The new hate crimes bill makes a mockery of the rule of law.
Since I wrote about the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009 earlier this week, I've had an opportunity to help write a press release on the issue for the Republican Liberty Caucus, and made it the subject of my latest Poolside Chat video (see below). In the process I spent a lot more time looking over the legislation and found even more to be worried about. The original complaint remains the same. Hate crimes laws like this destroy the idea that everyone is equal under the law. The first truth held to be self-evident in our Declaration of Independence is that "all men are created equal," but when you start dividing them into groups and giving those groups special legal protections you are making some more equal than others. That's not equality at all. It's the tyranny of privilege in the service of political correctness.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Jet
Now wait a minute Zing, I thought you hated women and it was Ruvy's turn to hate America?
I guess that's what I get for missing staff meetings...
27 - roger nowosielski
Who accused you of that? Can't see the comment.
28 - Jet
Roger! I'd think it was obvious-even to you-if you disagree with Dave, it follows that you hate America.
29 - zingzing
oh yeah... women... ok, america's alright compared to them bitches. yuck! god, i can't get the taste out of my mouth. gonna gargle with a little baby's blood here... hold on... ok. that's better. now what? oh yeah... women... gah! there's that taste again. every damn time i put one in my mouth it's just... feh. how i hate them.
but i love them...
roger, no one accused me of hating america, at least on this thread. it was a joke. all dems hate america, don't you know that? ask a republican. they can see into the hearts of all men with stunning clarity. my heart, they tell me, is black.
anyway, i picked on dave's video. jet asked if it was a hate crime to hate on dave's video. clavos said what he said and i said what i said. dave's an american. and i, according to republicans, hate americans. (kind of like ruvy.) therefore, if i pick on dave's video because it's american... it's convoluted and it didn't really work out. but it's there if you look hard enough. still not very funny though.
30 - roger nowosielski
"all dems hate america, don't you know that? ask a republican. they can see into the hearts of all men with stunning clarity. my heart, they tell me, is black."
That's for sure. It's their number one premise. That's one reason, BTW, why all discussion is futile. We're just jerking each other off, without ever cuming.
Piss-poor sex, to say the least.
31 - Jet
I... uh... no, never mind
32 - Baronius
In that case, Zing, your comment makes less sense. You say that crimes commited with "hateful (racial, sexual-identity based...) motives" should be punished more, but you give no reason why.
33 - roger nowosielski
I sense a feeling of frustration.
34 - roger nowosielski
Jet,
We still need the "Fresh Comments" section streamlined to reflect only the Politics, or whatever other section you're perusing.
Have you raised this with our esteemed editors?
35 - Jet
The editors are a little cranky right now, but yes, it's been brought up several times.
It'd sure's hell make life easier for everyone. I'm more interested in getting the e-mail notifications for posted comments on older articles reactivated.
SOME NEW VISITOR MIGHT THINK I'M IGNORING HIM AFTER HE ASKED A SERIOUS QUESTION ON MY DIABETES ARTICLE BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW IT'D BEEN POSTED
I know calm
calm
Ahhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmm
36 - roger nowosielski
Good point. You said there's a way of getting around that by subscribing to RSS feeds. Would that work?
37 - roger nowosielski
Anyways, I feel greatly relieved for having thrown extra baggage off my shoulders. It's been draining me with no sight of resolution. It's done!
38 - zingzing
baronius, that's what the argument here is, isn't it? (but how does my comment make less sense now?)
hate crimes do more than just affect the victim. they are designed to scare members of the victim's social group. like the guy who was killed in a nightclub for being gay... the intended message was that "gays aren't welcome here."
say a white man (like you, but not you,) was killed in a nightclub in a black neighborhood, just for being white: white people shouldn't come here. or say a black man looked at your sister and, because he's black, you kill him: black men shouldn't look at my sister.
hate crimes also tend to cause riots and destruction, especially when they aren't properly handled.
this legislation needs to be carefully worded, so as always to punish the action, not necessarily thought, but when the action has intended consequences far beyond the scope of normal murder, that needs to be taken into account. (that kind of thing is also very hard to prove, and that's how it ought to be.)
also, those who commit hate crimes should also be forced to wander around like pedophiles, telling everyone in the neighborhood they might kill you if you're the wrong color.
39 - roger nowosielski
Very good reasoning, zing. I like especially your analogy to pedophiles. I suppose there's no objection here from the conservative community, because Megan law reinforces the Christian values. But why should they object to similar such treatment when the crime is against gays or people of color. You tell me!
And Ruvy accused you of being deficient in legal reasoning.
40 - Jet Gardner
"But why should they object to similar such treatment when the crime is against gays or people of color."
Roger, you've asked and answered your own question-kudos to the maximum in efficiency
41 - roger nowosielski
Well, I'm doing my best, Jet, to try to impart some light on the uneducated and the ignorant. (Reminds me of Samuel Jackson's like in Pulp Fiction - I should use it more often to strike at the wicked, with the equalizer! And don't think I'm not tempted to be the shepherd!)
