Frist offers details today that suggest he was irresponsible when considering the Terri Schiavo case last year.
When Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) tried to diagnose Terri Schiavo from an hour's worth of videotape — saying that "footage, to me, depicted something very different than persistent vegetative state" — the conventional wisdom was that he was looking at the famous images of Schiavo smiling and seemingly responding to family members.…
Article comments
26 - Kelly
READ the autopsy report Scott, not some Florida rag pushing the Michael Schiavo LIE. The autopsy report states that they could NOT PROVE PVS.
Want me to get it for you?
Michael Schiavo said Terri could feel pain! It is his sworn testimony.
Terri had no fluid in her body for 13 days, what do you expect her brain to look like after that. She was at the most, MCS not PVS, and she had a right to her life, and it was taken away from her by a bunch of criminal crooks who violated her civil rights. Every American in this country has civil rights except in Florida State.
I guess Nancy agrees with Dr Cranford. Hope she never comes down with Alz-disease.
27 - Kelly
Show me where it says Terri was PVS.
See yah Grim Reapers, Hope you never end up on the other side of Judge Greer's bench. He likes killing women. Record shows that.
28 - Kelly
"I know you feel very strongly about this. And I know it's a very tough issue. But until Florida changes its law -- again, similar to the law signed in 1999 by GW Bush when he was governor of Texas -- then your claims that Michael Schiavo should be prosecuted are unjustified opinion."
Yes Mark, I do, very. The FBI could prove conspiracy and collusion if they were allowed to do their job, and I know that for a fact. Terri was not just an old shoe and was not the property of Schiavo who had another woman. He gave up that right. She was an American with rights! Her rights were taken away from her.
This country is going to hell in a hand basket when we have people supporting the likes of Michael Schiavo, Judge Greer and george Felos.
Promise, I am gone.
29 - david r. mark
Don't confuse Kelly with the facts, I guess.
It's much easier to lash out than have a reasonable conversation, right? Very mature. And blaming the media for reporting facts is certainly the way to go.
30 - david r. mark
"The FBI could prove conspiracy and collusion if they were allowed to do their job, and I know that for a fact." That's an opinion.
"Terri was not just an old shoe and was not the property of Schiavo who had another woman." Terri's father gave Michael permission to be with another woman, according to court records. I'm not justifying Michael's actions, but keep it in context.
"She was an American with rights! Her rights were taken away from her." Not under Florida state law. 10 courts and 19 judges agreed.
"This country is going to hell in a hand basket when we have people supporting the likes of Michael Schiavo, Judge Greer and george Felos" That's an opinion.
31 - Kelly
"Don't confuse Kelly with the facts, I guess."
Last time, the autospy report does not prove PVS, she could have been "MCS", like her parents said she was, and the other doctors said she was.
I have the court records in a box right next to me, and Schiavo said she could feel pain. I guess he was wrong???
I haven't seen a fact of yours yet, Mark.
32 - david r. mark
Kelly, I've presented about 20 facts overall. You keep offering opinions and claiming them as facts.
Furthermore, the point of the story was that Frist was apparently referencing Hammesfahr, whose testimony was found not credible by the courts. It shows a lack of judgment on his part.
The debate about Terri Schiavo is really off the topic. I have tried very hard to be understanding, but it's tough when all you do is lash out and basically say "my opinions are the facts, and you guys are all a bunch of liberal grim reapers."
It makes you about as in-credible as Hammesfahr.
33 - Kelly
Okay, back on topic. I called Frist's office to opine on his Meet The Press comments.
Hammesfahr's treatment actually helped a brain damaged man in Jacksonville improve greatly. He is not the only one that said Terri was MCS. Why don't you recognize that?
Hey Mark, why don't you do an article on Judge Greer and see how many cases he has had reversed for his errors. I think you would be very shocked the man is still sitting on the bench. His descretion is criminal. imho Oh yea, and he is legally blind and requires a driver.
Toodles
34 - Bliffle
Kelly,
I think you're clutching at straws here. Why is this so important to you?
35 - david r. mark
First off, it's David, not Mark.
