But again, I look upon it as a phase - a troubling one, no doubt - but nevertheless, a phase. It is a logical response to hundreds of years of sexual repression. On the whole, western society is mad for sex and violence. In a sense, we want it all. We want to see it, feel it, smell it and taste it. We want to experience the whole gamut of pleasure and pain. We want to wallow in its perversity. Ultimately, though, "civilized" society will get beyond it. It will likely take a while - at least several decades, more likely, a few centuries. But, should man survive, most of the perverse thrill of sex and violence may become passe', perhaps boring.
Humanity will not be doomed to hell for its sins. There is no hell - and certainly no heaven, no afterlife. No god. If we don't nuke ourselves out of existence, if we don't get wasted by an earthly collision with a giant comet, we may one day wake to find that we are well and happy, that we are whole, totally on our own, owing no allegiance to any god or other "higher power."
But in the mean time, anyone disturbed by the growing threat coming from radical fundamentalists of all stripes should be attentive and watchful. It was one thing to wage religious war in the days of swords and spears. It is quite another in an age when some true believer may have his nervous little finger on the nuclear button. The fundies, in their religious zeal, may rush us all to an end we didn't believe would or could happen.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Laer
Your misunderstanding of religion is overwhelming, so your commentary is meaningless.
You say the major religions cannot compromise and work together, yet you ignore that Christianity and Judaism, often viciously at each others throats -- first the Jews attacking the early Christians, then antisemitic trends in Christianity -- is now a thing of the past and the two religions are close and cooperative.
Within Christianity, we see no wars against sects. The various Protestant sects don't war with each other; heck, we don't even war with the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Protestants don't war with Catholics (Northern Ireland's troubles are over and were fundamentally political and economic in nature, not religious).
Islam stands apart; warring within itself (Sunni vs. Shi'ia) and warring against others (Islam against everyone else).
The fault with God's Warriors is that it minimized the evil carried out in the name of Islam and falsely attacked Christianity and Judaism by straining to find moral parity between their few and much-condemned terroristic warriors and the many and much-praised Islamic terroristic warriors.
2 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
What Laer said...
3 - Dr Dreadful
Laer, what a complacent crock of shit.
Christians and Jews are just as capable of fighting each other over "our God can beat up your God" as any other religion, including Islam.
You don't offer any substantiation for your assertion that Christians and Jews have buried the hatchet and don't fight among themselves. You might care to peruse some of the articles and comments of one of our BC contributors, Ruvy in Jerusalem, for a different perspective on that.
Northern Ireland's Troubles have been over for about 25 minutes and already you proclaim that peace reigns for evermore on the Emerald Isle. You may be right, but most of us would prefer to maintain some caution on the subject for the time being.
As for your claim that there is no intra-Christian warring in the world today, you might like to direct your attention to this charming little conflict in Uganda.
And I'd be delighted to see just a few citations for your fantasy that Islamic terrorists are "much praised" - by Baritone or anyone else who isn't also an Islamic fanatic.
Sure, the root of the vast majority of conflicts is economic. Religion is just used as an excuse. The current global "war on terror" is no exception.
4 - Dave Nalle
Within Christianity, we see no wars against sects. The various Protestant sects don't war with each other; heck, we don't even war with the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Protestants don't war with Catholics
Laer, what country do you live in? Surely not the US, where sects are constantly feuding and deriding each other in vicious competition for worshippers and the stamp of legitimacy.
As for the great struggle, it's not between the religious sects, it's between western secularism and ALL the fanatics, but particularly the muslims who remain more militant and expansionistic and exclusionary.
dave
5 - Zedd
Baritone,
Good article!
I think this same article can be written about any institution or engagement that human beings participate in.
It could be written about the scientific community, governments, sports organizations, humans in general. Its what we are. We are self consumed, wrong a lot, proud, needy, proud, and all of the things that cause us to have conflict.
People go to religion for a number of reasons. Many engage in order to feel right; more correct than everyone else. Many go to science for the same reasons. Again, the bottom line is where one's heart is, regardless of their engagement.
