Sometimes, just sometimes, Democrats impress me. John Kerry holding the Scottish government's feet to the fire over the release of Abdul al-Megrahi, for instance. Kerry doesn't buy the argument that it was right to show mercy to the PanAm flight 103 bomber given his (supposedly) terminal illness, as you would normally expect a bleeding heart liberal to do. I also respect Dianne Feinstein for approving of the Patriot Act, supporting the death penalty, and running San Francisco as a centrist during her tenure as mayor of that normally loopy, hard left city. I like Joe Lieberman, of course, for several reasons.
Add to the list Harry Reid and the recently defeated Senate candidate Jeff Greene. Why? For their opposition to the location of the proposed Ground Zero mosque and for criticizing the Messiah's thoughts on the matter.
President Obama's main premise, that we have freedom of worship, is correct, but, as Greene noted, he's got it all wrong. What gets conveniently lost in the liberal left's argument in favor of the mosque is that American citizens have a Constitutional right to voice their opposition to it. What about our First Amendment rights?
Like Reid, one of the highest ranking Democrats to oppose the mosque's location, I feel that this isn't a matter of religious opposition. It's simply the mosque's proposed location, and the powerful symbolism it carries with it that bothers me. Muslims don't like it that we are focusing on the religion of the terrorists that killed 3,000 people nine years ago, but how would they like it if we erected a monument dedicated to the Crusades in a place that carries significant symbolic sentiment to them?
The Constitution should not be wielded as a tool to trump popular opinion in this matter. I have heard so much blather with regard to "good, law-abiding Americans who just happen to be Muslim" wanting to build their Islamic community centre at the Ground Zero location. But are they really thinking this one through?
If the Muslims who sought permission to build at the Cordoba Centre are that respectful, wouldn't they have backed down after realizing how their fellow Americans, assuming they consider us as such, agonized about the symbolic importance of their decision? If they're moderates - as the left is assuring us that they are - can't they understand that it would please everyone if they simply looked elsewhere to erect their place of worship? I think it's an affront of the highest level to blame the average American for his or her "bigotry" when it's the mosque-builders who are being intractable and intransigent.
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Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - El Bicho
Your rights to speak out aren't being affected, but nowhere as far as I know does the Constitution say your feelings are supposed to dictate what someone should do with their private property.
And it's not "at the Ground Zero location". It's a few blocks away. Unlike the Ground Zero of the Pentagon where Muslims are provided a room to pray to Allah. Odd that you didn't mention that in the piece.
You mean the same Harry Reid who is desperate to keep his job? I wouldn't trust anything that guy says.
"it would please everyone if they simply looked elsewhere to erect their place of worship?"
When did you start to speak for "everyone"?
"Feisal Abdul Rauf, described U.S. policy-making as "an accessory to the crime" of 9/11"
That's what Bin Laden claimed. Do you know more than he about the reasons for 9/11? If so, please elaborate.
"New York mayor Michael Bloomberg â€" a RINO (Republican In Name Only) if ever there was one"
He hasn't been a Republican for three years
2 - zingzing
"it would please everyone if they simply looked elsewhere to erect their place of worship?"
you know that the location has been a "mosque" for 16 months already, right? muslims meet and pray there every day, and have for quite some time.
it's only now that they want to add a 9/11 memorial, a pool, a culinary school and a court upon which is played the unholy islamic sport of "basketball" that you get all upset? what gives?
"Feisal Abdul Rauf, described U.S. policy-making as "an accessory to the crime" of 9/11"
and he'd be right. they did it for some reason. it wasn't because they hated our freedom. the truth hurts. but it's the truth. if you're looking for reasons why the terrorists would do such a thing, you have to admit that they have some pretty big gripes with american foreign policy, and rightly so.
