I have never really gotten the argument against gay marriage. A lot of what I hear is that it somehow invalidates marriage between a man and a woman. When I ask why, I never get a logical rebuttal based on law and the U.S. Constitution. If your marriage, (talking to straight people here) even for a second, depends on the law saying that only heterosexuals can be married, you don't have a marriage. How are two men, (or women) saying "I love you" and putting rings on each others fingers a danger to your marriage? Go ahead and point to the Bible all you want, but we live in a state of religious freedom, which means people are free to believe whatever they want and say the Bible is a total fictional story and complete b.s. if they want to.
For those of you looking to nit pick legal issues, it is true that the term "separation of church and state" does not appear in the U.S. Constitution. It was however used by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to assure minority religions had the same rights as the majority. The term has also been used often in Supreme Court decisions as early as 1878 in Reynolds v. United States. It has been widely upheld that religion should play no part in United States government.
So back to the main topic, how does gay marriage seem to endanger society? Call me ignorant all you want but I don't get it. I'm heterosexual and would like to get married someday but I really don't see why Adam and Steve getting married affects that.
The California Assembly passed a bill Tuesday, 41-35, that would allow gay marriage. The California State Senate passed the same bill last week. Even though he hasn't come out (no, not figuratively) and actually said it, Gov. Arnold is expected to veto the bill.
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Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Marty Thau
Well stated. I don't see how anyone can refute your conclusions. I agree wholeheartedly but according to all those righteous uptight hypocritcal moralists out there that are frightened and endangered by Adam and Steve, we are perverts, too.
2 - Timmy
Marriage is defined in The Bible as a union between man and woman. "Gay marriage" should be called a partnership because that's what it is. Just don't mistake it with marriage. Other than that, I don't have a fundamental problem with it.
3 - Kurt
But Timmy, what if I think the Bible is a mix of lovely truths and psychotic ravings generated by a bunch of marginalized desert losers? What if I don't think that the Bible should be the basis of US law? We don't follow most of the Bible's laws (dietary, dress. etc.), do we? Why the "pick & choose" defense for discriminatory hatred? If a legal protection applies to one American, it must apply equally to all Americans - that is the fundamental basis of our Constitution!
4 - Victor Lana
Nice post, John.
I am pretty certain that Jesus never said (as quoted in Gospel) that "love" was exclusive between men and women. Remember, this is the guy who said, "Love one another as I have loved you." If I recall correctly, he loved his Apostles very much and they were all MEN. I do not mean this was anything but a chaste love, but still "love" notwithstanding.
My logic is simple: you can't qualify "love" by gender. I am a heterosexual too, but that doesn't mean my way is exclusively the way to love someone.
I think the people who don't get it are the ones who really don't understand the Bible anyway. It was written at the level of illiterate citizenry to get across meaning and values and laws, a long time ago at that.
Anyone who feels threatened by two men wanting to show their love for one another in a meaningful, sacred, and LEGAL way, well maybe they should examine why it worries them so.
5 - Silas Kain
Marriage is defined in The Bible as a union between man and woman.
Then marriage should be unconstitutional because it is defined in religious terms.
However, marriage should be a integral part of our societal structure. It keeps families together; establishes parental authority and accountability; and, it is an incorporation of two people as an entity. There has to be a separation between civil and religious distinctions. A Roman Catholic annullment does not necessarily translate into a civil annullment. Non-Catholic Christians seem to have no problem creating and supporting that dividing line. We're a pick and choose society when it comes to religion. If one adheres to a system of beliefs that is not based in Abrahamaic traditions we encourage our society to discount that system. That's when the rights of the minority must be protected from the dictates of the majority. The same applies to 'gay' marriage. The problem is that the word 'gay' has become synonymous with something intrinsically evil.
6 - Song
Adam and Eve versus Adam and Steve?
Dfferences? Two things stand out.
