Every few days some loon emails me a warning about the new uber-government of North America, but I'm still not buying it.
Being involved with political groups of a Libertarian persuasion, I get on the mailing lists of all sorts of well-meaning, but somewhat loony people on both the right and left of the political spectrum - and sometimes those two extremes are hard to tell apart. One of the things which is high on their list of concerns is the impending surrender of the sovereignty of the United States under the authority of a new continental government sometimes referred to as the 'North American Union'. I get a different email warning about it every few days.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Weaver
It appears that the writer enters this debate a couple of years too late! Credit goes to the conspiracy folks who brought this issue to the light of day.
If selling off the last vestigages of America's competitive advantage is a good idea, why does JudicialWatch need to file FOA's to get information on the SPP from the public domain?
The author throws around so many "ism"s and "ist"s that I'm now convinced that I should give up objective thinking.
Nah, I still don't think its a good idea to allow North America to monopolize the world's food production through fear trade agreements and subsidies.
Sorry!
27 - STM
Clav wrote: "How does this hurt our "sovereignty?" It's business, which has been multinational for nearly a hundred years, now, beginning with US companies spreading all over the world. Have other nations sovereignties been destroyed by American companies operating in their territories?"
Hey there mate: Quoted for truth (sorry gonzo, it's an oldie but a goodie) ... most of our icon brands here, for instance Vegemite, Milo, Arnotts Biscuits, Speedo, and some of the big surf companies, are now under the wing of the multi-nationals, some of them headquarted in the US. However, they do provide jobs here in Australia - which might not have been the case had they not been able to move on to the next level, if you like.
It's the way of the world, literally, and we shouldn't be getting too freaked out about it. Capitalism is capitalism. It works both ways, and a good thing too.
28 - Dave Nalle
It appears that the writer enters this debate a couple of years too late! Credit goes to the conspiracy folks who brought this issue to the light of day.
I'm not clear what issue you're referring to. If it's the supposed NAU, then I hesitate to call pointing the finger at the loons who made it up 'giving them credit'.
If selling off the last vestigages of America's competitive advantage is a good idea,
Where on earth does this idea come from? American consumers are the engine which drives world trade and our investors remain the main force funding business around the world.
why does JudicialWatch need to file FOA's to get information on the SPP from the public domain?
They don't. If it's info that is already available in the public domain then they don't need to file FOIA requests to get it.
The documents which they DID acquire through a FOIA request were mostly already available for download from Dept. of Commerce websites.
What's more, the documents contain ZERO evidence that there is a plan to create a NAU and are generally pretty innocuous. JudicialWatch draws no conclusion from them which supports the NAU conspiracy theory. In fact, if anything the purpose of JudicialWatch in gatherinf these documents appears to be to provide evidence to debunk the NAU conspiracy.
You can also find virtually the same information JudicialWatch dug up in a more coherent form on the SPP website. The SPP makes no effort to hide what they're doing, because they're not doing anything nefarious.
The author throws around so many "ism"s and "ist"s that I'm now convinced that I should give up objective thinking.
That would certainly make Lou Dobbs happy.
Nah, I still don't think its a good idea to allow North America to monopolize the world's food production through fear trade agreements and subsidies.
LOL. Talk about being behind the times. Perhaps you should have raised this issue 100 years ago when the US first started dominating the world market in grain, sugar and other basic agricultural commodities.
Dave
29 - Dave Nalle
Don't hesitate to check out the dates on the SPP's summary of the information which Judicial Watch gathered with the FOIA requests and then compare that date to the date of the FOIA requests. You'll notice that the SPP website went online with that information 5 months before JW filed to get the source documents.
Conspiracy my ass.
dave
30 - Al Barger
What all you sheeple are missing is the global warming conspiracy. G-L-O-B-A-L, don't you get it?
31 - Clavos
What all you sheeple are missing is the global warming conspiracy. G-L-O-B-A-L, don't you get it?
Maybe that's because the OP's topic wasn't about GW?
Why don't you write an article about GW, Al?
As a "questioner" (or doubter) myself, I'd look forward to commenting on it.
