After an attack on a Michigan church by gay activists, questions arise about what tactics are too extreme in a good cause.
Where do we draw the line between activism and terrorism? Events this past Sunday in Lansing, Michigan brought this question to mind, as gay activists from the group BashBack! staged a protest at a church service which was deliberately designed to look and feel a lot like a terrorist attack.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Polemicscat
If you start with a false assumption, you are bound to reach a false conclusion.
The idea that the public display of homosexual behavior is not detrimental to society should not be assumed to be true. To deny free speech to those who would condemn it by calling them bigots or homophobics is telling society that it must accept as true an unexamined proposition.
27 - Jet
Speaking of false assumptions, Polemicscat, that's about as ridiculous as it gets
28 - Cindy D
It's not hard to argue with anyone who would name himself after the Rand Cult protagonist.
29 - Jet
I hesitate to admit this, but you've lost me Cindy, who?
30 - zingzing
dave: "Does having members of your group killed or justify killing random other people who committed no crime against you? Does it justify threatening or scaring other people who have done nothing to you?"
dave says something coherent. rejoice! apply it in other places!
31 - Jet
I think it was just gas Zing
32 - Cannonshop
After looking at their website, and their stupid uniforms, and then looking at their actions, These guys obviously never caught the underlying irony of Tom Wolfe's "Radical Chic".
33 - Jet
Their goal appears to be to embarrass us, and confirm a lot of stereotypes.
34 - Glenn Contrarian
Dave -
The point was that conservatives seem to gleefully point out ANY unlawful conduct by those they don't like...but have a tendency to ignore FAR worse felonious conduct by those who share Republican beliefs.
It's just like so much else:
"Those d***ed tax-and-spend liberals!" But who has driven the country so deep in debt?
"Obama's going to shred the Constitution!" But who was it that screamed, “Stop throwing the Constitution in my face - It’s just a god****ed piece of paper!”? We now have no absolute right to habeus corpus, remember.
"ACORN's committing voter registration fraud on a vast scale!" But which party was committing voter suppression and election fraud affecting at least one hundred times as many actual votes?
"Obama's pallin' around with terrorists!" But whose husband BELONGED to a party that advocates secession from America, whose founder cursed America and the flag? And whose attacks on Barack Obama's patriotism provoked a spike in death threats against the future president, Secret Service agents revealed during the final weeks of the campaign.
Dave, I'm not trying to insult you...but the Republican party is full of so much hypocrisy and tries so hard to justify it by wrapping themselves in the flag.
35 - Dave Nalle
"Those d***ed tax-and-spend liberals!" But who has driven the country so deep in debt?
A small faction of Republicans working with the majority of the Democrats.
"Obama's going to shred the Constitution!" But who was it that screamed, "Stop throwing the Constitution in my face - It's just a god****ed piece of paper!"? We now have no absolute right to habeus corpus, remember.
A claim about Bush which has never been substantiated by any of the supposed witnesses and was likely fabricated by a known propagandist who has made up similar lies before.
"ACORN's committing voter registration fraud on a vast scale!" But which party was committing voter suppression and election fraud affecting at least one hundred times as many actual votes?
There was one case of Republican voter fraud that was prosecuted and dozens of cases of ACORN registration fraud prosecuted. And as I've pointed out before, so-called voter suppression has taken place on both sides and is generally not illegal.
"Obama's pallin' around with terrorists!" But whose husband BELONGED to a party that advocates secession from America, whose founder cursed America and the flag? And whose attacks on Barack Obama's patriotism provoked a spike in death threats against the future president, Secret Service agents revealed during the final weeks of the campaign.
Oh come on, such utter bullshit. It's not against the law or an act of terrorism to consider secession from the US, and the only attempt on Obama's life that got beyond random talk took place before Palin was nominated.
Dave, I'm not trying to insult you...
You insult all of our intelligence by repeating these ridiculous talking ponts.
but the Republican party is full of so much hypocrisy and tries so hard to justify it by wrapping themselves in the flag.