But Kelly, please note that Hammesfahr had days in multiple courts to present his evidence. The court found his testimony in-credible. He showed the video -- seemingly the video Frist saw -- and it showed Hammesfahr giving 166 commands, and Terri responding to 1. And the court could not conclude that this response was more than random action.
Furthermore, you focus on Greer. But you don't seem to want to acknowledge that 10 courts and 19 judges agreed with Michael Schiavo, and agreed to uphold Florida state law.
What you are doing is similar to what the conservative media did at the time. Focus on the evil Michael Schiavo. Focus on the liberal activist (even though he's a Republican) Judge Greer. Ignore that Hammesfahr's testimony was found multiple times to lack credibility. Ignore that the two nurses' claims were found by multiple courts to lack credibility. Ignore that Hammesfahr wasn't actually nominated for a Nobel Prize. Ignore the opinions of the multitude of doctors who cared for Terri.
It's a lot of emotion and a lot of opinion, but it's not a lot of facts.
And I say that not to give you my opinion, but to repeat to you the decision of 10 courts and 19 judges -- across the political spectrum.
36 - Bill
There is no evidence beyond Hammesfahr's own dubious word that his vasodilation therapy has ever worked.
He was the only neurologist who examined her, in the entire history of the case, who claimed she was not in a PVS.
The other 7 neurologists who examined her were clear she was in a PVS with no hope of recovery.
You can toss out Dr. Cranford and you still have 6 confirming PVS vs. Hammesfahr.
Even the 2nd District Court of Appeal, the 3 judge panel that had ordered the second trial, was clear they would make the same decision on the facts presented at trial:
"this court has closely examined all of the evidence reviewed in this record.
We have repeatedly examined the videotapes, not merely watching short segments
but carefully observing the tapes in their entirety.
We have examined the brain
scans with the eyes of educated laypersons and considered the explanations provided
by the doctors in the transcripts.
We have concluded that, if we were called upon to review the guardianship court's
decision de novo, we would affirm it." (pp. 9-10)
http://www.2dca.org/opinion/June%2006,%202003/2D02-5394.pdf
Based on the above, I see absolutely no support for your position that were the
case tried again, under any jurist, that the findings of fact would differ.
Her wishes, of course, were irrelevant to the Schindlers:
from the Report of Jay Wolfson, guardian ad litem, December 2003
page 14:
"Throughout the course of the litigation, deposition and trial testimony
by members of the Schindler family voiced the disturbing belief that
they would keep Theresa alive at any and all costs.
Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family
members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent
gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb, and
would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, would perform open
heart surgery...
Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her
intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it."
37 - Scott
"READ the autopsy report Scott, not some Florida rag pushing the Michael Schiavo LIE. The autopsy report states that they could NOT PROVE PVS"
I wasn't aware that the AP wire service was a Florida rag, or even one pushing a lie. They tend to deal in facts because otherwise, they would be out of business.
38 - Scott
"Show me where it says Terri was PVS."
You yourself said earlier that PVS can't be proven in an autopsy. What it did prove is that her brain was basically gone, confirming the diagnosis that she had been in PVS.
39 - Kelly
"Ignore that the two nurses' claims were found by multiple courts to lack credibility."
That's not true, Greer struck their testimony from the record, the other courts never laid eyes on it. That is what people don't realize. That is why Congress wanted a de Novo, to start from the beginning and look at what JUDGE GREER IGNORED.
Felos led the Schindlers into that sick arms and legs amputation, it was a shyster trick that indeed made them look bad.
David, Schiavo cut off care for Terri in 1991, he didn't want her to recover an inch. He even refused towels in her hand to prevent curling.
He has yet to explain why she collasped that night and why he left her faced down.
He is lucky I wasn't Terri's sister or Mother.
David, lastly, Frist did nothing wrong, he simply didn't agree with the PVS state, he was not sure. And, you have yet to admit that Judge Greer and atleast one of the other doctors made their findings with the same video tape. No comment from David. I would think if it was good enough for Greer to pen an execution of an innocent woman that married the wrong man, it should be good enough for Frist to form an opinion.
Don't hear you finding fault in Greer for using the TAPE.
