Flag pins are worn to express 'patriotism" but has the political Right hijacked the symbol to mean something else?
There have been two time periods in my life during which I wore an American flag pin on my clothing. The first was back when I was in high school in the early 1970s. In protest of the Vietnam War, I wore an American flag pin upside down, a symbol of distress. I wore it along with other buttons, badges, and pins, including my homemade “I am an effete intellectual, nattering nabob, snob for peace.” (It repeated the unforgettable adjectives for war protesters uttered by that paragon of virtue, Vice President Spiro Agnew). My wearing of the upside down flag pin got me kicked out of typing class during a mid-term exam, which resulted in my only “D” during my high school years (not that there were so many “A's” either.)…
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26 - Dr Dreadful
Zedd, I've become much more patriotic since I moved to the US. I'm very conscious of 'representing' my people, almost as if I'm an ambassador to the Americans.
And yes, I am very proud of the symbols and institutions of my country, however quaint they often seem to outsiders. When I lived in Britain I was indifferent to the Royal Family, for instance - although that may have been down to my irritation at the tabloid media's insistence on turning them into a soap opera. Now I take great pride in them, especially the Queen, who I hold to be one of the greatest and most able monarchs in our nation's long history.
I wonder whether, because you were so young when you emigrated, that's the reason why you don't feel it so acutely. That and it being hard to feel a great deal of affection for a place which regarded you as something less than human just because of the way you looked.
Patriotism in Britain is an odd thing. We're supposed to be a single nation with the English, the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish as equal partners, but whereas the English will generally emphasize their Britishness above all, a Scottish or a Welsh person will almost always express their patriotism primarily in terms of being Scottish or Welsh. (Northern Ireland is a special case and waaaaay too complicated a situation to go into here.)
Non-Celtic patriotism has had a bad rap in recent times because of its hijacking by the extreme right. It's easy to tacitly assume, when you pass by a person wearing a Union Jack t-shirt or a St George's Cross tattoo, that they're off to put the boot in to some 'darky'. But even before that phenomenon it was still oddly muted.
27 - The Obnoxious American
REMF,
Who do you support for president, given that both Democratic contenders have no military experience either?
28 - Zedd
Doc,
Thanks for responding.
I get what you are saying.
What I am hearing sounds different from American patriotism. It's like an Italian-American being proud of being Italian or like me being proud of a certain type of greeting or "ritual act" or escapade of some warrior. Part of it is spurned by nostalgia, a link to history, familial ties and romantic notions. I also get the pride from the recollection of Nelson's triumphs and those of others in your history. I love the cliche depiction of some seafaring or explorer gentleman in a library on a stuffed leather chair recanting the exploits of his travels, however exaggerated they may be (even though I know that my people were on the wrong end of those adventures). It is always riveting and does cause a swell if not for humanities triumphs.
But there is a glossy vague, theatrical, disconnected quality to American patriotism that I cant latch on to. This lapel flag thing is an example. There is a high school popularity contest quality to it. You don't know why you must do it but if you want to be in, you have to or else you will be in the out group. I just don't get it. Perhaps I just don't want to because a lot of flag wavers are often times narrow minded, vacant types or the Arch(es) of the world.
When you were in Britain were you a flag waver??
I love the 4th and sing the songs with glee (in four part harmony) and watch the fire works but I just don't get the rabid hoopla.
29 - Dr Dreadful
When you were in Britain were you a flag waver??
No. I remember us having flags out for the Queen's Silver Jubilee in '77 and for Charles and Di's wedding in '81, but that's about it.
I think a person's nationality should speak for itself, without having to wear it (as it were) on one's sleeve.
30 - REMF
"REMF,
Who do you support for president, given that both Democratic contenders have no military experience either?"
- Obnoxious American
I'm supporting Barack Obama, because he had the judgement to oppose the invasion of Iraq, as did the late Col. David Hackworth.
However, my second choice would be John McCain over Billary, although I strongly disagree with his "100 year war."
I was for McCain in 2000, but unfortunately (draft-dodger) Karl Rove and (deserter) GW Bush dashed those hopes by sliming his (McCain's) patriotism.
31 - bliffle
Flag pins are OK, but That Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore. I have it on good authority.