Clavos
32 - Dave Nalle
I can speak from experience that Global Warming articles are a surefire way to attract scary fanatics to make incredibly offensive comments and keep a thread alive for a long time.
Dave
33 - Clavos
So are Chavez articles...
34 - Dave Nalle
Maybe Hugo Chavez is responsible for global warming. He certainly spews out enough hot air.
Dave
35 - Michael J. West
Speaking of scary fanatics, can I assume that BC has lost Richard Brodie forever? If he was still around, he would have commented on this thread at least six times by now.
36 - Dave Nalle
I'm sure he'd love this thread, but I think he may have been one of the few users to actually have his IP address blocked from accessing the site.
Dave
37 - Michael J. West
Really? How did he pull that off?
38 - Michael J. West
By the way--while I have little time or patience for conspiracy theories, I don't attribute ulterior motives to conspiracists. Their motives are the same as most of the rest of our motives, albeit in other channels: trying to make sense of the world by attributing to it a designed order that doesn't exist.
39 - Dave Nalle
So you see them as pathetic and confused rather than actively evil? But if the outcome of their activity is to spread fear and foolishenss through the large part of the population which doesn't know any better, isn't that pretty evil in effect if not in intent?
Dave
40 - alessandro Nicolo
History has gaps. Life has contradictions. Our lives are nothing but historical contradictions. Conspiracy theorists and revisionists alike attempt to fill in the gaps and revise the context. If only they would examine their own personal lives and explain the anomalies, eh? They'd find certain things can't be explained that easily.
Gore, The Secret, Russo, Jones, Moore - all are trying to figure and explain the world through "secrets" they hold - or statistics in the case of Gore they comprehend. Frail, fragile and feeble they become when truly scrutinized.
It's scaringly easy to debunk theorists. The trick to navigating the gaps of history and contradictions is to treat the facts with care, observe the patterns and build sound models. Only then will we be able to infer and properly guess what we may or may not know. And sometimes this is not enough. But who the hell has time for that these days, right? What used to take science decades to prove a reasearch takes magically a few years now. Fact and fiction are meant to be blurred for a confused populace. Ka-ching. Ka-ching.
As for the NAU and the NWO. Here's a Canadian perspective. We've been talking about this for years. For a while, our newpsapers were wondering if there was going to be an eventual customs unions where Canada was going to use the US greenback. It's not that easy to give up a dollar for another.
Canadians are paranoid also. Many blogs are convinced that PM Harper is preparing Canada to further integrate with America. They, without fact but suspicion, claim Harper is "so far up Mr. Bush's ass" (never mind that 87% of our trade is with America may have something to do with this. Maybe he's just being realistic?).
They also have all sorts of buttons "No further intgegration with America" plastered." In the case of Canada we are already are. The irony of course is that Canada (for complex reasons we can't get into here) had sold its soul long ago - it's a branch plant economy. There, I said it.
David and a few others are bang on with the corporations. It means little where the group is from. What matters is that the funds stay in and who the investors are. As STM said, sometimes it takes a foreigner to save a national icon. It is what it is.
The nation-state is not dead - just reorienting itself.
End.
41 - moonraven
Interesting that a crackpot like Dave Nalle would have the temerity to call someone else "llony".
And clavos--who if he isn't certifiable it's because he escaped from a rubber room someplace and they haven't found him in the Everglades....yet--putting down state legislatures from his lofty double digit IQ position.
Wow: That said, when the US invaded Mexico and ended up buying half its territory it felt maybe it got the wrong half. A feeling that persists--especially since there are uranium deposits in Chiapas that the warmongers would love to use to make bombs (I am surprised that they didn't try to say that Saddam Hussein was dealing for uranium with Subcomandante Marcos--but probably they wanted that to be their secret stash of uranium under somebody else's jungle....)
If the US could take over Mexico they would turn it into a huge Guatanamo of slave labor to mine the resources they need--sort of like what Porfirio Diaz did when his forces rounded up "troublemakers" and shipped them off to work and die in the Yucatan....
42 - moonraven
LOONY. Sorry about the inadvertent misdiagnosis.
43 - Arch Conservative
Don't worry MR. You're still queen of the crackpots.