40 - Kelly
"You yourself said earlier that PVS can't be proven in an autopsy. What it did prove is that her brain was basically gone, confirming the diagnosis that she had been in PVS."
No, that is not what it confirms. The brain is a mystery to medical science, even today. Didn't the doctors say that little girl in Mass was PVS and they pulled her plug last week and she didn't die. Fooled them...huh.
Again, after 13 days with no water, the brain is 80 percent water. No wonder it shrunk as it did. Terri was MCS and that does not fit the Florida Statute for death.
Do some reseach on the Nazi that created the PVS medical term. Cranford's hero. Can't remember his name now. We don't do these acts in America. Nazi's do that. By the way, as a former Republican, I can tell you this, it is the Republicans that made these sick laws.
Bye
41 - Rach
Yeah, It's me. I know Dr. Hammesfahr is getting
some bad publicity, but frankly, he isn't harming anyone, is he? He DID spend time, plenty of it, with Terri unlike Dr. Cranford. Cranford is much more suspect to me than Hammesfahr-and not just in this case. His ability to misdiagnose/mispeak/speak too soon is not unknown. I'm glad he's leaving medicine.
As for Frist-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeuw! It will take a lot before I would consider him as a candidate and I LIKE smart southerners! By the way, isn't anyone moderating blogcritics? Noone needs to use f-words; it lowers the IQ here no matter what one's opinion. Just go over to Newshounds already!
Kelly: Tu es canadienne ou quoi? At least you have heart!
42 - Kelly
Rach,
I called Frist's office today and told the staff he could forget running for President, he was being delusional. He has the back bone of a wet noodle.
I am very disappointed in his comments.
Rach, I have an American heart, I don't know these other people.
43 - Scott
I have a baboon heart. The sun feels good on my baboon heart.
44 - Rach
Yeah, It's me. I know Dr. Hammesfahr is getting
some bad publicity, but frankly, he isn't harming anyone, is he? He DID spend time, plenty of it, with Terri unlike Dr. Cranford. Cranford is much more suspect to me than Hammesfahr-and not just in this case. His ability to misdiagnose/mispeak/speak too soon is not unknown. I'm glad he's leaving medicine.
As for Frist-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeuw! It will take a lot before I would consider him as a candidate and I LIKE smart southerners! By the way, isn't anyone moderating blogcritics? Noone needs to use f-words; it lowers the IQ here no matter what one's opinion. Just go over to Newshounds already!
Kelly: Tu es canadienne ou quoi? At least you have heart!
45 - Bill
The significantly reduced brain weight observed at autopsy was not a result of dehydration.
Rather, it was the result of the death of most, if not all, of the upper brain as a result of oxygen deprivation that occurred in her 1990 collapse, where she suffered cardiac arrest.
The upper brain cannot survive for long without oxygen - major damage occurs in 8-10 minutes (some sources as 5 minutes).
Once the upper brain died the tissue atrophied and was replaced by CSF, per the autopsy report:
"ex vacuo hydrocephalous is merely the replacement of lost cerebral tissue with cerebrospinal fluid." (p. 8)
This is very clear in the 2002 CT scan widely circulated (the image of her brain is on the right):
http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/2%20CTs.png
Dehydration is not, and never could be, responsible for such a dramatic reduction in brain weight.
I see no attending neurologist besides Hammesfahr claiming she was MCS.
It is not surprising that both trial and appellate courts rejected his opinion in favor of the 7 (or 6, if you exclude Cranford) other neurologists who examined her and found her to be in a PVS with no hope of recovery.
That is not surprising, given Hammesfahr's significant professional and personal ethical compromises, including his false claim that he is a Nobel Prize nominee in the field of Medicine, a claim which he apparently continues to the present day.
46 - Rach
Cher Bill,
You are probably addressing your comments to Kelly, but dehydration really caused her (ugly, egregious) death. There is no beauty in being a liberal on this issue. The initial incident will always be suspect to me.
Care to opine on her albumin level, Bill?
47 - Kelly
Bill,
Terri was MCS just like her parents, siblings, caregivers stated. There was one Nurse that quit Hospice out of disgust and spoke out as Terri was dying. The MSM didn't give her much credit, she was too truthful.
