Everyone has heard what Durbin said. I have no need to repeat them here. By now you have read something that has polarized you on a topic once again. Either this whole deal has been "blown out of proportion" and Bush really is a Nazi, or you believe that Dick Durbin's comments were completely unjustified and out of line. To help you understand what his statements really meant let me clarify a few things:
1. Claiming someone's actions are like or similar to a person or persons of vile and infamous note is a direct insult. We are defined by our actions. If you state one's actions are deplorable you have attacked the person.
2. No amount of saying how much you really love and support the troops changes the reality of the knife in their back. I would rather you just kill me and get it over with than shake my hand with your right while you plunge the knife with your left. Call it a misunderstood statement. Claim we're ignoring the substance, but what has been said can have no sugar coating.
3. Making accusations of anything in a congressional forum is the same as filing a lawsuit. You have made an official declaration and better have the facts to back up your story, not just a report in which you can't even tell if it was a statement from an FBI agent or if it was just a report from an FBI agent. Doesn’t an FBI agent write all the reports from the prisoners? When an official speaks in a congressional forum he speaks to the world that something is fact and has tangible evidence to back up your claim.
This being said you should be able to ascertain this writer's opinion on this particular issue. I feel that Dick Durbin made a statement in an official capacity that stated torture similar to that which happened by the most heinous of persons has gone on at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Not just that, but you make the official claim that it was not only authorized, but directed by the senior most official of the United States.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Temple Stark
So no one wants to ask what the fuck not-elected-anymore-to-any-position Newt Gingrich is doing distributing marching orders to sitting congressmembers?
I'm sorry but both sideas have said some atrociously shitty things. This is somewhere in the middle.
2 - Marc
Why should we ask Temple?
He's like every private citizen that can do the very same as Gingrich has done.
And by this statement, (I'm sorry but both sideas have said some atrociously shitty things. This is somewhere in the middle.) can I assume you believe because something was done in the past it's not worth the effort to correct a current offense?
If so you're nuts.
3 - Temple Stark
I'm just calling bullshit. Assume nothing.
Do you believe because someone is "outraged" that they are always truly outraged?
4 - David R. Mark
If the Senate is going to censure Durbin, then it should also censure Rick Santorum (R-PA) for using a Hitler reference when discussing the Democrats' desire to filibuster.
And maybe someone should ask for an apology from Vice President Cheney, for dropping an F-Bomb on Patrick Leahy last year.
And maybe someone should ask for an apology from President Bush, for making jokes at the correspondents dinner about not being able to find WMD.
5 - Nancy
"Outraged" is a cheap term the politicians of both parties use when puffing themselves up like bullfrogs prior to pontificating on some partisan point or other they're preparing to score. They all have also resorted to so much exaggeration & hyperbole none of them have any kind of credibility whatsoever with anyone even vaguely familiar with their daily spew of verbal diarrhea. It would do the US and all of us a lot of good if ALL of them would just shut the hell up and think a little before opening their big yaps to let fly in order to score political points.
6 - Jeremy
1. Temple, please try not to curse. It detracts from your statements something awful.
2. David, The difference in this case was most, if not all, (I don't follow Santourm, sorry) of the comments that you mention were OUTSIDE of an official capacity. When you speak in the senate or congress you are speaking FOR the senate or congress. If Durbin had made these statements somewhere else I would not have any fervor whatsoever in the prosecution of this issue.
3. I'm sure there are other senators and congressmen that are doing the same sort of thing. By pointing to someone else and saying, "look! He's doing it too!" doesn't make the first statement any less wrong.
4. marching orders to sitting congressmembers
Sounds like you've been spending a bit too much time over at the Daily KOS there Temple. You really need to get out more. (Not an attempt at your character. I've seen this and similar comments attacking Newt's capacity and character from that nice fit of rage Armando had. Nevertheless, attacking Newt is besides the point.) Marc is dead on about this point.
