Election of a conservative in France is a revolution for strong economic policies and signals the continuing decline of socialist thought.
Sources are reporting that center-right French Presidential candidate Nicolas Sarkozy has won the election by about ten points in France. The results mark the latest European government to make a rightward lurch in political orientation in the last several years.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Bengt Larsson
Socialist candidates won in Italy and Spain on running against the Iraq war. And Jaques Chirac was expected to be a conservative like them by American conservatives. Just some additional facts.
27 - MCH
"John Bambenek #9
there just aren't American-lovers in large numbers in France.
correction John-there just aren't American-lovers in large numbers in the world."
- Joe
Preemptive invasions and occupations of foreign countries will do that to a nation.
28 - Dave Nalle
Hope that helps clear things up for you.
Clear as mud, Zedd. Thanks. What about the criminal penalties for employers who pay workers to stay and work overtime voluntarily? How did that help out?
Dave
29 - Dave Nalle
You know, the mere fact that Royal's supporters rioted after she lost the election is a pretty clear sign that Sarkozy was the right person to vote for.
Dave
30 - STM
Can anyone tell me what Sarkozy's French values are?
I always thought such things included supreme arrogance, duplicitous behaviour, bad waiters, poor service, a seriously lacking work ethic, intellectual pretence, poor personal hygiene, and shocking men's haircuts (in fact, most of the things the French say say about the English but without the bad food) - but I fear I've been wrong all these years. Perhaps in the new France, Sarkozy will put all this to rights.
I will give 'em one thing, though: nowadays, they make bloody good cars.
31 - Bengt Larsson
Dave #29, Yup. Protests always indicate that protestors are wrong.
32 - Mark Edward Manning
"The fact that such a large turnout fell strongly behind Sarkozy indicates that France will not go silently into the night."
Refreshing indeed. Give all due credit to the French for having something resembling a backbone after all!
33 - Mark Edward Manning
Re: Dave Nalle, comment #1: "Or maybe the French just weren't ready to elect a hot chick to the presidency."
Nah, the French idolize the female form. Put it this way, if Sego had had the same policies and convictions as Sarko, it would have been a Sego landslide!
At least I'm going to give the French the benefit of the doubt on this one!
34 - Bengt Larsson
I'm a Swede, so perhaps I shouldn't be defending the French, but on work ethic, it's true that the French work few hours and have long vacations, but they are more productive per hour - about 10% more. They work hard when they work.
By the way do you ever look anything up before commenting on it? Or is that too radical?
35 - Mark Edward Manning
Re: Alessandro Nicolo, #4: "Second, Sarkozy may not be a bowl of cherries to look at for us gents but he is indeed good for France."
I must disagree. Sarkozy isn't bad-looking at all. The charisma he exudes can be seen in his face. He is not like most French politicians, e.g. Mitterand, Chirac, De Gaulle, De Villepin, etc., in that he is not afraid to smile. And he has got a winning smile.
36 - bliffle
#25 " May 8, 2007 @ 03:26AM " Christopher Rose
"Productivity is over-rated. viva la siesta!"
Indeed. Once outside the precincts of such degenerate Americanized areas as Paris one finds the "Midi" fully in effect. Chased from Bricoman a few days ago for daring to try to find some post-war hardware at 12:05, I was forced to drive all around the parking lot as they had chained the gates as punishment for my being on the premises at a time when any decent person would be at home spreading his viands, bread and wine on the outside table under the dappled sunlight of a tree with his entire family present. Finding a tiny exit I was condemned to drive home observing the many content French families gathering for their midday feast and other activities.
37 - Clavos
Bengt writes:
I'm a Swede, so perhaps I shouldn't be defending the French, but on work ethic, it's true that the French work few hours and have long vacations, but they are more productive per hour - about 10% more.
Actually, Bengt, the US Bureau of Labor Statistics data indicates that, currently, the most productive European nation is.........Sweden!
As a Swedish-American with lots of family there, I'm not surprised.
BTW, productivity in this context has little to do with how "hard" individuals work; it's a measure of output, which is much more affected by hours worked per worker per year, degree of automation of industry, etc.
38 - alessandro Nicolo
STM, actually they make better rockets and helicopters now. :<)
Someone muttered something about leftists and riots. Isn't it a given that France is socialist?
