Global warming, debating beyond the logic not the science.
Global warming! A raging issue that has become one of the signature issues representing the metaphorical and philosophical divide fracturing America. On both sides the groups have sectionalized themselves off into factions that would make James Madison roll over in his grave. In the left corner the scientists and the environmentalist, railing against – what they see as – the further desecration of the natural environment and humanities pollution laden march to imminent apocalypse. In the right corner the Evangelical Christian Right and a few other patches of the Republican Party claiming that the science behind global warming is false and polluting the atmosphere does…no damage….to the Earth.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments226 - Andy Marsh
I don't blame you Cindy, I usually do the same! Go against what I'm thinking, I mean!
227 - Cindy D
lol! At least you have a sense of humor Andy.
228 - Christopher Rose
Andy, what's not in doubt is that the planet is getting warmer and that there are going to be significant changes and risks involved in that. Higher sea levels and more powerful and frequent hurricanes just for starters.
As to the thing you have in italics, two bits of it seem a bit vague, what is meant by the "foreseeable future" - next week, next year? and "catastrophic" - what do they mean by that? On that basis, I couldn't go along with the petition. It doesn't seem relevant that it has been signed by 31,000 scientists unless they were climatologists.
Similarly, the statement about possible benefits to plant and animal environments is pretty vague so it is hard to see exactly what they mean by that.
I also notice that the petition is against the Kyoto agreement, rather than saying that the planet is not warming up and I am a bit concerned about the assertion that "the proposed limits would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology and damage the health and welfare of of mankind", which seems to be both unproven and very vague.
In broader terms, the effects of everything we humans are doing on the planet is certainly having an effect on our one and only world and it can't be a bad thing to assess and review where those cumulative actions are taking us.
229 - Christopher Rose
Oh, your point about the weather is also not relevant, Meteorology and Climatology are very different disciplines.
230 - Andy Marsh
Cindy - I'm married and have two daughters, 23 and 19 years old, a sense of humor is required just to live!
And Chris, so, a meteorologist can't predict the weather this afternoon and a climatologist can't figure out what the weather was last week or will be in a year. They're both just guessing. I understand wanting to put all your stock in the words of folks that are supposed to be in the know, but it seems to me that they're just not in the know. I can't believe that no one remembers these same scientists screaming about global cooling 20 to 30 years ago. Now we're warming?! Nobody knows what the hell is going on!
How 'bout this...we cut out all nationalized health care around the world...any aid or anything like that...the population of the world might just drop to a workable number then the rest of us will be fine...
yeah yeah...chill out! I know some of the morons that read these comments might actually think I'm serious!
231 - Christopher Rose
Andy, I remember reading an article some time ago that basically said that the planet's natural ability to absorb crap meant we could litter and pollute the planet as much as we like - with a global population of 20 million.
Doubtless Ruvy will be along in a minute to tell us how those 20 million should be his God's chosen people and that everything going on in the world right now is that God's plan for making that happen.
As to the other stuff, it's not guessing, it's just making sense of things to the best of our abilities at the time. Our understanding grows over time, which is why yesterday's truth is today's wrong answer.
Would you prefer if we just didn't bother figuring stuff out and went to live in caves again? Hunting will be an in demand skill when there are just 20 million of us! ;-)
232 - Andy Marsh
Hey, I don't mind hunting....might enjoy fishing a little more though.
There's no doubt that oil is a dwindling resource and the world needs to get away from it. Thirty years ago when I visited Dammam, Saudi Arabia and took a tour of the Oil and Petroleum Institute there, they told us they figured only a little more than fifty years of oil lay beneath them.
But the other thing I remember even more than that was the beautifly, is that a word?, scaled out map of the middle east...it showed all the mountains and borders...really cool, like in a James Bond movie, all except for this one spot on the corner of the Med and the Red Sea...nothing but a spot painted black on the map...anyway...
Trying to scare people into believing we're killing our planet based on something that, whether you want to fess up to it or not, many legitimate scientists believe to be a bunch of flawed theories, is just wrong.
Yeah, going green is a good thing. I honestly believe that. It's only a matter of time until we have no choice anyway. It could even help stimulate this half dead world economy...it'll take money out of the hands of terrorists and turn the middle east into a bigger dust bowl than it already is even with all that money.