I wish that you would have left out the part about there not being a god and the rest. Your article sounded so profound and it declared your views about religion quite well. However your declaration sort of made you appear a bit zealous and a bit dogmatic; just as wacky and emotional as those who make all of the proclamations that make us loose respect for them.
The truth is you don't have proof for your major proclamation, no matter how certain you may be of your conclusions. You could have kept that part out and we would have gotten your point. Maybe that's what happens with the people that you disrespect. They say just a little too much.
6 - Dr Dreadful
Zedd, that last bit is a fair point. I don't know if you've seen, however, that Baritone has also posted the article on his own blog, which is much more strongly orientated around his atheist viewpoint - which BC, of course, is not. His argument is much more sound in that context. Perhaps he'd have done well just to reword it ever so slightly for its appearance here. It would have packed more punch.
7 - Christopher Rose
Laer, it's not hard to understand the one god cult. The three divergent branches all believe our universe was made by some longterm absentee superbeing and devote far more time than is healthy to worshipping this improbable being.
Your point about sect conflict was shallow and inaccurate. It not only ignored current events, it also failed to take into account that Islam is the youngest of the three one god cults and is currently going through the same kind of evolution as Christianity and Judaism did long since.
Ruvy, Ms Amanpour's series was impressively neutral, fascinating and informative, a real triumph of television journalism reporting.
Zedd, that's right, scientists, governments and sports organisations regularly go to war over crucial details like who was the "messiah" and who a mere profit (sic), although I am not sure where the "loans" come in ;-)
Oh, it's entirely not the case in my experience that people turn to religion and science for the same reasons, although I can understand why you would like that to be true.
Similarly, your desire that Baritone had left out the part about the non-existence of this ultimate creator is also as understandable as it is predictable and misguided. It made perfect sense in the context of the article and was not in the least zealous or dogmatic, simply realistic. We are well aware that realism is as much a stretch for you as speeling, lol.
For your edification, it is not necessary to disprove something that has never been proven in the first place. The onus of proof lies fully and uniquely with those who belief in the entirely unsubstantiated one god cult.
Doc D, maybe you believe Michael Owen is god, at least for today?
8 - Zedd
Chris,
That last tid bit in the article did not flow with the rest of its content. Calm down.
Again.
9 - Christopher Rose
Zedd, I think it flowed perfectly.
I am calm.
Please offer me advice again when you have a) learned to read b) learned to think c) stopped talking to people like they were children...
10 - Matthew T. Sussman
I saw the headline "God's Warriors" and I thought of the Mystery Science Theater 3000 episode "Cave Dwellers."
I have absolutely nothing more to add.
11 - Zedd
Chris,
I realize that when you are passionate about a subject matter you revert to being literalistic to a nearly embarrassing extent. Your persistence and your saner moments give you enough credibility to afford you somewhat of an answer. Was that condescending :o)?
Now here goes....
Humanity has gone to war for a number of reasons. Well before there was organized religion, humans fought. Whatever tool that will propel one to top dog status, we have used as a battle cry. Whether it is racial superiority (disguised as science a la Hitler and gang), religion, race and science (a la the founders of this great nation), cultural superiority (Brits, Zulus, and a great deal of others, accept it true about Zulus), we fight. We just do. Bin Laden isn't fighting because of Islam, he is fighting because he doesn't like the fact that in this time in history, the West is king. Period. He uses his faith because it is the most powerful reference to align himself with.
Now focus my goonie freind....
You may notice that with all monarchies and leaders of nations there is a tendency to create ceremonies which involve God directly or the dead. The dead somehow represent a line to eternity or infinity. In your country the monarchy used to claim a Divine placement to their post. Now they just simply place wreaths in the tombs of the departed and make a public spectacle of the event. They marry, and bury themselves at Westminster Abby. That need to be perceived as being linked or favored by the eternal is a power play. Those ceremonies do more to seal their place (in stealing your taxes) than any other address that they could give.
Chris, religion in such instances is but a tool that humans use like other tools to convince others of their correctness or selected state in order to secure power.
The fact that science was used to justify racism for hundreds of years doesn't mean that there is no science or that all scientists are corrupt. Be a big boy about this.