32 - The Obnoxious American
REMF,
are you serious??!??!?! You'd vote for Obama and he's never served in the military? Don't give me this judgement crap. That's a total copout my friend. Being anti war in general does not equal having good judgement, and even a broken clock is right twice a day.
The inevitable question is should he become president and should he ever decide to go to war, what would you say then? Very surprised and disappointed in you that you'd elect an elitist orthodox liberal over a war hero and patriot, one with real credibility (and someone you used to support). Pretty sad if you ask me.
And in response to your earlier post, I think you're taking my comments too literally. I don't care what symbolism Obama or any pol employs to muster votes. Because thats all it is, lapel pin, shot and a beer, whatever, it's all symbols leveraged for votes. But, I do believe on a personal level, Obama and his ilk, don't much care about the flag, or what it stands for. His policies are evidence. That's what I was talking about.
33 - Barbara Barnett
Barbara...are you thinking what I'm thinking. Maybe a little trade.......pictures of a first class Reagan tatoo for a tape of song cannonizing the gipper?
Arch--I'll do you one better. He has a Website. You can hear the song itself. I myself never go there. It gives me nightmares to think that this is my flesh and blood.
Ruvy, slip of the fingers to misspell Gandhi's name.
It is all about perception, isn't it. taking something trivial like the wearing of a badge (or not) and make it into something. Doesn't matter about anything except the spin.
I guess it becomes a matter of who spins better while wearing the better anti-spin chainmail.
34 - Baronius
"symbolism over substance"
REMF, that's exactly the kind of thinking that I find so repellent. A flag pin is symbolism. It's not symbolism over substance. I'm not going to judge a person as superior because of a lapel pin, but I won't assume that they have no substance just because they wear a symbol.
It's childish. It's embarrassing. Why would you think someone better or worse because of a lapel pin of the American flag?
I should point out that Obnox is wrong - I don't think that Obama's fans are more or less respectful of the flag. Some of them are contemptuous of those who display the flag, though. And I don't think that the lapel pin should be an issue. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes one, but it shouldn't, because it's silly.
There's an old Catholic rule about canonization: you don't declare someone a saint because of his good writings, but you can tell someone isn't a saint by his bad writings. In the same way, I wouldn't vote for a candidate because he wears an American flag, although I'd vote against him if he wears a Russian flag.
35 - Baronius
REMF - Don't talk about hypocrisy. You've spent every moment on these boards talking about how no one has any value unless they've served in the military. Then you say you'd favor Obama over McCain. You demonstrate that you don't really care about military service at all, but use it as a bludgeon.
36 - Baronius
Yeah, Arch, no one remembers my presidential run. This must be how Giuliani feels.
37 - Baritone
Should military service be a prerequisite for being president? If we consider the primary job of the president is overseeing war, then perhaps so. War is pretty much what we do. We don't seem to do it very well, but we do it a lot. Maybe we should change our system and have a commander in chief who's one and only job is waging war, overseeing the military, and another person to run other aspects of the country?
It bothers me not a whit that Obama doesn't purport himself like the average American Legioner bleeding red, white and blue all puffed up spewing the Pledge 24/7.
Arch & Baronius, you seem to equate intellect with elitism. Someone more thoughtful may not be comfortable with all the outward trappings of patriotic behaviour. Does that make them less patriotic? I think not.
B-tone
38 - Zedd
Baritone,
What is patriotism to you?
39 - Clavos
There is nothing wrong with elitism!!
The high minded-words in the Constitution refer to all "men" being created equal; meaning equal under the law, NOT necessarily equal in intelligence, in strength, in agility, in any number of other characteristics.
Some people work harder than others; some are luckier. Some run faster; jump higher, swim faster, dance more gracefully, sing better.
Elitism is natural; it recognizes the immutable fact that we are NOT all equal; elitism that merely recognizes superiority, that doesn't inflict humiliation or feelings of inferiority on others, that simply says "I'm good at what I do and proud of it," is not evil.
40 - REMF
Re #41;
What Zedd sedd.
41 - Barbara Barnett
You missed what REMF what he has been saying. He has been railing at the hypocrisy of those who are all happy pants about war but have not and would not serve. He has explained this a number of times and you keep missing it
You mean like Cheney, George W himself (I do not count what he did as a sorry excuse for service as having actually served.)--other neocons who shout for war as long as they and their progeny don't have to break a fingernail over it? Those guys?
