After the protest Mt. Hope's Rev. James Elieff described it as “an unwelcome and violent demonstration,” and the consensus among members of the congregation and Church staff seemed to be that they couldn't figure out why their church had been targeted for the attack. Elieff described BashBack!'s claims that the church was particularly anti-gay as a "gross misrepresentation."
Unquestionably, the gay community has plenty of reasons to be angry and to demand action. But is this type of protest the most effective way to win support, or is it more likely to generate the kind of hostile and very unsympathetic reaction found on right wing blogs like Right Michigan in the aftermath of the protest? The combination of gay activism with the techniques of radical anarchist groups seems like a very volatile recipe for potential disaster. While this protest did not turn violent, that's more a function of luck than intent. Many who were there believe that the hope was to provoke a violent reaction from members of the congregation. It is also certainly true that BashBack!'s stated agenda is one of countering violence with violence, but targeting groups and society rather than those specifically responsible for anti-gay crimes.
Those on the right who have described this protest as terrorism may be going too far, but it is clear that the intent of BashBack!, as illustrated in photos on their website and their rhetoric, is to emulate the techniques and even appearance of terrorists. It's not a very long trip from acting like terrorists to potentially becoming terrorists and being reacted to as terrorists, and then the potential for violence becomes much greater.
Gay activists can arm themselves easily enough and we're just fortunate that gun-toting gays like local blogger Big Gay Al of the Michigan chapter of the Pink Pistols tend to be more politically conservative and rational in focusing on self-defense rather than radicalism. For that matter, had police shown up sooner and seen protesters garbed as terrorists fleeing the scene, the reaction could have been violent and very unfortunate, though martyrdom might fit the BashBack! agenda.
There are a lot of people working very hard to promote gay rights and gay acceptance, but no matter how many wrongs may have been done in the name of intolerance and no matter how noble the cause, resorting to violence and extreme tactics does more to drive people away from a cause than win them over.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - John Galt
These activists would not dare to attempt the same protest at an Islamic mosque. Islam demands the death sentence for homosexuality. Also, 70% of African Americans voted for California prop 8. If they attempted the same protest at a Black Theology church, the brothers would put a cap in their a**.
2 - Dave Nalle
Crudely put, but it's hard to argue with you, JG.
The fact is that our society is far more tolerant of homosexuality than many others in the world, but that does not mean that we should also be tolerant of bigotry, which really is inexcusable.
Dave
3 - Jet
Dave, like the woman with the "backwards B" carved but not carved on her cheek in Pittsburgh, this had all the earmarks of something that was staged by the church itself to get the local community digusted with the evil amongst them.
As much as a lot of people would like to believe it, the gay community at large isn't prone to shooting itself in the foot-so to speak.
Anyone with any intelligence at all would know that in the long and short term this could only severely damage community relations in a time when that'd be the last thing we'd do in order to gain respect of our peers.
Of course that's only my opinion
4 - Jet
I mean think about it Dave; if you were to "stage" such an event, and all you knew about faggots was what you were taught in church in hushed voices, would you
A. Follow the lead of the west coast protests that were calm civilized people dressed in casual everyday "normal" clothes carrying picket signs and chanting slogans.
or
B. Dressed stereotypically in what the church wants you to believe about all pervert homosexuals-in other words in pink makeup and scarves, (looking like they were dressed by of all things queer arab terrorists) mincing around throwing fairy dust with limp wrists and squealing at the least provocation?
By the way, They even got the color wrong-The gay color is Lavender because it a mixture of equal parts pink and blue (sortove a light purple)
5 - Jet
After doing some quick googling Dave, I admit I was wrong about the church staging the event. I'm still suspicious of the BashBack organization, as it seemingly/intentionally is an embarrassment to the gay community at large.
Most of us gay people are extreemly embarrased when we hold an event, because the news media tend to concentrate on the over-makeuped drag queens and the mincing lisping fairies, to the point where (myself included unfortunately) have become prejudiced against those segments of our numbers that tend to drag us back two steps in the public's eyes for every one we take forward.
99.9 percent of gays blend into the general population to the point of being invisible, which scares fundamentalist even more because they can't point out "god's enemy", so they try to convince people that all gays are drag queens etc.
Quoted from new articles...
6 - J.C.
The deplorable methods of Bash Back were way out of line, but to refer to them as "terrorists" is absolutely absurd. Timothy McVeigh didn't blow up part of a building with pamphlets, nor did the Twin Towers Fall because someone ran inside and started yelling. Maybe when al Quaeda decides to release a new field manual entitled "Death to America the Easy Way: Using Fire Alarms and Condoms", I suppose the soldiers in Afghanistan will be shaking in their boots, right?
7 - Jet
I said they were dressed LIKE arab terrorists, not that they were terrorests.
8 - Dave Nalle
Glad you looked into it, Jet. I did include a link to their own press release on their website, which should have given you a hint that BashBack! is very much for real.
Your last comments fit with exactly what I'm concerned about. Well, I'm not so bothered by the flamboyantly gay making all gay people look silly - that's a different issue. But what does concern me is when people resort to threats and violence in defense of a good cause. Doing so diminishes that cause and can negate the efforts of all of those who are working by more reasonable means to accomplish that same goal.
That's the problem I see here. These folks at BashBack! are picking up the tactics of the anarchist dickheads who tried to start riots and bombing at the Republican Convention earlier this year and it's not doing any good for them or their cause.
Dave
9 - Dave Nalle
J.C. No one is really going to compare these BasBack! activists to real terrorists. The problem is that they themselves are making that comparison by dressing as shown in the photo accompanying the article, which originates on their website.
