It's time for gay Republicans to be more like Barney Frank and less like Mark Foley.
In the midst of an emerging scandal, Congressman Mark Foley (R-FL) abruptly resigned from the House of Representatives on Friday. News leaked out this week that Foley had been sending suggestive emails and engaging in sexual online chat sessions with underage congressional pages. The story was made public by one of the former pages on an anti-Republican headhunter website CREW. It was then picked up and investigated by ABC News.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments176 - Dave Nalle
Handy, I thought the times article made Foley seem a bit more sympathetic, though awfully superficial. It did make him seem like he had some value as a lawmaker despite his problems.
Dave
177 - Clavos
Dave 176,
From local newspaper reports (Miami Herald & South Florida Sun-Sentinel), Foley was quite well liked by his constituents prior to the revelation of the scandal.
Haven't seen any post-scandal poll data.
178 - Baronius
Dave, are you saying that the only people who disagree with you are Bliffle and Shark, or the only *gay* people who disagree with you are Bliffle and Shark? If the first case, what about the rest of us? If the second case, don't straight's opinions count on this matter?
179 - Dave Nalle
I just identified Bliffle and shark as specific people who disagree with me. As far as I know they're straight. Doesn't mean there aren't others. But I bet you disagree with me for different reasons than they do.
Dave
180 - Jet in Columbus
Dave says...Roger, unless I'm mistaken the two gay people commenting on this thread actually more or less agree with me and only a few ranting idiots who didn't understand the article
Indeed.
Dave and I don't often agree politically, but in this case I do agree with him. This isn't a matter of HOMO sexuality or politics-it's a matter of being honest with yourself and the people you serve.
Why do you think Barney Frank's been elected so many times?
Jet
(Now remember Dave the deal we made is that I get to disagree with your next article... okay?)
181 - Dave Nalle
Exactly, Jet. That's why I used Frank as my comparison in the article rather than one of the other sex scandalizers in Congress. He's the best positive example of how Congressmen ought to handle their sexuality.
Dave
182 - Clavos
Dave,
An off-topic question:
Why the limit on links in a comment?
183 - Dave Nalle
Not my call, but I suspect the limit on links in comments is because there are certain spambots which are identified by the large number of links they put in their posts, so keeping it low weeds them out.
Dave
184 - Arch Conservative
Jet you said:
Why do you think Barney Frank's been elected so many times?
It's because the people of Massachusetts don't really care what you do as long as you're a very liberal democrat.
Ted Kennedy killed a woman with his car and this doesn't seem to bother the voters of Massachusetts.
Frank is a liberal incumbent that's why he keeps getting re-elected. in fact I'd venture to say that if Frank were caught in a sex scandal with a 16 year old congressional page it would not hurt his chances of getting re-elected one bit in Massachusetts.
185 - Michael J. West
There's a question here that still needs a definitive answer: is Foley a hebephile or not?
If he is, then the question of his homosexuality, closeted or not, is frankly not that relevant.
186 - Michael J. West
Perhaps I should clarify that last comment so I don't get my head bitten off.
As Dave has repeated, this is not a pedophilia issue. Pedophilia is an attraction to prepubescent children. It MIGHT be hebephilia, as RJ suggested--hebephilia being an attraction to pubescent children. And although 16 is the age of consent in DC, there is--as I understand it--a good deal of ambiguity with that age group, from the psychological standpoint. And with Foley's attraction to them, especially considering that his track record thus far seems to be EXCLUSIVELY 16-year-olds.
Dave, your thesis makes a lot of sense to me: that Foley was simply a closeted gay man who preyed on 16-year-olds because they were a vulnerable, intimidatable group over whom he had control. I know that pubescent males, for example, commonly act out sexual curiosity on younger kids for that very reason.
But I'm not as sure as you are that that's why Foley did what he did. It's a very strong possibility but it's not so far-fetched that he's just a hebephile. In which case, as I said, it doesn't make much difference whether he was gay or not.
187 - Bliffle
Nalle: Every time you mention pedophilia you minimize it ("..appearance of pedophilia..") and every time you mention gayness you emphasize it. You are clearly attempting to shift the "appearance" of Foley from pedophile to gay.
"It's not a pedophilia issue, it's an abuse of power issue. And it's an abuse of power issue primarily because Foley is in the closet, not because he is gay. If he were openly gay then the problem would be much less."
Would "the problem" be much less if he were a hetero dealing with a female page?
If Foley were openly pedophiliac, not a closet ped, would that be better?
188 - Bliffle
Nalle: "...only a few ranting idiots who didn't understand the article (bliffle) or had preconceptions and prejudices (shark) disagree with the basic premise that Foley being closeted contributed to the problem."