Mark Edwards, I meant in relation to Royal. Never thought anyone would pull out that line. Yes, he's easy on the eyes. Though I can see im in an SNL skit.
Zedd, yes. Clearer. Some argue it did lead to better employment figures. France had double digit unempployments around the time the 35-hour rule came in. Now it hovers around 8.5% according to The Economist. Remember, that five hour saved gives an employer a chance to higher another body - thus in theory leading to better productivity. But real productivity remains weak according to many observers. I took for granted GDP PER CAPITA and NOT HOUR. I generally don't look at this for a multiple of reasons. But you're right on the surface France's numbers are high - too high.
However, you'll have to produce your source because the ones I use do indeed have France performing well but NONE categorically assert France (Bank of France, OECD) is the best performer despite in some cases higher numbers. As is the case with economic figures, they are debateable.
According to the Bank of France "after thorough analysis" the EU and France trail U.S. levels and this sounds about right. There are a bunch of things to consider (observed rates, unemployment etc.) than just the final numbers and "10% higher' conclusions. In this light, Germany, Japan and USA have always (historically) been far more productive. In some years even Italy and Canada outperformed France in the G7. That's why, I think, GDP/PER CAPITA is the most used stat given that it probably gives a better overall reflection. Breaking them down to per hour does not necessarily tell the truth.
Though I have always read about economic figures, I'm no economist so I'll stop here. That said, I agree with people: it's not all about economics. You need some siesta - but not too much.
Mr Larsson, good enough for you? Don't be presumptuous. We could do without the smug sarcasm. I thought Swedes were polite.
39 - alessandro nicolo
Zedd, I just want to add; after I reread my note. This is not to outright dismiss the high per hour figures in France; there is something to be said of them. I put a little too much weight on the Bank of France who are perhaps are a little too hard on France.
What I like about France (even though I often disgaree with their politics) is that they mix in a good balance of work ethic (which wasn't always the case which is another reason why I was skeptical) and joie de vivre. I see this in parts of Italy too(by the way in case you are wondering I visit both countries often thanks to friends and family). There's a time to work, take vacation and play. Spain is also learning to balance things out as their recent astounding economic performance shows.
Economic figures are not the be and end all.
Anyway, just wanted to add this.
40 - handyguy
Dave: You know, the mere fact that Royal's supporters rioted after she lost the election is a pretty clear sign that Sarkozy was the right person to vote for.
This is assuming that the protesters voted at all, and that the riots were pro-Royal rather than protesting Sarkozy's intemperate rhetoric about immigrants. And the protests don't prove anything about either candidate anyway. What a silly and superfluous thing to say.
41 - MCH
"Refreshing indeed. Give all due credit to the French for having something resembling a backbone after all!"
- Mark Edward Manning
Are they any less than yourself?
42 - Michael J. West
Now this
whenever conservatism is on the ballot (unhindered by corruption, bad implementation of policies, or personal problems) conservatism wins.
Is just a silly comment, JB, because you could replace the word "conservatism" with "liberalism" and it would not be even slightly less true.
43 - handyguy
Now this
"whenever conservatism is on the ballot (unhindered by corruption, bad implementation of policies, or personal problems) conservatism wins."
Is just a silly comment, JB, because you could replace the word "conservatism" with "liberalism" and it would not be even slightly less true.
Truth, accuracy, and reasonableness are not high on the list of priorities of several writers here, including some who are editors. Controversy, deliberate exaggeration and distortion are instead given more importance. To drive traffic, I suppose. Not very inspiring, is it?
44 - Dr Dreadful
#25: Christopher, thank you for challenging (albeit with tongue in cheek) the notion that a reduction in the work week is necessarily a bad thing - which many writers and commenters on this site seem to regard as a given.
Not everyone, even in the work-crazy US of A, wants to toil away endlessly until their fingers fall off and they forget where they live. There's also a lot of evidence to suggest that working excessively long hours has a detrimental effect on health, family life and, yes, productivity.
45 - Dr Dreadful
I mean, seriously, Americans: the frontier's been conquered and you're the world's only superpower. You can relax now!
46 - Dave Nalle
Dave #29, Yup. Protests always indicate that protestors are wrong.
That's certainly the case when they're mainly just excuses for looting and burning cars.
Dave
47 - steve
vive la revolution!!! finally a conservative in France...hopefully willing to develop a partnership with Supreme Warlord Bush!! verrry nice!!
