An ignorant southern politician puts her foot in her mouth, using faulty information to brand hate crimes bill a hoax.
According to court testimony, in the months leading up to October of 1998, Russell Henderson and Aaron McKinney lived with a friend named Tom O’Connor. Tom intimated to McKinney’s girlfriend that he’d had sex occasionally with her boyfriend, and thought he was bisexual. Despite O’Connor’s later sworn statements in court to the contrary, McKinney denied having sex with him. After months of suffering taunts and denials, McKinney became anxious to prove his macho manhood and decided that a good old-fashioned “fag bashing” might just fill the bill.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Arch Conservative
The notion of hate crimes is rediculous because it implies that a crime committed against someone is somehow worse when then perp (that's the person who committed the crime for those of you who aren't as up to speed on law enforcement lingo as I am) was motivated by hatred based on race, sexual orientation, religion or some other unique characteristic of the victim. If a someone murders a straight man is that any less a tragedy or crime than if a gay man is murdered?
It's not that I believe we should ignore the motivations of the perp or perps as in the Matthew Shapard case, it's just that with all the other issues our government should be addressing I don't see the need to enact legislation that states the severity with which we should consider a crime should be based on the motivation of the offender. Murder is murder and should be treated with the same whether the vic (some more law enforcement lingo meaning victim) is black, white, male, female, gay, straight, christian, jewish or even a whacked out scientologist.
Before Jet gets his panties in a bunch let me just add that I do believe there is great value in bringing to light the motivations behind such brutal crimes as the Matthew Shepard case in the public arena. It should be mentioned on the six o'clock news, printed in your local newspaper and talked about at the water cooler on Monday morning. It should be discussed so that others may possibly be saved from their own vile ignorance that makes them think it's OK to mistreat, harm or otherwise abuse another human being because they happen to be gay, or black etc....
It is irrational hatred based in stupidity and ignorance that causes some to do what was done to Matthew Shepard but the motivation is more a cultural matter than a legal matter other than as Clavos said...to actually establish motive to prove a crime was committed.
It's just that leftists are in love with victimization politics that they feel the need to enact these laws and they will no doubt portray those of us that oppose them as not giving a damn when things like the Matthew Shepard murder happen.
27 - Jet Gardner
Back in 1924 my grandfather (a black man) and my grandmother (a white woman) got married in Kentucky.
It must've been one hell of a love for them to risk the consequences.
They were beaten, harrassed, their house was torched and he was dragged out and beaten more than once. Their tormentors got away with their acts repeatedly, because there were no laws specifically designed to protect them.
Eventually he was jailed for that hanus crime of marrying her.
After a few years, laws were put on the books protecting interracial couples from being the victims of hate crimes. If they hadn't, the illegal beatings and arson were considered justifiable by the locals as punnishment against folks they considered immoral and against "God's" will that the races shouldn't mix. In other words the minority needed protection against the majority.
Nowadays, interracial couples are everywhere and no one bats an eye, but back then...
Nowadays ingnorant people used the same passion and bible towards gays that used to be used against my grandparents, and they deserve the same protections until gay couples are accepted as being no more horrid than anyone else.
Back then interracial marriage would never be considered something that'd ever become normal in the future; it was inconceivable.
I don't see why that's so hard to understand.
28 - Jet Gardner
As for additional penalties, it's simple. When a life sentence can be paroled in 20 years or less, you have to add stuff to keep people from getting out before they deserve to.
That's why criminals are sentenced to 3-4 consecutive life terms in some hanus cases.
29 - Jet Gardner
I hope you guys know that, that "last page" button only works in groups of 20 and that you have to hit next page to see whats beyond that.
That means once we get above 40, even though there's 45 or so comments "Last page" will only take you to 40 no matter how many times you hit it.
30 - Clavos
Their tormentors got away with their acts repeatedly, because there were no laws specifically designed to protect them.
No, Jet, there were laws, even back then against assault, arson, etc. The only difference between then and now is that the laws then were not enforced, due to racial prejudice; it's a difference in attitude, not in the applicable laws, that is needed.
