I cannot outrun my past...but I can deny it any influence upon my actions and decisions now.
Until I'd been in the Navy about five years, I was a racist.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
I cannot outrun my past...but I can deny it any influence upon my actions and decisions now.
Until I'd been in the Navy about five years, I was a racist.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - roger nowosielski
Sorry, zing. Mistook Christine's comment for yours. Apologies.
27 - roger nowosielski
That's what I meant, Christine, more or less. Exposure will cure many people.
28 - roger nowosielski
Perhaps I should say the Bay Area, Christine.
29 - Clavos
Until a couple decades ago, you'd be absolutely right. However, according to the PBS about 80% of Americans now live in cities or suburbs.
True, Glenn, and the reason why I didn't call them "rural," or "country bumpkins," because in states like Iowa and Mississippi, Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, etc. even in the cities many of the people are bumpkins (i.e. unsophisticated, unpolished, with little formal education, etc.)
30 - Doug Hunter
"Do we really need to go down this road again?"
You're welcome to make your goofy lists and confuse correlation with causation all day long. I can show that by county, rural counties vote republican and urban ones vote democrat.
-Urban areas have lower life expectancy than rural ones
-Urban areas have higher violent and property crimes and higher homicide rates than rural ones
-Urban areas have higher dropout rates and poverty rates. (when adjusted for cost of living)
-Urban areas pay higher taxes and have less freedom and suffer more regulation
Why do you think the suburbs exist? Because sensible people understand the value of living outside the nasty urban areas where you get all your political support. They move as far away as they can and still commute (several hours if need be)
Now, as to your choice of using statistics by state instead of county and coming to your list there are a variety of plausible explanations.
1) The red southern states lost a war which left them far behind out of the economic gates
2) Southern red states are ethnically diverse which comes with all the challenges you are well versed in. Alot of the same things you claim against non-liberals also applies to minorities (low income, poverty, etc) and they vote largely with you
3)Southern red states enjoy much higher rates of immigration from south of the border, they don't bring high net worth and income with thme you know.
4) Southern red states are poorer. Maybe that drives them to embrace policies that allow them to catch up, have higher employment, and close the gap with the blue states. Many red states grow faster when times are good and don't get hit as hard when times are bad. You can't redistribute nothing, you have to create wealth first. They're adopting pro business policies that do just that and are attracting more people and more businesses than blue states.
On a final note, you can say all the things and call us all the names you want but actions speak louder than words.
Internal Migration statistics:
13 of 15 most popular destinations are red states
10 of 15 states with the most desperate to escape populations are blue ones
31 - Doug Hunter
Oh, I forgot point 5 above. With lower cost of living, southern red states can have higher national poverty estimates and lower incomes and still actually live at a simliar standard of living. (with the added bonus of less taxes, less regulation, and more personal and economic freedom)
32 - Dave Nalle
Glenn, I believe you've discovered one of the great basic truths of the universe. Mississippi sucks.
As for the low level of MRMs in the northeast, I think that's a rural vs. urban dynamic.
Dave
33 - Glenn Contrarian
Dave -
LOL! What I always, always tell my friends and family is, "Mississippi - it's a great place to be away from".
34 - Glenn Contrarian
But Dave - my point still applies even with MS because it has the highest percentage of blacks but the lowest percentage of MRM's. I can think of no other reason than racism.
I hate to keep saying it, but there appears to be no other plausible explanation.
35 - Clavos
Further to Doug's #30:
Southern states also got a much later start on population growth and the attendant industrial growth because of climate. Until the use of air conditioning became widespread, most Southern states were small town backwaters. Some, of course, still are.
I moved to Atlanta from Miami in 1971. It was growing rapidly at the time, but was still a very hick place, with little sophistication. By the time I moved back to Florida in 1989, Atlanta had nearly quadrupled in size, had become the New York of the South in terms of culture, arts, and overall sophistication, and was still booming.
36 - Glenn Contrarian
Doug -
I think your misconceptions can be summed up in this one phrase - "Southern red states are poorer. Maybe that drives them to embrace policies that allow them to catch up, have higher employment, and close the gap with the blue states."