5. If you can find a recent quote by another politician that equates to criminalizing the troops in an official capacity, such as where Durbin chose to speak his mind, I would gladly take the censure format from Newt and redirect it to the other offending party. They have ALL gone too far, but it doesn't make it right. It's up to the American people to call bull when we see it. Excusing it because of someone else's actions is just plain wrong.
[/end 2 cents]
7 - David R. Mark
From today's Daily Howler:
(H)ere’s the report Dick Durbin discussed. Does this sound anything like the America described in your children’s civics texts? Does this sound anything like the America adult citizens would present to the world?
FBI REPORT (7/29/04): On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food, or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold...On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.
Durbin asked an obvious question: If you’d read that report, would you ever have thought that it was describing American conduct? Or would you have thought what Durbin saidâ€"that it must describe an evil regime, the type we have long denounced? The answer to that is perfectly obvious.
8 - Temple Stark
I can attest to the fact that rap music played loudly - next door - is motherfucking** annoying. And shit**, I even like rap music.
**I agree swears are weak. Rarely do in "real life." Written word across the web is a little different. I do it pretty much for humor and even then I do it rarely. There are bigger points to address here. Go after them.
9 - Temple Stark
I meant to expand on that thought. Not only annoying but I became very angry, irritable and I slammed and punched the walls very hard to get the guys to shut up and turn it down. (Luckily it worked and) And I wasn't even imprisoned though in a way I was. When it happens off and on every day for a week, sometimes at 2 and 3 in the morning it completely changes your personality and you are an angry SOB.
If it had been country music, I would be dead.
10 - Jeremy
Country can have that effect on people. Maybe if it had been that song from Mars Attacks would your head have exploded from the resonance? (joke)
Okay, you've effectively nullified the rap music torture effect by turning it into a personal story. (I'm really sorry to hear about your neighbors.)
Let me grab the next one. Anybody ever lose A/C in their house? How about our men and women who patrol the streets of Iraq in 120+ degree head in full battle gear? Does that qualify?
Heater ever go out in the winter? Mine has. There aren't enough friggin' blankets in the world. I guess I was only torturing myself then.
The only thing that really concerns me about the entire excerpt would be the long term chaining in the fetal position. From what I've heard though, many of these people become unaproachable for long periods of time. I'm not sure, but the chaining of the hands and feet may be for purposes of preventing the prisoner from hurting himself. Didn't one of the prisoners pull out a good portion of his hair because he had to listen to rap?
No, the real torture here is being one of only a few conservative minds in a sea of liberal ones. Now THAT'S torture. ;-)
11 - David R. Mark
Santorum's use of Hitler was on the Senate floor. Hypocritically, it came just a few weeks after he chastised a Democrat (forget who) for using a Hitler reference.
And Cheney's comments were on the Senate floor, although the session had not yet started.
I'm just saying that people get all high and mighty when it's criticizing someone from the other party. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we are going to crucify Durbin for exercising a Hitler comparison, then we have to crucify Santorum, too. And if the Republicans aren't willing to do that, then they are being a bunch of hypocrites.
12 - gonzo marx
pertaining to comment #6
1) fuck that
2)factually incorrect...see comment #11
3)i agree, remember that the next time someone goes over the top equating an opponent as a "marxist" or a "socialist" or a "stalinist"
4)Newt is in a very interesting position here, on on ehand he is the chief political editor of Fox news, on the other hand he spends at least half of every month fundraising for the GOP at $1000 a plate dinners and other meetings...his schedule is public, go look it up yourself...so to try and imply he is any kind of private citizen is a bit disingenuous, eh?
but i have plenty of Issues with Newt, no need fo rhtem here, except to say his own credibility in matters of speaking within the House are less than exemplary...the whole glass houses bit
5) please go back and READ what Sen Durbin said, EXACTLY...where is the word "troop" ?...he was criticizing BEHAVIOUR and Actions...NOT any particular Individual or group of people directly...i personally agree his rhetoric is a bit over the top, and that there were probably much better ways to make his point...but for ANY GOP type to bitch about his words and yet still endorse many that speak for the GOP with their hate mongering bullshit is just a bit hypocritical
just my one sixth billionths of the world's Opinion...
your mileage may vary
Excelsior!