This applies equally to both political parties. But both parties also have lots of good, honest supporters. Condemning the parties as a whole and the good intentions of their members based on the corruption of some of those who have gotten into positions of power is narrow-minded, divisive and insulting.
It's particularly outrageous to use the misbehavior of some Republicans in power as a blanket excuse to hand power over to a group of people in the opposing party who are just as corrupt and whose intentions are to do far worse with less justification.
Dave
36 - Jet
Lest we forget that Mr. Nalle was the one to jump in with both feet screaming and pointing "SEE!!!" in an article spread far and wide on the internet when some woman lied about a B on her cheek and self-righteously tried to brand us all filthy liberal stalkers and bigots because she had a McCain bumpersticker on her car.
You're far to quick to judge there Dave... and you've got a track record now if playing "fast and loose" with unproven "facts"
37 - Jet
What the right wing majority here can't acknowledge from their bully pulpits, and probably never will is that the majority of American voters disagree with all of you, that 80 percent of Americans think Bush was the worst, most damaging president we've ever had, and rather than acknowledge that most of us disagree with your school yart bullshit, to the point of being blind to anything any rational being can try to tell you.
I'm (amongst others) getting really tired of the "he-man liberal haters club" here. Rush Limbaugh must be calling the plays from the wings and hidden behind some curtain.
Because of this situation, I'm seriously considering leaving BlogCritics, not to return unless some entertainment or science topic interests me...
... and trust me, I'm not alone
Jet Gardner
38 - Dr Dreadful
Aw, come on, Jet, you've made this threat before. And you know you can't stay away!
Besides, half the fun is exposing their bullshit for what it is. All you need is your wits about you and the willingness to do a little research.
If everyone thought your way, BC Politics would just be a right-wing talking shop, and we wouldn't want that to happen, now would we? Right?
:-)
39 - Jet
Doc, the frustration comes from my being able to see everyone's point of view and learning from it, but it's getting to the point where the other side of the argument has their fingers in their ears humming na na na na I can't hear you. na na na"
Frankly I'm tired of 20 paragraphs of the same reworded right wing bullshit on every string of this site, and if I can't make a contribution, why hang around. A DEBATE IS A 2-WAY conversation, and that's not happening here.
If you're ignored long enough, you tend to pick up your toys and leave the playground.
40 - Condor
Jet,
I agree, the election rheteric was almost unbearable. But....I really got to know just how screwed up and brainwashed both major party alcolytes really are.
41 - handyguy
My objection to this article and Dave's subsequent comments is that he seems to want to portray BashBack as somehow representative or typical of gay activists.
But, as he will probably have to admit...They aren't.
So this is just a bizarre [kind of funny, actually] sideshow story, not meaningful in any larger sense.
Which makes the title of the article offensive as well as dumb.
42 - Dave Nalle
Jet, given my positions which are wildly divergent from Rush and his dittoheads, and which you have the perceptive ability to have observed by now, you at least ought to be above writing me off as a doctrinaire defender of anything right wing, even if ideologues like Glenn prefer to deal in stereotypes. And you know damned well that I don't hate liberals - but I see very few real liberals in the Democratic establishment.
And Handy, my record on gay rights is pretty damned clear on this site. There's not one word I've written here which suggests that BashBack is typical. They're symptomatic of an unattractive trend in activism which isn't limited to the gay rights movement by any means.
Frustrated activists may eventually take things too far. This instance is an example of that. It's not the only example, and we're going to see more of them. Brace yourselves.
Dave
43 - Jet
Dave, whether you meant it as such or not, that's how it came off, that BashBack is typical of most gay organizations. I've been sort of seething since you replaced the amazon book I selected for my Obama piece with the picture of some Painted African tribesman (for which I got several unhappy e-mails)
I reacted to this before I took my 90mg of cymbalta today, so rather than being arogant and self-righteous and say "I'll give you the benifit of the doubt this time"
I'll say instead, let me re read the article and reserve my opinion for a calmer moment my friend.