1. They didn't have bellybuttons.
2. They could procreate.
Religion is not faith, it's contrived ceremony.
7 - Heidi
Lets get down to the facts, look at a womens body then at a mans, they fit together like a puzzel. Anything else that might be tried does not fit as well as it was intended to. Love is for everyone, man, women, children....but marriage a union between a male and female is jsut that for MALE and FEMALE. This country was built on relgion and relgion will always take part in the government no matter how hard anyone tries.
As for those who are living in sin (according to my beleifs) I will pray for you!
8 - billy
his country was built on relgion
how so? when it was specifically banished in the first amendment? you have been listening to too many jerry falwell speeches and had too much home schooling. you are confused and dont understand what our country is about.
9 - John A. Conley
Heidi -- This country was not built on religon. It was built on religous freedom, big difference.
10 - Winston Jen
And Heidi - I'll THINK for both of us.
11 - Heidi
First off I was not homeschooled and I do know what I am talking about. Our pledge to the flag says and will forever say "UNDER GOD" We are under God then and we still are. We do have freedom I belive that, however there are certian rules we need to follow. When wil you stop all this sin, will oneday you want to marry a pig should you be allowed b.c. you are FREE???
And on a side note one of my very best friends is gay....I can hate the sin but love the sinner....He knows how I feel and I voice it often, but our friendship begain when he also belived it was a sin, he has pulled hiself away from GOd adn I will pray to my dealth bed that he will return to his father.
God Bless
Heidi
12 - Heidi
A comment to Song...can you explain more on what you said about Relgoion not beign Faith? I am not sure how you came to that conclusion but I would like to hear that one.
13 - Heidi
A comment to Song...can you explain more on what you said about Relgoion not beign Faith? I am not sure how you came to that conclusion but I would like to hear that one.
14 - Silas Kain
When wil you stop all this sin, will oneday you want to marry a pig should you be allowed b.c. you are FREE???
Balderdash. One does not result in the other. The problem here is that there are thousands of same sex couples across this nation that you don't hear about, Heidi. These are the ones that are building and have built wonderful lives complete with children, a diverse circle of friends and yes, even God in their lives. They don't get involved in the public debate because they're too busy raising their families and fulfilling their dreams.
Is it a sin to be so in love with another person of the same sex? Is it a sin to live a productive, healthy life that hurts no one around them? Is it a sin to raise children in a loving, nurturing environment where they learn tolerance, respect and unconditional love? The 'hate the sin, love the sinner' concept is a complete joke. When a Christian uses that line, they are immediately casting judgement on the sinner.
Your best friend may think he's lucky to have you in his life. He may even think that he's blessed that you love him no matter what sin he commits. I submit that your friend is in denial. He fails to realize that you have judged him a sinner by virtue of his being gay. You haven't looked at the whole picture. And, in the end, you have violated one of Christ's greatest messages which was, judge lest ye be judged.
Gay couples, as a rule, face far greater hurdles in building and maintaining a relationship. This naturally occurs because of the societal pressures upon them. Whether you accept this or not the bottom line is that successful gay couples who stay committed to each other until death probably have a hell of a lot more character and morals than 75% of the straight couples who marry today. Gay couples have become programmed to face adversity and work together to overcome the obstacles. In our culture when something goes wrong in a marriage it is off to divorce court. Gay couples have the freedom of just walking away from each other and many don't. They ride out the storms and work to make their relationships stronger. That takes guts. That takes work. That takes the ability to accept the good with the bad. That's something a fundamentalist Christian heterosexual is incapable of achieving.
15 - Danny
First of all, for those who argue semantically that "marriage" is defined in the bible, let me remind you that the Bible wasn't written in English, and nor was the Catholic church founded in English, so there's no way that that particular construction of letters is sacred in any way.