Anyways, I'm running out of resources, but at times, the inspirations strikes.
Thanks.
42 - roger nowosielski
Should be "line."
43 - Clavos
also, those who commit hate crimes should also be forced to wander around like pedophiles...
In Miami, we don't let 'em wander, we make them all live under a bridge -- waterfront living at its best.
44 - roger nowosielski
Is is anywhere to where you're berthed?
45 - roger nowosielski
Like a bunch of nomads - the wondering Jew syndrome. Ruvy should be ecstatic.
46 - Clavos
Is is anywhere to where you're berthed?
No, I'm allowed to live with the decent people -- I'm offensive, but not sexually, just in my politics and my manner.
47 - roger nowosielski
I was just kidding, Clav! I looked at the link you provided. Too bad there aren't any pictures.
48 - Clavos
@47:
Here's a video, Roger.
49 - roger nowosielski
Thanks.
50 - roger nowosielski
Shoot, Clavos. Compared to the Philippines, it's Ritz-Carlton. And obviously they're not starving because the four-legged criters are still around.
51 - Clavos
They're being treated better than they deserve, IMO...
52 - zingzing
well, that's nice, clavos. they kind of do the same thing by sticking all the racists in texas... oh, no they don't. damn it. texas: the hate crime penal colony. it's a dream.
53 - roger nowosielski
Still a damn shame. With all the money in the stimulus package, one would think they could allocate a shelter to house mere 50 some people.
54 - roger nowosielski
Can you imagine, zing, being locked up with people of a like mind? A convict's dream.
55 - roger nowosielski
Perhaps we should set up a reservation. Give them a fucking state for all I care. Oklahoma would be fine with with. Then they could finish one another off.
56 - Dave Nalle
How many ways are planning to publish the same article?
Four?
Dave
57 - Dave Nalle
dave, if you don't want to look like some awful, privileged republican, espousing ideas about how the white man is constantly put upon, for heaven's sake, DON'T call it your "poolside chat." it's fuckin' hi-larious, really. poor man.
Zing. I live in Texas. Even poor people have pools, either above ground behind their trailer, or in their apartment complex.
i'm not saying you ARE a racist, but you could read between the lines and find that. you could also find the middle aged man with nothing better to do than laze about the pool and think about his conspiracy theories.
Conspiracy theories? What conspiracy theory would that be? The concerns in this article are pretty far from far fetched or speculative.
calling the legal system "equal" is also a fucking joke, and i think you know that. but... i think if murder/assault is based on hateful (racial, sexual-identity based...) motives, it should incur extra punishment. that said, it should work both ways. if a white man beats up a black man just because he's black, a black man who beats up a white man just because he's white should get the same punishment.
Why? Explain your reasoning. Is the dead guy any deader because the person who killed him was of anothe race?
if this bill starts listing off groups who get special attention, then i think that's a bad thing. but it doesn't. everyone is still equal under the law. if you're worried that it will target white people, i guess you admit that there is a racial bias in our law system. and i guess you only get worried about it when this bias could affect you. which is troubling.
I don't give a rat's ass who it targets for special privileges or for special punishment. I just want people treated the same.
Dave
58 - roger nowosielski
"the hate crime penal colony"
The entire state of Texas qualifies, don't you think, zing?
59 - roger nowosielski
zing,
I'd bring up the pedophile argument (or any crime against humanity). Why aren't pedophiles treated as equal once they paid their dues to society?
This should constitute a violation, then, of "the equal treatment under the law" principle.
60 - Clavos
well, that's nice, clavos.
They are convicted sexual predators, zing.
Scum. Animals.
But, maybe some "haters" will come along and lob a Molotov into their little "community."
I'd love to sit on that jury...
61 - Clavos
With all the money in the stimulus package, one would think they could allocate a shelter to house mere 50 some people.
Money (or the lack thereof) isn't the reason they're there, Roger. It's because the areas ruled (by law)off limits to them are so large (the areas are centered around where kids congregate, such as schools, plus a large radius around the school, etc.), that they overlap, leaving only the middle of Biscayne Bay (which is where the bridge is, in the middle of a causeway crossing the bay) as an area where they are allowed to live by law.
62 - roger nowosielski
Well, Clavos. But in that case, I'd say that hatred is blind as regards who are the victims. Women and minorities, in that vein, are somewhat like children and defenseless - though I'm aware that I'm stretching the analogy.
63 - Clavos
Sorry, Roger, I have no idea what you mean in #62.
64 - roger nowosielski
But how in that case can you control their movement? They surely have a freedom of movement.
65 - roger nowosielski
Well, crime against minorities and/or women may be looked at with the same lens as against the children - regardless of the differences in kind or degree.
66 - Clavos
They surely have a freedom of movement.