12 - Zedd
Doc,
I'm watching the Doctor Whooo-eee-ooo marathon. I've got to run errands and cant seem to pull myself away.
13 - vascodegama
Laer, you are gibbering. Christian sects don't war with other Christian sects?? What are you on, dear boy (or girl)?
Er, three centuries of trouble between Catholics and protestants (notice the lower case p, you pack of heathens :) probably indicates that's quite wrong. Right up until recently, the IRA and the protestant militias have been blowing the shit out of each other in the name of Christ. (Yes, the IRA is a political organisation ... a Catholic political organisation).
Please, get real.
14 - Zedd
Chris,
Would you care to correct vascodegama or will you choose the disingenuous route?
15 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I should have realized that the atheists and religion haters here at BC would take Ananpour's piece of trash and praise it as "neutral and a triumph of journalism."
For them it is a battle of pagans - what "secularists" really are and those who believe in G-d.
I have been sufficiently educated by these idiotic comments to see that the atheistic hellenistic pagans of the west are blind fools who will not see truth until it kills them - literally.
And the truth WILL kill them.
16 - Baritone
I'm not sure I'm ready to get into the fray, but why the hell not.
I've come to the conclusion that I pretty much like all the comments that agree with me, and, well,I'm not too crazy about those that don't.
Go figure.
Laer has been taken to task by a number of you.
One thing I would add, just so I can slap him (or her) around a bit more is this: It's true that most christians in the west, at any rate do not openly battle with each other in the streets. And, of course the movement toward ecumenism has been on-going for many years.
However, many fundies have in recent years been working to put a stop to this: They look upon the less fervent denominations as "liberal" (the word used in all of its pejorative glory) and not of the true faith. They are now taking a stand against ecumenism - no intermingling, no tolerance. As they see it, to do so is a sure path to hot foot territory.
A few years ago the great old fart His Holiness Pope John Paul II issued a proclamation that pretty much stated the same thing, warning catholics against believing that other faiths were on an equal footing with catholicism. In effect he stated that catholics could be nice with, say protestants, but in the end they were not to be invited into the same sand box.
Of course, my charge that christians and jews are ready to do physical violence has been supported by others here. It goes without saying that Israeli jews constantly match violence with violence against the Palestinians among others.
Ruvy and others will deny, but the violence there is essentially over a big rock - a supposed "holy" place. How much blood is that hot dusty wall worth? In all the fucking universe, is one actually to believe that a totally unremarkable bit of stone on this insignificant ball of clay is somehow special to some omnipotent, omniscient being who purportedly created the entire universe?
The same can be said for all of the supposed "holy" shrines of muslims, or of christians or any other religious traditions for that matter.
A couple of years ago I visited the bahai temple in Wilmette, Illinois. It's an impressive place. We walked in and sat in the nave. It was an almost surreal atmosphere there. So quiet. Reverent. We had to move on rather quickly, but I believe I could have stayed there for some time.
It is a beautiful edifice and a very peaceful place to spend a little time. Bahai's doubtless look upon it and their other temples as holy places. I don't.
I've been in Manhattan's St. John the Divine Cathedral and Vienna's St. Stephens Dome. They are magnificent, awe inspiring spaces. But holy? No. Hell, I even delivered an issue of Playboy to someone right on the alter at St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC many moons ago.
Again, go figure.
I also must in the end disagree with you Zedd. There isn't a fundie of whatever tradition who wouldn't stand on the highest roof top and shout for all to hear of their faith.
Why then is it thought "out there" for an atheist to say with the same conviction that there is no god? I understand that we are in a significant minority, but, hey, we're people too. In fact, if some of the numbers I've recently seen are correct, there are more atheists and agnostics in the U.S. than jews and muslims combined. Why should we be expected to be of less conviction or less vocal in our belief?
No, I cannot prove that god does not exist. But as Christopher so aptly put it "...it is not necessary to disprove something that has never been proven in the first place."
The evidence that god does not exist lay mainly in the lack of evidence that he (she,it) does.
Of course, it is far more difficult to prove a negative. All god need do to erase any doubt is to reveal him (her,it) self in such a way that there could, in fact, be no doubt. Figuring just how to do that shouldn't be any problem for one who happens to be omniscient, right?