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but they've been trying to close the gap for about 144 years.
While life is not 'better' in the big cities, the fact is that those big cities are there and they provide the jobs and the education and the social services for the surrounding suburbs. Rural areas do not have this advantage.
That's why life IS better by nearly every measure in states where much of the population live in suburbs supported by big cities. This is also known as supporting a middle class.
You'll notice I'm not claiming red-state/blue-state in the above statements...but the demographics are clear - the more urbanized (or suburbanized) a state's population, the more likely that state is to be a blue state.
It's simple demographics, Doug.
So while you're at it, why don't you address the same question I gave Dave - why is it that MS has the largest percentage of blacks...but has the lowest percentage of interracial marriages?
37 - Jeanne Browne
Glenn -- As a biracial person, I especially appreciate your article: its spirit, content, courage, honesty and moral concern.
I'm working on post(s) about race, too, and one of my key points (also based on experience) is that not all racism is equal (all puns intended). There is hateful, often violent, racism based on delusions of superiority; then there is relatively benign racial fear based on lack of experience with/exposure to the unknown.
Finally, there is racism like yours: an element of your cultural DNA, a hold-over from your youth and your environment that you're aware of, disapprove of, and are working consciously to dilute in your thoughts/attitudes.
Pres. Obama's election is proof that racial progress has been made, but not that racism is a thing of the past. On the contrary, it is proving to be a catalyst for energizing the crazies, as well as many who, like you, are beginning to recognize, question and reject their own history of racism/racist upbringing.
Please don't reproach yourself. What you're doing is growing, changing -- very difficult things to do and that's to be applauded, no matter if it's 100% successful or not.
And the fact that you're willing to own up to it in public and write about it is more than commendable, it's remarkable -- and beautiful. Thank you for sharing some very important truths and insights. You've restored at least part of my despair about human nature. Bravo!
38 - roger nowosielski
Very good post, Jeannie.
39 - Cindy
Christine,
Since that is the case, you can see why I am one of those who thinks there is less racism. I have only observed racism from the prism of California, since I have lived here since I was three.
Gotta love a flexible thinker. Can't remember when someone here suggested maybe they didn't have all the info they need instead of reacting in defense.
Lastly, I realize we should all examine ourselves in this area, but how do you prove a negative? It seems to me that no matter what (even if you have a resume to prove it) the racism bashing continues. Not good.
Good advice and I agree with you, the arguing doesn't help. A serious suggestion (since you asked a serious question, I think): talk to the targets of racism rather than talking to white people about the targets of racism.
40 - Christine
Cindy, nice hear you again. Your last suggestion is a good one, however, my only contacts are not white. In fact I am "olive" myself who's grandmother's name is Delgado. Throughout my life, many of my relationships have been different races and lately my teenager daughter's friends that she has over the house are all races too...black, latino and her best friend is Chinese. And I have talked to this generation about it. It is quite enlightening!
41 - Glenn Contrarian
Jeanne -
Thank you very much for the kind encouragement. I admit I was a bit nervous - but then caution is certainly advisable when one is considering even a partial public baring of one's soul.
In a way, successfully overcoming racism is like having a successful marriage - such success describes not the destination, but the never-ending journey towards that destination. It takes work, constant work, and while one breathes that work will never be done.
But the truly beautiful thing is that we can have this conversation and not be castigated or persecuted for doing so - and this is just another indication of how America has changed in the past four decades.
In my high school there was a biracial girl - black/white - and she was certainly the prettiest girl in the school. She was accepted among the blacks, but not among the whites. But that was a generation ago, and even in MS the attitudes are changing - slowly, even glacially...but they are irresistibly changing.
42 - roger nowosielski
Hi, Christine,
I think Jeannie Browne's comment (#37) is spot on. There're all kinds of prejudices (and racism is but one of them), as many as there are people. Some it's due to ignorance and lack of exposure, in other cases it's in the person's heart.
One's socio-economic situation can also be a factor. It's comforting to know that there are people who are "below you" on the economic scale, and in such cases the prejudice is not directed against individual persons but against a group.
43 - Christine
Roger: what does this mean?