I reckon this slander entitles me to a free shot at Dave Nalle. First of all, I understand your article perfectly: Foleys crime is that he is a closeted gay, NOT that he imposes on very young pages in the manner of a pedophile. That's nice: it excuses him from the gallows and only requires a few hours of Community Service, perhaps picking up gum wrappers along the highway for a day or two.
IMO Nalles constant attempts at exculpating republican miscreants is not because he is a Libertarian or Conservative but because he is simply an anti-democrat. He's not even an independent, which we called "crypto-conservative" when I was active in Republican causes. Cryptos grumble about reps as well as dems, but can be depended on to vote rep if you can get them to the polls. But they don't defend rep crooks.
Now Dave has descended to the lowest depths of slander: blaming the victim. Even quoting his daughter to advance the traditional pedophile alibi: "the little tease tempted me: I couldn't resist!" Dave is not an idiot. On the contrary, he is intelligent and experienced. But he is a slime. By defending the indefensible he has become a monster. No matter how clever his words, no matter how appealing his flimsy syllogisms, he is unscrupulous. For that, I don't think he should be hanged, but merely shunned for his sophistry.
189 - Jet in Columbus
ArchBoingBat-You pontificating that Ted Kennedy killed a woman when he wasn't tried, charged or convicted is about as stupid and false as my saying George Bush joined the National Guard to avoid going to Vietnam and lied about actually serving.
Wait a minute, maybe I better use a different example.
You are one of the most self-righteous hypocrits this site has ever seen. Just because you say it's so doesn't make it so your majesty.
I bet you jack off every night looking at yourself in the mirror don't you?
190 - Clavos
ArchBoingBat-You pontificating that Ted Kennedy killed a woman when he wasn't tried, charged or convicted
Technically you're right, Jet.
But Mary Jo Kopechne did die in his car that night. And she died because he drove the car off the bridge and into the water; she then drowned while he swam ashore.
Those are facts, which are not disputed by anyone.
And Kennedy did plead guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, for which his driver's license was suspended for a year.
191 - steve
why do you think ted hasnt run for prez? simply because of an incident in which a young girl was murdered due to his lack of judgement. id say that is a TAD bit worse than "draft-dodging" which our former president clinton is also guilty of...its funny that for some reason...liberals dont identify with this shocking information.
192 - Dave Nalle
Bliffle, don't take it personally, but I think that on this issue you're at least a little bit irrational. Your perspective is peculiar and you seem to have a personal axe to grind which is causing you to read all sorts of stuff into what I've written that isn't there.
Nalle: Every time you mention pedophilia you minimize it ("..appearance of pedophilia..") and every time you mention gayness you emphasize it.
Let's see an example of the latter. I agree I minimized the pedophilia aspect, because it IS NOT pedophilia. Not only was there no sex, but the kids were over the age of consent at the time. As a legal matter it's just not pedophilia. I'm not so much minimizing it as countering the exaggeration others are applying to it. And yes, what's more, I do not believe that sex with 16 year olds is pedophilia. It may be creepy and repugnant by our current standards, but biologically and historically it's not outside the norm.
You are clearly attempting to shift the "appearance" of Foley from pedophile to gay.
No, I'm not. I haven't once said anything that suggested that gays are inherently prone to pedophilia. My argument is that it is the being in the closet which is the problem, not being gay. That should be overwhelmingly clear by now. Others seem to have gotten it, why don't you? I challenge to you find ONE statement from me during my time on BC in any article or comment which can reasonably be categorized as homophobic. To the contrary, I have written multiple articles in support of gay rights.
Would "the problem" be much less if he were a hetero dealing with a female page?
I think I answered that already, but if Foley were out of the closet then the situation would be better because it would be the same as if he were a hetero dealing with a female page. There'd have been no issue of longterm concealment of sexuality.
If Foley were openly pedophiliac, not a closet ped, would that be better?
If we were dealing with pedophelia here then it certainly would have been better because then Foley never would have been elected to office and would probably be in jail.
I reckon this slander entitles me to a free shot at Dave Nalle.
It's only a slander if it's not true, and your reaction to my post and comments has been entirely idiotic.
First of all, I understand your article perfectly: Foleys crime is that he is a closeted gay, NOT that he imposes on very young pages in the manner of a pedophile. That's nice: it excuses him from the gallows and only requires a few hours of Community Service, perhaps picking up gum wrappers along the highway for a day or two.
Wrong again. It's not a crime to be closeted, it's just a very bad idea. Nothing that Foley has done is ever going to get him jail time no matter how you look at it. The worst he might face is a civil suit for damages over sexual harassment.