They're all wearing ankle GPSs, but yes, during the day, they can go to work (some of them, maybe most, have jobs), go grocery shopping, etc. They just can't live within X number of feet of a school, playground, park, etc., and they are subject to a (I believe) 10 PM curfew and must be back under the bridge by then. The police and their POs regularly come by and check on them.
67 - roger nowosielski
I'm done for today. I'll take your response tomorrow. Perhaps I express myself more clearly in #39.
68 - Dr Dreadful
I'd love to sit on that jury...
Think you just disqualified yourself, Clav...
69 - Ruvy
I see that none of you decided to actually discuss Dave's article, except Dee way up at comment 3 or so.
1. Jet, take a lesson from Dave in how he milks a subject to death. It's a great writer's trick.
2. No matter how you look at this, "hate crimes" legislation is a bad idea. This is because some groups get favored and others don't, and who gets favored is a matter of politics, not justice.
3. Stick the profit motive of continued budgeting under the wheels of a corrupt concept, and you ensure its continuance, like Dave's most appropriate example, the Fugitive Slave Act.
4. Finally, as I live in a country that has "hate crimes" legislation on the books, the blunt fact of the matter is that they never get enforced equally. Arab Israelis can riot and scream "kill the Jews!" and nothing will happen to them. A Jew who wears a T-shirt saying "no Arabs, no terror" will get locked up, and the judges will throw away the key.
I realize the so-called liberals (and the drunks) on this site don't want to read the truth or hear facts, but laws like this only encourages a fascist regime of "liberally oriented" political correctness.
And the Blessed of Hussein is slowly grinding your freedoms to death while you stand there like fools and argue bullshit.
70 - Clavos
And the Blessed of Hussein is slowly grinding your freedoms to death while you stand there like fools and argue bullshit.
True, Ruvy, but there's not a hell of a lot we can lawfully do about it until the next election.
71 - Ruvy
there's not a hell of a lot we can lawfully do about it until the next election.
You're a smart boy, Clavos. You don't need a law book to carry out the trash to the dumpster. 'Nuff said....
72 - Doug Hunter
The current sex offender system is a stupid travesty of justice. Too often it lumps statutory rape and indecent exposure (pissing on the side of the road when drunk for example) in with violent rapists and hardcore pedophiles. There is a girl who has been registered for 12 years for giving her classmate a BJ as a sophomore in high school (she turned 17 and he was 2 weeks shy of his 16th birthday) She shouldn't be forced to live under a bridge in squalor for the rest of her life. Neither should my wife's parents who started dating at 14 and 17 (that was quite common a generation or two ago) They shouldn't be outcast or forced to register or kicked out of there house. It lunacy and only a lunatic would support it in it's current state.
By all means take the man who fondles the 7 year olds in his elementary school, cut his nuts off and stick him under a bridge for life. But really, let's use some damn common sense in determining who is a sexual predator and who is a harmless youth out having a good time.
73 - Dave Nalle
As Ruvy points out, the core problem here is the enactment of a double standard into law. You can't have a valid justice system which uses one standard for one group of people and another standard for another group of people. It's Orwellian, elitist and tyrannical.
Dave
74 - zingzing
dave: "I live in Texas. Even poor people have pools, either above ground behind their trailer, or in their apartment complex."
that's not quite true. and the point still stands. i mean, do it wherever you please, but don't blame me for what it looks like.
"Conspiracy theories? What conspiracy theory would that be? The concerns in this article are pretty far from far fetched or speculative."
yes, that's true. but you're standing on a slippery slope.
"Why? Explain your reasoning. Is the dead guy any deader because the person who killed him was of anothe race?"
you're totally playing at being this ignorant. hate crimes aren't just about the victim, it's about telling other people of that victim's social group that they should be afraid. that's what makes a hate crime a hate crime. and it's not just "another race." come on. you can't even act this dumb. it doesn't make it a hate crime if a white man kills a black man, but if the white man killed the black man BECAUSE he was black, then it's getting there.
"I don't give a rat's ass who it targets for special privileges or for special punishment. I just want people treated the same."
what group does it give special treatment to? or special punishment. they actually go out of the way NOT to identify any group for privilege/punishment, but you must have missed that. it treats everyone the same except people who would hurt someone just because they're different. i think you're acting like a paranoid white man. you see "hate crime" and all you see is minority victims and white defendants. but that's not how it is.
"As Ruvy points out, the core problem here is the enactment of a double standard into law. You can't have a valid justice system which uses one standard for one group of people and another standard for another group of people. "
NAME ME THESE GROUPS. you'll notice that everyone is included.
75 - zingzing
ruvy: "You're a smart boy, Clavos. You don't need a law book to carry out the trash to the dumpster. 'Nuff said...."
aww, he just said someone should kill the president. ain't that sweet?
ruvy, just what freedoms is obama destroying? hmm?
"I realize the so-called liberals (and the drunks) on this site don't want to read the truth or hear facts, but laws like this only encourages a fascist regime of "liberally oriented" political correctness."
ruvy, you obviously couldn't tell a fascist from a tea kettle.