One's socio-economic situation can also be a factor. It's comforting to know that there are people who are "below you" on the economic scale....
44 - Ruvy
Glenn,
One of the many reasons I wanted to leave the United States was racism - the racism of blacks who hate whites (or Jews) and my own dislike of these blacks. A lot of the black hatred is cultural, but a lot of it is well and truly earned.
But my interest was to get away from it.
Here in Israel we have blacks - the vast majority of whom are Ethipian Jews who have either fled Christian persecution or who are the children of those who fled this persecution. They are a whole different ballgame from American blacks. They do not have 500 years or more of slavery to resent, they come here seeking freedom from Christian persecution from black Christians. So they do not carry within them a culture of hatred of whites in them - yet. While there are plenty of white Jews who dislike them - racism is alive and well in Israel, unfortunately - I am not one of those racists. My own racism, if you will, was a response to the hatred of many blacks in the States, hatred I do not sense from Ethiopian Jews.
Indeed, I find that in Judea and Samaria, there is very little racism - while you find plenty of it in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. The richer the Jews in Israel, the more racist they seem.
45 - zingzing
woah
46 - roger nowosielski
If you're dirt poor, Christine, it's comforting to know that there are people worse off than you - like "the niggers." It makes it easier to live with your own miserable situation, knowing that others are "more stupid" than you. It's the one-upmanship principle, and it operates at all levels of society. If you haven't developed a sense of self-worth, you are going to try to derive it by comparing yourself to some others.
Human nature.
47 - Cindy
Not so sure about that human nature assessment. I rather see it as a problem of social conditioning in a society that competes, and where 'being better' than someone else is valued. And where there is also money to be made through selling self-confidence and self-esteem to people.
But anyway, a story about talking to people, as opposed to only thinking about them:
I was talking to my friend this weekend about an inner city school where uniforms were instituted. His reaction initially was the same as mine. We both had the mindset of privilege. We both thought it was an imposition by the administration on individual freedom.
In a class a couple years ago, a former student of my professor brought his students from The High School for Civil Rights to meet our class. They discussed their feelings about the school uniforms, which had been instituted.
Even the ones who could afford the fashionable clothes described their appreciation for the uniforms, they explained how some classmates who were unable to procure the necessary gear were subjected to severe and ongoing abuse.
It reinforced my idea that I can't know what world someone else sees unless I ask them. And even when I think I'm doing that in my mind (considering how the students felt), unless I actually ask, my own bias will be reflected in what I think.
48 - Christine
Roger, what are you talking about? Most (if not all) of the people I know are NOT poor. In fact they are very well off and have it much better than I, including all races. I grew up in poverty and am not rich by any stretch of the imagination... I am a struggling single parent.
So I am not sure what you are implying but your ignorance of my "socio-economic situation" past and present is what makes people like you come across like jerks. And since you are so eager to attack and demean people, before you know the facts, it is hard to even have a real conversation with you. I hope I am wrong...but this seems like an attack on me....
49 - Doug Hunter
"It's the one-upmanship principle, and it operates at all levels of society."
That would go along way towards explaining Glenn's motivation for constant personal attack rather than debating in the realm of ideas.
50 - zingzing
christine, i'm pretty sure roger wasn't talking about you. where'd you get that idea?
51 - zingzing
doug, you're just as bad. (and you've been debating ideas with him... when you aren't busy just attacking him...)
52 - Doug Hunter
Christine,
There actually is a correlation between being lower socioeconomic status and interracial marriage (at least for whites).
Source:
Princeton Study on Black White intermarriage
It has a lot of interesting and eye opening data. For instance
-White, female, native born, high school dropouts are the most likely demographic to be in an interacial marriage. They do a rudimentary analysis of some theories behind this: status exchange, perception of black masculinity, etc.
-Northern and Southern rates were similiar in the 1950's and only diverged in the 1960's with the south now being 10 years behind i.e. the southern rate of intermarriage in 2000 is roughly equal to the northern rate in 1990.
- A nice reminder not to take a Eurocentric view. From a black perspective, those states with higher black populations means more eligible black mates and those with less means you're more likely to need to go outside your race. Intermarriage rates aren't solely about the attitudes of whites.