Jet
PS I will reserve the opinion as concrete fact however that these ridiculous 20 paragraph comments on all strings are not only bothersome, but they're rarely read all the way through...
I'm talking about whole pages copied and pasted from a website on anarchy and sermans on why the Jewish Faith and practices are so far superior to anyone else's.
when I did that I'd get a terse note from Mr. Rose about just putting a URL to the article instead of posting the whole thing.
And they know who they are.
Wanna write and article-then write an article, but not in the comment section of someone else's article.
fini
44 - Dave Nalle
Dave, whether you meant it as such or not, that's how it came off, that BashBack is typical of most gay organizations.
That certainly wasn't my intention. I think my mention of the PinkPistols in the last paragraph makes that pretty clear.
I've been sort of seething since you replaced the amazon book I selected for my Obama piece with the picture of some Painted African tribesman (for which I got several unhappy e-mails)
When did I do that? I see the article I think you're talking about. The items you chose didn't have viable picture links. And the one I picked doesn't have a picture of an African tribesman. Take a closer look. That's a Japanese kamikaze pilot. Good grief.
Dave
45 - Jet
On old gay Texan undertaker realized that in these tough economic times even the funeral business was bad, what with cheap coffins and old Mexicans being shipped south of the border and all.
He finally got to the point that without a quick infusion of cash, his business would go belly up. One day in desparation he decided to claim that his Rolls Royce was stolen and he'd collect the insurance on it.
But the damned thing wouldn't start. He went back into the garage and drove his new Cadillac Hearse over to the river, let off the brake and watched it crash down an enbackment and disappear with a huge splash.
Upon returning home, he immediately called the cops and then reported the hearse stolen.
Two days later the cops recovered the Caddy down stream floating but intact at a boat marina and they arrested the old undertaker for insurance fraud.
The moral of this story would be
You can lead a hearse to water but you can't make it sink!
46 - Al Barger
Not to put too fine a point on it, but these jackasses got no right to impose themselves on a peaceable church like that. The proper response would be for the elders of the church to beat the devil out of these children acting out so rudely and disrespectfully in the house of God.
I don't know what kind of neighborhood this church was in, but it obviously wasn't rural southern Indiana. I WISH some of these ActUp type idiots would show up in Laurel. The folks at the First Baptist Church of Laurel are real nice folk, but I doubt their menfolk would just let these people act out like that in God's house and in front of their children. I imagine it'd end up with the womenfolk bending the silly faggots over their knees and whooping the fear of God into them.
47 - Jet
Ooooo big man, we've already made that point Al. We've already made the point that they are in the minority in terms of representing gays, their intellect, attitudes and their behavior.
You just needed the space to puff your chest up and had a manly excuse to use the word faggot?
Had you actually read Dave's article, you'd have known where it happened. As for you coming face to face with one of them, I dare say they would've been prepared going in to beat the piss out of you had you tried.
Faggot doesn't necessarily mean fairy-but I didn't expect you to know that.
48 - Al Barger
Really Jet, I'm so impressed with your manliness here. I don't care if dudes want to go have sex with other dudes, but I have low patience for the Act Up stuff. They need to work their Daddy issues out somewhere else than in the middle of someone else's church service. And the very least they've got coming is minor name calling.
And if you come crashing services in this manner in most of the churches I've attended, you'd probably better be bad enough to beat some people up as you claim. But I doubt it.
There are certainly gay men who are quite masculine. But they're likely not the ones involved in this Act Up baby nonsense. They're probably Marines. I'll make a special point of adding gay soldiers to my Thanksgiving list.
49 - Jet
Al, you're so out of touch and obviously still haven't read the article or you'd know it's BashBack not act up.