44 - Iconoclast421
"Personal attacks are not allowed. Please read our comment policy"
ROFL... since no one read the comment policy, let me just add this:
Hey Dave can you say anything that makes you NOT look like a shill?
45 - J.J. Hunsecker
"Don't worry MR. You're still queen of the crackpots."
As decreed by the King.
46 - J.J. Hunsecker
"if the outcome of their activity is to spread fear and foolishenss throught he large part of the population which doesn't know any better, isn't that pretty evil in effect if not in intent?"
Sounds like some of the administration's tactics.
47 - Dave Nalle
Hey Dave can you say anything that makes you NOT look like a shill?
I'm not sure. I bet it depends on the mindset of the reader. Out of curiosity, who exactly would I be shilling for when I expose the fraudulence of conspiracies like this? Perhaps I'm shilling for the people and their right to be told the truth?
Dave
48 - MCH
"Perhaps I'm shilling for the people and their right to be told the truth?"
- Dave (Vox Populi) Nalle
But why would the people pay a liar for that?
49 - Michael J. West
So you see them as pathetic and confused rather than actively evil?
I didn't mean it to be quite so pejorative. Look, what the conspiracy theorists do is what we all do--it's in our nature to do it.
We live in a chaotic, tumultuous, random-chance world, us humans. In our need to make sense of it, we search for patterns, and where we don't find them, our brain is wired to create them out of the random and convince us that they were already there, just waiting for us to discover them.
It's the same process that leads some to insist on the principle of "intelligent design."
But no, it's not evil in effect so much as unfortunate. Evil implies it's being done to the people deviously and against their will, but it's being done obviously and people are all too willing to fall for it.
50 - Michael J. West
Now, "pathetic" might be a good word for MCH....
51 - Dave Nalle
I didn't mean it to be quite so pejorative. Look, what the conspiracy theorists do is what we all do--it's in our nature to do it.
Imposing artificial structure on the chaos of the real world. But then what do we say about people whose inclination is to project onto the world a structure which is extremely negative and destructive?
We live in a chaotic, tumultuous, random-chance world, us humans. In our need to make sense of it, we search for patterns, and where we don't find them, our brain is wired to create them out of the random and convince us that they were already there, just waiting for us to discover them.
So you're saying that the desire for these conspiracies comes from within the believers, which makes the believers pretty twisted, because when given a choice between ways to look at the world they don't pick something optimistic, they go for the darkest scenario regardless of how much they have to massage the facts to make it work.
It's the same process that leads some to insist on the principle of "intelligent design."
Or any other faith in religion, which I'm not a fan of, but which I see as way less destructive a fantasy than what these conspriacy buffs promote.
But no, it's not evil in effect so much as unfortunate. Evil implies it's being done to the people deviously and against their will, but it's being done obviously and people are all too willing to fall for it.
There's a sucker born every minute. But I think that there are those like Lou Dobbs who make their living off of promoting this stuff, and I think they ought to be held accountable.
Dave
52 - Michael J. West
So you're saying that the desire for these conspiracies comes from within the believers, which makes the believers pretty twisted, because when given a choice between ways to look at the world they don't pick something optimistic, they go for the darkest scenario regardless of how much they have to massage the facts to make it work.
Taking the above into account, and going back to your question about people who frame the world negatively and destructively...
You know, I often think that the reason for that is because it gives them some feeling of control over the world...like "these things happened because of people we put in power, so to fix things all we have to do is take them out of power." But maybe also because it's self-aggrandizing, i.e., "When the truth finally comes out, I'll be a hero for having known it all along. I'm smart and the rest of the world is dumb."
I think sometimes that my outlook is simultaneously more optimistic AND more pessimistic than yours, Mr. Nalle.
Or any other faith in religion, which I'm not a fan of, but which I see as way less destructive a fantasy than what these conspriacy buffs promote.
Weeeelllllll, I wouldn't go quite that far. Each is destructive in its own way. Most conspiracy theorists, for example, don't advocate the perpetual subjugation of women to men, or governmental regulation of what goes on in your bedroom, or the scuttling of science in education and society. But they both thrive on fearmongering ("Jesus or Hell!") and conversion.
