In the tradition of their 1948 decision on interracial marriage, the California Supreme Court has ruled for gay marriage rights.
As they did in 1948 when they struck down the state ban on interracial marriage twenty years ahead of the rest of the nation, the California Supreme Court today declared that it was a violation of basic civil rights to deny gay Californians the right to marry members of the same sex.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Zedd
Governing IS social engineering.
Is it me?
27 - Clavos
Governing IS social engineering.
These days, it is, Zedd; you're right.
But it shouldn't be. When a government begins to dabble in social engineering, it is embarking on the road to oppression.
That's what 1984, Brave New World, and Animal Farm were about, as well as countless sci-fi and philosophical works.
I agree with Dave and Dan on that one.
28 - Irene Wagner
If the court decided that churches were legally bound to perform same-sex marriages, or if it ruled that preaching from the pulpit against homosexual acts was a hate crime---something like that has happened in Canada---then there'd be a reason for Christians to be running around getting petitions signed. I'd sign a petition like that.
That not what's going on with the recent California ruling, though. I'm not sure that a California marriage affords any more rights than a civil union, that seems to be a debatable point at the moment, but even if all the ruling amounts to is that gays get to marry and then kiss in front of the Pasadena Court House, all in your face, so what? Christians are preaching and waving Bibles aloft on the street, also in your face. Some are also expressing their concern for the rights of the unborn in front of abortion clinics--in your face, again, albeit from a court-prescribed distance.
You still have the legal right to offend people, too, Christian.
What are we American Christians afraid of, Sodom and Gomorrah Redux? The US broke treaty after treaty with the Native Americans, millions of viable--what shall I call them--humanesque beings?--have been aborted. The US invasion of Iraq has resulted in 1,209,263 Iraqi civilian deaths. God has restrained any impulse to annihilate the US through all that. We don't need to be kicking sinners around because we think we'll make God mad if we don't.
Jesus' way of changing things is by grace and truth, not Law.
29 - Zedd
Gentlemen,
Governing has always been social engineering.
Governments organize societies. They set boundaries and provide opportunity. Kingdoms relegated the stations of the people born to them. Serfdom the same. Democracies do the same. Engineering (the science) uses natural laws to formulate structures by which things should function. Sounds like governance to me. Perhaps I'm missing something.
30 - Irene Wagner
Speaking of the government as Social Engineer. How about the state of Texas getting away with tearing babies-- in many cases permanently"away from their under-aged mothers who belong to the FLDS (a fundamentalist Mormon sect that practices polygamy)? Even the socialist…I mean social workers involved are having their sleep disturbed.
There are several experiments going on at the same time. I repeat what other people have said here: I may not agree/disagree with homosexual couplings, or polygamy, or the custom of taking fourteen year old girls to wife (though it wasn’t so very long ago that this practice was considered to be perfectly acceptable), but it troubles me that the government gets to decide who gets married and who is allowed to parent. Even if the fourteen year old had been coerced into the marriage, taking her baby away from her is worse.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if California, a big influential state, went one step further and decided that Christian adoption agencies could not discriminate against same-sex couples, while Texas, another big influential state, persisted in removing kids from their bio-moms because of their religion? Do anti-gay marriage Christian activists not realize that their passionate efforts to support the government’s right to define marriage and fit parenthood might one day come ‘round to bite them in the buttocks?
And I wonder how delighted truly libertarian homosexual couples are with the California court's recent decision.
31 - Zedd
Irene,
In this sect, the kids are not raised by their mothers. The leaders decided who was to raise whom. In many cases there was communal rearing.
The babies were not separated from their young Moms. They are UNITED with their moms. The problem was that no one would reveal their identity so no one knew who was related to whom. The girls were then told that if they reveal their identity they would be united with their children. That is how the age of the moms in many cases was discovered.
32 - Clavos
Good points all, Irene.
You raise an interesting point about Christian adoption agencies; one that has already had governments try to force Catholic agencies to allow same sex adoptions, resulting in controversy both here in the US and in the UK.
33 - Zedd
The entire matter about gay adoption is problematic indeed. We don't know enough about what single gender rearing does to the species. How is an agency to decide if a single gender couple is BETTER at parenting than a standard couple, all other things being equal.
34 - Lumpy
Zedd is so indoctrinated in radical statism that he cannot even imagine any alternative.
35 - Dr Dreadful
Lumpy, Zedd's a woman. Surely you should know that by now. Do pay attention!
