The evidence is plastered all over the walls of Caracas. Hugo Chavez has joined Mao and Lenin and Mussolini in the Cult of Personality.
Some have taken me to task for being too eager to announce Hugo Chavez' membership in the Junior Dictators Club. After all, he's just trying to help the people of Venezuela and if he's taken away free speech, judicial independence, rendered the legislature meaningless, shut down or intimidated the press and turned the schools into indoctrination centers, it's all been done with the best intentions. He may have complete autocratic power, a growing military and designs on his neighbors, but at least he hasn't tried to raise himself up like a larger than life figure and create a cult of personality. That's one of the things which really set dictators like Mussolini, Hitler, Lennin and Mao apart from more reasonable autocrats.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments626 - moonraven
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
There seems to be a very basic lack of understanding and correct usage of the English language operating on this site.
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
I only refuted Clavos' jingoistic claim that the US was the wealthiest country on the planet!
I did not make any claim regarding wealth for Latin America--which has, in fact, the most unequal distribution of wealth on the planet.
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
627 - Martin Lav
Que? No comprende ingles.
628 - Clavos
"Clavos, the US is a capitalist dictatorship--and it doesn't work except for the very wealthy. Of which you are not a part."
You're right, mr, I'm not very (or even slightly) wealthy, so how come I'm not oppressed? How is it that I'm free to say anything I want short of slander or libel, including criticize the president, his cabinet, the congress and even the clerks at the post office, to my heart's content? For a dictatorship, that's a lot of freedom. You try criticizing Calderón, gringa.
"I only refuted Clavos' jingoistic claim that the US was the wealthiest country on the planet!"
No, actually you didn't, gringa. You only showed that there are a few much smaller countries which on a per capita basis are "wealthier" than the US. None of them are as wealthy as the US is in the aggregate.
629 - Franco
Which county leads the world in donor and humanitarian aid.
Um............U..........Umm................S.............mmm................A?
Correct Answer, 10 points.
World’s largest single country donor of foreign aid. U.S. official development assistance of $22.7 billion (estimated) in 2006 is the second highest annual level ever provided by any donor country. (The U.S. provided $27.6 billion in 2005).
630 - troll
nothing good about America - ?
this one special for 'moonraven'
631 - Martin Lav
Trust me, the US got a whole lot better when she left.
632 - Clavos
troll,
Loved it! The confederate flag is the crowning touch! :>)
And all the way from bonnie Scotland no less!!
Hee Hee.
633 - troll
...the capitalist and socialist countries on that list of wealth and their lackey banker states should wear their positions as badges of shame and get to work healing the world
634 - brian
silver surfer: 'How did that well-know social activist and voice of world conscience Naomi Campbell end up on this thread being touted by Brian as some bizarre evidence that Hugo Chavez is instituting hugely impressive social programs for his people?'
Me: Yes she seems to be...as she with Nelson Mandela foundation. Go read the article i posted...again
SS: 'Chavez might well be handing over apartment blocks to the poor and the downtrodden, but dragging La Campbell along for the ride is a bit rich, don't ya reckon?'
Me: Not at all...her enthusiasm for what Chavez and his govt has achieved is obvious.
SS: 'Naomi's idea of social change in the past has involved leaving one party full of the rich and famous for another because it doesn't have the right people or the right mood-altering substances.'
Me: 'People do change....you may not.
635 - brian
So many misconceptions and so little time.
Dave: 'First off, most corporations in the US encourage workers to invest in stock in those corporations under very beneficial terms, making them at least in part owners in the company, and certainly letting them share in the profits.'
Me: so you urge workers to become investors. All this does is makes those who can afford it complicit in the profiteering imperitive...that is they too would vote to offshore jobs....
Dave: 'Second, when jobs are sent 'offshore' the net result is an increase in management positions in the home company with the workers whose jobs were exported often moved into higher paying supervisory jobs. On the whole, when a job is sent overseas it creates at least two new, higher paying jobs at home.'
Me: this one is laughable...theres usually more indians than chiefs....the indians lose their jobs...while the chiefs dont...that WILL create more friction between the classes.
Youve not proven your absurd claim, but it reminds me of Bessemers wheel....