48 - Zedd
alessandro
If only you could be cloned. I seriously enjoy your commentary. I don't always agree with you but strangely enough if I held all of your views, I would say exactly what you respond with (except in a girlized way :o). I also apreciate your clear desire to have meaningful dialouge as aposed to just wanting to be right.
Despite figures showing a higher productivity per hour worked than in the US, France's GDP per capita is significantly lower than the US GDP per capita, being in fact comparable to the GDP per capita of the other European countries, which is on average 30% below the US level. The reason for this is that a much smaller percentage of the French population is working compared to the US, which lowers the GDP per capita of France, despite its higher productivity. In fact, France has one of the lowest percentages of its population aged 15-64 years at work among the OECD countries. In 2004, 68.8% of the French population aged 15-64 years was in employment, compared to 80.0% in Japan, 78.9% in the UK, 77.2% in the US, and 71.0% in Germany.[25] This phenomenon is the result of almost thirty years of massive unemployment in France, which has led to three consequences reducing the size of the working population: about 9% of the active population is without a job; students delay as long as possible their entry into labour market; and finally, the French government gives various incentives to workers to retire in their early 50s, though these are now receding. France.com
I will look for other sources online to support my statement regarding the GDP per hour . Again, France does fall below the US in overall productivity. They are more productive in the time that they work.
Now I KNOW you are not American. Are you???
49 - Zedd
Dr Dread,
What causes the frantic behavior (over working) partly is the myth of the American dream. What happened with a few in the last century (J.P Morgan and Co.) caused EVERYONE to believe that they too can become wealthy if they just try hard. Sort of like the gold rush.
Yes all strive to do better economically but in this country its as if one HAS to strive for complete wealth or they are lazy. This notion also causes us to pretend as if we are all doing well. 70% of us live from pay check to pay check, yet we spend insanely to uphold the image of "up and comer". Because we over spend, we have to work to support our ruse. We don't save and we are in debt. Dave will say otherwise.
Its sort of cyclical.
What is wonderful however is that there are enough jobs to support our habits.
50 - Zedd
@Dave
What about the criminal penalties for employers who pay workers to stay and work overtime voluntarily?
Please tell me more about that and how it relates to the work week reduction for the purpose of decreasing unemployment.
Just trying to understand what you are saying.
51 - Dave Nalle
After reducing the length of the work week, the French government discovered that people were voluntarily working more than the legally allowed 35 hours, often without additional pay. They formed a special police task force to watch workers at certain companies and then brought criminal charges against the workers for working illegal overtime.
This kind of stuff is why Sarkosy was elected.
Dave
52 - MBD
#49... "What is wonderful however is that there are enough jobs to support our habits."
Yes. I understand that McDonald's can't find enough help to support our habits of eating their low-cost, high-fat burgers and sugar-laden soft drinks to fill our size 52 pants.
But as I understand it, things will get even better as we graduate more engineers and scientists than other countries such as India and China.
There is no telling how good it will get.
53 - STM
Dave: Well mate, if the government sets the working week at 35 hours and conditions of pay for overtime, then if you work over that, you should be bloody well paid for it. That's the whole idea of overtime, and as other commentators have pointed out here, French workers (and methods of construction) are actually extremely productive for the most part.
They are so productive, I can buy a French-designed car in Australia built in a UK French factory for the same price it would cost me to buy a locally made product. While Aussie-built cars are of good quality, there's no getting away from the fact that I can buy a fully-imported imported European equivalent of French origin for much the same price. Aussie workers, BTW, work a standard 38-hour week, not 40. Our annual vacations are on par with the French though, and as an example, because I work shifts, weekends and public holidays, I can have seven weeks a year or four with three weeks' extra pay at Christmas. We also get paid leave loading on our leave - mine is an extra 17 per cent, which is a decent whack.
Besides, what is wrong with workers wanting to earn extra? It's an exchange with the employer for higher productivity and higher profits. It shouldn't all be one-way traffic - you help an employer increase profits, you get remunerated at the proper overtime rate.
However, the French government should have been charging the employers for making people work unpaid overtime, rather than the workers.
54 - Clavos
Stan,
I think you misread Dave. He said:
the French government discovered that people were voluntarily working more than the legally allowed 35 hours, often without additional pay. (emphasis added)
And:
They formed a special police task force to watch workers at certain companies and then brought criminal charges against the workers for working illegal overtime. (emphasis added)
If the workers weren't being coerced in any way, it's none of the government's business, IMO.
