Ground Zero mosque opponents are described as obstinate and bigoted. The mosque-builders and their supporters are even more so.
Sometimes, just sometimes, Democrats impress me. John Kerry holding the Scottish government's feet to the fire over the release of Abdul al-Megrahi, for instance. Kerry doesn't buy the argument that it was right to show mercy to the PanAm flight 103 bomber given his (supposedly) terminal illness, as you would normally expect a bleeding heart liberal to do. I also respect Dianne Feinstein for approving of the Patriot Act, supporting the death penalty, and running San Francisco as a centrist during her tenure as mayor of that normally loopy, hard left city. I like Joe Lieberman, of course, for several reasons.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - zingzing
one and a half questions for mauley: why won't you answer the question? (that being, will there be a "call to islam" in or around the 9/11 memorial?)
27 - Dillon Mawler
Great list! It's right there in the Constitution that all churches must pass a loyalty test!
Lemme do the one for Catholic churches!
28 - doug m
As long as the Imam isn't as narrow-minded as the author and macualey, NYers should be okay. Why don't you mugs call for the removal of all mosques in Manhattan? At least then you would show some consistency.
Ruvy's calls for arson are rather disgusting. What an embarrassment to humanity.
29 - Ruvy
Ruvy -- "American terrorist"? Don't you mean "freedom fighter"? ;-)
I don't go in for euphemisms, Mark. The Etze"l were Jewish terrorists who drove the Brits outta here. They were far less bloodthirsty than their bloodthirsty Arab counterparts. But they were terrorists - just as those who assassinated Lord Moynes and that dumb Swede, Bernadotte....
30 - Ruvy
Doug, I'm not calling for arson. I'm simply predicting that there are some with the sense to do what needs to be done - even when most of the sheeple in your country have neither the brains nor the guts to.
31 - doug m
What needs to be done is for people to reject your warped mindset. Bombing a mosque just because it is built is not patriotic.
32 - Dillon Mawler
Ruvy's number 30 is a direct, moronic call for the community center to be burnt down, barely disguised as a disavowal. Complete cowardice, and pure stupidity to think anyone couldn't understand that.
Fuck you, Ruvy, for endangering my life and the life of my family, as we live three blocks away from the site, and the fire you encourage could kill us.
33 - Ruvy
That is your problem, Doug, not mine. Bombing a synagogue is not patriotic either, and it happens all the time - all over the world. But that is MY problem - not yours. What needs to be done is that vengeance needs to be taken on the human garbage who bomb our synagogues, who call for my extermination - and who call you responsible for 9/11. JEWS need to take that vengeance to show this human garbage that Jewish blood has a value higher than your pathetic documents of law.
34 - Ruvy
Perhaps, Dillon, you should recognize the real threat to your life - the desire of Wahhabi and Wahhabi influenced Muslims to destroy your nation and spit at you in the process - instead of cursing me out.
35 - Dillon Mawler
These are Sufis running the community center, but of course you know that.
And I am not afraid of idiot violent assholes, and nor am I afraid of your type and your lunatic beliefs -- you're miles away, which is the only reason you have the balls to call for violence here.
Your sniveling fear makes you look like a fool and a whimpering coward, calling for someone else to burn down of a house of worship thousands of miles away from you. So brave!
I'm not pissing in my pants, cuz I'm NOT scared.
36 - doug m
Actually all bombings are my problem because I am a member of the human race not some bitter, ignorant fool blinded by fairy tales and phony tribalism. I agree there are certainly dangerous, evil people in the world. Is it just a coincidence their words resemble yours? No one has called me responsible for 9/11 so spare your lies.
37 - Ruvy
Dillon, maybe you ought to look at comment #25 very carefully. This Rauf fellow does not sound like any kind of Sufi I know, and my teacher in Islam is a Sufi.
This guy sounds a whole lot more like a Wahhabi wearing Sufi clothing.
And Dillon, do me a favor. Do not talk to me of "sniveling fear". I am a police volunteer, I carry a weapon when the situation requires it, and like most residents of Ma'ale Levona, I go on patrol once a month. It ain't much, but since I am far too old to be a soldier chasing terrorists and killing them here, I do what I can to protect my country against Arab terrorism - and those who incite Arabs to terror from America and Europe (like some of the commenters here sound like they would like to).
If burning down a mosque or a church was what it took to protect the security of this land I live in, I would not hesitate to do so for a second.