There's a sucker born every minute. But I think that there are those like Lou Dobbs who make their living off of promoting this stuff, and I think they ought to be held accountable.
I don't. Let him say whatever silly thing he wants; inevitably he'll destroy his own credibility with all but the outermost fringe, who were going to believe in crazy shit with or without Dobbs.
53 - Clavos
Plus, holding the Lou Dobbs of the world "accountable" verges very close to infringing on their freedom of speech, IMO.
54 - Dave Nalle
Freedom of speech is an absolute right, but it does not exempt one from accountability for that speech. Dobbs is accountable to the public and his bosses and his advertisers. At the point they get fed up with him he will pay the price.
Dave
55 - Clavos
Point taken, Dave.
I was addressing potential official (read: government) forms of accountability.
56 - troll
while I've often heard Dobbs decry consequences like the loss of US jobs to outsourcing and immigration I haven't heard him propound any coherent economic theory beyond an implied economic/social nationalism
anyone know what he's talking about - ?
57 - Michael J. West
Dobbs is accountable to the public and his bosses and his advertisers.
He's accountable to his audience above all else. So long as he retains that, his bosses and his advertisers will let him do whatever he wants.
58 - Dave Nalle
I was addressing potential official (read: government) forms of accountability.
If that kind of thing were going on then we might have some grounds for bitching about conspiracies that would be legit.
The only good thing about Dobbs is that so long as he continues to be the Father Conklin of our times we know that everyone's right to be an idiot in public is safe.
Dave
59 - Joe Blow in Cali
Well, after reading all these posts I think we can all agree that conspiracies don't happen EVER and that the government would never ever, ever lie about anything ever period, end of story. In fact, why do we even have the word conspiracy in the English language in the first place? In light of the fact that conspiracies are impossible and have never happened in the whole of human history. Maybe they just invented the word so that they could have a name for all the people who claim that there could be a conspiracy. The conditions for a conspiracy are too hard to meet anyway, "an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act" (one dictionary definition) come on now! It might as well have just described flying into the sun and coming out alive because that is how ludicrous it is.
Now we can all get back to important News like American Idol and football scores. Did you catch the game last weekend…?
Point is, when the criminals inside our government hit us with the next 9/11 you will all be begging them to take our rights and freedoms away, and somehow you will say to yourselves that losing freedom is actually making you more free and/or you will deny that you are losing freedom in the first place.
60 - shuurou
Well.... The way I see it is... People wouldnt talk about somthing unless it Primairly existed.. I mean, if you use common sence, thats the way things work right? You make it sound like Mr. Dobbs is crazy... You people make me laugh...
Can you honestly sit there and say or think that the Government isnt trying to do that? I read one comment saying that idaho are stupid farmers and their legislation group are voting for somthing that doesnt exist? you can't be serous? lol.. it truely is a sad sad world... Blind, deaf, and dumb right? Thats how the saying goes right? lol. Remember the stories when people were imprisoned and murderd for saying the world was round. wake up people... and stop throwing stones at lou for "trying" to wake you "so called" "Americans" up to reality. Yeah sure i agree.. Its not like its happening over night... but to say it isnt happening.. Well, thats just irresponsible and gullible.
61 - Michael J. West
Can you honestly sit there and say or think that the Government isnt trying to do that?
Um...yeah. Did you miss that part the first 40 times we denied it?
62 - shuurou
Hmmm... I could denie i was human... Doesnt mean it isnt true....
63 - shuurou
"is true" typo
64 - Clavos
Or, you could deny it...
65 - shuurou
wouldnt be to sane then now would i? lol
66 - Bob Hamrick
Revelation 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast (the anti-Christ) for one hour.
17:13 "These have a single purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast."
The European counterpart to the American Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) is called the Club of Rome (!). In 1973 they published a paper for distribution to their members which proposed the division of the world into ten “spheres of economic interest”. This has since been done, and North America is one of these zones. We are seeing its implementation in today’s headlines: NAFTA; CAFTA; the proposed elimination of the national borders between Canada & the U.S. and between the U.S. and Mexico, etc. As prophesied, these component countries are still individual “kingdoms”/nations today, with no unified political/military identities in each of these proposed “spheres of interest”, but what will tomorrow hold?
