds, maybe thousands, of innocent men women and children to capture one man. My, what a boost to their economy that was!
Are you honestly trying to claim that Panama isn't better off now than it was under Noriega?
Dave
572 - McNab
Clavos, gibberish is even cheaper and you never miss an opportunity to prove it.
573 - McNab
Give up the lame attempts at being clever, Dave. You're not suggesting that a US puppet government was installed at gunpoint to benefit the Panamanians are you???? A piss poor joke when the mass graves of the men women and children murdered by Bush senior's invasion are still being investigated.
574 - Clavos
McNab 573:
You're right. But, I can't help myself; you keep posting so many beautiful examples of it for me to highlight.
575 - Dave Nalle
McNab, I don't suggest anything about the primary intention of the invasion of Panama - which was obviously part of the misguided war on drugs. But the Noriega regime WAS repressive, and he put far more people in mass graves than the invasion did, and the fact is that the government now is better and more humane and that would not have happened without the US invasion. How does it feel to be in the position of championing murderous dictators, btw? Does it make you feel good?
Dave