Finally, when I did live in New York, I spent time with the Jewish Defense League. Let me remind you that when the cops were beating the shit out of "peacenik" demonstrators high on pot and mustard gas, we were sending cops to the hospital. I don't give a damn what YOUR pathetic government says about the Jewish Defense League. I'm damned proud of what they did in an atmosphere of intimidated and gutless Jews.
38 - Ruvy
Fuck you, Ruvy, for endangering my life and the life of my family, as we live three blocks away from the site, and the fire you encourage could kill us.
Finally, I have endangered nothing, Dillon. Your unwillingness and inability to recognize your enemies on your doorstep does threaten your family. And that, in the end, is your problem. Deal with it - or suffer the consequences. IT IS NOT MY PROBLEM. The dhimmitude of you Americans is YOUR problem.
39 - Dillon Mawler
Yes, I'm well aware that you spend your days carrying your little gun around and occasionally pointing it at the shadows you believe are out to get you, and you spend your night typing your little Talmudic death threats against those inhuman dogs, the Arabs, who want your land.
Like I said, it's completely cowardly to call for someone to burn down a religious building thousands of miles away. And it pisses me off, because I would be endangered by those flames you want someone else to start. So, no favors, I guess. I'll stick with sniveling fear.
40 - Bill B
Haven't read anything written by Ruvy in a long time.
41 - Ruvy
Actually all bombings are my problem because I am a member of the human race....
Well, Doug, since you want to be a buttinski, remember that road is a two way highway....
What a nice and kind invite to continue commenting on American affairs that don't really worry me. Thank you, Doug!
By the way, since "all bombings are your problem", how much time have you got? I could dig up a whole passel of them to offload onto your shoulders. It's just a few clicks to Yahoo!, you know....
42 - doug m
What a sad, deluded, pathetic fellow. Burning down a church or mosque or temple doesn't create security. It perpetuates the violence you call for.
43 - Baronius
Ruvy, you still haven't explained how to tell the difference between Wahhabi, Wahhabi-influenced, and non-Wahhabi Muslims. Or are you going to kill all of them?
44 - doug m
What on earth? As if you needed an invite to run your mouth and spew your hate-filled rants on this site
45 - Ruvy
Obviously, according to one "victory mosque" supporter, Jews haven't learned the lessons of the holocaust.
And then there is the partnership of this "Sufi" with a mosque with terrorist ties.
People who curse me out and say I'm filled with "sniveling fear" won't be interested in the real threats on their lives. But, hey, that's not my problem! They'll learn, in time. I have no worries. Not for them, anyway....
46 - Dillon Mawler
Ruvy:
Any moron can see that the "enemy at my doorstep" is the one calling for the burning of a building down the street from me. That is you, so cut it the fuck out.
47 - Dillon Mawler
Sorry, Ruvy, still not scared of the supermuslims who are bulletproof and can fly and want me dead. You sound hysterical and stupid. Also, WorldNetDaily? lol.
48 - Ruvy
Dillon, there is no building next to you to burn down. There may be in the future - but that is partly up to you, isn't it? And that building will be a threat to your life - and to your way of life. But, since you evidently refuse to see that, it will be up to someone else to - and to do something about it.
Guess you must have moved into the area after the terrorists destroyed the WTC, eh? Otherwise, you would have realized that destroying the WTC was a threat to you, too....
Or would that be asking too much?
49 - Ruvy
And I could care less whether you are scared or not. IT'S YOUR PROBLEM. Get used to that fact. And learn to deal with your problems. I have enough of my own, thank you...
50 - Dillon Mawler
I know who the threat is, and I'm not scared.
The "problem" I'm dealing with right now is that some cowardly moron who lives thousands of miles away is calling for a building that we're trying to build in my neighborhood to be burned down. So I'm expressing my opinion that such a call is cowardly, and rightly exposing the asshole calling for it as a violent idiot. Seems like most people agree.
51 - Ruvy
Dillon, this is my last comment on this thread. You are the one who called me a coward. You are the one who called me names. You are the one who said "fuck you". You are the one who laughs real danger to your life in the face.
Fine.
So, let's be crystal clear here. If this mosque is built (which I doubt will happen), and if someone decides to blow it up, and you are endangered by that action, I don't give a damn. You are off my radar.
There is such a thing as terminal stupidity. And you show every evidence of it.