"Get a grip"?
Everything you are discussing today is unfolding EXACTLY as prophesied over 2,000 years ago in the Books of Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Joel, Hosea, Malachi, and the New Testament. We ignore this perfectly accurate information at our peril.
67 - John Q
ALL the production in the US has left the country for cheap labor and no EPA standards to conform to and now, many skilled workers, few positions. Supply and Demand is very simple, when Walmart has an abundant supply they lower prices. Unemployment statistics are a lie, people are NOT making money that 1 parent working can support a household as the corporate run "public" schools and television are raising and brainwashing the kids, add this up and tell me it doesnt stink of treason against the american people. Security cards and camera's everywhere is FREEDOM ?! write another 5 page article from youre ivory tower to try to calm people. when people dont have money to buy youre trinkets at walmart and youre wondering why theres riots at the corporate run farms because all the small farmers have been driven out of business for not having the bucks to implant chips in their livestick, and it all becomes a warzone for where this CORPORATOCRACY is trying to take this nation the writer can eat the paper he wrote the article on. schmuck.
68 - shuurou
amen
69 - Clavos
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Naw, it's just the nuts falling out of the trees...
70 - Dave Nalle
I'm going to treat Shuu whatever and Joe Blow as if they were the same person because they might as well be.
Well, after reading all these posts I think we can all agree that conspiracies don't happen EVER and that the government would never ever, ever lie about anything ever period, end of story. In fact, why do we even have the word conspiracy in the English language in the first place?
The fact that there HAVE been conspiracies in the past does not mean that every goofy conspiracy that people come up with really exists. In general the conspiracies which are real are short-term and for very specific objectives. They are not the kind of vast, world-changing conspiracies the fanboys are so big on.
"an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act" (one dictionary definition) come on now! It might as well have just described flying into the sun and coming out alive because that is how ludicrous it is.
Conspiracies which meet THAT definition are quite common. That simple definition is for things like a bank manager making a deal with burglars to get into his bank's safe. That kind of conspiracy is commonplace. That definition does NOT encompass massive secret conspiracies involving thousands of people over decades with the objective of changing the world in service of some obscure and nefarious agenda.
Point is, when the criminals inside our government hit us with the next 9/11
The 'criminals' inside our government didn't hit us with the FIRST 9/11, so why should we expect them to hit us with another one?
you will all be begging them to take our rights and freedoms away, and somehow you will say to yourselves that losing freedom is actually making you more free and/or you will deny that you are losing freedom in the first place.
People keep saying this, yet all I see from the public is cries for more freedom and more protection of our rights in the aftermath of 9/11.
Well.... The way I see it is... People wouldnt talk about somthing unless it Primairly existed..
People talk about UFOs and BigFoot and they don't exist. Do you think that the letters in Penthouse Forum are real too?
I mean, if you use common sence, thats the way things work right?
Common sense suggests that people believe all sorts of idiocy with little basis in fact.
You make it sound like Mr. Dobbs is crazy...
Good, I was trying to.
You people make me laugh...
Can you honestly sit there and say or think that the Government isnt trying to do that?
Yes, because there's no REAL EVIDENCE to suggest that they are.
I read one comment saying that idaho are stupid farmers and their legislation group are voting for somthing that doesnt exist?
They are voting against a hypothetical for the existence of which there is no evidence. Not exactly the same thing, because it's something which might exist at some time in the future. Plus their vote was on a very vague non-binding referendum, not a real law.
you can't be serous? lol.. it truely is a sad sad world... Blind, deaf, and dumb right? Thats how the saying goes right? lol. Remember the stories when people were imprisoned and murderd for saying the world was round.
That wasn't the result of a conspiracy. It was the result of openly known church policy.
wake up people... and stop throwing stones at lou for "trying" to wake you "so called" "Americans" up to reality. Yeah sure i agree.. Its not like its happening over night... but to say it isnt happening.. Well, thats just irresponsible and gullible
It's irresponsible and gullible to tell people that their government is conspiring against them when there's no evidence to support the claim.