It'd be really cool to one day run a car off tap water. I've always wondered why just breaking down water wasn't the way to power an engine. I remember doing it in HS. Filling a test tube with hydrogen just using a lantern battery!
Nuclear power, the US Navy's been doing it for a long time.
But I'm all about that survival of the fittest theory too...I could live off the land if it came down to it. Not that I don't like my central heating and cooling too!
So really what I'm saying is that there are really better ways to convince me to go green...no need to blow smoke up my ass!
233 - Dan(Miller)
According to an article in Pravda, the world is about to enter an ice age. The article seems well thought out, and suggests at the least that there is not total unanimity in the scientific community as to MMGW.
However, we might be too preoccupied with the catastrophes caused by NASA predicted extreme solar activity expected around 2012, causing months of problems for the electric grid, communications, and just about everything else on which modern "civilization" depends. Oh well.
Dan(Miller)
234 - Clavos
...and more powerful and frequent hurricanes just for starters.
Every hurricane expert except Kerry Emanuel (who is a theoretical, as opposed to practical, hurricane specialist) disagrees with that.
235 - Franco
#212 " Dr Dreadful
"Your objections to the IPCC would have more weight if it was the only body taking a position supportive of the theory of MMGW. It isn't, by any means."
Doc, good point, although I never suggested it was the only body. The points were clearly (1) that the IPCC is the parent of MMGW/Kyoto, and (2) that their exclusionary practice of the other relative scientific disciplines was the objection/concern. But thank you for acknowledging at least point (2) carries some weight concerning at least the IPCC.
However point (1) as not been given adequate attention, in that the IPCC is the lead dog directly involved and responsible for implementing Kyoto treaty/mandates on all UN member states " “the world”.
Now that you have made mention of these other supporting bodies of MMGW/Kyoto theory outside the IPCC, it would be interesting to know how many of them also limit their science disciplines as the IPCC dose. If that were the case it surly would carry more weight as you point out.
However that is actually less important in knowing then it is to realize that even if many of them did include the other related sciences, the fact remains, how then are these other disciplines going to be properly analyzed by Kyoto's lead dog and thier 40-member (one discipline) review board at IPCC.
This concern is being over shadowed not only with dismissive comments from members of the public and unrelated academics, but also by the MMGW/Kyoto faithful out side the IPCC. However, as a whole, they share in the proclamation of MMGW/Kyoto end time’s prophecies that require immediate implementation of mandates or MMGW will be unreversible and we are all doomed.
This aggressive assertion in pushing aside anything that disagrees with the immediate Kyoto implementation has been and is being made by non-scientific persons, the general public and even the Hollywood screen actors guild, and riveted in blog opinion pieces as evidenced here.
This urgency is curiously strange when everything is based on a theory this is vague at best.
The IPCC and their MMGW/Kyoto body faithful have pressured the world to sign on the dotted line now or it may be too late. It is like being subjected to a high-pressure salesman who is selling bomb shelters and survival goods who must keep pushing down your questions and inquiries over its high cost and real necessity as unimportant details in light of the overwhelm benefits of the product should you need them. I believe both our earth and the people on it deserve far better salesmanship then that.
236 - Franco
#212 " Dr Dreadful
"Agenda 21 appears to be simply a blueprint on sustainable development. It is not a treaty, nor does it appear to be binding on any of the UN member nations, whose participation is voluntary. In that respect it's no more sinister than Unicef.
The site you linked to appears to be a forum for some of those folks who think anything the UN does is some dastardly scheme to usurp national sovereignty."
Doc, what things appear to be, and what they are, often times are not the same thing.
Your admittedly shallow assessment of Agenda 21 makes you sound more like a UN public spokesman for it.
Agenda 21 stands for the agenda of the 21st century. There are literally hundreds of interlocking goals under Agenda 21. Yet there is no one UN information site that explanes it all. Agenda 21 is intended to function as a whole after being enacted piecemeal.
Most people do not know anything about it either, yet it is changing the way the world works and thinks to fit the agenda.
I will admit it is not easily understood as it takes weeks and months of research to begin to even grasp the depth of its root structure already in the works.
There are key cornerstone goals to Agenda 21 the UN must implement. Kyoto is just one of them. The International Criminal Court (ICC), which was established in 2002. The push for a UN World Tax, UN Internet Control (wanting control of the last "MSM free" puplic means of mass information and communition).