What those guys did to Matthew Shepard was already illegal; passing additional laws marking their acts as "hate crimes" won't mean that the a homophobic murderer or assaulter or arsonist will be more zealously prosecuted and sentenced than a husband who kills his wife in a jealous rage. The crime (and the harm to the victim) is the same.
31 - roger nowosielski
Well, what is the up-to-date legal theory on "aggravation" factor, Clavos? I don't buy into the deterring element, but I'm not certain how to think about the former. The legal practice of late seems to recognize the first - e.g, the difference between committing a robbery and committing a robbery while possessing a firearm.
32 - Jet Gardner
Clavos, I believe you missed the part where I wrote:
After a few years, laws were put on the books protecting interracial couples from being the victims of hate crimes. If they hadn't, the illegal beatings and arson were considered justifiable by the locals as punnishment against folks they considered immoral and against "God's" will that the races shouldn't mix. In other words the minority needed protection against the majority.
33 - Clavos
That means once we get above 40, even though there's 45 or so comments "Last page" will only take you to 40 no matter how many times you hit it.
Not true, Jet, don't spread misinformation. Though awkward and inconvenient, the last page button will take you to the next set of twenty comments, whether there are 45, 65, 74 or 85 comments. Both of Dan(Miller's) current comment threads have exceeded the 40 comment level, and in both, the high number comments are visible with the last page button.
34 - Christopher Rose
I like this idea of the US state killing people who have killed.
Indeed, I think we should extend the idea. Let's rape rapists, burn arsonists, steal from thieves, force drugs upon dealers and so on. After all, the punishment should fit the crime...
35 - roger nowosielski
There also seems to be a pitfall when it comes according sentences strictly by virtue of the objective fact, i.e., the crime committed, e.g., as a result of murder. We all know that other factors come into play - e.g., was it premeditated or on the spur of the moment, planned well in advance or in the heat of passion. So these considerations argue against sentencing as based on nothing other than "the objective fact."
36 - Clavos
Clavos, I believe you missed the part where I wrote:...
I didn't miss it, Jet. You missed my explanation of why those laws were unnecessary; all that was needed was for the existing laws to be enforced, which only comes with a change of attitude on the part of society. Without that change in attitude, the new (hate crime) laws would also have been ignored.
37 - Jet Gardner
When we reached 20 here Clavos, "last page" would only take me to 20 and no further. I had to hit "next 20 comments" to read 20-29.
That's not misinformation, that's fact.
38 - Clavos
Last page will take you to the last page, Jet. Fact.
What you're saying IS misinformation.
39 - Jet Gardner
From your mouth to God's ear Chris. amen, it'd be one hell of a deterrant.
40 - Jet Gardner
I remember the good old days when you could just hit "end" on the keyboard to get to the last comment on an article.
It was a simpler and calmer time.
sigh
41 - Clavos
Agreed, Jet, and hopefully we'll see those days again -- we've requested it from the tech guys.
42 - Clavos
Ok, Jet, my last comment was #41. I just hit last page and it took me right here.
43 - Jet Gardner
I am wrong-and glad of it. Apparently one of those notes I posted on the editor's page took and the fixed it, because it didn't used to work.
kudos Clavos
I'm always happy to admit an error
44 - roger nowosielski
Well, Jet. Since they're still working on it, it's not a stable environment and occasionally you do run into problems like having to input your name and url. It WAS a problem half an hour ago, but apparently no longer so for the time being.
45 - Clavos
Even techies have to rest once in a while (one can drink only so much Jolt cola), so they're taking the weekend off, but on Monday, they'll be hard at work again, so we'll continue to see bugs resolved and improvements made.
46 - Jet Gardner
However if you want to reference a comment younger that just five minutes ago, you can't scroll up to read it without some button pushing.
In one of my rants, I mentioned that on the next re-design (no matter how pretty) they should give the writers (like we're doing now) a week to tear it apart and fix before releasing an only partially working version for the general public to see.
I realize we had to rush it in order to release all those articles on Obama's first 100 days in the new format... but...
I love the graphics and the design, it's the execution that sucks.
47 - Dr Dreadful
The point in a case of 'hate' murder is that there's an additional and very specific violence being perpetrated on top of the actual homicide. That needs to be recognized by the law.