52 - Jordan Richardson
Good to see you, Ruvy. You raging psychopath, you.
53 - handyguy
Hi Ruvy. Talked to those crazy ladies Pam Geller or Orly Taitz lately? The three of you could get matching tinfoil hats. They seem to be the source of much of your material of late.
54 - Dillon Mawler
Like most things that you type, that last comment is bullshit. You will definitely comment again on this thread. You can't help it.
I did call you a coward. You are.
I did say fuck you for calling for violence in my neighborhood. Fuck you for doing that.
I do laugh at what you think is dangerous, like I would laugh at the hysterical shrieks of any coward who lives in fear of boogeymen.
This is my last comment on this thread.
55 - Dillon Mawler
Hey, Ruvy, I think I hear an Arab! Quick! No, that way!
Wait, he's behind you! I think he was speaking Wahabbi, too!
56 - Glenn Contrarian
Dillon and Ruvy (but mostly Dillon) -
CHILL!
Your swapping insults are something one would expect in a schoolyard, and not in a discussion among adults.
And Dillon - I am on your side and strongly support the Muslims' right to build that mosque (Ruvy and I have butted heads before), but you certainly took the insults further and thus deserve the greater rebuke. Also, understand your opponent - Ruvy is Jewish and IMO paranoia on his part is quite understandable (two millenia of persecution and massacres including the Ghettos, the Inquisition, the First Crusade, the Holocaust and much more) even if it wrongly colors his view of the world.
Both of you - please keep your comments worthy of a discussion among well-meaning adults.
57 - Dillon Mawler
No, thanks. I'll continue to expose to ridicule and scorn the idea that a religious building should be burned down, as Ruvy endorses. That's just fucking evil, and there's nothing wrong with saying so.
And since I live a couple of blocks away, I think I'll just continue in whatever tone I wish.
Mom.
58 - Glenn Contrarian
Dillon -
When you keep insults and profanity out of your writings, people take you more seriously. It's just like showing up at a business meeting - will they take you more seriously if you wear pajamas or leathers? Or if you wear a business suit?
If you use insults and profanity, though, you throw away any chance of having a fruitful conversation. Your opponent will simply ignore your arguments and you will stand NO chance of getting your point through.
Me, I'm retired Navy - It's extremely rare that I hear profanity or insults I haven't heard (or used) before, and I've got quite a few choice insults and creative curses under my belt should I choose to use them...but I found long ago that if I do use them, I hurt my OWN credibility and, if anything, encourage sympathy for my opponent! I mean, sure - some may snicker at the insults, but those who agree with me because of the insults I use are NOT the people I want on my side!
So if you want people to take you seriously, write (and speak) without insults and without profanity. Suddenly you'll find respect from where you never expected it before.
59 - El Bicho
"So if you want people to take you seriously, write (and speak) without insults and without profanity."
Fuck that. Dillon, write however you like. No one appointed Glenn the comment police. The fact that he thinks anyone could have a fruitful conversation with Ruvy shows how wrong his position is.
60 - Dillon Mawler
That was a touching life lesson, Mom.
I'm not interested in "respect" from some pixels on the internet. I am interested in a wide range of people's reactions to current events -- in this case, the very specific call for a terrorist act made by a coward thousands of miles away. Fascinating that my use of "fuck" motivated you to wag your finger, but not that.
61 - Glenn Contrarian
El Bicho and Dillon -
I'm not giving you orders - I'm giving a rebuke and ADVICE. If y'all wanna go ahead and make your arguments completely ineffective because you don't see the value in what I'm telling you, that's your right.
And FYI, El B - I HAVE had a fruitful discussion with Ruvy...interestingly enough, it had to do with the anti-Muslim rhetoric he spouts. I pointed out to him that the more inflammatory his (and other Jews') rhetoric, the more they give the Arabs a reason to hate them. Ruvy was grateful and gracious and said he'd consider it. True, his rhetoric hasn't changed...but the seed may yet take root.
It's said that manners are the grease that lubricate the gears of society. Irritants are like sand in that grease...and if the lubrication is not effective, the gears grow hot and things go downhill from there.
But again, it's your right to make your arguments ineffectual by using insults and profanity. You can lead a horse to water....
62 - zingzing
"remember that road is a two way highway..."
both ways leading to stupid, stupid places.