Many goals are grouped and given their own names, such as the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) often time refured to as “Guided by the UN Core Strategy” But these all fall under Agenda 21.
There is no way I can send you to one site that explanes it all. You have to do your own research work and it takes well over a hundred hours to start to see its breath.
If you are interested in knowing you can start by Googling "Agenada 21+any word you want"
Agenda 21+International Criminal Court
Agenda 21+Kyoto
Agenda 21+World Tax
etc, etc.
The site you linked to appears to be a forum for some of those folks who think anything the UN does is some dastardly scheme to usurp national sovereignty.
This is a reckless comment as the UN is the greatest threat to national sovereignty in the world today. While you may not take it that seriously for the UK, or even care if the UK keeps it, we here in the USA do, and far more passionately then your surprise at our intense passion for collage sports.
"Tyranny is always better organized than freedom."
237 - Dr Dreadful
Franco, without the more in-depth analysis you suggest, all I can do is comment on what appears to be the case after a cursory look.
I took your suggestion and Googled a few terms in conjunction with 'Agenda 21' (including, for a giggle, Agenda 21+cabbage). So far, the first few hits (excluding the ones that aren't from actual UN sites) have invariably worn a right-wing and/or nationalist agenda on their sleeves, usually blended with an overdose of over-the-counter paranoia. One site even outlined the 'ostensibly' altruistic social, economic and environmental goals of Agenda 21 and then immediately, without any substantiation whatsoever, dismissed the whole thing as Marxism.
This isn't the sort of thing which makes me want to devote much time or patience to the matter, but I will have another poke around. I'll get back to you.
238 - Franco
#237 -- Dr Dreadful
"This isn't the sort of thing which makes me want to devote much time or patience to the matter."
I understand your reluctance to such sites, especial if they are on the right. Regardless, those are only their one exit summaries of there own research for better or worse.
It is better to take the front door approach and get it from the house mouth, and its supports rather then its critics to make up your own mind. It's just that you have to find its elitist proponents speaking about it to get a grasps of the total planed physiological transformation of the way government at national, state, and local levels in order to implement Agenda 21. It is in no way a forced compliance, it is as means to physiologically transform sociality to institute it upon themselves for love of the environment. Anyone objecting must be seen as a threat to the whole.
The main reason I do not agree with Agenada 21 is because it is an elitist manifestation for mass control by the few (elected by no one but themselves and accountable to no one but themselves) in this grand theory of "community-ism" or we are all doomed, at the direct expanse of the individual and his rights. Conformity is health for the community, and individualism is unhealthy to the community. Dose this sound familiar?
You may find the following link interesting as it is an American elitist supporting Agenda 21 who is addressing a meeting in the UK of like minded elitists. Note, you will not see radially worded statements, it is the underlaying mindset and tone that reveals the scope and breath of their planning transformation and dominance at ever level of socity that rived throughout it.
American/UK Agenda 21 Supporters
239 - Dr Dreadful
Franco, you do realize that H. sapiens is a communal, not a solitary, species, don't you? And that the rights of the individual, while extremely precious, are not the key to survival?
Go back and read your history books. America was not built by rugged individualists, however much some believe that it was.
More immediately dangerous than this attitude, though, is the one that regards anything not thought of and directed by Americans as a Bad Idea.
Presumably you've attended some meetings in your time and know what an agenda is: a plan or outline of proceedings, aimed at preventing the meeting from degenerating into a free-for-all. (Doesn't always work, of course!) And that's really all Agenda 21 is: a guidebook or manual for sustainable development. There's nothing coercive or compulsory about it, as you recognize but do not appreciate.
No: it's not the U.S. agenda, therefore it's a vast sinister international conspiracy. (Even more extraordinary, a conspiracy by a global organization so powerful and effective that it can't even prevent a minor tribal war from getting out of hand?!?)
Living in broadly pro-American Chile you may not fully appreciate this, but I'm afraid that to much of the world, Reagan's 'shining city on a hill' is more like the homeowner who leaves his security lights blazing all night and keeps the neighbors awake.
240 - Dan(Miller)
H. sapiens is a communal, not a solitary, species. . . . So very true! That may be very helpful when the next ice age (apparently a Russian, not a U.S. invention, see comment # 233) comes. We are already training our five pups (also a communal species) to huddle with us.
Dan(Miller)
241 - Glenn Contrarian
Dan -
May I recommend that we look at articles from Pravda with a jaded eye....