In the end youll be a a nation of managers with nothing to manage!
Dave: 'You might want to try looking at modern, capitalist businesses as they ARE rather than as the unrealistic boogeymen you've been told they are.'
Me: this is how they are dave...crude profit making machines but not for the peoplewho do the work...just the investor class
636 - brian
dave: 'Well, those towering intellects Gisele Bundchen and Naomi Campbell are on Brian's side. Clearly we've been fools to argue with him.'
Me: notice how those towering intellects the neocons have launched wars that have killed > 1 million people. They can do with a little of Campbell's caring spirit.
Another towering intellect: 'Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.
--60 Minutes (5/12/96)'
The nazis were had towering intellects among them...
You area fool, Dave...a clever fool, but a fool nonetheless...glad you recognise it. Fooled by Bush, fooled by capitalism etc
637 - brian
clavos: 'And, unlike Venezuela and Cuba, none are dictatorships.'
neither are dictatorships....just thought i'd help you along...Now in the US, we'd have a dictatorship if the democrats showed more spine...as it is Bushs executive orders, dictatorial as they are, are not quite necessary as there is no opposition.
638 - Franco
#623 " Christopher Rose
Dave, firstly, you were the one to add the qualifier pure to socialism, so your objection is pointless and secondly, I wasn't aware that it is a requirement of socialism to have a centrally directed economy. I thought that was the goal of the early communists.
Christopher, help me understand your point to Dave, because is seems to be absent in regard for what Dave, myself and many others are making in regards to Chavez, and I don’t see Dave’s point out of context as it appears you see it from your statement.
Because Cuba would quality as a centrally directed economy as pure socilism. No?
And seeing Chavez as taking and making the very same steps Castor did, Chavez is taking them more slowly or cunningly because of riding into power on votes not guns, but the steps are the same and go against the very pillars of democracy, or what you call 21st Century socialism.
The steps by Chavez have so fare, and are continuing to, set the stage for complete control of everything and everyone all at the hands of military enforcement.
Wouldn’t you agree? So help me understand your point to Dave.
Finally, socialism and capitalism are not opposites or in any way mutually incompatible. Just a small heads up from the 21st Century...
In less of course the social authorities sent you a letter to inform you.
Dear Mr. Rose
We are sure you are watchful of the energy and resources belonging to the social community at large. Our assessments for required energy and resources in meeting the ever-growing community budgets are at the very heart of the social community
Your services as comments editor at BC have been professional and appreciated, but are no longer required by the community as to the certainty that the debate over socialism and capitalism has ended deserving to there total mutually. We feel that further waist of the community’s energies and resources are not in harmony with the overall social justice of the community.
We therefore request you suspend your professional serves at BC forthwith and review our kind offer for positively effecting the community on a larger scale in the further stay of these wasteful resources concerning these needless debates that have been increasing in intensity on other indecisive internet blogs.
Kinky present the attached request form to your local director general at the Center for Social Justice and Resource Management in your community.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
Regards,
Federal Center for Social Justice and Community Resource Management Authorities.
(FCSJ-CRMA)
639 - Christopher Rose
Franco, you're confused. Dave's remarks were in response to comment #618, which had nothing to do with Cuba.
I think we're talking somewhat at cross purposes. Please note that eight of the "Top 10" countries in that list are in Europe, where we seem to have a different set of priorities and concerns than you Americans.
I don't understand how anybody could have an objection to capitalism, although it obviously needs a proper structure within which to function.
Similarly, I don't see how anybody except the most rigidly dogmatic could object to some social considerations being relevant to the management of contemporary existence.
As to Dave, I have difficulty in perceiving his political philosophy beyond that he seems to see things in very simplistic terms wherein "freedom" is good and "management" is bad.
He will possibly take it as some kind of dis when I say that I find his approach and concerns both dated and naive, but I don't mean to insult, merely to place things in a contemporary perspective from this distant shore.
640 - Dave Nalle
As to Dave, I have difficulty in perceiving his political philosophy beyond that he seems to see things in very simplistic terms wherein "freedom" is good and "management" is bad.