"Honestly, why is it so difficult to understand that there is a line being crossed here, a basic level of civility and respect that is being ignored?"
because that line isn't being crossed, or it was crossed 16 months ago. (and the world did not end because of it, and the terrorists didn't win because of it.) you've just been misinformed, and because of that, your opinion of the matter would, whether you want it to or not, go against everything america stands for.
don't let your ignorance of what is actually going on stop you from coming to silly conclusions though. that would be out of character.
3 - zingzing
besides, they only bought the 51 park building to catch the overflow from another muslim prayer room 12 blocks away that was too full. now, they're going to make it into a place that will suck all those prayin' muslims over as well.
it's competition! how american is that? who's going to want to go that stinky old place when this thing's built? and it has a pool! and you can play basketball! and take cooking classes! it's got shit for the kids! it's an all-day event.
and non-muslims are encouraged to go as well. there can be interfaith dialogue. muslim americans will learn about america. americans will learn about muslims. discussion can happen. everything done in the sunshine. and you can go for a swim. i bet it'll be a real nice pool.
it's a chance for a good thing and all the stupid right wing idiots are getting sucked into islamophobia and fear. you've turned what could have been something highly constructive into something highly divisive. it's shameful. and it's music to radical islam's ear.
every sensible person in the world wants an end to terror and hatred. they're looking on in disgust as america fucks this opportunity up.
4 - mcauleysworld
How far away is far enough ... to build a Mosque at Ground Zero ...
First - some basic things we might agree upon...
1) An 8 acre "Memorial Garden" with approximately 450 trees, 2 Ponds around which the names of the " 2700 victims will be engraved" and a Museum are planned ... a "Memorial Garden" or "cemetery" for the 2700 ... the first trees were planted this weekend 08/28/2010.
2). Every Mosque in the world shares one thing with every other Mosque in the world ... do you know what it is? It is called the "adhan" ... which many Westerners incorrectly translate as the "Muslim call to prayer", the literal translation is the "Call to Islam".
3). The prayer lasts from 8 to 20 minutes depending on the "caller" and takes place 5 times a day between dawn and dusk, 7 days a week, 365 times a year ... the "Call" is "broadcast from speakers atop of the Mosque ... and as this Mosque will be located 1 block from Ground Zero - yes one block - you start at the corner of W Broadway and Barclay and walk one block north and you are there, the Mosque will be built on the right hand side ... W Broadway and Barclay, the corner where the original WTC #7 stood ... On the longest day of the summer, (assuming 16 hours of daylight) the "Call" will be heard approximately once every 3 hours .. on the shortest day of the year (assuming 8 hours of daylight) the "Call" will be heard every 90 minutes ...
4). The "Call to Islam" is intended, by design to "proselytize" or "recruit" people to Islam ... Google 'adhan" and select an Islamic site and you will read, "It is intended to bring to the mind of every believer and non-believer the substance of Islamic beliefs, or its spiritual ideology. As the Mosque will be located 1 block away and will be 11 stories tall… the "Call to Islam" will cascade down on all those in the "park" 5 times a day for as long as the Mosque is 1 block away ... visitors and "permanent guests" alike will be subject to the daily intrusion of the "Call" on their acts of prayer and remembrance... or an intrusion on their eternal place of rest ... 5 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
5). The issue is not as simple as a "Freedom of Religion" issue ... is it… the question is how to accommodate "conflicting religions" or "competing religions" in the same place at the same time ...
6). The "Memorial Garden" at Ground Zero is a "Public Memorial" Garden or public Cemetery ... I can assure you unequivocally that if we "magically" transported the "killing fields in Bosnia" where 8000 Muslims were killed in cold blood during the so called "ethnic cleansing", or "Srebrenica Massacre" ... to Ground Zero and then suggested that a "Christian Church" would be built 1 block away, you know, to "build bridges", and that the "Church" would broadcast "Christian Prayers" through "loudspeakers" across the "Memorial Garden" 5 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year ... you'd hear a resounding "I think not" ... and that would be the appropriate thing to say, the appropriate response ... the building permits would never be granted and the denial of permits would be cheered not protested ...