Dave
71 - Dave Nalle
BTW, if you believe in this conspiracy how are you any more rational than Bob in #66?
Dave
72 - ascended master
Its kind of funny how Dave knows so much about something that apparently doesnt exist....Those of you who refuse to acknowledge the existence of plans for a NAU,you just have failed to look into the matter.The heads of state for Canada,the US,and Mexico have met several times in the past discussing plans for integration which is publicly known as the SPP.The Trans Texas corridor the new NAFTA highways etc are being built for the purpose of integration,and is part of the reason the government refuses to secure the US-Mexico border. It is admitted that the government does pay people to go online and personally attack people and debunk any theories that goes against the governments official version.Thats not conspiracy theory,thats conspiracy fact...look it up.
It states here that personal attacks are not allowed,yet the writer of the article(one Dave Nalle)is free to personally attack people like Alex Jones and Lou Dobbs calling them lunatics and professional fearmongerers. This is total nonsense and should be unacceptable in the less than credible world of journalism.The real lunatics and fearmongerers are in government and on television telling you to fear terrorism,fear every disease,fear global warming,fear for your kids,fear for your pets,fear al quaeda under the bed,fear comets crashing on top of your head, fear any "conspiracists" who talks about government corruption because they are lunatics and professional fearmongers and should be labelled terrorists because they aid the enemy(a bunch of muslims training on jungle gyms in the desert who hate peace and freedom and want to destroy it)
Again the only people who hate peace and freedom are the evil people in power who carry out terror attacks like 9-11 as an excuse to go to war and end peace and who are passing laws which takes away your fundamental rights and freedoms.I cant say much for those who agree with Mr.Nalle,but most people actually have brains on their heads and can see through the lies.The 911 truth movement is growing by leaps and bounds every year.So you people can write articles trying to keep people stupid all you want,its not going to work.
Next thing you know people will be thrown in a military prison and tried for treason for disagreeing with government polices...its part of legislation that was passed in America last October called the military commissions act.But hey dont believe me,look it up for yourself.Or you can continue taking your world views from people like Mr.Nalle and Bill Oreilly and all these other debunkers who are probably working on behalf of their superiors to debunk the truth.
I wont say anything else except,you must be a gullible idiot to believe anything your told by our slavemasters in government who think your stupid and think of you as "useless eaters" and ultimately plan to kill you to rid the world of what they call "certain undesirables" namely anyone who wont submit to their tryanny.Dont be an idiot, look it up.
73 - Clavos
ascended master wrote:
Dont be an idiot, look it up.
Where? Post some links with real information supporting your positions.
Otherwise, your comment is just another nutty conspiracy rant.
74 - G
I am a quasi-conspiracy nut myself. I believe in some but not all. I think a lot of what Alex Jones says has credibility to it, but what good is opening peoples eyes to the conspiracies if you don't give them a way to do something about it? Maybe an alternate route or a different solution. Just because it might be a conspiracy doesn't make it a bad thing... I think most of it is just tactics to get you to buy there DVD's and subscribe to there web pages. That's just my opinion though.
75 - Shorebreak
Hey, thanks to everyone for the all of the great info!
Now I can go back to sleep in peace, knowing that the good stewards who are dutifully and loyally serving the American people in high office have our best interests at heart. Good job!
Oh, and before I forget, can you tell me where you bought your sunglasses? Rose hasn't always been my lens color of choice, but your glasses are obviously superior to mine. Thanks!
FYI - If you want to truly debunk the NAU "conspiratists" you should draw up a list of all of the players behind NAFTA, CAFTA, and the SPP, then show how they are NOT connected to each other, how the players DON'T serve a broader agenda, and how they are NOT associated with organizations whose leaderships have publicly declared that they are focused upon global economic and/or political integration.
If you can do that, and debunk those who've shown that the opposite is true on a point by point basis, then you will gain my unyielding support. Until then, I'm gonna need a pair of those excellent sunglasses that you're wearing.
So can you tell me where you got yours? I'm trying to get back to sleep.