36 - Irene Wagner
Zedd and Clavos, Yes. The UK has gone too far in interfering with Catholic adoption agencies. You're right Zedd, nobody knows what's best without experimentation. Christian adoption agencies are doing what they think is best for the kids by sticking to the traditional route, including, I would assume, insisting that the adoptive parents believe in Jesus. Homosexuals who, after the test tube route, can't produce their own bio kids surely have other adoption agencies who would be willing to put kids in their care. My gut feeling is that most of the kids brought up by gays will turn out no worse than any of the rest of us whose upbringings were nonconventional in any of a variety of ways. Still, why do they need to go after Christian adoption agencies?
Zedd, My bad. Had I correctly posted the link to the Austin Statesman, you would've
known that FLDS mothers were INDEED separated from their moms. The person interviewed in the article was one of the social workers charged with executing that separation, and she's claiming that her fellow workers are experiencing PSTD because the separations were INDEED wrenching. So...let's try this again. Third time's a charm.
37 - Irene Wagner
On the other hand, Christian adoption agencies might THINK they know what's best for the kids, but when they start letting the state tell them what to do, they really make a mess of things.
We've found an acre of common ground today, Clavos and Zedd. Good work!
38 - Zedd
Irene,
I missed the part where it says that the teen moms had their infants taken away from them.
Those moms in the article allowed their children to be molested. Who cares if they have PTSD because of the raid.
I know.... I'm the weirdo for thinking so.
39 - Irene Wagner
No Zedd, you're not a weirdo for thinking so, because you believe it's true, and if it were true, you'd be absolutely right in separating those babies from their moms. Although the investigation started with a "confession" from a "member" who has never been identified, it's looking like there is ZERO evidence that any of the children on that compound were being abused. And now they're being farmed out to foster homes, and some are up for adoption permanently.
Read the "mess of things" link in #37, Zedd. Or not. It won't be the first time the rest of the country has had to look the other way while some overbearing ham-fisted Texans took a wrecking ball to families "for the good of the children."
One of the times it happened, they had some help from Janet Reno.
40 - Dave Nalle
Although the investigation started with a "confession" from a "member" who has never been identified
Actually, the accuser has been identified and she's not a member, but rather an anti-polygamy fanatic from Colorado.
That said, there are still pregnant 13-15 year olds involved here and by any standard that's a crime.
Dave
41 - Doug Hunter
Yes, and looking at the facts perhaps you should consider seperating 12-15 year old girls until you get things sorted out. Why then did the state take all the kids including infants and boys, etc?
This is an egregious violation by the state punishing an entire community for the actions of some within it. The fact that there is little outrage only reinforces my belief that our current society is doomed to the curse of statism. The best plan is to stop fighting it and become part of it I suppose.
An interesting note you may not know, of the 2 girls who have actually given birth in state custody both have been determined to be adults (age 22 in one case). The state is 0-2 at this point. Actual facts rather than accusations are hard to find here but my gut tells me the sex and underaged part has been sensationalized and in the end they will find a handful of underage marriages and a bit higher rate of teen pregancies than usual, nothing more.
42 - Doug Hunter
Also, the 22 year old woman still has to file court documents just to have a shot at getting free herself, in any case her newborn child will remain in state custody according to CPS.
There aren't words to describe how wrong this is. Oh wait, but it could never happen to you, best not worry about it.
43 - Clavos
You know, Doug, you present a very good acse in the previous two comments, with a very impassioned tone to them, but the cheap shot ad hominem at the end of the second comment demeans your message.
44 - Douglas Mays
Oh gosh. The micromanagement of homophobia, basically.
Look, homo or heterosexual. Treat it all the same. Because it is. It is all about that eternal soul mate life partner thing. Human bonding to a more evolved existance.
Some are 'chemicalized' toward the same sex, some are not. I have a few set of homosexual friends (male and female) who have had their own child together. Everything is fine. Quality lifestyles and family situations. What is the bfd?
Can't Cindy and I just get back to talking about blonde hairy boobs? Can't we outlaw and expose ALL various kinks of the sexual world? Like any heterosexual that likes diapers should definatley be chastized. How about those who like to be pee'd on?
Why stop at homosexuality? And you know, that is what the whole fucked up attitude is about. There is a lot of stuff people don't get about sex. You all better start evolving.
Cindy McBoobs, does this fit along that 'strange comprehension' you mentioned?
figure it out, people...
DM
45 - Doug Hunter
Clav,
Sorry if I seem 'impassioned', what is happening to this group simply because they don't share our same cultural values is simply heinous. The treatment they have received in the MSM is sadly typical. The sex part has been sensationalized beyond comprehehension and the facts have not been let in the way of a good story.