7) The issue isn't what goes on inside the Mosque ... or what goes on inside your home ... the issue is what comes out of the Mosque or your home and how that affects "the rest of the world on the outside" .... and it is this issue that eliminates the false claims that there is some type of mythical "Constitutional Right" to build a "House of Worship" where ever you want or might own property ... a right exists to freedom of worship ... but the right is a limited one not an unlimited one ... Example: The Jehovah's Witnesses can knock on your door to "proselytize" or "recruit" you to their cause, they cannot enter your "church" or a "public cemetery" to do so ...
8). This isn't a "freedom of religion" issue and the President should know this full well ... This issue is one of balancing competing "freedoms" that are equal ... everyone has the right to ball their hand into a fist and jump and spin around with wild abandon ... that right ends when your "balled up hand" makes contact with another's nose ... in this instance the "balled up hand" is the "Call to Islam" and the "nose" belongs to the non-Muslims who want their right to visit the Memorial Garden without the intrusion of the "Call to Islam" respected ... the "nose" belongs to the relatives of the departed who believe the "Call" is an unnecessary intrusion to the "eternal rest" of their departed loved ones... The inescapble point in this ... the Mosque can be located anywhere ... not so for Ground Zero ... despite our best efforts ... we will never locate all the bodies.
8). Hopefully common sense will prevail and the Mosque will be moved far enough away from "Ground Zero" so that those who visit the Memorial Park can do so without the unnecessary intrusion of the "Call to Islam" cascading down around them during their visit ... If not, the American legal system will prevent an unconstitutional governmental endorsement of Islam as our state religion and the 'Ground Zero Mosque" will be moved or prohibited by a Court from broadcasting the "Call to Islam" down upon the "Ground Zero Memorial Park" ...
5 - zingzing
if that's true, then you must be hearing those calls right now, because it already is (and has been) a muslim prayer center (for some time).
and you know, there are over 100 mosques in nyc. i live in nyc. yet i've never heard one of these calls. they must be doing it very, very quietly.
6 - Dr Dreadful
There's a mosque just around the corner from my house as well. Although it has a minaret, it's just for show and no adhans are called from there or from any other point on the building.
Besides which, as has already been pointed out numerous times, the building is only a mosque in the sense that any building in which organized Muslim prayer takes place becomes a mosque - perhaps only temporarily. Its primary function is as a community center.
7 - zingzing
another point shot down. what will they think of next?
8 - Bill B
Talk about cause de jour, that would more aptly describe the rights take on this issue. And this screed is just so much more hogwash, as has been nicely pointed out already.
I'll just touch on one angle that you folks on the right can't seem to wrap your (excuse for a) brain around.
You probably win the prize for the worlds worst analogy. Try this one; Your a non-christian and a catholic church is to be built 2 blocks away from you humble abode. You and other like minded folk protest the proposed project because all catholic priests are child molesters and you feel this will just be another recruiting ground for more molestation.
So you'd be right to point out some priests are child molesters as some moslems are terrorists - but you'd be wrong to paint all priests with that broad brush just as you're wrong to paint all moslems similarly.
You and your ilk are about as un-american as they come. You're too busy erecting straw men about free speech and discovering sensitivity where it has no place trumping common sense to see that you're playing into the hands of the true extremists who's biggest recruiting tool is putting folks like you on display as exhibit #1 in justifying their belief that we're at war with Islam. Nice job.
my post from a different thread -
9 - Mark Edward Manning
Zingzing: " ... and non-muslims are encouraged to go as well. there can be interfaith dialogue. muslim americans will learn about america. americans will learn about muslims. discussion can happen. everything done in the sunshine. and you can go for a swim. i bet it'll be a real nice pool."
And I bet a rainbow will stream from my a** after having an interfaith dialogue (which can be summed up as "we're right and you're going to hell") and gone for a swim their real nice pool. Yea me! Yea everyone! God bless America!