You do indeed have perceptual difficulties. Of course I think freedom is good. I think it is probably the greatest good. But where did I ever oppose 'management'? That's what we have government for, to manage the things we don't want to or can't manage ourselves. Even capitalism needs to be managed in certain areas. What I'm opposed to is oppression, which is a whole different kettle of fish. I don't like the idea of governments which arbitrarily take freedoms, or sacrifice the freedoms of their citizens to advance their own power or the power of an oligarchy or bureaucratic class.
He will possibly take it as some kind of dis when I say that I find his approach and concerns both dated and naive, but I don't mean to insult, merely to place things in a contemporary perspective from this distant shore.
No, it's fine, Christopher. It's abundantly clear that at some point you got an impression of me and my beliefs which is peculiar and skewed and you've been operating off of that initial impression ever since.
As for the socialism vs. capitalism thing, you're attempting to disagree with me, yet you're stating almost exactly the same thing I said in #620. I think that gets to the heart of why we butt heads - you just like to.
Dave
641 - Dave Nalle
Me: so you urge workers to become investors. All this does is makes those who can afford it complicit in the profiteering imperitive...that is they too would vote to offshore jobs....
What you don't seem to get is that having workers profiting from a company is NOT a bad thing.
Me: this one is laughable...theres usually more indians than chiefs....the indians lose their jobs...while the chiefs dont...that WILL create more friction between the classes.
What classes? I thought we'd already laid that silly misconception to rest.
As for sending jobs overseas, each US job outsourced creates on average 11 jobs overseas and 1 management job here in the US.
In the end youll be a a nation of managers with nothing to manage!
Except, of course, the rest of the world.
Dave
642 - Franco
#639 " Christopher Rose
Franco, you're confused. Dave's remarks were in response to comment #618, which had nothing to do with Cuba.
Thank you for pointing out mistaken cross purposes. But I think that was Dave point when accounting for the spesifici discussion/debate on the newest member to the socialist club now in Latin America.
Please note that eight of the "Top 10" countries in that list are in Europe, where we seem to have a different set of priorities and concerns than you Americans.
I don't understand how anybody could have an objection to capitalism, although it obviously needs a proper structure within which to function.
I agree, and the text in bold concerning the details of “proper structure” is the very heart of the debate. Could you elaborate a bit.
Similarly, I don't see how anybody except the most rigidly dogmatic could object to some social considerations being relevant to the management of contemporary existence.
I agree, and similarly the text in bold is at the heart of the same discussion/debate. Could you elaborate a bit.
As to Dave, I have difficulty in perceiving his political philosophy beyond that he seems to see things in very simplistic terms wherein "freedom" is good and "management" is bad.
Could you then shed some political philosophy in less simplistic terms wherein you see “freedom” is bad and “management” is good.
He will possibly take it as some kind of dis when I say that I find his approach and concerns both dated and naive, but I don't mean to insult, merely to place things in a contemporary perspective from this distant shore.
Can you be more specific on how your European contemporary perspective sees the pluses and minuses when comparing our basic cultural differences in that, Americans tending to be more into individualism and self sufficiency, and Europeans being into more cared for by the state.
643 - Christopher Rose
I don't think freedom, at least in absolute terms, is the greatest good and I'm sure you, if you took a moment to think rather than didact, would agree.
The problem is that you have this fixed mindset that worries too much about government control.
You may not have specifically lashed out against the concept of management but surely someone so committed to freedom as you bridles at the very notion. It's certainly the impression you give.
The fact of the matter is that as society grows larger and more complex, government and regulation must grow with it. The only alternative I am aware of is if people and their constructs took a more holistic rather than individualistic view of things. The prospects for that seem as bright as those for you updating your mindset.
As for me being the one that like to butt heads, that is classic pot/kettle stuff. You're the one that is incapable of either refraining from arguing with people or actually departing from your quaint views. Get over yourself.
644 - troll
*The only alternative I am aware of is if people and their constructs took a more holistic rather than individualistic view of things.*
the whole hologram 'exists' in each individual piece...read your Bentov
645 - Christopher Rose
Franco, sorry to be brief but I'm going to watch Manchester United play Kiev in a minute.