Myth 1. The search was started when a desperate underage girl called the police.
Fact 1. The call that started this entire mess was a hoax by a woman in Colorado.
Myth 2. The FLDS defrauds welfare and lives on the government largesse using their kids to garner benefits.
FACT 2. Not one single person at the compound is on welfare. While specific data on the FLDS are unavailable only 66 people in the entire county are on Childrens Health Insurance and approx 160 on food stamps.
Myth 3. The FLDS has rape beds and rooms set up in their temple.
FACT 3. The temple is a sacred place not used for sex. If anyone would bother to do the research they would find mainstream LDS churches have the same thing because their services are long and the members are often fasting and get faint or need to lay down.
Myth 4. The state is holding X number and percent of pregnant underage girls.
Fact 4. The state will not accept the girls birth certificates or drivers license as proof of their age claiming they could be fake. Of the two that we have hard data on who have given birth in custody, one has been determined to be 18 and the other 22. (Im sure there are underage mothers pregnant here somewhere but the state is trying awfully hard to inflate the numbers)
Partially true statement #5 FLDS is about 55 year old men and 14 year old girls getting married.
Facts 5. This is at least partially true from what I can tell. There is little hard evidence released. The founder Jeffs is in jail for marrying a 19 and 14 year old I believe. Also, the one escapee of the compound who's been in the media lately has was married at either 14 or 15 to a 19 year old. Nineteen and fourteen is a bit different from 55 and 14.
On the last point someone has a case, you're right. There is abuse encouraging youths to marry at the age when they become sexually active. They still believe in marriage. We believe in handing them condoms and telling them if they make a mistake we'll take them down to the clinic and abort it.
From our perspective they are 'sick' and we are normal, I'm sure the feeling is mutual.
46 - Dave Nalle
Doug, at the root of the problem with the FLDS is the fact that polygamy is illegal. If it were not illegal then groups like this would not be forced underground and could avoid the secrecy which makes them so vulnerable to accusations of impropriety. Also, with the scrutiny which would come from being openly polygamous they would be much less inclined to actually engage in genuinely harmful activity like child marriage.
The truth is that polygamy is not a threat to society or in any way dangerous to anyone and there's no reason not to legalize it. Making it illegal is where most of the problems come from.
Dave
47 - Irene Wagner
You’re more at the base of the stem than the root, Dave Nalle, but you’re dang close.
One of the roots of the problem is that the leader of the FLDS hadn’t relocated his sect to South Carolina where the fathers of the babies of 14- and 15- year old moms would’ve been given a pass. The other root of the problem is that the FLDS wasn’t living in Utah a hundred and fifty years ago, before the State decided polygamy for everyone was illegal.
…and the TAP root of the problem is that the federal government (and state courts) are not respecting the varied mores and sensibilities of the people who live in the various states. I’m guessing Dave Nalle, that if the pro- and anti-gay marriage activists had found a way to be respectful and reasonable with one another, getting to know one another’s BEST SELVES, polygamy and homosexual marriages would have been made, not by the courts, but by the people themselves, if not with universal hallelujahs, at least with far more people making no more audible an objection than "a tsk tsk, God show them the way, but until then, it's really none of my business" in the pew of a church somewhere. Or if not in a state like…Texas maybe…then in a majority of the states. No civil war. No violation of constitution.
I say the following not because you, Dave Nalle, would give a rat’s buttocks, but because some of those reading might think, “o! listen to that Irene Wagner the heretic, saying polygamy is OK,” and that would keep them firmly entrenched against the idea of allowing polygamy as a right of people living in states whose majority does NOT find it objectionable. I don’t believe that polygamy is for the Christian, as it violates the sacred mystical parallel relationship between a marriage (God, man and his wife) and God’s relationship with his church (God, Jesus, and the his Bride-the Church). And if there are Christians who DO find polygamy acceptable, they can congregate with others who do, just as those who believe in Transubstantiation, or the uniqueness of the KJV, or whatever the grey area, stay in close proximity to those with whom they are less likely to be distracted by arguments over non-essentials. I’d hope that all Christians, differing as they do, would find a way of living together in peace, all looking at their common bond in Jesus.
And I’d hope that Americans in general (and those in the world!) would respect and even celebrate rather than hold in contempt their incredible diversity, looking at their common bond as human beings.