10 - Mark Edward Manning
Bill B:
Better to be "un-American" than to allow people to just trample all over our sensitivities and things of symbolic value while we're expected to stand by with our hands in our pockets and say, "Oh well, golly gee, dum-da-dum-dum."
If this is such a moderate and tolerant sect, Bill, then why are they being so stubborn? That one question still has to be answered.
11 - Ruvy
Mark,
I've seen two articles that are against this travesty - this victory mosque. And the lefty, PC commenters at this site cannot admit that this Rauf fellow - and his backers - have ties to the very terrorists who brought down the WTC.
I wouldn't worry too much about their victory mosque, Mark. If it gets built at all, an American terrorist will blow it up. There are still some patriots left in America. But more to the point, I sense that events will transpire such that this victory mosque will never see as much as a foundation laid.
12 - Bill B
If this is such a moderate and tolerant sect, Bill, then why are they being so stubborn? That one question still has to be answered.
Is wuss a synonym for moderate?
One side is being stubborn about standing up for their rights and not being swayed by un-american fear mongers.
btw, arson at the construction site of the proposed Tennessee mosque. I wonder what lofty ideals are driving that opposition...
The other being stubborn about their ignorance of Islam and refusing to distinguish between the muslims that perpetrated 9/11 and those who are american citizens and not affiliated with/ or sypathizers of those who committed 9/11.
Really pretty obvious who should be backing down. Never bow to ignorant bullies.
Better to be "un-American" than to allow people to just trample all over our sensitivities and things of symbolic value while we're expected to stand by with our hands in our pockets and say, "Oh well, golly gee, dum-da-dum-dum."
Really? It's precisely un-american because this supposed "sensitivity and sybolic value" nonsense doesn't pass the smell test for all the previously stated reasons chief among them the right of private property owners to comply with all local ordinance and build as they see fit.
13 - roger nowosielski
. . .this supposed "sensitivity and sybolic value" nonsense doesn't pass the smell test for all the previously stated reasons chief among them the right of private property owners to comply with all local ordinance and build as they see fit.
This should be the least reason on your list, Bill B, for if you don't, you should well know that "property rights" and "local ordinances" aren't always reliable indices as to what's "right" - unless of course you're swallowing the entire capitalist mindset hook sink and liner. Your earlier posts seemed to indicate you were free of that fallacy. Was my reading wrong?
Furthermore, your use of the term "un-American" also becomes unclear, vague and, dare I say, suspect, when lumped together with your laudatory remarks of the kind indicated above. I do understand Mr. Manning's use of the term, it's clear and unambiguous; but you took it upon yourself to offer a corrective.
So how exactly do you mean it, if it is indeed meant as a corrective?
14 - Laura
THE Answer to the Ground Zero “Mosque” Controversy
HEY AMERICAN on YouTube by NYC songwriter David Ippolito
Watch. Listen. Think... Check out this powerful song/video now
15 - Mark Edward Manning
Ruvy -- "American terrorist"? Don't you mean "freedom fighter"? ;-)
16 - Mark Edward Manning
Bill: Roger's right -- building this mosque where where they've planned it is akin to Donald Trump shitting all over the Scots on whose land he bullied his way onto to build his golf course. Of course, I'm sure he sought the proper planning permisson, so that must make it right.
17 - roger nowosielski
I haven't quite said that, Mark, only punched holes in Bill's argument.
I know however that to refer to a mosque as a community center is a misnomer. It's a community center only if you become an adherent of Islam.
18 - Bill B
Was my reading wrong?
No - but you're reading more into it than was intended. I could've been clearer I suppose.
Merely trying to speak the conservative language - they who hold property rights in such high esteem, thus the 'chief among them reference'.
Isn't it a given that all laws (ordinances) can be either just or draconian? If that were at issue here it would also be part of the discussion but it isn't so it's not, but it is part of the basic building code process and germain to property rights.