55 - STM
Hey there Clav old boy. Here's my leftist bent coming out - no, I didn't misread it. What I'm saying is, the companies obviously have had a role in that, and if they want workers to do extra work, they should pay them.
And it's the employers who allow them to work the voluntary, unpaid overtime who should be charged, not the workers.
In many cases, people often volunteer to work the extra hours because they are made to feel their jobs might be at risk if they don't.
Under the generous labour laws of France, anyone working overtime - voluntary or not - should be paid overtime by their employer.
I'll reiterate: France is a place with a great standard of living, generous wages and high productivity - and is at the forefront of many tecnologies (dang, I hate giving the buggers a wrap). Because it's different from what you know in the US, it doesn't make it wrong. It has worked for them, and will continue to do so. I don't see that much changing in Sarkozy's France.
You will also find that Sarkozy's party, considered quite right of centre in Europe, will have policies that will be like those of a middle-of-the-road Democrat, which gives you some idea of how far to the right politics are in America.
56 - Dave Nalle
if the government sets the working week at 35 hours and conditions of pay for overtime, then if you work over that, you should be bloody well paid for it.
Absolutely. The problem is that the French government made it illegal for them to work overtime whether or not they were paid, no matter how much they wanted to do it.
A lot of those workers - as you pointed out - were very productive and dedicated to their jobs. They wanted their projects to be successful and to be completed on schedule regardless of how much they had to work, but the government made that kind of dedication to their jobs illegal.
That's the problem in a nutshell.
Dave
57 - STM
Mate, I believe you are quite wrong as my understanding is that the French government had not banned paid overtime at all, and that is at the heart of the problem here.
The illegality is is working overtime without pay, and companies allowing workers to do so, because the regulations are very strictly enforced. Any work in France under the current legislation must be paid as overtime (or given as time off in lieu or a combination of both) after reaching the 35-hour threshold, with a 10 per cent per-hour wage premium involved up to the 40th hour. Between the 40th and 47th hour, the premium is 25 per cent and it rises to 50 per cent extra per hour thereafter.
So, you either get paid overtime - or you don't do it, under the law. But there is no law that says workers can't work overtime, and indeed, many French employers and employees rely on it.
In my view, that's fair.
58 - Christopher Rose
If the French are voluntarily working unpaid overtime for the benefit of their employers rather than being coerced into it, I'm a je ne sais quoi!
59 - Zedd
Dave
I thought thats what you were saying....
It is just as illegal to work an hourly employee over 40hrs here without over time pay.
Whats the issue?
The companies were supposed to hire new workers to work the hours that were no longer being worked. They got greedy. The productivity stayed the same with less hours worked but they wanted more without commiting to an employee (its hard to fire an older employee in France).
I hope NOW you see things clearly.
60 - Dave Nalle
No, you're not getting it, Zedd. This is a great example of how completely alien to our cultural expectations what they've been doing in France is.
It's not that it's illegal there to work more than 35 hours without overtime pay, it's that it's illegal to work more than 35 hours whether you're paid or not. If you stay at work 1 hour over those 35 then you're a criminal, even if they pay you $1000 an hour overtime. Even if you voluntarily stay there an extra hour and freely choose not to be paid you're breaking the law.
Are you getting it yet?
Dave
61 - Zedd
Dave
What is wrong with that? I still don't see where your contention is. They also have 5 weeks vacation. American companies are flocking to France, because of their superior engineers. They work 35hr work weeks and are still among the world's strongest economies. Where is the bad part.
Would your biggest contention be that they are not us? Perhaps they should import millions of illegals to work outside of the books for nothing to support their economy.
62 - Dr Dreadful
Zedd, comment #49:
Agreed. America's whole ethics system is structured around the Horatio Alger myth: the idea that anyone can rise from rags to riches through sheer hard work. But in reality that's just not true. Most of America's richest folks come from families that have been monied for generations. Even those who don't (Bill Gates, Warren Buffett) didn't exactly start out on the bottom rung. There's a lot of data which shows that the social class you're born into is the one you're likely to stay in.
So why does the myth persist? It's just one of those things that's seen as quintessentially American; something to hold onto despite the reality. Every nation has myths about themselves, like the British believing that their country is still 'Great' - and (segueing neatly back into the original topic of this thread) the French believing that they are a world power despite all evidence to the contrary (such as consistently losing every war they get themselves involved in).