48 - Charlotte
There are always people who are against equality. Marriage is a basic civil right that should be attainable by all Americans if they choose. For those who are uncomfortable with gay marriage check out our short produced to educate & defuse the controversy. It has a way of opening closed minds & provides some sanity on the issue
49 - Irene Wagner
I've not seen it, Charlotte, but if you wanted to convince people, not by tearing down what THEY believed, but by getting them to respect and see things from your point of view, a sensitively produced film and other kinds of dialogue would be the right way to do it. There are sides of this controversy where gays need to bend, or at least wait, a little bit, and there are sides of this controversy about which the "antis" need to bend--not compromising their own standards, but leaving behind the unreasonable expectations they have for other people.
There are also materials available to educate, not necessarily on theology, but on the anatomy of a human being at various of his or her development. Maybe someone should organize a "Lets All Examine Our Biases Film Fest."
50 - Zedd
Doug Hunter #44,
I think you didn't hear the reason why these babies and children are being removed.
This is a group of people that raise their children to be molested or to be molesters. In a normal home, we would say, take the kid out. Simply because it is a supposed religion, people sympathize??? Those babies were taken because their parents don't have a say in their upbringing and the leaders force little girls to be molested and encourage men to do it. That's pedophilia, not a good thing. A really bad environment to raise children.
51 - Jet in Columbus
While I don't approve of the cult, the babies being raised to be molested has to be one of the most convoluted leaps of twisted logic I ever heard.
Zedd, how do you manage to sound so intelligent and yet be so stupid?
52 - Zedd
Jet,
Don't get too familiar. Also, slow down. You may discover that it is you who is dumb.
If the belief is that its perfectly fine to molest girls, and girls can be and have been molested, then they are being raised to potentially be molested. If the boys are taught that molesting girls is fine, then they are being raised to be potential molesters. Both girls and boys are receiving an improper upbringing.
Where is the mystery or "unreasonability" in that statement? I am sincerely curious. How does your brain miss that?
Lets take it slower. If a Dad sexually abuses a daughter and another daughter is born to him, would not the state remove her from that home? Heck those that have be found to have committed a sex crime cant even LIVE in the vicinity of a school let alone RAISE children.
Is it all clearing up for you? Do you need things to be explained in tiny bites in order to comprehend. If that is that case, my apologies. I was not posted to just you, but had we been in a one on one, i would have given you the information bit by bit.
Side Note: The fact that under aged girls have children by adult men proves the sexual abuse exists.
53 - Jet in Columbus
Look Zedd-you've goaded many here into arguing some of the most ignorant feets of side-tracking a subject that I've ever seen.
I nor anyone else here needs to point out the blatant and gaping holes in your flimsy and fuzzy logic; their right in front of us glaring for all to see.
Frankly, I no longer feel you're worth wasting my time on, and I pray others won't either...
54 - Jet in Columbus
They're all hetrosexual. Hetrosexuals should be all put in jail. I bet mosto fo ther are right-handed too.
Of course molesting a chile is wrong-your insane leab of logic is that you have no proof, nor do you want any that anyone was being taught from a young age to molest someon.
Trying to superglue the two together is down right irresponsible and you should be ashamed of yourself.
All child molesters drive cars
All child molesters watch TV
Do we condemn all people who drive cars or watch TV to be hunted down and punnished.
You're therapy sessions must cost a fortune!!!
55 - Dave Nalle
>>The fact that under aged girls have children by adult men proves the sexual abuse exists. <<
Zedd, if you'd read this thread or followed the case, it's not clear that there are actually any underage girls who are pregnant, and it certainly hasn't been proven in a court of law. And even if there are instances of underage pregnancies, that is not automatically proof of a systemetized abuse of young girls.
The objectionable thing for some here is that children are taken from their mothers (not the suspected abusive fathers) without any kind of legal process. Plus the mothers are not the abusers, so why are they deemed unfit to care for their children?
You're focusing on one very small aspect of the problem which isn't even supported by factual evidence and missing the larger issues.
Dave
56 - Jet in Columbus
... and isn't what this article is about in the first place!
57 - Zedd
Dave,
CPS takes the kids out of possible abuse situations first then they investigate. They cant afford to wait for legal knots to be untied in many cases.
It's been stated repeatedly that there are many mothers among the girls. There are those who've come out of the group before the raid who have testified about the child "marriages"; kids taken to a cheap motel and forced to marry adults. I think it's worth investigating. If its not true then the children should be returned however if its not....
Its been said by former members that these kids aren't even raised by their natural mothers. They are raised communally or by whomever the leader decides should raise them.