As far as un-american goes I didn't feel the need to spell out "all the previously stated reasons", which from my view are more significant, thus why they were stated earlier (in this thread by others as well, and my cutting and pasting from anotther post - growing weary of typing the same stuff over and over!).
That YOU feel the property rights reference (I guess) takes away from that validity would be an indication of your particular view of whether disrepecting property rights, in whatever form, would qualify one as un-american. I believe it's one part of the puzzle, again, emphasized as 'chief among them' for the reason cited above.
Would you pick and choose which laws/ordinances being subverted would qualify one as un-american? Or are there none that would pass your smell test by virtue of your contempt for the concept of 'Law'?
Granted, because a building is being built acording to code doesn't make it right; doesn't make it wrong either. Remember, those opposed DID try an end around by trying to get the building declared an historical landmark so while to their credit that haven't claimed they don't have the right to build it, they did try and make it impossible for it to be built.
19 - mauleysworld
"5 - zingzing
Aug 29, 2010 at 3:22 pm
if that's true, then you must be hearing those calls right now, because it already is (and has been) a muslim prayer center (for some time).
and you know, there are over 100 mosques in nyc. i live in nyc. yet i've never heard one of these calls. they must be doing it very, very quietly."
Honest debate requires truthful dialogue. Google "adhan" as I've suggested and read whetehr it is braodcast for lolud speakers or not ... next research the diffence between a "prayer room", like tgyhose at the Pentagon and a "Mosque". Prayer rooms do not issue the "Call to Islam", the prayer room you are referring to is a "Sufist Prayer Room" and has never issued a "Call to ISlam" before their meetings ... beyond that ... wait there is no beyond that ... you were not truthful about anything in your post ...
20 - mauleysworld
Visit this site: Produced by Muslim's for non-Muslims. Adhan
"Adhan is called out by the muezzin in the mosque, sometimes from a minaret, five times a day summoning Muslims for mandatory (fard) prayers (salah). There is a second call known as iqama (set up) that summons Muslims to line up for the beginning of the prayers. The main purpose behind the loud pronouncement of adhan five times a day in every mosque is to make available to everyone an easily intelligible summary of Islamic belief. It is intended to bring to the mind of every believer and non-believer the substance of Islamic beliefs, or its spiritual ideology. Loudspeakers are installed on minarets for the purpose."
This is not a matter of conjecture, it is fact. Google "adhan" and select anyone of the numerous Islamic sites ...
Not every building with a minaret is a Mosque. Not meanng to embrassass anyone ... but I thought everyone knew that.
21 - zingzing
"you were not truthful about anything in your post ..."
sure i was. i live here, there are 100 mosques here, i've never heard the call to islam. straight up fact. there's a prayer room right now at 51 park. as you say, no call to islam emanating from there. if they build another prayer room at 51 park, will there be a "call to islam" blasted over the 9/11 memorial?
also, you're either tired or drunk. given the time, i'll go with tired.
22 - zingzing
mem: "And I bet a rainbow will stream from my a** after having an interfaith dialogue (which can be summed up as "we're right and you're going to hell") and gone for a swim their real nice pool. Yea me! Yea everyone! God bless America!"
mhmm. so all muslims are, in fact, evil. and stupid. if they were to turn 51 park or whatever they're calling it into some america-hating temple of doom, don't you think they'd be more sneaky about it? at least give them that much credit.
have you ever, even for a second, thought that there might actually be a moderate islam out there? if not, then you are just as bad as radical islam. you don't want this shit to end.
23 - Dr Dreadful
So first Mauley claims that the Muslims will be broadcasting the adhan from Park51, then it's pointed out to him that Park51 isn't a mosque, then he argues that prayer rooms don't issue adhans, so (a) what is his explanation for why zing doesn't hear calls to prayer in NYC, and (b) why does he think a muezzin is going to be hollering all over the 9/11 site if Park51 has only prayer rooms and isn't a mosque?