42 - REMF
Clavos,
You and I have had our differences in the past, and no doubt will continue to disagree on certain issues in the future.
But I am in 110 percent agreement with your #44. And regarding the charges of elitism towards Barack Obama, here's a guy who was raised by a single parent, who sometimes relied on food stamps just to feed her children; and went through college on loans and scholarships, until just recently paying off his student loans from the sales of his two books.
Obama is ranked 50th in net worth among all U.S. senators.
It is kinda ironic to hear Rush Limbaugh - whose wealthy lawyer father paid for his (Rush's) medical deferment during 'Nam, and who now himself has more money than God - call Barack an "elitist."
43 - Baritone
Clavos,
I agree with you regarding elitism. But the word is invariably used as a pejorative, usually against liberals.
Zedd,
What does patriotism mean to me? That is a difficult question to answer. As I've noted before, I think nationalism is overrated. It can be just as divisive as religion, ethnism, culture, etc. It implies an "Us vs Them" scenario.
I believe that what the founders of our nation wrought in Philadelphia is perhaps the greatest political document ever written - or cobbled together as the case may be. It laid the foundation for a truly great experiment in government. Is it perfect? No. It has its flaws. That's why it has been ammended and will likely be ammended again as things change.
I guess one of the reasons that I'm not a flag waver, is that all too often they are waved to glorify war. For many, the greatest heights this country has reached have been on the battle field. Far too many people revere war much as Gen. Patton so often did.
Certainly those who have fought and died in defence of this country should be recognized for their bravery and sacrifice. But, it should also be made clear that war is emblematic of failure. We should not take so much pleasure in the fact that we could, if so moved, obliterate pretty much the entire world with our still huge and potent nuclear arsenal. As much as I dislike Iran's Ahmadinejad, I must say I found Hillary's comment regarding our capability to obliterate Iran needlessly offensive. That kind of posturing is bullying. Is that what we are? The world's bully? It would seem so.
There is much else to be said regarding why I don't wave the flag or get all misty when I hear the national anthem (not only owing to the fact that it is a relatively unsingable song.) As a country, the U.S. has accomplished some great things. But we have also made a mess of a great deal as well. If we are to be looked up to as "leaders of the free world," then we must comport ourselves as a nation with far more intelligence than we've seen in recent years.
B-tone
44 - Mark Edward Manning
Barbara, interesting article, a good read.
I am generally regarded as a Right-winger, yet I do not often wear an American flag pin, and didn't even when I lived in the States. Why? Because I felt that I had nothing to prove regarding my patriotism. Anyone simply had to ask me, do you love your country? And I've had answered, "Love it? Buddy, I adore it!"
I have an American flag pin at the ready for occasions in which I may wish to wear it, but again, I don't often feel the need to. I carry my love and patriotic feelings for my nation in my heart.
45 - Ruvy
Barbara,
What you don't realize is that this business about flag pins is more than just symbolism - it is symbolism made manifest.
This is why, for a simple example, South Africa no longer bears a modified version of the Afrikaner flag of Transvaal in its flag, why Israel's flag resembles (and is often used as) a prayer shawl, why India has a flag of saffron, white and green with a Buddhist wheel in the middle. These are all indications of symbolism made manifest.
Those flag patches that are now just an everyday symbol on American cops' uniforms started as a political statement. The kids who diddle with computers but have no idea what a slipstick is do not realize that, but guys like me (and Dan Miller, Baritone, Mark Schannon and a host of others) who did have to learn how to work a slipstick, do. We are like that old Yankee in the Pepperidge Farm commercials - we remember. Even if we need reminding sometimes.
And that, my dear, is the point of symbolism made manifest.
Another point that I raised earlier that has gone ignored, but is touched upon by the symbolism of refusing to wear a flag pin.
There was a point in the late '60's and early '70's when the United States could have degenerated into civil war over Vietnam and a host of other issues - and didn't.
The purpose of such a war would have been to oust the oil and banking establishment that was driving America to ruin then, and has nearly accomplished the task today. But for whatever reasons, Americans turned away from excising the cancer in its soul - and payment for having failed to do so is coming due.
Now.
That is why I wrote earlier that the terrorists opposing the Nixon regime were nowhere near serious enough.
46 - Ruvy
And now it's time to listen to Billy Joel singing "Piano Man" and catch a bus for Jerusalem to do some Sabbath shopping.