Jet,
Are you alright? I was simply restating what the state is saying the reason for the removal of the children is. Are you feeling well??
Don't address a participant if you are not prepared that they may actually reply.
These articles morph all of the time. What is with you?? While I've seen your name on BC I don't remember dialoguing with you much if at all in the past. I won't feel slighted if you discontinue to communicate with me. (????) We most likely don't agree or disagree to any interesting degree, hence the lack of communication. So, I suppose you not communicating wont affect much.
Now if Clav dumped me, I would be wounded for decades.
58 - Doug Hunter
Yes, the founder is in jail for life and was one of the FBI's ten most wanted because he performed a marriage ceremony for a 14 year old girl to a 19 year old boy. If letting teenagers with age difference screw gets you life and FBI's most wanted I know alot of uneducated inner city and trailer park moms who should be looking at some serious jail time.
Here's a clue for you: outside the compound 14 and 15 year olds are having sex, we're even handing them condoms and taking them to the clinic to have abortions. So the main difference between us and them is that they ask they're teenagers to get married before sex, we promote the opposite.
They do have one big stain on their record, young women marrying old men. Lets compare the rest
No drugs, smoking, or drunkeness
No gangs
No 4 hours of TV + 3 hours of video games
No fast food obesity
No environment destruction or massive consermerism
No neglected or single family parenthood
No reliance on government assistance
No dumping kids off w/ a stranger and working 2 jobs
No bombing federal buildings or flying planes into towers because they disagree with us
Their lifestyle certainly isn't for me but let's leave these people alone. There's a saying from the second World War:
First they came for the Communists,
- but I was not a communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists,
- but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews,
- but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.
Where were you when they came for the polygamists?
59 - Zedd
The 14 yr old GIRL was FORCED to have sex with a 19yr old by a grown man.
SICK!!!!
60 - Clavos
It's been stated repeatedly that there are many mothers among the girls
Until proven, allegations only. That's why they're running DNA tests.
There are those who've come out of the group before the raid who have testified about the child "marriages"; kids taken to a cheap motel and forced to marry adults.
Not "testified." Claimed. Again, at this point, only allegations, and in fact, denials of these claims (from the girls themselves) are also beginning to emerge.
I think it's worth investigating
That's exactly what TX authorities are and have been doing since the raid.
What has been revealed by the authorities so far appears to indicate that little, if any, crime has been committed.
61 - Doug Hunter
No one 'forced' the girl to say I do or to have sex. Was she pressured? Probably. Lot's of girls are pressured to have sex at young ages (usually by the boy who fancies them) You're simply spreading propanganda because discussing the actual facts puts you in too bad a position.
I imagine if they declared hip-hop culture to be 'SICK' because it promotes degradation of women, drugs, gangs, rape, etc and swooped into the projects taking all the kids from every parent regardless of guilt you'd have a different outlook. Maybe while they're at it they could put R. Kelly on the most wanted list and put him away for life. He didn't just condone 14yo sex, he participated in it! On second thought maybe that should be death, right?
62 - Doug Hunter
On the facts side, the state is now 0-10 when disputing ages with the FLDS. Of the original 31 mothers, ten have been shown to be as old as 27 and their youngest 'victim', 14, turned out not to even be pregnant. The FLDS has 16 more in dispute which if the trend hold would mean there were actually 4-5 underage pregnancies. Certainly not good, but also not worth destroying an entire community over.
Ten women, many with drivers licenses and birth certificates which they showed CPS, were held against their will as minors because they 'looked young' for over a month. Can a 27 year old really look that young or did CPS need to inflate it's numbers to justify it's boondoggle of a raid?
63 - Zedd
Awe Clav,
You love me! sniff
64 - Dave Nalle
Just to keep this up to date on the FLDS sidetrack, the appeals court here in Austin ruled today that the CPS had no grounds for removing the kids from parental custody. The state may file an appeal, but right now it looks like the families will be reunited and there are no further charges that can be filed.
Dave
65 - Zedd
Thanks for indulging us Dave.
My hope is that this move will frighten them from ever fooling around with these children again.
66 - Zedd
Doug,
That girl was raped. What sort of pervert defends a men in his 50's forcing a CHILD to have sex? YUCK!!!
I feel gross just writing about it.
Don't bother to respond. Ewwww!!