B-tone
17 - Baritone
Ruvy does a fine job of proving some of my points.
B-tone
18 - Zedd
Baritone,
I stand firmly for the right of atheists and agnostics to speak and believe freely. I am totally against prayer in school. Its silly. I am against the "In God WE trust" on our money. I am against the use of religion in the pledge. The Texas pledge has just included a similar wording as that of the US pledge which is eye rolling. Creationism on the curriculum is just sad unless it is reviewed in literature.
I get your belief and support your right to believe as you do.
I personally am annoyed with religiosity. I get reverence for the Divine. I even get ritual. I didn't use to get it when I was young but now I really get it. Having been raised non denominational, I wasn't exposed to ritual in my youth and thought it to be ridiculous but I now get it. However I see how it can be a distraction in many instances.
I believe that belief is personal. Organized religion tends to distract from ones own personal journey. While it has good qualities, it is now more of a nuisance and an obligatory practice in order for one to prove their faith.
I don't think that one's faith in the divine causes wars. I think it is the human nature, our need to be top dog that makes wars an inevitability. Again, religion is just a tool for some to justify their greed for power and control.
19 - Baritone
Zedd,
I fully agree with you. Well, not so much about ritual and the divine. But otherwise, yeah, we're more or less on the same page.
Most wars and other human conflicts are brought on by greed and/or lust for power. It's always been that way. But it's very difficult for a king, queen or warlord or whoever to get the people behind him or her for the sake of making that king, queen or warlord richer or more powerful. In so many cases, it has and continues to be religious differences that are brought to the fore - the stricken match that provides the flame for war. As noted above, it's sometimes race, or nationalism that fosters the necessary hatred and zeal to come to blows. Sometimes its all those things.
I'm not sure about the science thing, though. Hitler's rise to power came via many sources, but racial hatred was at its core, at least with respect to what it took to get the masses motivated. They did use some pseudo-science to "prove" the inferiority of jews and other so called "mongrel" races, but science, per se was not what they were about.
Again, though, I don't apologize or shrink away from my position against the existence of god. In times past, I could have expected to be burnt at the stake for making such a pronouncement. Atheists have been kept silent for far too long. Just as with other segments of society, we are, for the most part not nut jobs or some kind of wierdos.
If you take a moment to check out my blog site you will see along the left margin an "Atheists Blogroll." There are literally hundreds of blogs that are in whole or in part dedicated to atheism or agnosticism. I've no doubt that there are exponentially greater numbers of blogs dedicated to some god or other. But the number of sites noted on the blogroll is rather astounding.
You might also check out another site, A Complicated Salvation. -http://acomplicatedsalvationreborn.wordpress.com/ It is a very well written site by a Canadian woman mostly concerned with the trauma she and her family experienced upon becoming disillusioned with and then leaving, first the church, and then religious belief altogether. Her blog name is Zoe, and she is a good, intelligent and sincere person attempting to relate the pain and difficulties she faced. It's a good read.
B-tone
20 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I haven't proven any of your points, Baritone.
MY big beef with Christine Ananpour's trash is not that she points out the dangers of "G-d's Warriors" but that she distorts Jews in Israel who believe firmly in messianic Redemption into something that we are not. But CNN has been doing that for a long time now. She only fits in with the mold.
I'm not interested in blowing you to bits. More to the point, I'm not interested in pushing my philosophy down your throat. For as long as Man is allowed to retain free will, you can believe whatever the hell you please and I will not be bothered one bit - so long as you keep your fingers off of my country, and my destiny.
What I AM telling you, and I'm telling you this with certainty, is that at some point soon, G-d will show up and fulfill His prophecies. Whether YOU believe that or not is irrelevant to me. Either you will see and be so scared by what you see that you'll shit your pants and believe - or you'll die. Either way, it doesn't make a difference to me, though I personally prefer that you shit your pants in fear and recognize Truth before it kills you.
What I say here goes for you and for all the other non-believers reading this. I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. I do not seek your deaths. I certainly do not seek your conversion. Judaism itself will change into something else - the Religion of the Children of Israel - before all this is over.