242 - Dan(Miller)
Glen,
But but but . . . Pravda is a foreign, Communist rag, which doubtless should enhance it's credibility.
Actually, I try pretty hard to look at all articles with a jaded eye, and not only those with which I am disposed to disagree.
Dan(Miller)
243 - Dr Dreadful
Dan,
You have noticed all those ice sheets and glaciers lying around, haven't you? (Or possibly not, down there in chilly Panama!)
We're in an ice age. It just happens to be a relatively warm part of one right now (an interglacial), which has enabled us monkeys to flourish.
The snag is that our infrastructure and economy, which we have developed at a quite ridiculous speed (cosmically speaking) is highly dependent on the climate staying more or less right where it is. We won't have any more fun if it gets hotter than we will if it reverts to icy business as usual.
244 - Dr Dreadful
BTW, when you have finished with your jaded eye, can I purchase it from you? Is it good quality jade? I have an e-mail correspondent in Nigeria who may consider it as good collateral for an estate distribution plan he has proposed.
245 - Dan(Miller)
Doc,
It is of the very highest quality Colombian jade, with high-tech optics certified by Herr Professor Dusseldorf von Warmenschnausen, a well known mineralogist, climatologist and financial adviser. I shall probably need it for a while. However, I can possibly see my way clear to bequeath it to you right now*, in exchange for an immediate and substantial share of the Nigerian estate distribution.
As to climate change, I am delighted that you have finally seen the beauty of the "Conservative" position, and recognize that change is bad.
Dan(Miller)
*This offer is good only for the next ten minutes; call now. Our operators are standing by.
246 - Dr Dreadful
Yes indeed, Dan, I have seen the error of my ways. You'll be pleased to know that I have cancelled my membership of Moveon.org and my subscription to The Nation, have written strongly-worded letters to all
5958595859 Democratic senators urging their immediate resignation, have thrown my TV remote into a vat of battery acid so that the set cannot now be changed from Fox News, have purchased a significant quantity of illegal armaments and combat fatigues and a ranch in rural Montana (tautology alert!), and have instructed my associates to direct anyone who looks as if they might be a socialist, a Jew, a homosexual, an atheist, a Muslim or a vegan into a large and alarmingly concrete sports stadium....Have I gone too far?
247 - Dan(Miller)
No, Doc you haven't. It's just a good start. I am, however, so pleased with your metamorphosis that I have extended the generous offer made in my comment # 245 for an additional ten minutes, starting now.
Dan(Miller)
248 - Dr Strangelove
Unfortunately, Dan, due to my recent right-wing metamorphosis I am now constitutionally unable to do business with anyone who does not look exactly like me. Consequently I have discontinued my business association with Mr Obi, who apparently once used an elevator that had been serviced by Albert Einstein's seventh cousin's hairdresser's roommate. I must therefore decline the jade. If, however, you have access to any substance that might help to control this severe nervous twitch in my right arm, I am prepared to negotiate terms. Just sign on this Maginot line.
249 - Cindy D
OMG (if there was one)!
Laurel and Hardy, Penn and Teller, Whoever and Whomever...eat your hearts out.
(bombs away)
250 - Glenn Contrarian
LOL!
Hm. Did anyone happen to notice a similarity between Dubya and a certain pilot heroically riding a nuke dropped from a B-52 in Dr. Strangelove?
Yeee-hah!
251 - Roger Nowosielski
They even look alike. Dubya should be proud!
252 - Cindy D
Just look what you've done now
Dan(Miller)Ollie.253 - Dan(Miller)
I would ask who Ollie might be, but I am now preparing to go to France to sign something for Doc. On the other hand, it might be better to ask the question since I despise all things French and don't really want to go.
Oh, Hell. Who is Ollie?
Dan(Miller)
Would someone please pass the Chilean wine? No, the white please. Thank you.
254 - Glenn Contrarian
Ollie is Oliver Hardy, the short, rotund opposite of Stan Laurel from the black-and-white post-Vaudeville days.
The sad thing is, my kids have never even heard of them....
255 - Cindy D
Fine mess you've gotten us into this time.
256 - Clavos
Ollie is Oliver Hardy, the short, rotund opposite of Stan Laurel from the black-and-white post-Vaudeville days.
Known in México (where they are quite popular) as El Gordo y El Flaco.