Clav, in your acting days did you ever take part in or see a production of The Laramie Project? Our local university drama department staged it a couple of years ago. It's a unique piece of documentary theatre compiled from actual eyewitness accounts, interviews and court transcripts regarding the Shepard murder.
It's one of the most powerful pieces of theatre I've ever watched. I would highly recommend everyone to go and see it if a production of it comes on in your area.
...
And finally (I can't believe Clav hasn't caught this yet):
Jet - heinous
Doug - faux pas
[strolls away whistling and dusting off hands]
48 - Clavos
I believe the name problem came about because they decided they needed to remove the "//http:" that showed previously in the URL box (because not every commenter has a website), so what I think happened is they just wiped them all out, and we'll have to insert our names on the first comment we make on each thread we participate in, until all of the threads recognize us once more. Notice that the http is now gone.
49 - Jet Gardner
#45 Clavos, I believe I mentioned that about 10 comments previous, and I understand
50 - Jet Gardner
D'oh ahhhhhh he got me, the doc got me. I'm dying, I'm........
51 - Jet Gardner
Now if only we could get them to put the damned last page button near or on the top instead of the bottom of the page?
52 - Jet Gardner
There is a link just beneath my article here to purchase either the script or the DVD of the Laramie Project-it is excellent and I highly recommend it.
53 - Clavos
However if you want to reference a comment younger that just five minutes ago...
True to the extent that, if the comment you want is not in the current group of 20 (sounds like a ChiCom government ruling junta), you must hit "previous 20 comments" first. otherwise, you can just scroll.
As I said, awkward and inconvenient.
Now if only we could get them to put the damned last page button near or on the top instead of the bottom of the page?
For truly full functionality, I'd rather see it at both top and bottom. I'll pass it on.
54 - roger nowosielski
"The point in a case of 'hate' murder is that there's an additional and very specific violence being perpetrated on top of the actual homicide. That needs to be recognized by the law."
So do you view this "additional and very specific violence" that's being perpetrated on analogy with say the "quality" of motivation? And I'm not talking now about the atrocity of the act itself (e.g., eyes punctured or ears cut off, as opposed to just shooting the guy) which is a separate matter (though it still informs of the motivation) but everything else being equal, that is?
55 - Clavos
Doc,
Haven't seen (or performed in) The Laramie Project. I'll watch for it.
I missed heinous, but saw "fopah." Everybody crawls up my ass for being the grammar/spelling Nazi, so I've started closing my eyes...
56 - Clavos
The point in a case of 'hate' murder is that there's an additional and very specific violence being perpetrated on top of the actual homicide.
Murder's murder.
That needs to be recognized by the law.
Obviously, I disagree. The victim is no more dead, and if we enforced our capital punishment laws better, neither would the perp be.
57 - Jet Gardner
Roger, if a man steals a car, are you saying he should suffer the same consequence because he stole a rusted out junker to syphon the gasoline in its tank as opposed to stealing say an ambulance that was about to leave on a run to save a life?
both cases are vehicle theft.
58 - Jet Gardner
Oh now this is interesting. I just hit "last page" and wound up with our regular page here, but where the comments should be was a blank white space with the words "Page not found"???
59 - roger nowosielski
I tend to agree, Jet, as you've seen from my earlier comments, that "objective fact" is not a sufficient factor, in and of itself, to determine the sentence. And so I disagree with Clavos here in that "murder is murder" is an oversimplification because not every murder is alike.
Your example is a bit far-fetched and I'm not very comfortable with it - though it makes a point in a way. I would be more comfortable talking here in terms of motivation (because ultimately the motivation informs the act itself and this principle is recognized in legal practice).
So I'm putting to you the same question I put to Doc (and forget about the deterrence factor for now): is "the additional and very specific violence" he talks about to be understood on analogy with telling us something over and above about the motivation involved? How else do you understand that? Because IF it does, then I'd tend to agree that it is a pertinent factor and worthy of consideration (insofar as motivation informs the act itself).
Am I making myself clear?
60 - Jet Gardner
...he talks about to be understood on analogy with telling us something over and above about the motivation involved? How else do you understand that? Because IF it does, then I'd tend to agree that it is a pertinent factor and worthy of consideration (insofar as motivation informs the act itself).