I'm not defending Foley, because there's nothing to defend. I'm condemning him on entirely different and in many ways more serious grounds, for abuse of power and pathological dishonesty which should disqualify him from public service.
IMO Nalles constant attempts at exculpating republican miscreants
Again, I'm not defending Foley, I'm criticising him on different and IMO more important issues.
is not because he is a Libertarian or Conservative but because he is simply an anti-democrat. He's not even an independent, which we called "crypto-conservative" when I was active in Republican causes. Cryptos grumble about reps as well as dems, but can be depended on to vote rep if you can get them to the polls. But they don't defend rep crooks.
Again, you've misread me. I'm a Libertarian more than anything else, and as a Libertarian I don't find the free and consensual association of two individuals of legal age through the internet all that troubling, regardless of their relative ages.
Now Dave has descended to the lowest depths of slander: blaming the victim. Even quoting his daughter to advance the traditional pedophile alibi: "the little tease tempted me: I couldn't resist!"
I quoted her take on the situation as peculiar. I pointedly did not say I agreed with it. However, she did have a point. What the hell is the former page doing chatting about sex with Foley if he's bothered by it. AIM has a mute button and teens know how to use it.
Dave is not an idiot. On the contrary, he is intelligent and experienced. But he is a slime. By defending the indefensible he has become a monster. No matter how clever his words, no matter how appealing his flimsy syllogisms, he is unscrupulous. For that, I don't think he should be hanged, but merely shunned for his sophistry.
I'm still waiting to hear exactly what the 'indefensible' thing I defended is.
Dave
193 - Jet in Columbus
she died in his car she was NOT murdered in his car
194 - Clavos
Arch didn't say "murdered;" he said "killed." That's true, and not even disputed by Kennedy.
195 - Jet in Columbus
You know this is the typical stupid republican tactic, change the subject when you can't argue with it. Ted Kennedy has absofuckinglootly nothing to do with this conversation unless he's in the closet, which I sincerely doubt.
Mr. Nalle has made a valid point with this string and rather than admit it, you try to side track the conversation.
just like what Hastert did today, turning his little press conferrence into a political stomp speech bragging about all the Congress did.... Last Friday.
196 - Clavos
Who's changing the subject, Jet?
I merely pointed out that your comment #189 to Arch was not correct.
I didn't change any subject.
Oh, and I'm not a Republican.
And you of all people should know that I could care less what any person's sexual orientation is.
Come to think of it, I don't like pedophiles, necrophiles or coprophiles, however.
197 - MCH
"As Dave has repeated, this is not a pedophilia issue. Pedophilia is an attraction to prepubescent children. It MIGHT be hebephilia, as RJ suggested--hebephilia being an attraction to pubescent children."
- Michael J. West
Umm, "Scumbag" is more appropriate, actually.
198 - Jet in Columbus
Tell me something MCH do you have a chorus of Beavus and Buttheads giggling in your head as you type that shit?
Heh heh heh heh he said scumbag.
Shirley you can come come up with SOMETHING more intelligent than that? ... or am I misjudging you?
199 - MCH
Nope, that's about as smart as I get, Jet. I don't believe in using a bunch of fancy words or pyschologies for an elected official (whose going to end up with a fortune just on his pension alone that we give him) who trolls for boys young enough to be his grandsons.
Scumbag is all I can come up with. Sorry to disappoint you.
200 - Jet in Columbus
I thought so.
So, it's okay for a straight guy to troll for girls young enough to be their granddaughters as long as their of legal age, especially when they're answering back his text messages and e-mails, but not a gay guy.
Typical hetrosexual double standard...
201 - MCH
When did I say that?
202 - Jet in Columbus
who trolls for boys young enough to be his grandsons... they're of legal age at the time.
IT may not have been your idea of "moral" but it was legal
203 - Scott
"Ted Kennedy killed a woman with his car and this doesn't seem to bother the voters of Massachusetts"
"Arch didn't say "murdered;" he said "killed." That's true, and not even disputed by Kennedy"
The key word here is "with." He implies Kennedy murdered (or killed) a woman "with" his car. I think the correct phrase would be "there was a woman who died in Ted Kennedy's car." Ted didn't kill her "with" his car. Now, Laura Bush, she did kill someone "with" her car.
204 - Michael J. West
Goddamnit, I made a compelling point in #186--a damn compelling point--and then watched as it got hijacked by Bliffle, MCH, and Arch Conservative: people who apparently don't understand the concept of nuance. What kind of fair is that?