They are also using tactics designed to terrorize and intimidate those they don't agree with, even if no violence is committed by them.
And as I pointed out in the article, dressed as they are and acting as they were, they are lucky they weren't mistaken for terrorists by an overzealous cop or security guard and shot.
All of this is why I think it's troubling to blur the line between activism and terrorism.
Dave
10 - Jet
As an out and (probably too) proud gay man it's very troubling to me to think that I'm prejudiced against those of my kind "so to speak".
I think of it like that no good fuckin' &%^$*@@# traitor Joe Lieberman who when out campaigning with McCain. We have to kiss his ass, and tread lightly because we need his caucus votes with us dems in case we need him for that magical number of 60... But if we can do without it or him another way, we'd boot the damned turn-coat out of our party in a heartbeat.
Why; because he's giving us a bad name. Just like these assholes BashBack are an embarrassment to gays in general.
You can almost hear the preachers grinning and pointing at the TV screen saying "See? What'd I tell you? Haven't I been warning you they're all like that all along?"
I have the same reaction when I notice the only thing a local TV news show is stock footage of drag queens when doing a story about gays, as I did every time I saw Lieberman standing behind McCain during his speaches...
Disgust
God that hurt...
11 - Ruvy
Jet,
I think of it like that no good fuckin' &%^$*@@# traitor Joe Lieberman who when out campaigning with McCain.
I know why Joe Lieberman is not my favorite fellow. But what have you against him? Just curious....
12 - Jet
He was a democrat, who turn-coated on his own party and became an Independant, then spit in our face by campaigning for McDain... a republican.
Joe Lieberman was also the 2000 vice presidential candidate with Al Gore, and we pinned a lot of hopes on him.
13 - Doug Hunter
Jet, take comfort that everyone experiences that with their cause (and it's part of the downside of the media coin). They don't focus on the 99% of the population that is sensible they pick out the radicals and go straight for them. This is unfortunate because then your enemies point to the TV and say 'see I told you so'. I think it's a testament to the gay rights movement that there haven't been more instances of idiocy like this. Any group with millions of people in it usually has a few morons, gays have kept theirs under wraps for the most part.
As a person who identifies with republicans (although I think healthcare should be treated like a right and am liberal on social issues) I get tired of seeing the two caricatures that always get dredged up for the benefit of the opponents. It's the radical retarded fundie and the racist redneck. The republicans I know aren't like that at all.
14 - Condor
Jet,
Lieberman is Lieberman because of his own chemistry. Nothing more or less than that. Everyone has chemistry and will act according to that chemistry. Violence has chemistry attached to it, as does Home or Hetro sexuality.
You hate Lieberman? Because of his chemistry? Go look in the mirror, do you have any qualms with your chemistry, or people who have different chemistry than you do? What's that called?
15 - Jet
Lieberman was a traitor to the Democratic party when he went independent and a traitor to both when he started showing up at republican events standing behind, making speaches for, and smiling and applauding for John McCain.
Chemistry be damned.
16 - Dave Nalle
I Joe Lieberman were a drag queen I might like him better.
Dave
17 - Ruvy
Thank you for the answers, Jet. I appreciate it.
Shabbat Shalom,
Reuven
18 - Lee Richards
Using nonviolent techniques, education, and passive resistance to gain the general sympathy and support needed to redress injustice are proven strategies.
Belligerent tactics that alienate don't work nearly as well, if at all.
19 - Dave Nalle
As an interesting update, a source in Lansing suggests that the church which was attacked wasn't actually all that much worse than other evangelical churches in the area and wasn't particularly known for their anti-gay agenda. They seem to have been targeted because they were big and rich and high profile.
Dave
20 - Dr Dreadful
"Gay activists can arm themselves easily enough and we're just fortunate that gun-toting gays like local blogger Big Gay Al..."
Dave, did you just out Barger?!!??
I thought he'd been professing his undying devotion to Sarah Palin a little too strenuously...
21 - Glenn Contrarian
Um, Dave -
How many people have gays killed for NOT being gay?
How many gays have homophobes killed for BEING gay?
The incident you described listed NO injuries to anyone in that church. In my opinion it was closer to civil disobedience than any real threat to someone's life.
The sad thing is that Bash Back!'s actions will backfire. As with all religions, the members are edified in that religion when they believe they are being persecuted. The best thing Bash Back! could have done was to hold peaceful demonstrations and do their best to educate those who hate them, for knowledge and education are surely the best inoculation against prejudice and discrimination.
22 - Baronius
Funny, no one's made the obvious comparison between these guys and Phelps's group. Peas in a pod.
23 - zingzing
except they aren't preaching hatred at funerals...
24 - Baronius
Yeah, but there are similarities, and they're both more interested in alienating outsiders than converting them. Above all, you know it'd drive them crazy to be compared to each other.
25 - Dave Nalle
How many people have gays killed for NOT being gay?
Very few to none.
How many gays have homophobes killed for BEING gay?
Too many?
What does this have to do with anything? Does having members of your group killed somehow justify killing random other people who committed no crime against you? Does it justify threatening or scaring other people who have done nothing to you?
Punishment for crimes should be directed at the specific criminal, not reworked into vague harassment of large and essentially unrelated groups of people.
The incident you described listed NO injuries to anyone in that church. In my opinion it was closer to civil disobedience than any real threat to someone's life.
I never said there was a direct threat to anyone's life, but the situation was provocative and threatening, and very difficult to justify on any rational basis.
Dave