63 - Ruvy
Glenn,
I took your lesson and used it with someone else, a young soldier who sent a string of curses in Arabic to one of the terrorist leaders. The terrorist responded in kind, and they swore at each other over one of the social media for about an hour or so. I pointed out to the soldier that a good military leader would never have responded with such language at all, but would instead write in a crafted and disciplined fashion, in a manner designed to intimidate, terrify, persuade - or enrage. A thug swears at you in response, I wrote the soldier, and that the terrorist in question was nothing more than an overpaid thug.
The thug then wrote me - swearing at me as well; I took my own advice (and yours). I wrote him a note designed to enrage him by its content (and thus designed to entice him to make mistakes in judgment). But absent was all swearing as is found in the souk or from common midshipmen.
As for Dillon Mawler, that was my last note to him on this thread. While he has very legitimate concerns, his willful blindness to the real threats to his family, and his contemptuous dismissal of the warnings of those threats constitutes terminal stupidity. It's his problem, not mine, and he will suffer for it, if this unfortunate travesty is ever built in New York.
And as he reads this note to you, he will discover that there is more than one form of contemptuous dismissal extant in the universe.
But, I have to tell you, Glenn. Technology is a remarkable thing. That you and I can communicate this way - and that I could even attempt to play with this terrorist's head with nothing more than a few keystrokes of my keyboard is nothing short of wondrous. While "the Awe of G-d is the beginning of Wisdom", the awe for what man can work with His guidance certainly has its place in the world.
Hopefully this note finds you and yours well.
64 - Ruvy
Glenn, I realize that the claims I made in my comment above seem a bit extravagant and exaggerated. They are the cold facts. E-mail me off line, and I'll explain more. Find my e-mail address at my blogspot...
65 - zingzing
america's finest news source weighs in.
66 - El Bicho
"his rhetoric hasn't changed...but the seed may yet take root."
So then it has yet to be fruitful as you stated. You do realize you didn't even make it out of that paragraph before proving your claim false?
I have seen plenty of people to your right on these boards say your arguments have been ineffective, so cursing must not be the stumbling block you make it out to be.
And Dillon makes a great point about what you choose to rebuke in this thread.
67 - Jordan Richardson
Indeed. Something's wrong when we're piling on a guy for swearing but letting some lunatic ramble on about violent actions because it's what we expect of him.
68 - Glenn Contrarian
El B -
It hasn't taken root? Look at Ruvy's comment #63 above. The very fact that Ruvy considered it proves that the seed did indeed take root.
And for Jordan -
Why are you here on BC? Just to interact, to argue? Or to effect change, to stand up for what you believe is right? It's the latter, of course, as it is with me. So that begs the question - should we try to help each other to be more effective? Should we hold each other to a higher standard so that we can be more effective? YES!
If you think I'm "letting Ruvy ramble on", then you haven't seen some of our discussions. The reason I gave the greater rebuke to Dillon is because (1) he's relatively new, (2) he - at least on this issue - is on our side, and (3) could obviously use a heads-up on what's more effective.
Ask yourself who's more effective among the BC conservatives - Dave Nalle? Or Arch-Conservative? In fact, you'll find nearly a strong correlation between who uses more profane language and insults, and who is least EFFECTIVE.
Furthermore, if we GIVE more courtesy and respect even to our opponents, we will generally GET more respect. Conversely, if we give disrespect, we will only get disrespect in return. I really don't think you'll disagree with that.
This certainly doesn't mean that someone who uses more acceptable language will be more effective...but only that someone who uses less acceptable language WILL be more likely to be less effective than he or she would otherwise.
69 - Glenn Contrarian
And for Ruvy -
Thank you. As much as you and I have butted heads, that means a great deal to me.
70 - Jordan Richardson
Glenn,
I'm here on BC because I publish articles here (mostly music reviews) and because I like to interact and have something to do when I'm bored. I wandered into the politics section one fateful day when I was checking out the site and haven't had the good sense to wander back out again.
I mainly find what passes for discussion in the politics section to be a giant waste of time, especially compared to the types of political discussions I usually have with my friends and family.
People here are too stuck in their positions and too dedicated to upholding their rhetorical tricks that it's more of a competition than it is a series of intelligent discussions. People come here to show off and to "win" arguments.