24 - Dr Dreadful
an interfaith dialogue (which can be summed up as "we're right and you're going to hell")
This isn't necessarily true of the attitude of any pious people, even Christians - and even Ruvy's faith, which is particularly elegant in that it is concerned only with its own people; what the rest of the world believes, or doesn't, is pretty much their own problem.
25 - mauleysworld
Twelve Questions for Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf
1). Will you acknowledge the genocide in Dafur?
2). Do you acknowledge the charges of “War Crimes” brought by the United Nations International Criminal Court against the regime in the Sudan?
3). Will you condemn the genocide in Dafur?
4). Do you, as an individual, recognize an international right, an unalienable right, of all people throughout the world to worship or not worship, as they choose, without fear of harm, an international right to freedom of religion, or freedom from religion, for all people?
5). Do you call upon all leaders, in all lands and of all faiths to recognize this right?
6). Will you call upon the civil, religious and most importantly the theocratic leaders throughout the world to reopen the places of worship that they may have closed or may have been closed by their predecessors, within their lands and to permit the free and unencumbered exercise of the religion of choice by all people in all lands? If not, please explain how your position “is inherently compatible with American life.”
7). Will you acknowledge a universal right of equality between the sexes and call for an end to the “crimes against humanity” being committed in Dafur, Sudan? Will you call for an end to the barbaric and sexist practices of mutilating, stoning and beheading of women, whenever these actions might be occurring throughout the world? If you refuse to condemn these actions will you explain how these actions are “inherently compatible with American life”?
8). Will you call for an immediate end to the barbaric practice of executing individuals because of their sexual orientation and for an end to the equally barbaric practice of drugging and raping virgin’s prior to their execution. (“Members of Iran’s feared Basij militia forcibly marry female virgin prisoners the night before scheduled executions, raping their new “wives” and making it religiously acceptable to execute them, a self-professed member of the paramilitary group says… ” - http://www.news.com.au/iran-virgin-prisoners-raped-for-legal-executions/story-0-1225752873650 ; Google “Virgin Rape Iran” for a long list of articles condemning this barbaric practice )
9). You have refused to acknowledge or condemn HAMAS as a terrorist organization. The Charter of HAMAS states that, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it”. http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
Absent a general condemnation of HAMAS, will you as an Iman and a purported “Liberal/Progressive Muslim American leader”, denounce and condemn this specific component of the HAMAS charter, that your faith, Islam, has the right to ”obliterate” any other People, Race, Religion or Country? Certainly, you must be willing to condemn the basic “concept” that any “faith”, be it Islam or any other faith or religion, has a right to “obliterate” any other faith, people, religion or Country … the Imam does recognize, doesn’t he, that such a concept is not “inherently compatible with American life”.
10). Will you specifically acknowledge that those individuals who choose not to believe in the “One True God” and choose to pursue forms of worship such as; Animism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism or those who choose not to pursue any religion at all, should be left to their personal freedom of expression, whatever it might be and that these individuals should never be put in fear of their life because of the choice they make and will you condemn those who will not acknowledge this universal right?
11). Was the execution of Saddam Hussein for “crimes against humanity” a just and acceptable action under Islamic Law as you understand that law?
12). You have expressed an unusual position on the United Nations sanctions against Iraq; using those sanctions to justify the attack on innocent civilians in the WTC on 911 because of the “blood on American hands” that you associate with the United Nation’s Iraqi sanctions.
The United Nations has recently initiated a host of sanctions against Iran. Will those sanctions serve as a justification in your mind if other attacks are launched by extremist Islamic Militants against innocent American civilians?
Imam, we all know that only the extremists follow Jihad and that “they” do not represent the true Islam … the question is what type of Muslim are you Imam … are you a “Wolf in sheep’s clothing”?