257 - Glenn Contrarian
Hm.
Look at Laurel and Hardy.
Then look at Dubya and Darth Cheney.
Hm, indeed.
258 - Clavos
According to this opinion piece,
But it's OK, because algore, through his newly formed I'll-get-richer-trading-in-Global-Warming-issues-I-set-up company, will sell carbon offsets to the government, and then the inaugural CO2 won't count."The irony! The irony!" (With a tip o' me titfer to Joseph Conrad)
259 - Dave Nalle
To hell with the carbon footprint, I'm offended by the $150 million pricetag.
Dave
260 - Dan(Miller)
Bread and circuses normally produce big carbon footprints. Although the inauguration will not display large numbers of flatulent elephants* prominently, many member of the Congress (most of them donkeys) are likely to be present.
The $150,000,000 price tag may seem excessive to some, but it will certainly provide badly needed economic stimuli -- even more if it snows in Washington, which would be a good thing.
Dan(Miller)
*There is absolutely no truth to the rumor being spread by the vast right wing conspiracy that a ritual elephant sacrifice will be the highlight of the ceremony.
261 - Brunelleschi
Why would the Christian right care about the mess they make of the Earth while they make money?
They think they are going to Heaven where it's clean.
262 - Andy Marsh
Doc says in comment #239...More immediately dangerous than this attitude, though, is the one that regards anything not thought of and directed by Americans as a Bad Idea.
I guess this is compared to the typical European attitude that says that anything thought of and directed by Americans IS a bad idea???
263 - Dan(Miller)
Andy,
There is ample disproof of both Doc's and your comments: The internet and man made global warming were both invented by an American (a former Vice President, no less) and both seem to be widely accepted in both the U.S. and in Europe. As the situation worsens, the acceptance will increase. This is true despite the current chilling trend, as a result of which "In Alaska, they're using a witch's tit to heat their food."
Dan(Miller)
264 - Christopher Rose
The thing is, Andy, the attitude Doc describes is far more common, whereas the one you describe is just held by a vocal minority.
265 - Andy Marsh
I always heard they were cold Dan...like a well diggers ass! But I guess it is all relative...
266 - Andy Marsh
Personally, if it's not MY idea, it probably stinks...that's a much more American attitude than the one Doc spewed earlier.
267 - Christopher Rose
Personally, if it's
notMY idea, it probably stinks...There you go, Andy, I fixed up your remark for ya! :-)
268 - Andy Marsh
I'm assuming that was supposed to be funny?
I've always had a little trouble with that British sense of humor...you know...spam spam spam spam and all.
You have a bad attitude CR!
269 - Christopher Rose
If you haven't got the spam thing yet, there's not much hope for ya, Andy, that was the 70s. We've moved on since then. Do try and keep up! ;-)
270 - Andy Marsh
All right, I may have had fun with the spam thing...but albatross?
Actually, I've always been a fan of British humor.
Which should help explain why I had a problem with your comment!!!
hehehe
271 - Christopher Rose
Good one! lol
272 - Jet
Andy #263, this cold weather is caused by global warming. As the polar ice shelves are melting they're like giant icecubes in a glass cooling the oceans which drive the weather.
In the summer, without the white ice to reflect sunlight and radiation back into space, it's absorbed into the dark seas warming them like sunlight on a car's black vinal top.
As the earth rotates back into winter and is farther from the sun, the ice sheets that melted the previous summer take over again playing hell with the jetstream (sorry) which is where our weather is coming from. Instead of it traveling laterally, the warmth at the poles is pushing the jetstream in a more north/south configuration gathering cold air from the poles, instead of West/East.
but of course that's only my opinion.
273 - Dr Dreadful
Just to clarify the hurricane thing, I believe the prevailing view of hurricane experts is that they are likely to become less frequent, but more powerful.
274 - Clavos
the warmth at the poles is pushing the jetstream in a more north/south configuration gathering cold air from the poles, instead of West/East.
The change in the position and direction of the Jet Stream is a normal seasonal variation, which has nothing to do with GW. According to The Weather Channel:
275 - Dr Dreadful
Andy,
The Marshall Plan, the internet* and Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure are all examples of American ideas which are highly thought of in Europe. The Iraq War, Hershey's 'chocolate' and Jessica Simpson, not so much.
* Although not the World Wide Web, which was invented by a Brit and is therefore the best idea ever conceived.