Really, the point is that you can't diagnose PVS or even necessarily tell how much functionality someone has from a CAT scan or from their brain structure at all.
Isn't it the truth that science doesn't really know for sure exactly how the brain functions or what it does, and there are situations where people who have very severe brain damage are much more functional than we would expect from looking at their brains. Do you have an honest bone in your body?
http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/ sc...y_necessary.htm
http://www.alternativescience.co.../ no_brainer.htm
Dr. J. Lorber, for example, is famous for being the first person to provide a systematic study of patients with hydrocephalus, a buildup of spinal fluid in the brain just like Terri had.
Here's a quote from the first article I linked above:
"Two young children with hydrocephalus referred to Lorber presented with normal mental development for their age. In both children, there was no evidence of a cerebral cortex. One of the children died at age 3 months, the second at 12 months. He was still following a normal development profile with the exception of the apparent lack of cerebral tissue shown by repeated medical testing. An account of the children was published in Developmental Medicine and Child Neurology.
Later, a colleague at Sheffield University became aware of a young man with a larger than normal head. He was referred to Lorber even though it had not caused him any difficulty. Although the boy had an IQ of 126 and had a first class honours degree in mathematics, he had "virtually no brain". A noninvasive measurement of radio density known as CAT scan showed the boy's skull was lined with a thin layer of brain cells to a millimeter in thickness. The rest of his skull was filled with cerebrospinal fluid. The young man continues a normal life with the exception of his knowledge that he has no brain.
Although anecdotal accounts may be found in medical literature, Lorber is the first to provide a systematic study of such cases. He has documented over 600 scans of people with hydrocephalus and has broken them into four groups:
those with nearly normal brains
those with 50-70% of the cranium filled with cerebrospinal fluid
those with 70-90% of the cranium filled with cerebrospinal fluid
and the most severe group with 95% of the cranial cavity filled with cerebrospinal fluid.
Of the last group, which comprised less than 10% of the study, half were profoundly retarded. The remaining half had IQs greater than 100. Skeptics have claimed that it was an error of interpretation of the scans themselves. Lorber himself admits that reading a CAT scan can be tricky. He also has said that he would not make such a claim without evidence. In answer to attacks that he has not precisely quantified the amount of brain tissue missing, he added, 'I can't say whether the mathematics student has a brain weighing 50 grams or 150 grams, but it is clear that it is nowhere near the normal 1.5 kilograms.'"
Terri should have been allowed to live. There was no proof from "her" that she wanted to die. Her husband is a pathological liar and it can be proved in the court records.
48 - Kelly
For Bill,
When hypernatremic dehydration occurs, the brain shrinks. During those 13 days her brain cells died. I can't believe you are trying to refute that.
Neurologic complications can occur in hyponatremic and hypernatremic states. Rapid correction of chronic hyponatremia (>2 mEq/L/h) has been associated with central pontine myelinolysis. During hypernatremic dehydration, water is osmotically pulled from cells into the extracellular space. To compensate, cells can generate osmotically active particles (idiogenic osmoles) that pull water back into the cell and maintain cellular fluid volume. During rapid rehydration of hypernatremia, the increased osmotic activity of these cells can result in a large influx of water, causing cellular swelling and rupture, with cerebral edema being the most devastating consequence. Slow rehydration over 48 hours generally minimizes this risk.
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/byname/dehydration.htm
49 - Rach
Kelly,
you on-line?
50 - david r. mark
Kelly, again, the issue is Frist, not Michael Schiavo.
You continue to mix Sean Hannity spin points with your own opinion and call it factual evidence.
10 courts, 19 judges, all of her doctors, and an autopsy report. I'll stick with all of them.
51 - Bill
Dehydration caused her death, via complications from electrolytic imbalance (per the autopsy).
Dehydration did not, however, cause a loss of over 50% of brain weight in a mere 2 weeks.
Her upper brain (or at least most of it) died as a result of the cardiac arrest in 1990.
The dead brain tissue atrophied, with the space replaced with CSF over the years following her initial collapse.
The neuropathologists' report within the autopsy report notes the significant loss of tissue, shown as I indicated before, roughly 3 years pre-mortem on her CT scan.