Later!
47 - Baronius
Baritone -
"Arch & Baronius, you seem to equate intellect with elitism."
I don't know about Arch, but I didn't mean to imply anything like that. Your statement so confused me that I read back over my comments on this thread (some of which seem to be missing). I don't see any comment that could be misinterpreted to mean what you think I meant. I'm not trying to put a rhetorical spin on anything here; I'm just baffled.
If you don't mind, Baritone, please restate your comment or add some details or something.
48 - Baritone
Ruvy,
What you suggest regarding the opposition to Nixon, the Vietnam War and so forth was not tenable then, nor would similar actions be now. Such action would tear at the very heart of our society, not to mention that it would likely result in a good deal of death and destruction.
You apparently feel that preferable to living under the auspices of a Nixon or Bush. Neither I, nor the great majority of people here would agree with you.
What has been attained here - and copied to one degree or other elsewhere in the world is unprecidented. You have apparently lived long enough under a state of siege that you have come to assume that to be a normal state of affairs. You also apparently believe that the killing that goes on unabated from both sides is somehow cleansing and holy. It's not. It's just killing.
Mankind can achieve higher goals, a greater level of living without death. Yes, we are engaged in killing in Iraq and Afghanistan and many of us don't approve of it - especially that in Iraq. Oppose it yes. But should we destroy everything in order to put a stop to it?
And remember. It's a two way street. Neither the Afghans nor the Iraqis are blameless. Is their willingness to continue to wreak death and destruction upon both themselves and others a higher calling? Or is it just neanderthalically stupid?(Is that a word?)
B-tone
49 - Baritone
Sorry Baronius,
I should not have included you in my statement. It was Arch who refered to the "liberal elite" on this and other threads.
My apologies.
B-tone
50 - The Obnoxious American
"I should point out that Obnox is wrong - I don't think that Obama's fans are more or less respectful of the flag. Some of them are contemptuous of those who display the flag, though. And I don't think that the lapel pin should be an issue. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes one, but it shouldn't, because it's silly."
Again, I think you miss my point here. Just for clarity, here is what I said:
"But, I do believe on a personal level, Obama and his ilk, don't much care about the flag, or what it stands for. "
And I think this is true. Just listen to Obama's speeches. By his measure, America is in the dust bin, capitalism has failed, people are starving on the streets, and the only solution is a giant left wing government to come in and save the day. Hardly an American position, not one that represents what this country is about, but rather what many on the extreme left hope it will one day become. And they are looking to Obama to make it happen.
And THIS is the point. I could care less what pin whomever wears on their lapel. But for Obama to refuse to wear one is a tell. This tell is confirmed once you listen to Obama's speeches and platforms, platforms that reject the themes that this great country was founded upon, namely individualism and freedom, (as opposed to freedom, when it doesn't impact anyone else). Hence my comment about the pin merely being the tip of the iceberg.
51 - Ruvy
B-tone,
You misread a great deal of what I write - though, under certain circumstances, yes, I believe that killing is holy, particularly if it has been commanded directly by G-d. This has nothing to do with living under a state of siege - this has to do with honestly believing the Tana"kh. But that is not what I'm addressing here at all, and is a subject that can be discussed in another forum, one appropriate to it.
LOOKING BACK WITH 20/20 HINDSIGHT, I realize now that America's last real chance to get rid of the oil and banking establishment monkey riding its back and impoverishing its citizens was by getting rid of the Nixon administration in a violent revolution.
Most of us (myself included) looked at the kids killed at Kent State in 1970, and realized that revolution cost more than we were willing to pay, and those few who didn't did not understand the gravity of the task they were undertaking. I certainly didn't. But I was not going to attempt to overthrow the American government. By this time, the "radical" groups in the States had adopted and increasingly strident anti-Israel and ultimately anti-Jewish tone, and I wanted no part of the bastards. And, as I pointed out above, I could see that the attempt would cost more than I was willing to pay.
The Weathermen and other groups like it who did attempt the violent overthrow were pathetic amateurs. What is surprising is that they did not fail more spectacularly than they did.
So, while there was a chance that your/our country would have sunk into war and revolution, it was unlikely that your/our country actually would. But, that was the route to go, and the fact that this path was not taken will have terrible consequences in the not too distant future.
moadím l'simHá
Reuven
52 - The Obnoxious American
I like you ruvy, but doing as you suggest back in the 70s, and shedding the "oil and banking establishment monkey " would have accomplished one thing only, turned this great country into a third world nation. And of course the impacts to Israel would have been massive.