63 - Dave Nalle
Maybe someone else could explain this to you better, Zedd. My point is that you are not ALLOWED to work extra hours, paid or unpaid, even if you want to. If you don't see how that's a problem, then you should probably move to France.
Dave
64 - Dave Nalle
There's a lot of data which shows that the social class you're born into is the one you're likely to stay in.
Actually, the data suggests only about a 14% chance that you'll stay in the lowest income group and about a 86% chance you'll move up into a higher group during any 10 year period, including about a 14% chance you'll move from the lowest income quintile to the highest.
Dave
65 - Dr Dreadful
including about a 14% chance you'll move from the lowest income quintile to the highest.
That sounds like an awful lot of rags-to-riches millionaires. Where are they all?
66 - Dr Dreadful
My point is that you are not ALLOWED to work extra hours, paid or unpaid, even if you want to.
Not quite as black-and-white as that, Dave, as I understand it.
Within the insistence on an average 35-hour work week, the law does allow for quite a bit of flexibility. I suspect that the reason a lot of businesses don't like it is because it gives them very little leeway for screwing their employees over.
67 - Zedd
Dave
Don't fancy yourself so deep that what you say perplexes anyone :o).
I understand your words. I don't see the problem. However I forget that I am supposed to have a voluntary response supposed good and bad when conversing with some of our countrymen.
I don't see a problem with that because that is their country and their system. That part belongs to their puzzle not ours. In this country if you don't put in the extra time, you are not a team player. Is that good?
Also many jobs are categorized as managerial so that they can not be classified as hourly. People HAVE to work well over 40hrs in order to keep their jobs. That is OUR system.
The French think that by making such laws they will provide jobs for THEIR people and thus make their state a more PERFECT "union". They are coming up with solutions to try and solve THEIR issues. Unlike us who make a rule and hope it will work for eternity no matter what. If people fall off of the unemployment rolls we still keep moving pretending as if the world is just so..... When people are uninsured we just keep trucking pretending as if they don't exist however deluding ourselves that we are a more perfect union when in actually we are just a more delusional one.
Every organization whether it is a local league of the Lions club or a nation, has its problems. The solutions that work for one will not work for another.
What is important is the big picture.
In this case, quality of life would be the ultimate big picture. One has to decide for THEMSELVES which they consider to be superior.
68 - Zedd
Dave #64
Seems as if you have a love affair with those social sciences or is you IQ diminishing as you quote those stats.
69 - Zedd
Clavos
Is that you in the "why not you" add up top?
hee hee!! I had to do it. Sorry.
70 - STM
Dave, it's bollocks that the government has made paid overtime illegal in France ... sorry mate, but bollocks is bollocks. There have been some systems in place supported by government funding where companies in some industries have agreed to hire more workers rather than pay overtime, which is where this might come from.
The real issue is, it's illegal to work UNPAID overtime in France.
And just because the French workplace laws don't meet American cultural expectations, it doesn't mean they are bad. French workers would find the American system doesn't meet theirs, either.
71 - STM
Bambanek wrote: "Today France joins the world in adopting more sane economic and governmental policies."
According to you, and viewed from an isolated American political perspective that doesn't relate in any way, shape or form to how the view might be from elsewhere.
Sarkosy's centre-right government will be roughly of the equivalent in its policy making as that of a centrist US Democrat administration.
Which should give everyone some idea of how far to the right American politics are skewed.
72 - Dr Dreadful
Clavos
Is that you in the "why not you" add up top?
Which one do you think is Clavos? I don't see anyone wearing a Aussie 'at...
73 - STM
Come on Doc, you know we inherited the silent H from you Londoners. What's it called there? A titfer?
74 - Dr Dreadful
Titfer. Previously thought to be rhyming slang, the origins of this curious term have recently been traced by etymologists from the University of Dubbo to an ancient Cornish word which, loosely translated, means: "Soft, floppy item of headwear which, when worn by English cricketers, has no beneficial effect whatsoever on performance."
75 - Clavos
Clavos
Is that you in the "why not you" add up top?
Which one do you think is Clavos? I don't see anyone wearing a Aussie 'at...
I haven't seen the ad, but if no one's wearin' an 'at, it ain't me, cobber...