I don't really have detailed responses to your first two questions. Maybe if Dave could let go of his dogma, he could riff on these themes, he's the policy wonk after all!
In terms of freedom being bad and management good, it all depends on specific circumstances. Obviously people should have as much freedom as possible, but equally obviously not freedom to indulge their every impulse.
As to the US/self-sufficient vs European/dependent, as far as I know that's a complete myth. There's certainly far more law and possibly more state intrusion in the USA than anywhere I know of in Western Europe.
Sorry for being brief, but football is more important than politics!
646 - Dave Nalle
I don't think freedom, at least in absolute terms, is the greatest good and I'm sure you, if you took a moment to think rather than didact, would agree.
What would you propose as more important than freedom? What quality of life is meaningful if we aren't free to enjoy it? What pleasure is worth having if we sacrifice our freedom to have it?
The problem is that you have this fixed mindset that worries too much about government control.
I think that's the product of moving from the US at the height of the free spiritedness of the 1960s to the Soviet Union at the height of the post-Stalin grimness of the 1970s. The contrast left an indelible impression on me. It taught me immediate lessons which I think that others struggle to come to grips with. Not having had that experience you don't understand how important freedom is and how easily it can be taken away.
You may not have specifically lashed out against the concept of management but surely someone so committed to freedom as you bridles at the very notion. It's certainly the impression you give.
If what you're really talking about is the same concept of management I expect from government, then I really don't have a problem with it. Government regulation of things like public safety and infrastructure is reasonable and necessary.
The fact of the matter is that as society grows larger and more complex, government and regulation must grow with it.
Here is where I disagree. As government grows larger and more complex, the answer is to tear government down to its basics and start over again.
The only alternative I am aware of is if people and their constructs took a more holistic rather than individualistic view of things. The prospects for that seem as bright as those for you updating your mindset.
Sounds like a vague and ineffective answer to the problem to me. Moving away from individual responsibility just means moving towards giving that responsibility to government and making it grow even larger.
IMO the only real 'holistic' solution is to tear down government, reassign responsibility to individuals as much as possible and try to rebuild society organically. Failing that radical solution we just have to keep an eye on government and not let it get too powerful.
Dave
647 - troll
...actually Chris - Dave usually bitches about stupid government management rather than government management per say...despite his protestations he's a good socialist soldier
648 - troll
('per se' of course)
649 - Dave Nalle
There's certainly far more law and possibly more state intrusion in the USA than anywhere I know of in Western Europe.
Goofy statements like this are why we're at loggerheads, Christopher. I agree that the US in practice is much less free than we like to think we are, but in Western Europe you're also less free than you think you are.
The reason you think that the US has more restriction on freedom than we think that it does, is likely because you define different things as essential to freedom than we do. If we don't even think of freedom in the same terms all of our other disagreements might flow from that.
My quick guess is that from the European viewpoint, freedom is seen mainly as freedom from certain things, while Americans see freedom more as freedom to do certain things. It's the difference between freedom from hunger and the freedom to own a gun and hunt for food.
Does that make any sense?
Dave
650 - Don Helmut
If America is so bad why do they give more in aid than countries that practice paternal socialism? Shouldn't countries so concerned with equality be on the forefront of philanthropy without "stupid" America having to bail them out all the time.
The main misconception that socialism struggles under is they constantly make promises they can't keep. Pure social will may get a man on the moon but it can't bankroll massive unaffordable social programs.
651 - moonraven
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
"The vice president of the United States was talking about us, but he made a mistake," Chavez said, laughing. "Since those who govern the United States are a bunch of ignorant fools... he thinks I'm president of Peru."
"They don't know where Venezuela is, nor do they know where Peru is," Chavez told the crowd.
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
But Cheney has bombs.
652 - troll
Marthe - I don't get your repetition of this particular attack - we all know that Dave knows where Venezuela is...he mis-wrote himself yet you carry it on
why - ?
653 - moonraven
He did NOT know!
He said it was in CENTRAL America.
CENTRAL America is not spelled anything like SOUTH America.
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
654 - troll
perhaps he didn't know the correct boundaries of central america...he does now
655 - moonraven
He also says he is a "historian".
I have news for both of you: History and Geography are inextricably related.