What this means is, "civil union", "civil marriage", "marriage", "domestic partnership", etc. are all equally non-Christian terms. They are not all equally legal terms, however. Therefore, until gay marriages are equal to straight marriages, including in name, homosexuals are being subjugated as 2nd class citizens. Argue all you want about the "sanctity" of marriage, but if you want the early Christian church's sacred word, you'll have to learn latin, and if you want the even earlier word, as written by those who compiled the Bible, you'll need Greek or Hebrew to help you out. Leave english words alone. They're all pagan anyhow.
2nd point, regarding the words "under God" in the pledge of allegience. Your parents (or depending on your age, and for Heidi I'm guessing it's your grandparents) did NOT learn to say "Under God" when they learned the Pledge as children. Why not? because it wasn't added in until the mid-20th century (1954), some 60 years after the pledge was first written (1872).
16 - John A. Conley
Well said Danny. Bravo!
17 - Heidi
YES all that is a sin if done in a same sex union.
As for my friend he does know I consider him a sinner, he was planning on being a minister one day and then turned against GOd to be gay.
God hates what this world is coming to. He gave us free will and we ran with it. No person can read the Bible and thnk that GOd does not disaprove.
I am not judgeng them, I am not saying that they will or will not go to Heaven. I am just stating that their life style is a sin in GOd eyes. I could careless what they want to do. However that is the wrong way to think, b.c. I should be a testment to everyone. I do try, I will never dismiss someone b.c. they are gay, But I CAN have my opionion!
18 - billy
God hates what this world is coming to. He gave us free will and we ran with it. No person can read the Bible and thnk that GOd does not disaprove.
how the hell do you know. do you talk to gods? have you seen him. i sure havent bewcause he is just a figment of your imagination.
who cares what sick twisted religion you believe in, that has no relevance to someone else. stop preaching to them jerk.
19 - kittygogo
Hey, I've got an idea - if you don't want to be in a gay marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex. On the same note, if you don't like abortion don't have one. Beyond that, I don't see that it is anyone's damned business what people do to themselves. MYOB!!!
What a load of crap is organized religion.
20 - Heidi
Look BILLY, back off, that was rude....AND to answer your question I have talked to GOD, everyday. He has worked wonders in my life, I am where I am now b.c. I belive. I am successful in school, I am married with two wonderful children. Life is good!
21 - Scott Butki
If God says to love thy neighbor and not to commit adultry why is he/she:
a) against gays and lesbians loving each other and
b) why are organized religions not as
outraged by heterosexuals having affairs and out of marriage sex as they are about gays having sex and/or relationships?
22 - billy
I have talked to GOD, everyday.
maybe so, but he doesnt talk back, so dont claim to speak for him. he is a figment of your imagination in my opinion.
maybe you are doing great, im glad for you, but give yourself some credit, not some imaginary friend.
ethics and morals existed WAY before your bible was concocted.
this country has nothing to do with christianity, "under god" was inserted 50 years ago by religious nuts at the fraternal order of the eagles, and it shouldnt have been.
the word god does not appear in ANY founding docs of american law, in fact the only reference to religion is the 1st amendment, banishing it forever away from govt. that isnt rude. thats a fact.
23 - Steve S
Generically speaking, if you as a voter, would vote away recognition of my family because it does not fit in with your biblical belief, but you do not then follow all the tenets of the bible, shunning makeup, pigskin, not working on the sabbath, burning oxen in your backyard, the whole bit, then screw you for trampling over my rights with complete hypocrisy. And if I go to hell, I will see you there, of that, there is no question.
24 - John A. Conley
As I said in the post,"I have never really gotten the argument against gay marriage. A lot of what I hear is that it somehow invalidates marriage between a man and a woman. When I ask why, I never get a logical rebuttal based on law and the U.S. Constitution." This argument is just another example of how the right turns this issue into a religious issue every single time because they know the law should allow same sex marriage.
25 - John A. Conley
Let me revise my remarks, "...the law should allow same sex marriage." I should've pharsed that better. The law has NO legal basis to strike down same sex marriage.