13 - Natalie Davis
Make that two sixth billionths, Mr. Marx.
14 - gonzo marx
thanks Ms Davis..and please..for me it's just gonzo...
Excelsior!
15 - Bennett
Ms Davis, gozo is gay, so you can call him by his first (pen) name. Heck, me too, in fact on my post today ol gonzo said he adored me. I adore him. So there you go.
;-]
16 - Bennett
Damn, it's gonzo, I know it is....
And please, that was intended as humor.
I'm not really gay. But if I wasn't straight, you can bet I'd be gay as hell.
I'm pretty sure the same goes for gonzo.
17 - Dave Nalle
Did someone forget to tell Newt he got voted out a few years ago?
In anycase, as a talking head he can spout all sorts of silly stuff because he doesn't have to follow through on it and try to actually convince people to vote to censure Durbin.
As for what Durbin said, yes it was poorly conceived and a mischaracterization of conditions at GITMO, but it's no worse than the crazy shit Conyers says every week, and I don't know if any of you remember B-1 Bob Dornan (soon maybe to be reelected), but he said even crazier stuff from the other side virtually every day. Or for that matter hardly a day passes when Byrd doesn't spout off some flowery speech comparing Bush to Hitler or something equally nuts. The entire Democratic party is operating in permanent crisis mode, striking out like spoiled children at everyone around them, and not really putting much thought into anything they say. They got marginalized by the last election and have decided it's okay to act like a fringe party. Eventually calmer heads will prevail.
But the point is that Durbin didn't actually literally make a direct comparison between anyone and Hitler or Pol Pot - he barely skirted actually saying it that way - and if you censure him you'd have to censure at least a dozen other loutmouths on the hill. Better just to let his behavior speak for itself.
Dave
18 - Bennett
Durbin made a tearful appology on the floor of the Senate today.
McCain accepted it, calling his action "the brave and correct thing to do." Followed by "I believe that we can put this behind us now."
19 - MDE
re: "Durbin made a tearful apology on the floor of the Senate today."
Soap opera and spectacle...what a jerk.
20 - Dave Nalle
I have to say, a tearful apology is pretty lame. I'd rather he stand by his beliefs than resort ot cheap sympathy whoring.
Dave
21 - Patriot
We should have given Gingrich and Durbin pistols and let them duel at 20 paces.
It would make this quarrel so much more interesting.
22 - Aaman
Then one of them would have become President, or at least come close:)
23 - Jeremy
Better yet, we could get Zell Miller to officiate.
"In my day we'd challenge them to a duel...."
Well, real or fake crocodile tears, he has apologised for his unintentional defamation of the American troops. That's good enough of a retraction for me. It should be good enough for congress, Gingrich and the rest of the vast right wing conspiracy.
My main beef had to do with the troops. Beating the crap out of each other is still deplorable. We, the people, should not have to tolerate sophomoric name calling from out politicians.
If I didn't have a crapload of clearance paperwork to finish tonight I'd write something more on it. As it is, I think it might be a good idea to start doing something about what our senators and congressmen say and do instead of just complaining to each other about it.
If anyone wants to start a bi-partisan action group for keeping our politicians in line while acting in an official capacity I've got your back.
...just thinking, do you guys feel the same way about Gingrich from the left as the right feels about Carter?
24 - Dave Nalle
The right has a problem with Carter? I just thought he was a tedious do-gooder nonentity who used to pretend to be president.
Dave
25 - Jeremy
Anybody remember the "my balogna" song that used to be sung when he was president?
"My balogna has a first name.
It's J.I.M.M.Y.
My balogna has a second name.
It's C.A.R.T.E.R.
Oh, [can't remember this part]every day,
and if you'll ask me why I'll say!
'cause Jimmy Carter has a way of screwing up the USA.
That missing part has haunted me for years. I can't b elieve I still remember most of it though. I think I was four or five when I memorized it.