An' I don't mind 'em switchin' sides
An' standin' up for things they believe in
When they're runnin' down my country, man
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.” — Merle Haggard, "Fightin' Side of Me"
"Thank God for dead Soldiers."
"Fag sin = 9-11."
"God blew up the troops."
If any one of those statements above didn’t make your blood boil, I don’t know what will. Perhaps you’ve heard, but in case you didn’t, on Monday, March 15, the U.S. Supreme Court agreed to hear the case of one Fred Phelps and his Topeka, Kansas-based, lunatic fringe Westboro Baptist Church. (HELLO! All you Baptists out there, are you paying attention to what a group is doing to your faith?!)
My feelings towards Phelps run into the unprintable so I’ll stick to the facts here and let you be the judge. Phelps and his group have this nasty habit of showing up at the funerals of fallen service members with signs depicting phrases like those above, and worse. They go out of their way to disrupt the funeral and inflict more pain and suffering on a family laying their loved one to final rest.
The father of one slain Marine, Albert Snyder of York, Pennsylvania took the group to court after they showed up at his son’s funeral. A Maryland federal court ruled in favor of Snyder and awarded him $5 million, but last fall an appeals court reversed the $5 million verdict, ruling the church's protests were protected by the First Amendment.
And now we get to the crux of the issue: free speech. This isn’t about your feelings about homosexuality. This has nothing to do with your beliefs that homosexuality is morally wrong and reprehensible before the eyes of God. This isn’t about you, this isn’t about Fred Phelps, and this isn’t about all the gays and lesbians in this country.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - RJ
"(HELLO! All you Baptists out there, are you paying attention to what a group is doing to your faith?!)"
What, exactly, are mainstream Baptists supposed to do about it? They can't silence them (First Amendment), nor can they force them to stop being - or at least calling themselves - "Baptists" (also First Amendment).
I'm fairly certain that 99% of mainstream Baptists find these kooks to be repellent. Nobody that I'm aware of has embraced them. So what can be done?
2 - RJ
"You can’t yell fire in a crowed [sic] room"
Sure you can - as long as there really is a fire, or at least that you have a reasonable suspicion that there is a fire.
3 - RJ
"you can’t insight a riot"
Should be "incite."
Who edited this?
4 - Silas Kain
For the record, I detest Fred Phelps and almost everything he represents. In my opinion, he is using his "faith" as a mechanism toward a more sinister goal than he claims. However -- he has the right to free speech. But in exercising his right, I believe it becomes incumbent upon him and his merry band of followers to be financially responsible should violence break out at a protest. Here's a test case in point:
A soldier dies in Iraq. His/her body is brought back for burial. The family has the right to bury their own with some modicum of dignity. Phelps and his group have the right to stage a protest but in doing so they must accept responsibility for their actions. They should pay for the extra law enforcement and in the event of violence, they should be responsible for all the costs associated with the same. Phelps and his followers have an infinite host of alternatives in expressing their protestations. If they choose to make a protest in public at a venue not of their liking then they should pay for every bloody cent of controlling it. And, if they cause physical or emotional harm to the survivors of OUR dead, they should be prepared to deal with the consequences.
5 - Jessica Lada
In addition, he makes Kansans (like me) look bad. I'm not cool with that.
Freedom of speech is incredibly important to me. If we didn't have it, I couldn't do my job. But Phelps does more than just speak his mind, he protests. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." But as far as I can see, this allows people the right to petition the government. It's so that we are allowed to voice our feelings in opposition of the government and make our voices heard. That has nothing to do with stomping on a family's god given right to bury their son or daughter or whoever in peace. If shouting "fire" in a crowded theater isn't protected by the first amendment, then Phelps shouting "god hates fags" at a funeral shouldn't be protected either.
6 - Benjamin
To RJ - good catch on insight vs. incite 5 in the morning brain, sorry. As to what do I expect other churches to do? Same thing I expect moderate musilms to do -- condemn and speak out against this hate. The sad truth is that Phelp's actions are tarring the good work done by many religious organizations by tying his protests to a church just like radical muslims are doing to the Islamic faith.
7 - Benjamin
And RJ, to your point about yelling fire -- really you're going to split that hair?! You know what was meant, the phrase is road worn and weary.
8 - Silas Kain
And another thing. Rev. Phelps' volatile reaction to homosexuality convinces me of ONE thing. Fred Phelps has more in common with Eric Massa, Larry Craig, David Dreier and Charlie Crist than not. Usually "God fearing" men who are this flammable are usually flamers. There. How's that for exercising free speech? So, you fundamentalist cowards, which among you will come forth and sell your story to the national Enquirer? You know you're out there!
9 - Ruvy
I don't know about any of you folks out there, but I'm a Brooklyn boy. Definition? A Brooklyn boy is someone who understands clearly that a baseball bat's uses do not end with hitting baseballs. Other spherical objects - like skulls - are also good for practicing that line drive.
With his Jew-hatred, this putz Phelps has managed to piss off this Brooklyn boy.
I don't live in America anymore. If I still did, this putz Phelps would understand never to piss off a Brooklyn boy. He and the shitheads he calls "worshipers" are very lucky that I live a third of a world away from him....