Your self-rightousness is showing. You don't need to actually read a text to judge it, you don't actually have to know what you're talking about to have and opinion of it.
typical
50 - Jet
By the way, had you bothered to read, (though that's probably beneath you) I've condemned those people and the tactics repeatedly.
had you bothered to read
51 - Dave Nalle
Al don' need no steenking reading. They don't cotton to none of that faggy literacy in southern Indayana.
Dave
52 - Jet
Trust me Dave, It's the home of Dan Quayle, I figured the rest out all by myself...
53 - Glenn Contrarian
Jet - that was priceless....
54 - Jet
Thanks Glen, I kinda liked it myself
55 - jay
Wow! A great opportunity to discuss what is appropriate behavior for activism.
Too bad the news example isn't developed into a deeper non-partisan discussion about such activities.
Compare the extremist Fred PHelps (the "God Hates Fags" minister), who's been arrested many times for assault. And what about the anti-abortion "activists" and their bombings, arson, vandalism, and assaults?
Of course, all of these types, including far right-meets-left anarchists and libertarians such as Timothy McVeigh, can be called terrorists. That sensationalist term plays pretty well in post-9/11 news consumer culture. But it's not a very deep (and thus balanced) exploration of a very complex moral issue. What a shame it's a lost opportunity.
56 - Dave Nalle
Jet, this was the example which was in the news. If another example was in the news you could use that as a starting point.
The failure to broaden the discussion rests with those who choose not to do so.
Dave
57 - Al Barger
Jet, again with the silly hostility and just making stuff up about not reading the article. I invoke Act Up as the generic original idea of what they're doing. It's Act Up type tactics. They're the original outfit famous for such foolishness back in the 80s - though I don't just remember even them actually going inside of churches.
I never said anything to imply that you support the Bash Back tactics - but you seem to be anxious to defend them or change the topic or condemn someone who would say that they need a good ass kicking.
And I have even a significantly lower opinion of Fred Phelps. He pretty well deserves whatever he gets.
And Jet, from your comments to me in this discussion among others, you certainly don't need to be condemning anyone else for being self-righteous or judgmental.
58 - Jet
Oh I love the holier than thous "How dare you speak to me in such a tone act" Anything but admit you're wrong eh Al?
I'll buy the generic ActUp bit, but your not knowing the location is a dead giveaway.
I'm showing you as much, if not more respect than you ever show me.
59 - Jet
I have no intention of defending BashBack [personal attack deleted], I was refering to you over macho threat that if you ever came face to face with them you'd turn them over your knee and spank them.
I belive my response to that was that in effect they'd probably wipe up the floor with you if you tried.
That's not a comment of support, that's a comment of dirision towards you and your holy roller attitude.
60 - Jet
By the way I don't fear God. God's not someone you're supposed to fear and if that's what you're teaching your kids, God help you.
My god is a god of love and acceptance of everything he created in his image, NOT what some moron pounding his fist against a bible says it means in his opinion.
A book that was compiled hundred/thousands of years after the actual events by storytellers who had their own agenda to add to the handed down events.
That's why so much is left OUT of the bible-like Jesus' teen years etc. After the apostles got done with their "Version" and then the Dead Sea Scrolls, then a thousand years later King James took his editing pen to it.
I don't call that a reliable source of information.
Even the story of Moses. Now how do you think a mention of something as huge as the pyramids didn't rate a mention? Probably because the writers never set foot in Egypt.
I hope you shake your bible enough for all the pages to fall out, because you never read it anyway.
61 - Dave Nalle
Jet:
Surely you know that the King James version was a special second revelation and is thus more true and accurate than the greek original.
Dave
62 - Jet
And the Latter Day Saint's version?
63 - Jet
So God didn't want us to know what a little terror Jesus was as a teenager?
64 - Jet
But the greek wasn't the original-Jesus didn't speak greek-Shirley you of all people would know the literal folly of translating from one language to another?
65 - Dave Nalle
Jet, have you never read the infancy gospels from the apocrypha? Good fun there.
God whispered the King James version in the ears of the writers directly, Jet. Surely you grasp that.
And greek was the original because Jesus never wrote anything down.