In addition to Dr. Nelson, the pathologist, Dr. Thogmartin, notes "massive cerebral atrophy... Her remaining brain regions also show severe hypoxic injury and neuronal atrophy/loss." (p. 8)
Even Jay Wolfson, the final guardian ad litem, noted in his December 2003 report (p.31):
"Theresa's neurological tests and CT scans indicate objective measures of
the persistent vegetative state. Theresa's cerebral cortex is principally
liquid, haven shrunken due to the severe anoxic trauma experienced thirteen
years ago. The initial oxygen deprivation caused damage that could not be
repaired, and the brain tissue in that area continued to devolve."
All 3 of the above directly contradict your assertion that dehydration alone is responsible for the loss in brain weight observed at autopsy.
If you have a differing opinion, you'll need to find a neurologist or preferably a neuropathologist who supports your contention that dehydration alone caused the loss of brain weight.
I don't see how Lorber is germain to her case.
Had she not been in a PVS, had she been like those Lorber studied, it would have been evident in the clinical examination, yet all but one neurologist (of those who examined her) repeatedly confirmed PVS.
As for PVS vs. MCS, note that only those neurologists who bothered to personally examine the patient can present a qualified medical opinion on whether she was in PVS, or MCS.
Her family, her nurses, etc. do not have the medical training to present a qualified opinion.
E.g., her parents thought she could see them; the autopsy confirmed she was blind.
I notice you keep ignoring the fact that she was repeatedly, over a number of years, personally examined and diagnosed by 6 neurologists (excluding, for the moment, Cranford) who confirmed she was PVS, with no hope of recovery.
Could you share with us all why you choose to believe Hammesfahr?
He relies only on his observations and personal credibility as support for his clinical claims.
However, his extensive disciplinary history and repeated, willful falsification of his medical background, even to this present day, significantly damages that credibility.
52 - Rach
David, Bill: Okay to have opinions, but going with the majority isn't always the way. There was nothing wrong with Cheshire's examination of Terri's case. For those who don't know, Cheshire did not paste a diagnosis of PVS on Terri and he is NOT discredited in any way. At least Bill allows that there is something maybe not quite allowable about the extreme Cranford. Yet, he's the doc who was frequently trotted out on TV. .
Since nurses spend more time with patients I think it is fair to listen to their comments, certainly most wise docs listen to, if not rely on some nurses to provide clues to the pt's condition.
53 - Kelly
"Dehydration did not, however, cause a loss of over 50% of brain weight in a mere 2 weeks."
You have misunderstood me. I know it didn't contribute to all the shrinking of the brain but the autospy is not a clear picture of her brain prior to her dehydration and you cannot judge her cognitive ability from the autospy. Neurons died during the 13 days, so how can you prove what was firing and what was not. You can't. Terri's brain was damaged, nobody ever said it wasn't. What the Schindlers said was she was not a "plant" as Felos and Schiavo want everybody to believe.
Back to the topic, Frist didn't think she was a "plant" either.
You keep saying all the doctors were in agreement with Cranford, when they were not. Some said, "Persistent" and some said "Permanent" veg state. The Schindler's said MCS.
When Terri was in the nursing home prior to the hospice the medical notes indicated Terri was awake.
Okay, nuff said. I 'm done Mark, sorry to keep going on. Thanks for your patience with me.
54 - Shark
Kelly: "...Okay, nuff said..."
THANK GAWD!
55 - Bill
Dr. Cheshire is unable to render a qualified medical opinion.
By his own admission, in his affidavit, he chose not to perform a personal examintion of Ms. Schiavo.
All the neurologists who bothered to examine her, with the exception of Hammesfahr, confirmed PVS, a state of irreversible brain damage, with no hope of recovery.
Only a neurologist can distinguish between PVS and MCS.
I don't know how to make that any clearer.
Dr. Frist, who is not a neurologist, would not be able to present a qualified opinion, even had he examined her personally.
Regardless of their personal beliefs, her parents, her nurses, etc., cannot present a qualified medical opinion.