Am I making myself clear?
Uh... um
61 - Jet Gardner
Okay, I'm going to be gone a little while, I've gotten that "Page not found" for the third time and I'm going to post it on the editor's page for them to look at on Monday.
62 - Jet Gardner
Okay, I came back and last page only displays my comment 61 and my name and URL vanished again?
I could swear there used to be a "report a bug" button/link at the top of the page?
63 - Jet Gardner
I left for only an hour and it forgot my name and URL-this is getting old real fast.
64 - Cannonshop
8- They created it as a political football when they coined the term "Hate Crime". What these two scumbags did was aggravated, premeditated, capital murder. WHY they did it matters not one gods-damned bit except in proving motive, THAT they did what they did is the only thing that matters. That the System was so spineless as to give one a free pardon from execution for it shows just how weak our culture's become.
Luring someone out of town, robbing them, torturing them, killing them... that's the sort of action that is the reason we have inventions like the Gas Chamber, Electric Chair, Lethal Injection and the Rope.
65 - roger nowosielski
Well, Cannon. But that's precisely my point. What exactly do you mean by "aggravated"? The idea of "hate crime," it seems to me, works to specify or enlarge upon the meaning of "aggravated" crime.
66 - Jet Gardner
Thanks Cannon, however the point of the piece is that Foxx maintained (until corrected) that the "hate" part of the crime was a hoax in order to sell the legislation. The fact that they intentionally targeted a gay guy in order for McKinney to prove he really wasn't a fag is.
She believed a few websites similar to the ones that said the holocaust never happened, and rather than checking her facts about the Shepard case, she ran her mouth off like a fool.
67 - Ruvy
Jet,
I hate to say this, but I tend to agree with Cannonshop in his comments about the fact that "hate" crimes are a bullshit category. This was premeditated murder, and the bastards should have been hung by the balls, if not by the neck. However, I live in a country that has hate crime legislation on the books. When Arabs call for the death of Jews in Israel, the bastards get off scot free. When Jews where so much as a t-shirt saying "no Arabs, no terror" they are arrested for incitement (what hate crimes are called here).
That is what will happen increasingly in the States, especially now that the "Blessed of Hussein" is in power. His slant on what constitutes a hate crime will be the official slant and justice will not be pursued impartially.
Nevertheless, I agree with you that the "honorable" congresswoman from Virginia deserves to be booted out of office for her stupid and false comments.
68 - Jet Gardner
As I've said before Ruvy, Hate Crime only adds another layer of time to an existing sentence to make sure these two jerks and the like-minded followers won't be paroled early.
That's why additional time is tacked on other crimes, like against cops, so that two or three life terms are served consecutively.
That way if they're paroled early on one, they still have to serve the "hate crime" time in order to be eligible for another parole twenty years later.
FOR THE LAST TIME OBAMA IS NOT MUSLIM
69 - Ruvy
FOR THE LAST TIME OBAMA IS NOT MUSLIM
I never said the man is a Moslem, did I? Barak Hussein means 'blessed of Hussein'. That's a translation of the Arabic, Jet, a language I have to have some familiarity with. And this is the name his Moslem father gave him. And to put is it bluntly, whatever he alleges his faith to be (Moslems claim him because his father is/was a Moslem), his politics are anti-Israel.
70 - zingzing
now republicans are against hate crime legislation? what the fuck is wrong with you people?
and doug, what's a "fopah?" you making up words now?
71 - Jet Gardner
It's one of the cloptzers that straight people use Zing.
72 - Jet Gardner
Ruvy, Obama is about as anti-Israel as you are Anti-American... wait, let me rephrase that
73 - roger nowosielski
same logic, zing, which prompts them against gun legislation: the existing laws should be enforced, that's all. It's simply a matter of sticking to their guns. Anything that smacks of "progress" - a dirty word in their vocabulary - ought to be fought in earnest. That's the essence of conservatism - cherish the old, distrust the new.
74 - Jet Gardner
Roger, you forgot wave the Bible and worship the Confederate flag.
75 - Jet Gardner
All right I give up, HOW are you people tracking multiple comments across different articles without a lot of ctrl D'ing?