Dave
66 - Al Barger
Jet, I am less than impressed with your Biblical scholarship. Basically, you start from the premise that homosexuality is good and God surely has no problem with it. That can't be questioned. Then you go about figuring how to discredit this part and reinterpret that part and shoehorn stuff to make it fit where it don't. That's no kind of Christianity.
Not being specifically a believer myself, I am free to honestly see what is in the Bible and yet be cool with homosexuality. You can interpret the Bible in more and less severe ways, but you just can't honestly say that the Bible does not represent homosexual behavior as a sin as well as is every other kind of out-of-wedlock behavior. Fornication BAD. Or perhaps you can explain how Jesus really intended to support gay marriage.
But again, don't shoot or whine or act fake macho with the messenger. If you've got a problem with the Biblical stance on homosexuality, then recognize that as your issue. It's not ol' Al just making stuff up.
And y'all are not dealing with reality if you try to play it off that Biblical injunctions against homosexual behavior are just mistakes of translation. Don't kid yourselves. The Bible is what it is. A is A.
67 - zingzing
al, I am less than impressed with your Biblical scholarship. Basically, you start from the premise that homosexuality is bad and God surely has a problem with it. That can't be questioned. Then you go about figuring how to forget about this part and reinterpret that part and shoehorn stuff to make it fit where it don't. That's a messed up kind of Christianity.
yeah, yeah, i read the rest of your post, but that was too easy to pass up. and really, the bible doesn't have a damn thing to say about homosexuality other than what it has to say about sexuality in general. and trust me, i've done much worse things to a girl than stick it in her rear, yet i i don't have to fear i'll get a beat down from club carrying church members.
68 - handyguy
Al shows his ignorance regarding ACT-UP. They saved many hundreds, perhaps thousands of lives, employing attention-getting tactics when attention was not being paid to AIDS by the government or the pharma industry. And they got results.
Using an inaccurate comparison between the great and noble work ACT-UP did and the cartoon-level nonsense protest Dave describes in this article...well, it's beyond offensive, and totally unnecessary.
Read up or shut up about ACT-UP, bub. You are vividly displaying what you do not know.
69 - Jet
Handy, his mind is closed. Al believes he has learned all he needs to know and has pompously discarded every thing else.
frankly I've become bored with him.
70 - Dave Nalle
From what I understand ACT UP had the mission of raising awareness of gay rights and AIDS, and it did a good job, even if it was confrontational. The situation it faced 10 or 20 years ago was very different from the situation now. They faced much greater challenges and had bigger issues to promote.
If anything they did too well, we devote so much money to AIDS research - far beyond any other disease except breast cancer - that other research goes unfunded. The money is way out of proportion to the threat at least in the civilized world. But it has worked. If you've been following the news, they have basically found a cure for AIDS. The catch is that most of the time it kills you - but you don't have AIDS when you die. However, having gotten that far, it's clearly just a matter of a relatively small while before they find a way to apply the same methods (HIV-immune stem cell transplants) more safely.
Dave
71 - Jet
I believe the issue Dave was that Al would rather lump the two organizations together rather than admit he didn't know or care what the difference between the two were.
72 - Jet
Jesus declares that the person judging will be judged because judging assumes a divine prerogative; final judgment belongs to God alone, and those who seek to judge others now will answer then for usurping God's position
73 - Dave Nalle
Way too much judging there, Jet. No wonder I'm not into this whole 'god' thing.
Dave
74 - Jet
Considering how much judgment I'd taken on this website lately, I'd say turnabout is fair play
75 - Donn
Gays are savages. Gay savagry and terror have been occurring for many years, but have largely been unreported until the Internet made possible the reporting of stories like this. If whites stormed a black church the National Guard would be mobilized and the story would be on the front pages of every newspaper. Whites get no such legal protection. Not until "straight" white people accept the fact that Gay savages and their sponsors are waging a civil war of domination against us and respond appropriately will this fight be decided.