In terms of "higher standards of efficacy," that's all subjective. Telling the "new guy" not to swear or use profanity is akin to scolding and that's something I just find silly. Dillon, in your view, needed help being more "effective." In my view, he was and is doing just fucking fine. Thank you very fucking much. Hence my reaction to what I believe to be the greater evil in these ridiculous comments - and they are ridiculous, sunshine, all of them.
I don't view others here are my "opponents," Glenn, so right there you're going to run into a bit of a problem with how I relate to others here. Again, I'm not trying to win souls for the Kingdom. You may well be, I don't know and I honestly don't care.
You know what I'd like to see more often here? People saying "I don't know." Or how about "I don't have any idea."
I'd like to see a little fucking humility now and then instead of people so damned afraid of admitting a mistake on the internet that they run away from the argument never to be heard from on the topic again. The only recent example I can think of is from Baronius when he told me "I don't know" in response to a theology question I had. He didn't fake knowing like I have hundreds of times and he didn't go hunt around for a Wikipedia page to bolster his lack of knowledge. That simple gesture, not of scolding or rebuking or telling people how to post to be more "effective," was perhaps the most important interaction I've had here. The rest have, by and large, been all bullshit.
Why is it so rare?
Because we see each other as opponents and we see our interactions as contests to win.
I am honestly not going to "effect change" with a nutty internet comment, Glenn. If you believe you are, go right ahead and keep on with it. All the best to you, too.
71 - Jordan Richardson
And look, Dillon was talking about something very personal to him. He's well within his rights and was very effective in communicating that notion with some doltbag that lives thousands of miles away and whose only actual information on the matter comes from people just as bigoted and just as ignorant as he is.
Dillon wasn't here to win an argument or convince Ruvy to join his side and see things clearly. He was here to interact and to share his disgust, rightly fucking so too. He let Ruvy have it with both barrels and, by God, Ruvy deserved every ounce of vitriol aimed his way. And no, Ruvy's not going to change for that. Just like Ruvy's didn't change his mind even when I calmly explain to him that he's wrong about the Muslim Brotherhood and the Wahhabi connection he thinks exists. He believes what he wants whether it's true or not.
And good for him, too. A Ruvy without an insane degree of commitment to even the most violence of convictions just isn't the same.
72 - Jordan Richardson
Also, stop using caps lock. They aren't as "effective" as italics.
73 - Ruvy
Glenn,
I'll not waste my time commenting on Jordan's remarks. It's a waste of time. I know about the Wahhabi here because daily they threaten my life and that of my family. And I do mean threaten. It is not for nothing that the Israeli buses that travel through Judea and Samaria are bullet proof, and that people fear to come out here on common business rounds.
What none of you get is that life is lived more intensely here - in Israel and the Levant generally - than in the west. We do not know when war will break out, and we have seen it break out with stunning suddenness. The fools among you - and you are truly fools - call us "drama queens".
The more you have a Wahhabi presence among you in North America, the more you will be subject to their sudden violence. And you will also live life more on the edge - like we do here.
And now I have serious business to attend to. Good day.
74 - zingzing
"caps lock RULES. you don't have to mess with any of that stupid html shit. and putting "quotation marks" around something just makes it seem "sarcastic.""
see what i did there? yeah? awesome.
i'm going to have to say that ruvy, for all those bags of nuts he totes around with him, is just an angry old man half way across the globe. his rhetoric is hateful and violent. but it's just rhetoric. he talks loud and then claims he's too old to go and fight a war. he IS too damn old to be spouting such shit. people should understand the value of life by that point. and that wasting your life hating and bloodlusting is just a fool's game. and he is a coward.
that said, he's not alone in wasting his life on this shit. radical islam does it. a bunch of people on the american right wing are getting pulled into it.
the shit ruvy spouts is not original. there are probably a few million american dumbass rednecks out there (who don't live in new york city, so don't care if they pull another 9/11 in the city,) who think the same dumbshit way.
if i was ruvy, i'd say, "if some dumbass stupid rightwing american dipshit motherfuckin' redneck blows up downtown new york, i'm going to his town and blowing that downtown up." but you know what? that's stupid. downtown buttfuck, alabama had nothing to do with it. some asshole who doesn't know shit did. and i'd rather punish that asshole. or let his cellmate take over at that point.
/end rant full of cursing.
(see glenn, cursing's alright. it makes its point and gets out of the way. right? fuckin' right.)
75 - zingzing
"And now I have serious business to attend to. Good day."
i bet.