It's so good to be alive....
10 - Dave Nalle
I'm fairly certain that 99% of mainstream Baptists find these kooks to be repellent.
You clearly don't spend much time with Baptists, RJ. But they are certainly marginally less reprehensible than many of your evangelicals and charismatics in this area.
Dave
11 - zingzing
oh, dave... not all baptists are bad. back when i lived in the south (and a few times when i lived in seattle), i used to regularly go to baptist churches to get down on some gospel music. thrilling stuff when they get going. of course, that was mostly black baptist churches, while the real humdinger retarded baptists seem to be of the white hew and in a southern locale. and while i wouldn't bet on rj's 99% figure, i wouldn't go much further down than 90%. phelps is far too far out there, even for the most ridiculous baptist.
ruvy--did phelps' gay-bashing make you angry at all? (i've noticed it's a subject you tend to keep your distance from...)
12 - RJ
"You clearly don't spend much time with Baptists, RJ. But they are certainly marginally less reprehensible than many of your evangelicals and charismatics in this area."
I will readily admit that a significant percentage of Baptists probably have a strong dislike for homosexuals.
But seriously. How many Baptists do you think support people who protest with "GOD HATES FAGS" and "GOD LOVES DEAD AMERICANS" at the funerals of Marines and soldiers?
I'm thinking almost none.
13 - Silas Kain
There are plenty of decent Baptists. The douche bag ones are those who suffered oxygen deprivation during immersion. In the Phelps case however, his conception was an abomination of God's law -- his was a misdirected session of sodomy.
14 - Ruvy
zing,
Phelps' gay-bashing - and his reprehensible behavior at the funerals of American soldiers disgusted me. And in comments several years ago here I said as much.
If any of these shits any pulled any of this kind of crap in Israel - particularly dishonoring a soldier about to be buried - they would be beaten up until they were dead. And nobody would say a word to complain.
Not too long ago, Phelps and his minions decided to take off publicly and go after Jews. It hadn't been the first time, and had I known his attitudes previously, I would have said several years ago what I'm telling you now.
Phelps and his followers deserve to be crucified. I mean that literally - nailed on a cross half naked so their bones will sag on the cross and slowly kill them while they die from exposure. They, of all "Christians", deserve to experience first hand the alleged fate of their "savior". They deserve to know what Roman savagery is like. They have placed themselves beyond the pale of civilized behavior.
15 - Jordan Richardson
Phelps is the way he is because of a bizarre combination of drug abuse and Calvinism. He firmly believes that only he and a few others, and I really mean a few (like two or three), are going to be able to get into heaven.
The rest are fucked, hence his behaviour towards 99% of humanity. We're all, Canadians and Jews and fags, going to hell.
16 - Alan Kurtz
I distrust squirrelly young men in spectacles who dress up like Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now, quote the likes of Merle Haggard, and threaten to give an 80-year-old pastor "a hard punch in the nose" to prove what red-blooded Americans they are.
In March 1973, two weeks before the last U.S. combat troops pulled out of Vietnam, Merle Haggard (having been pardoned by California Governor Ronald Reagan for crimes that had landed Haggard in San Quentin) celebrated "the way of life our fightin' men have fought and died to keep" by entertaining President Richard Nixon at a black-tie soiree in the East Room of the White House. Obviously, some are called to serve and others are called to sing. Funny, though, how nobody airlifted from Saigon was invited to exchange his smelly fatigues for a freshly pressed tux and join Merle, Dick and the First Lady for a photo op. Tellingly, the only active serviceman in attendance that delightful Saturday evening was Lieutenant (junior grade) David Eisenhower, grandson of the 34th President, son-in-law of the 37th President (the aforementioned Dick), and inspiration for Creedence Clearwater's "Fortunate Son" about the preferential treatment received during the Vietnam era by those born to position. If I were you, I'd go easy on mythologizing Merle Haggard as a great patriot.
As for the issue at hand, the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last fall that the protestors were protected by the First Amendment. The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to review the case, but meanwhile the Appeals Court decision remains the law of the land.
I'm no constitutional scholar, yet clearly neither are you nor the other commenters on this thread. Jessica Lada (#5), for example, says the First Amendment "allows people the right to petition the government. It's so that we are allowed to voice our feelings in opposition of the government and make our voices heard. That has nothing to do with stomping on a family's god given right to bury their son or daughter or whoever in peace." What she overlooks is that Lance Cpl. Matthew A. Snyder was killed accidentally while assigned to the Marine Expeditionary Force occupying Iraq at the U.S. Government's behest. If our nation's leaders squandered this 20-year-old's life in a needless, immoral war, we have not only a right to express our outrage but a duty as citizens of conscience to do so. And if we must test the limits of constitutional protection to make our protest effective, so be it.