Central America was all ONE country until independence.
Some historian.
The stupidity of you gringos makes me sick to my stomach.
656 - alessandro
Regarding, MR's obsession over a geographical error: That's why certain countries never move forward: they're stuck in the past.
CR, Man Utd. is looking fine but Arsenal still finer. Looking forward to the Roma/Man Utd. match. By then both seem likely to qualify. This may take some umpf from the match.
That said,
"In terms of freedom being bad and management good, it all depends on specific circumstances. Obviously people should have as much freedom as possible, but equally obviously not freedom to indulge their every impulse."
I agree.
As to the US/self-sufficient vs European/dependent, as far as I know that's a complete myth. There's certainly far more law and possibly more state intrusion in the USA than anywhere I know of in Western Europe.
I don't agree.
While there is more government intrusion in the U.S. than Americans care to admit, it is nowhere near what you see in Europe. That's crazy talk.
Seems to me Sweden is pretty interventionist that American socialists could ever dream of. And from my experiences in France and Italy (both beautiful languages. Especially Italian language of the arts and music and closes to classical Latin. Inside joke everyone), the state there has its hands everywhere - though the people tend to ignore it. I'm sure that includes other countries.
Besides, don't you ever read The Economist which publishes a study yearly that studies this? The U.S. historically always ranks ahead of European countries.
Catch you later.
657 - Franco
CARACAS, Venezuela: A heated falling out between President Hugo Chavez and his former military chief is stirring debate in Venezuela over whether the rift reveals deeper divisions within the military.
Former Defense Minister Raul Baduel, a longtime friend of Chavez, said Tuesday that he isn't ruling out running for political office. He surprised many a day earlier when he condemned Chavez's proposed constitutional reforms as a virtual "coup," urging voters to reject them in a national referendum planned for next month.
Chavez appears to be taking no chances. Condemning Baduel as "one more traitor,"
November 7, 2007
658 - Franco
Hey brian, didn’t you say a coup d'état was illegal?
659 - brian
Dave: 'I agree that the US in practice is much less free than we like to think we are, but in Western Europe you're also less free than you think you are.'
Both statements are fair...
660 - brian
'Help me understand this. Exactly "WHO" are deprived under capitalism, and "WHAT" are they deprived of?'
take a look at New Orleans after Katrina....
AS for the WHO, consider american workers whose work is migrated offshore, for starters
661 - brian
Dave: 'What would you propose as more important than freedom? '
well, dave, absolute freedom means to do what ever you like, when you like, no regard for consequences.This acn include to kll when you like, to rob, etc etc
Even US invasion of Iraq was not quite absolute freedom....
662 - Clavos
"well, dave, absolute freedom means to do what ever you like, when you like, no regard for consequences.This acn include to kll when you like, to rob, etc etc"
You confuse freedom with anarchy, brian.
True freedom carries with it concomitant responsibilities, most of which limit your freedom to intrude on the freedom of others.
663 - brian
Clavos: 'You confuse freedom with anarchy, brian.
True freedom carries with it concomitant responsibilities, most of which limit your freedom to intrude on the freedom of others.'
Clavos, when did you last hear Bush or any freedom monger say: " freedom with concomitant responsibilities, democracy,and opportunity'
Sorry, but tho you are correct, thats not the way this word is promulgated to the masses....
664 - Dave Nalle
Dave: 'What would you propose as more important than freedom? '
well, dave, absolute freedom means to do what ever you like, when you like, no regard for consequences.This acn include to kll when you like, to rob, etc etc
That's not an answer to my question, Brian. I already know what anarchy is, thanks. Now, tell me what you think is more important than freedom.
Dave
665 - troll
...justice - ?
666 - troll
...food - ?
667 - Clavos
"...justice - ?"
Usually not available without freedom.
"...food - ?"
Keeps you alive, but if you're in a dungeon cell, do you want to be?
668 - Clavos
"Clavos, when did you last hear Bush or any freedom monger say: " freedom with concomitant responsibilities, democracy,and opportunity'"
At about the same time I heard Bush say, "Freedom means you can rob anyone you want to."