I don't think that industry is ever the "problem" - industry is just made up of people. Consumers of the products of industry are people. Let's be clear that the only way to remove the need for oil or banking is to remove cars and money. It's this sacrifice, and not the one at Kent State, that Americans (and frankly EVERY other nation in the world) are not willing to make.
53 - Baritone
I must admit that I agree with OA here. When it comes down to it, the anti-war, anti-government movement of the 60s and 70s were a lot more style than substance. While I did then and to this day agree with a good deal of what they stood for (but not all,) I never felt that violence was a proper course and it would have been a disaster.
First, they could never have won under about any scenario one could suggest. Two, what would have ensued would likely have been a hard move to the right by the government and military and we would have been left living in at least a quasi-fascist state. Nixon and his crew would have loved that.
As OA suggests, a true "revolution" here could have had the effect of rendering us a far less powerful, and, yes perhaps a third world nation. This would now be a truly strange and chaotic world to live in if that had come to pass.
B-tone
54 - Ruvy
Obnoxious?,
The question mark is there because you are anything but obnoxious; your thinking is terribly conventional.
Oil costs about $4.00/a barrel to pull out of the ground.
Why the hell does it cost twenty five times that much on the open market? A reasonable price for oil is $25 a barrel. That way everybody involved makes a fair profit. But the price is nearly four times that. Where are the profits going? And why is there a credit crunch?
Could it possibly be because American oil companies in Saudi are making obscene profits and sitting on the money?
Banks are supposed to take depositors' money and invest it, returning interest on the investments; sharing a small part of its profits on its investments. But the standard banking procedure is to soak the customer with fees.
You can't even fart in a fucking bank these days without getting some damned fee slapped on you!!!
Obnoxious? - G-d invented goyim because somebody has to pay retail. Use that Jewish noodle you have and figure out why you and I and everybody else is being robbed blind by banks and oil companies! We're not paying retail. The assholes have us all by the balls and are squeezing every last dollar/pound/shekel out of us! It's highway robbery! Or haven't you noticed?
Wait till the price of food starts rising too. Then you can have yourself a goyisher good time losing weight - the old fashioned way - starving. You won't need articles in the Readers' Digest or Cosmo to tell you how....
55 - Ruvy
Now, Baritone, for your benefit, let's go back to the last time the United States was truly prosperous - the spring of 1973.
In the spring of that year a senior economist was ordered by his boss at the World Bank to write a paper explaining why tripling the price of oil would benefit the world's economy. The fellow went to his office and started to crunch numbers. He went home and crunched some more numbers. finally, he realized that there was no way to justify tripling the world's oil prices that would produce a benefit.
Hew went to his boss and told him just that. His boss gave him the "John, we don't pay you to think around here" speech heard from the mouths of so many bosses. "Produce a report by Monday, or else!"
How do I know? Because John, the senior economist at the World Bank in 1973, told me himself. He never did write the report. He went to some friends at the Wall Street Journal or New York Times and told them about the orders he had received. They wrote the appropriate articles, it made a stink for a while, and John had to find a different position.
P.S. The price of oil did triple in 1973. Do your remember how that happened? Do I need to tell you the four lettered "word" everybody was cursing by 1 January, 1974?
Are you paying attention, "obnoxious?"?
56 - REMF
"You mean like Cheney, George W himself (I do not count what he did as a sorry excuse for service as having actually served.)--other neocons who shout for war as long as they and their progeny don't have to break a fingernail over it? Those guys?"
- Barbara Barnett
Yup, them's the ones.
57 - Bjork Gudmundsdottir
"The price of oil did triple in 1973. Do your remember how that happened?"
---
The price of energy quadrupled right after October 17, 1973, the day Richard Nixon sold out the American economy and the American people for his own political benefit. Nixon caved in to political pressure from AIPAC, the Jewish lobby in Washington, in defiance of a clear admonition from Saudi Arabia to stay out of Middle East politics. Nixon should be remembered for this debacle but he is not. Our news media has suppressed this perfidy of Nixon for over three decades. The connivance of Nixon in Watergate is a drop in the bucket compared to what he did to the economy of this country.