205 - Nancy
That's right: if we're going to dredge up good ol' Ted, we can also bring up & harp on Laura Bush's manslaughter of her boyfriend. They're both equally non-sequitur to this conversation & thread.
Having finished that, it's a pity Foley felt he had to stay in the closet. I have no doubt he would have been happier & his situation a lot healthier & more productive if he had been Out. I suspect this is more a product of being a Republican than anything else. The GOP is notoriously hostile to gays, and all I can think is it must be hell to have to belong to a party that thinks you're scum. Were he Out, he could probably have led as useful & productive a professional life as Frank. Perhaps he should have switched to Independent or even become a conservative Dem...there are a few, after all.
About the business of chasing interns I'm not so sure. I doubt that has anything to do with his gayness; I suspect that is a whole 'nother problem in his sexual roster, and one he made little or no effort to control or repress, and for that he does indeed deserve to hang, as it were. You just DON'T go after people subordinate to you, or under 21 - even if they are technically 'of the age of consent'. It was begging for trouble, and I'm sure as a normally intelligent person he was well aware of it.
The larger & more important sin here is not Foley's, but Hastert's: failure to do anything about it, and then trying to cover up/spin/lie about it. He and the other GOP leaders were obviously far more concerned about retaining power than they were about the public good & the safety of the interns, and for THAT they deserve richly to go down. Public service has no place for men who value personal aggrandizement & power over the welfare of people in their care.
206 - Dave Nalle
But I'm not as sure as you are that that's why Foley did what he did. It's a very strong possibility but it's not so far-fetched that he's just a hebephile. In which case, as I said, it doesn't make much difference whether he was gay or not.
I'm certainly not going to say that my theory derives from revealed truth. It's believable, but there could be other things in play here. We don't really know how twisted Foley is. He may be a true pedophile who went after pages as a relatively safe alternative to what he really wanted. There are a lot of possibilities.
But i think the fact that he's a closeted gay does make a difference, because being closeted he was more inclined to conceal his activities and lie to the party leadership and the public. Maybe it's a commentary on the times, but in the 70s and 80s congressmen had relatively open gay and straight affairs with pages and pretty much got away with it because it was done more or less in the open. It's the secretiveness from Foley and the GOP leadership which makes this situation more explosive.
Dave
207 - Michael J. West
But i think the fact that he's a closeted gay does make a difference, because being closeted he was more inclined to conceal his activities and lie to the party leadership and the public.
It's possible that his being a closeted gay man was the motivator for his concealment...but how about his co-chairmanship of the Congressional Missing and Exploited Children's Caucus? Don't you think that also gave him pretty good reason to hide it?
Maybe it's a commentary on the times, but in the 70s and 80s congressmen had relatively open gay and straight affairs with pages and pretty much got away with it because it was done more or less in the open.
I think an important difference here is that in the past, those congressmen weren't serial pursuers of 16-year-old pages. Outwardly, it would seem that Foley was. Was it because he could manipulate them? Or because he was specifically attracted to them? I don't know.
208 - Jet in Columbus
Michael J. West-I feel for you buddy-I feel for you
209 - Michael J. West
Jet, you always were one of my favorite commenters.
210 - Jet in Columbus
I just get pissed when if they can't argue a valid point they try to distract the subject.
211 - Jet in Columbus
Dave Nalle is absolutely right, having been a closeted gay, I can tell you that you're constantly lying and denying your true self. Constantly on your guard that someone might find out.
One lie leads to another and another. I got so sick of it and the accompanying paranoia that I finally just stopped.
I have no pity for closeted gays or ones who claim to be "bi" hoping that that will give them some sort of social acceptability. Anyone capable of keeping up appearances like that is capable of lying about anything...
But then again he was a republican.
I'm getting so weary of this string, because I like a good INTELLIGENT opponent during an argument and unfortunately Nalle and I seem to be on the same side.
drat
I'll tell you something else too people. I don't post remarks or pontificate loudly on someone's string trying to tout my OPINIONS as fact.
I also don't claim to be the know all be all font of all knowledge like some assholes who think they can post anything and expect people to accept that it carved in stone.
I have the balls to admit when I'm wrong, which is why I am proud to state loudly and proudly that
212 - Michael J. West
I like a good INTELLIGENT opponent during an argument
Well, Jet, I'm not exactly an opponent, per se, but I am suggesting an alternative explanation. Does that count?
213 - Jet in Columbus
Please Michael, not in front of the Klingons!
214 - Jet in Columbus
Speaking of the elephant in the room...
No sooner did Congress authorize construction of a 700-mile fence on the U.S.-Mexico border last week than lawmakers rushed to approve separate legislation that ensures it will never be built, at least not as advertised, according to Republican lawmakers and immigration experts.