669 - troll
...property - ?
the old timers listed things in this order: life - liberty - property...and how about the pledge which lists liberty and justice without reducing one to the other
670 - barnyard fowl
One mans freedom is another mans slavery. Seems like it's always that way. For the Israelis to be free the Palestinians must be oppressed. For the Lebanese Christians to be free the Arabs must be oppressed.
For George Bush to be free the Iraqis must be oppressed.
For the invading Europeans to be free in the Americas the indigenous peoples must be oppressed.
Maybe freedom is an illusion. Maybe Kristofferson was right.
Or maybe freedom is just a deliberate deceit: "sorry, in order for me to be free I must kill you and take your goods."
Seems as though the thoughtful person would be well advised to stay clear of any vigorous advocate of HIS Freedom. Or at least regard them very carefully.
Anyway, it seems that 'freedom' is not an unalloyed good.
Next.
671 - troll
nicely put fowl...and for the freedom that I have felt over the years to consume chicken dinners I apologize
672 - Clavos
And speaking of freedom, or in this case, the lack thereof:
According to this Miami Herald report, armed, hooded Chavista thugs, reminescent of the heyday of the KKK, poured onto the campus of the Central University firing their weapons and releasing tear gas in the vicinity of students returning from a peaceful demonstration at the Supreme Court to protest Chavez-proposed changes to the Venezuelan Constitution.
According to the report, as many as 80,000 students participated in the march. Their leaders were received by Supreme Court President Luis Estela Morales, and the entire demonstration was peaceful and nonviolent.
University authorities and other eyewitnesses reported that the armed thugs appeared to be Chavistas. At least nine people were injured in the melee; two by gunfire.
Venezuelan law bars state security forces from entering university campuses, unless requested by university officials.
According to the Associated Press, the protesters are calling for a suspension of the referendum, slated for a vote on December 2, alleging that the proposed amendments will weaken civil liberties and give unprecedented power to Chavez.
The protest by Central University students was mirrored by similar protests led by students in the cities of Merida, Maracaibo, Puerto La Cruz, San Cristobal, Barquisimeto and Valencia.
673 - troll
...as for the identities of the thugs - how does one decide - ?
674 - moonraven
We have seen this before.
On April 11, 2002 the t.v. channels went so far as to MANIPULATE images so that it looked as if chavistas were firing on protestors.
Only one problem: they were firing back at snipers on rooftops and under the bridge there were no protestors anyway--as they had taken a different route.
But the RCTV/GLOBOVISION/VENEVISION gang insisted that Chavez had called for the murder of the opposition. That was how they fomented the brief coup.
We also saw this before when the opposition hired a portgugese hitperson to fire at opposition military folks in Plaza Altamira.
Nobody like the Venezuelan opposition to murder their own for their own ends.
Well, except for the Bush/Cheney Gang, of course.
This, too, will be exposed. The opposition is WAAAAAY too predictable.
Sort of like clavos, who apparently believes that Calderon is now the president of Venezuela.
A day or two ago he told us how much freedom he has to protest against Bush (yeah, just let him raise some of the hell they are raising in the street in Venezuela and we will not hear from him again on this site, as I do not believe posts from Guantanamo are permitted!)
He doesn't have a fraction of the freedom that the opposition has to burn cars and shoot at folks in Caracas--yet he insists that there are no freedoms in Venezuela.
And his final salvo--a complete non sequitur--is that I have no freedom to protest against Calderon.
Well, I have news for the swamprat. Despite Article 33 of the Mexican Constitution which prohibts politicking by foreigners, I have a lot more freedom here than clavos has in Bushlandia.
However, I fail to see that Mexico and Venezuela are the same country. Nor that freedom or the lack of it in Mexico is the topic of this thread.
Another geographically challenged person, apparently.
675 - moonraven
I would like clavos to explain to us HOW HE KNOWS THE IDENTITY of the UNIDENTIFIABLE thugs who opened fire on students.
If he can convince me, I see a whole new career opening up for him as one of those psychics that helps out the cops.
Ooops, maybe not such a good idea--as one of those psychics has been in jail here in Mexico now for 10 years--La Paca--for framing Raul Salinas by planting a skeleton at one of his properties....