56 - Amazed
Actually Kelly the extent of the atrophy of her brain was apparent in the CT scans taken many years prior to her death.
Upon autopsy there was nothing to indicate that any dramatic or even noteworthy changes had occurred from what was observed in the CT scans from many years prior.
Despite what the Schindler marching army of supporters claim- no evidence exists to support the bizzare claims about how dyhydration accounts for the observations made at autopsy about the nature and extent of the damage.
The nature and extent of the damage was readily apparent in the CT images from many years prior to her death.
In terms of what the Schindlers said when they had the media spotlight and the backing of pro life groups: they were proven to be outright liars and operating from an agenda of deception and misinformation. Remember the claims about the bone scan? Every statement they made in regards to the bone scan was an outright falsehood because they were in command of the facts.
First of all a bone scan is not an X-ray. These are two entirely different diagnostic imaging processes. The bone scan is a diagnostic tool used to identify abnormal turn over, turn over being the natural process of bone replacement activity.
The Bone Scan was ordered by a rehab physcian because it was noted during a rehab session that there was greater than normal resistance in knee range of motion excercise and that there were indications of inflammation with the knee joint- such as elevated local temp at the joint.
The rehab doc was looking to confirm a presumptive diagnosis that she was having the kind of TYPICAL problems that long term bed ridden patients suffering from contractures and other nuerological related issues suffer.
It was not ordered to explore the possibility that she had been abused.
The radiologist marked his observations and a possible interpretation without knowing the reason why it was ordered or the medical history of the patient. The doctor that ordered the scan didn't need a radiologists possible interpretation in order to use the results of the scan for its intended purpose.
The Schindlers knew why it was ordered. They knew the circumstances under which it was ordered. They knew the INTENDED purpose of it. They had access to the deposition made by the radiologist.
They Schindlers knew of its existance- in fact their attorney stated in open court and on the record that they had the scan in their possession for years. It was not hidden. It was not buried. They had deposed the radiologist.
The only thing "recently uncovered" about it was that the Schindlers outright lied about it and used the deception to further their campaign of deception and misinformation. They used it to fuel the fires of the conspiracy theorists and nut jobs that flocked to them like moths to a flame.
57 - Rach
AMAZED is back!
58 - Rach
Hey, Amazed! ever find out the answer to my question?
59 - Kelly
"Actually Kelly the extent of the atrophy of her brain was apparent in the CT scans taken many years prior to her death."
Have you ever seen a CT scan of an elderly patient? Looks alot like Terri's.
"The nature and extent of the damage was readily apparent in the CT images from many years prior to her death."
Nursing home medical notes indicated she was awake.
"The Bone Scan was ordered by a rehab physcian because it was noted during a rehab session that there was greater than normal resistance in knee range of motion excercise and that there were indications of inflammation with the knee joint- such as elevated local temp at the joint."
Nice way to describe that Terri felt pain and reacted to the pain. Did I say..Michael is on court record, "terri feels pain". ??? He swore she felt pain. Did he lie?
Like my link said, People without a "brain" can actually live and communicate. The brain is complexed and not text book.
I can't imagine why the Mother of a child would be devious in wanting to keep her daughter alive and spare her death of dehydration.
Schiavo knew Terri for 6-7 years before he smothered her that night. Terri's parents knew her for 41 years. I vote for the parents rights to take their child home to avoid execution by OJ Schiavo.
A friend told me they heard on a police scanner a domestic violence call to Schiavo's house this past weekend. WOW..that was quick.
For David...Frist, Frist, Frist, Frist....
60 - Scott
Ok, note to everyone...Kelly's a loon.
61 - Bill
Indeed, the birth family did everything they possibly could to delay the removal of the feeding tube.
As another poster notes, this position is understandable, however, it had severe consequences.
When one admits under oath that one would simply ignore the prospective ward's wishes, even were those wishes known beyond a doubt, one can expect never to be granted guardianship, in any probate court, in any state here in the U.S.
Had the husband been removed as guardian for any reason, there was never a realistic chance any member of the Schindler family would have been appointed guardian, as a result of their own prior admissions to the court.
62 - Carrie
Scott, I thought I read that "personal attacks are NOT allowed?"