GOP leaders have singled out the fence as one of the primary accomplishments of the recently completed session. Many lawmakers plan to highlight their $1.2 billion down payment on its construction as they campaign in the weeks before the midterm elections.
That's only the first two paragraphs... there's more.
Happy Dave?
215 - Dave Nalle
Happy like hell. That just means they'll spend the money and do nothing meaningful with it. I'd rather they spent the money and built the stupid wall than waste our time with bullshit posing. This reminds me a lot of the levee building in New Orleans where a hell of a lot of money gets appropriated to build the same old inadequate system.
Dave
216 - Jet in Columbus
No no... I meant that I hadn't copied the whole article
217 - Michael J. West
Sheesh. This thread is dead. I'm going to listen to Lassiter.
218 - RogerMDillon
"Let's hear your argument for why it's a good idea for gay lawmakers to stay in the closet."
While we are in agreement that in an ideal world it would be great for gay lawmakers to come out of the closet, you have it backwards on to reach that goal.
Rather than tell gays to come out, why not ask the people who cause gays to stay in the closet to open their hearts and accept them? It's easy for you to put the onus on gay people because you have no idea or understanding of what you are asking of them. Ask Matthew Sheppard how easy it is to come out in a red state.
Is it really just a coincidence that gay Republicans are in the closet or could it be that it was what they needed to do to be accepted into the party? I'm not saying all Republicans have an issue with gay people, but there's obviously enough.
219 - Dave Nalle
Party leaders certainly have no problem with openly gay legislators. The voters may be more of a mixed bag. But I know of no policy or platform plank which suggests that gay republicans should stay in the closet. That's a matter of personal choice, and I think they're making the wrong one.
And Shepard wasn't killed because he came out. Shepard was killed - according to the testimony in the trial and later comments by an eyewitness - basically because the two guys wanted to rob him. The ridiculous and offensive gay rage defense was basically dreamed up for the trial.
Dave
220 - Jet in Columbus
From the official website...
Matthew was lured from a campus bar shortly after midnight on October 7 by Aaron McKinney and Arthur Henderson who told him they were gay. He was driven to a remote area near the Sherman Hills neighborhood east of Laramie, tied to a split-rail fence, tortured, beaten and pistol-whipped by his attackers, while he begged for his life. He was then left for dead in near freezing temperatures. For the rest of the article on the official website click anywhere in the colored section.
Matthew was singled out because he was gay.
221 - Michael J. West
The killers' girlfriends also testified at the trial that they had been specifically planning to rob a gay man.
Of course, if it wasn't about homosexuality before, Fred Phelps and his wacko asshole followers certainly made it about homosexuality post-facto.
222 - zingzing
oh, dave... how blind are you? if they wanted to rob him, they would rob him, not tie him to a fucking fence and beat him to death! fucking hell. open your fucking eyes.
223 - Lady Dragonfyre
Dave:
Here's a third gay perspective . . . well, a bi one.
He could just as easily meet someone via IM who is legal, and NOT under his authority.
Whatever pressures he felt as a closeted Republican male he had a CHOICE whether or not to act on whatever inclinations he had running through his head.
Perhaps if Foley was thinking with his head instead of his penis, he would've made the right choice.
224 - Dave Nalle
He could just as easily meet someone via IM who is legal, and NOT under his authority.
Exactly, LD. Which is exactly why being in the closet and needing that additional protection is such a bad idea.
Dave
225 - Dave Nalle
Matthew was singled out because he was gay.
The killers' girlfriends also testified at the trial that they had been specifically planning to rob a gay man.
Their testimony went into more detail than that after the fact, and what they said illustrates how the Shepard case relates to the Foley business.
Supposedly they went after him not because of his gayness, but because they thought that they could get away with it more easily because he was gay. So it wasn't so much to 'punish' him for being gay as you'd expect in a pure hate crime, but because being gay made him more vulnerable.
I can't really speak to the psychology of the whole sick mess. There probably was an element of fag bashing as well. But what the incident points out is the abuse of power which the stygma attached to homosexuality encourages.
They figured that no one would care what happened to Shepard because he was gay or that he wouldn't fight back because he was gay. In the same way, Foley figured the pages would be ashamed to inform on him. It's part of the same syndrome.
Because they are afraid of social stygmatization gays remain silent and they stay in the closet and they end up more vulnerable as a result. If they were more open, then public attitudes would have to change and they would eventually be less likely to be victimized.
Admittedly, I'm not gay. But the social logic of this seems undeniable.
Dave