67 - Doug Hunter
Your poor little 'feel goods' are hurt just thinking about it. Emotion trumping logic again in the mind of a liberal, typical. When you grow up emotionally enough to have an adult discussion of a topic get back with me. (hint: adult conversations don't normally use technical terms like EWWWW and YUCK)
Until then, good day !
68 - Dave Nalle
Zedd, there's still a huge difference between a man in his 50s having sex with a 14 year old and two teens having sex because a 50 year old married them.
And keep in mind that our current notion of 'age of consent' is a very modern and culturally isolated idea. When the LDS was founded 14 would have been considered an acceptable age for a legal marriage in most of the US.
Dave
69 - Jet in Columbus
Dave, as much as I respect your intellect and your patience, do you really thing that you can put anything close to a rational thought into Zedd's insanely and extreemly closed mind...?
It'd die of loneliness!
70 - Zedd
Dave,
Just wait until your daughter hits 14. We'll see if you will be open to a 19 year old raping her. Let alone because a 50yr old MADE him do it.
Also, you know full well that a 14yr old today is not the same as a 14yr old of yesteryear. In our culture a 14yr old is a CHILD. We can only evaluate such things based on our culture not what happened 100yrs ago.
However, 100yrs ago RAPE was rape. This child was raped.
A few months back you were defending the plea of a prostitute who said she was raped because her jons didn't pay her. However you are willing to accept that it is permissible for a 14yr old virgin to be raped by a 19yr old? YUCK!!
What am I missing here.
Jet,
Wow talk about patience.... Wow, this is a test of all tests.
May I share..... You are dumb. You just don't know it. STOP. Off course you wont stop because you are too dumb to know just how dumb you are (sorry) so you'll go on making me cringe at, well, your dumbness (cringe/flush chill). Let's hope you are young and you'll sharpen up with time. Hugs to you. Oh my goodness, I just got another cringe thinking of you in the future realizing just how stupid you were right now. When it happens, don't worry about it, we were all big mouthed and stupid (to some degree) in our youth.
71 - Zedd
Doug,
Pervy!!!
72 - Jet in Columbus
I rest my case....
73 - Zedd
You have no case. [edited for pointless insults]
74 - wildnfree
How did this thread get so hijacked for such B.S.?
Back to the subject at hand I too believe that the government has no part to play in the arrangements of marriage. The real reason that they will always keep a hand in this is that the sale of marriage licenses is a cash cow for most local governments.
Also by making marriage a legal rather than a personal/religious arrangement the government supports a multi-billion dollar a year divorce industry. After all we have a government of the lawyers, by the lawyers, and for the lawyers.
Laws against gay marriage, polygamy, polyandry, or any other agreement between consenting ADULTS is formed from religious opinion and is therefore a violation of the establishment clause of the Constitution of the U.S.A. Read it yourself here.
These laws are based upon the rules of one religion (and not everyone in that religion agrees that it's forbidden), this is an act of blatant discrimination against religions that allow these practices. This is the de-facto establishment of an official religion.
Now I just have to get the image of big blonde hairy boobs out of my head!
75 - Dave Nalle
Just wait until your daughter hits 14. We'll see if you will be open to a 19 year old raping her. Let alone because a 50yr old MADE him do it.
My daughter hit 14 two years ago. She was raised to be responsible and fairly level headed so I don't expect her to join a polygamous cult.
Also, you know full well that a 14yr old today is not the same as a 14yr old of yesteryear. In our culture a 14yr old is a CHILD. We can only evaluate such things based on our culture not what happened 100yrs ago.
You aren't terribley familiar with modern 14 year olds, are you? An awful lot of them are sexually active by that age, whether you consider them children or not. Most people would argue that they are being sexualized younger than they were a generation or two ago.
However, 100yrs ago RAPE was rape. This child was raped.
I'd need your definition of rape, then. Consensual sex within a marriage which would be legal in several states is awfully hard to take seriously as rape. In Tennessee 14 is the legal age of consent. In quite a few other states a 14 year old can marry with parental permission, which these kids certainly would have had. I have heard no evidence whatsoever from you or anyone else that there was forcible rape here.
A few months back you were defending the plea of a prostitute who said she was raped because her jons didn't pay her. However you are willing to accept that it is permissible for a 14yr old virgin to be raped by a 19yr old? YUCK!!
The first is a matter of the sanctity of oral contracts. The second is a matter of cultural mores, which are highly variable, and I think it would be easy to argue that the FLDS is a society unto itself and should be allowed some latitude in these conventions.
And thr truth which I'm sure you'll recoil from is that at 14 most human females are physically mature and capable of breeding healthily.
Dave