For now, we ought to let the legal process run its course before resorting to violence. First you incite riot with your inflammatory words and cocked fist. Then Ruvy wades in with his Louisville Slugger (#9) and later (#14) advocates crucifying Phelps and his followers. "I mean that literally," snarls Ruvy, "nailed on a cross half naked so their bones will sag on the cross and slowly kill them while they die from exposure. They, of all 'Christians,' deserve to experience first hand the alleged fate of their 'savior.' They deserve to know what Roman savagery is like." (Note how Ruvy puts quotation marks around not just 'Christians' but 'savior,' calling into question both Phelps's legitimacy as a Christian and Jesus' status as our savior.)
Honestly, how does all this invective advance your cause? When you denounce Pastor Phelps and his supporters as "idiots" and "lunatics," and the ever-delicate Silas Kain (#13) blathers about how Phelps's "conception was an abomination of God's law--his was a misdirected session of sodomy," you do nothing more than lower yourselves to the pastor's level of discourse. And when Ruvy calls for the application of Roman savagery, he drags you all beneath the pastor's lowest rants.
17 - Benjamin
Hi Alan,
Nice post. As to that hat, I was assigned to the 1st Cavalry Division (as was Duvall in Apocalypse Now) while overseas and it was a rare moment we were allowed to wear our Stetsons … It always amazes me how many people go after the damn hat …
I get what you’re saying about Merle, not trying to mythologize him, just no other lyric comes even close to expressing the feelings I have for Mr. Phelps.
I also understand what you’re saying about sinking to Phelp’s level but I’ve also come to the belief that in rare times, when the other side is so egregious, we have no choice to fight fire with fire. I feel that too often by trying to maintain an air of loftiness and appealing to a higher instinct, we (all inclusive of any of the “other side”) loose our point in the fray by not being loud enough. I long ago lost my belief that appealing to one’s intellect, in the majority of cases, proved any worth.
And no worries, while I still I’d go after Phelps and his group, I’d never punch an 80-year old man, I was definitely referring to one of his followers, more my “own size.”
And please don’t think I’m backing down from my statement, most certainly I feel my anger would get the better of me and I’d be at the front of an altercation with this group.
If the same group were to hold their protest during some parade (as say the KKK or neo-Nazi groups have often done) or in a different location (say the other side of town) on the same day as the funeral, I wouldn’t be even as close to upset. As is, this group purposely interjects themselves into the most volatile of situations to make as inflammatory of a point as possible.
18 - Jordan Richardson
(Note how Ruvy puts quotation marks around not just 'Christians' but 'savior,' calling into question both Phelps's legitimacy as a Christian and Jesus' status as our savior.)
Can't imagine why he would do that...
19 - Ruvy
Jordan,
I don't believe in Christianity or in the divinity of Jesus - but assuming for a moment that I did, I don't think any messiah would see fit to save Phelps from the lake of fire he deserves to burn in.
With the exception of one or two individuals who have commented here over the 4½ years I've been here, there is nobody I would be so nasty to as to assume his religion had no validity at all - nobody how much I disagreed with him.
20 - Jordan Richardson
Ruve, it's not me who's confused about your beliefs. :)
21 - Ruvy
That should have read, "no matter how much I disagreed with him".
22 - jeannie danna
Bennjamin,
YES, this does make my blood boil, and it seems to me that the Court has lost its' mind.
When I see that money has a LOUDER voice and more civil rights in this country than individual human beings and that this FRED, can disgrace our loved ones who died for HIS FREEDOM then I say it is time for TERM LIMITS in the SUPREME COURT.
Great article!
23 - Ruvy
Ruvy wades in with his Louisville Slugger (#9) and later (#14) advocates crucifying Phelps and his followers. "I mean that literally," snarls Ruvy, "nailed on a cross half naked so their bones will sag on the cross and slowly kill them while they die from exposure. They, of all 'Christians,' deserve to experience first hand the alleged fate of their 'savior.' They deserve to know what Roman savagery is like."
More often than not Alan, YOUR legal system does not work when it comes to dealing with people who deal out hatred - particularly needless hatred. Even the Catholics who condemn homosexual behavior at least have the decency to say "love the sinner and hate the sin". It's a big line of bullshit, but at least the homosexual who wants to follow the Vatican's dictates has chastity as a way out of Rome's version of a "lake of fire". That's a whole lot different from "god hates fags".
Any asshole who calls for my death, and Phelps has called for the death of all Jews, is my enemy. A Louisville Slugger or a cross is a good way to get rid of these bastards. And as a Jew who does not believe in taking shit from anybody, that is the appropriate solution to the sick fucks who constitute the followers of this piece of garbage, Phelps. That was the appropriate solution to the Nazis in 1926 as well, and is the appropriate solution to anyone who calls for the death of my brethren and sisters - this especially applies to the Wahhabi garbage who pollute Islam with their heresy.
As I said originally, this bastard Phelps is very lucky I live a third of a world away. It ain't a long drive down I35 to reach this garbage and burn down his church.
24 - Alan Kurtz
Ruvy, since you advocate church burnings and crucifixion, I'd say Pastor Phelps isn't the only American lucky that you live a third of a world away. We are ALL positively blessed that you emigrated.
25 - El Bicho
While they have every right to say whatever disgusting thing they like, I surprised the appellate court doesn't see how this can incite a riot.