But that is not an issue here. The issue is this. At some point in the relatively near future, the only way you will even live is by recognizing and practicing the Seven Laws of Noah. That choice will be yours.
21 - Christopher Rose
Zedd, I would respond to your #11 but I realise that even though you use my name, in your own mind you're talking simplistic nonsense to a bunch of infants. If I were you, I'd just stick to parenting. If your swimming ability is of the same calibre as this, please don't ever leave the shallow end 'cos you're gonna drown!
#15 Ruvy, you just love making these pompous mystical statements, don't you? I reckon without your dodgy faith your ego would collapse. As usual, long on attitude, short on substance, which is par for the course for the rationally challenged.
#20 And there you go again, long on the pompous attitude and nothing to say. Ruvy, I've known you online a long time now and, when you're not talking about cults or politics you seem like a great bloke. Unfortunately you spend nearly all your time here talking about cults and politics.
I'd love it if you could actually put a specific date on all this mystical malarkey though. That way we could then get you to shut up about it until the glorious day arrives. Then, we could also show you what a load of mystical mantra you've swallowed.
You're not going to do that of course because, just like every other mad prophecer, it would then be so easy to disprove the theory and no faithist wants their con exposed.
C'mon, I dare you, put a date on this "relatively near future" of yours and then shut up about it 'til then. Rest assured, I won't forget that date.
22 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"And there you go again, long on the pompous attitude and nothing to say. Ruvy, I've known you online a long time now and, when you're not talking about cults or politics you seem like a great bloke. Unfortunately you spend nearly all your time here talking about cults and politics.
I'd love it if you could actually put a specific date on all this mystical malarkey though. That way we could then get you to shut up about it until the glorious day arrives. Then, we could also show you what a load of mystical mantra you've swallowed.
You're not going to do that of course because, just like every other mad prophecer, it would then be so easy to disprove the theory and no faithist wants their con exposed."
Chris,
You might want to look up the word "prophecer" - I know it's supposed to be a take-off on "professor", but I am no academic. The title "mad prophecer", if it belongs to anyone commenting on this board, belongs to DR. David Nalle, or DR. Marthe Raymond.
Now, as for the rest of your comments. I cannot tell you what I do not know. I can tell you what I do know. The changes I outline in comment #20 will all be done and over with, according to Talmudic scholars, by either 5786 or 5790. This means that it will be all over by the Christian years 2026 - 2030.
No, I'm not going to shut up about it, either. I'm not going to keep quiet about the story of the millennium, (that is the Jewish millennium, not the Christian one, the one that began in the year 5001 [autumn 1239], and that will end in the year 6000 [summer 2238]) the Redemption of Mankind. I'll let you guys concentrate on which firm is swallowing which brand new internet product, which sexual disease Paris Hilton has contracted, or which player Manchester United will drop. I have bigger fish to fry...
23 - Zedd
Chris,
Its unfortunate that you would intimate that parenting is an inferior engagement; one which doesn't require much intellect. More personal disclosure? TMA Chris. Its getting a bit uncomfortable.
I do also regret to say that it would be a struggle for me to remain on the shallow end. Never fear however I may toss you my kid's floaty, on loan for a small profit, so you can hang out with us big kids on the DEEP end.
24 - Zedd
Baritone,
I hope that you didn't read into my comments that I thought your statements required an apology. That would be odd of me.
You have submitted other articles and your views are clear. You have articulated your position much in the same way as a participant on threads as well. There was no surprise in the statements that you made nor were the statements revolutionary. I however just noted that that outburst at he end of your article didn't match the tone of the otherwise well written piece.
25 - Zedd
Baritone,
You must read the notes of early explorers. They used science as a justification for the subjugation of people around the world. They would utilize formulations to determine intellect and civility, measuring skulls and off course using their make up as the standard. Thomas Jefferson's intellectualizing about slaves was an attempt to give scientific explanation for the abuse of that population. Social Darwinism was used to justify why the haves had (power). Today many, including many on this blog actually buy the rubbish which is The Bell Curve. Many espouse the notion that intellect (not education mind you) is correlated with social status, because of bad science.