53 - Cindy
Some people feel superior because they have more money. The whole wrong side of the tracks thing. The whole thing in school about wearing hand-me-downs or not having the cool fashions. The whole "we're better that the 'white trash' people" thing. The whole, I am an 'A' student and it's that much more meaningful if you (the collective you) are not. The whole keeping up with the Jones' thing.
(My husband's brother and his wife came from meager means in Jersey City. He became a trader for a big firm, made lots of money. Their life became about looking good. Best haircuts and styles. Life about image and acquisition, with little substance. He told us (proudly!?!) about how they saved some shopping bags from the most exclusive stores and brought them to NYC to carry their stuff around in, so people would think that's were they had just shopped. These were adult people with more money than they needed who did this.)
54 - Doug Hunter
"doug, you're just as bad."
Yes, I respond in kind.
55 - Cindy
- A nice reminder not to take a Eurocentric view. From a black perspective, those states with higher black populations means more eligible black mates and those with less means you're more likely to need to go outside your race. Intermarriage rates aren't solely about the attitudes of whites.
I think I missed something in that analysis that seems evident to you Doug. Can you explain it more?
56 - roger nowosielski
I only used the "human nature" thing tongue in cheek, for Christine's benefit. Remember my position on the matter - it's not a convincing form of appeal, so my use was essentially rhetorical.
57 - roger nowosielski
Christine, you're personalizing my comment. There's nothing there to imply that I was talking about YOU. So you really are out of line.
58 - roger nowosielski
For your clarification, Christine, it was a general "you" running throughout the comment. How could you even think that I was addressing you directly?
59 - Christine
OK Roger, I'm sorry! I must be having a bad day, but there were a lot of "YOU's" in that statement. Plus, there is so much bashing here on BC, it is hard to distinguish between a general terms and and a specific attack.
Truce?
60 - zingzing
roger: "How could you even think that I was addressing you directly?"
ridiculously thin skin?
doug: "Yes, I respond in kind."
as far as i can tell, you're the only one attacking the person instead of discussing the ideas/facts/stats. maybe you're speaking of other "discussions" you've had with glenn, but here, you're the aggressor.
that said, are you a reactionary or just a hypocrite?
61 - roger nowosielski
Of course, Christine. I'll be more aware in the future.
62 - roger nowosielski
And I usually abstain from bashing. It serves no purpose if you want to bring a person around. Quite the contrary, it alienates them.
63 - Ruvy
A nice reminder not to take a Eurocentric view.
Try not taking an Amerocentric view for a change. Black Americans have a specific culture that leads them to a certain level of hostility to whites - a hostility that centuries of slavery and persecution fully justifies. That slavery - and the fear that black men would get and sleep with white women - has been at the base of AMERICAN white racism.
That was the whole point of my comment above about Israel. Many white Jews living there are infected with the Eurocentric Christian contempt of blacks "justified" in Genesis, where Ham, the supposed ancestor of all blacks, is cursed as a slave forever. But the black Jews fled persecution of black Christians, and do not have the bitter resentment of whites that even Kenyans (and certainly South African) blacks may have.
64 - Dr Dreadful
zing @ #60:
Doug seems to misidentify criticisms of his ideology as personal attacks.
65 - Doug Hunter
False dichotomy there Zing.
There is very little difference between calling someone an idiot and telling them all liberals are idiots (knowing they are liberals for example). It will get you past the censors but a logical person should be able to see right through it.
Glenn's articles generally revolve around linking personal flaws to politics; trying to point out correlations between racism, lack of education, etc. with non liberal voting. That's not an honest debate of ideas that's attacking the person. Anyone can cherry pick data and make that kind of attack.
If this article was simply about his personal journey of discovery regarding racism and not making an attack on those with opposing political viewpoints then what the hell is it doing in the politics section?
that said, do you lack the intellect to understand what a personal attack is or do you lack the intellect to recognize your own bias?
66 - Dr Dreadful
Ruvy,
I seem to remember a huge debate in Israel at the time of the Falashas' migration as to whether they really were Jewish. What were the objections, and are those objections at the root of some of the ongoing hostility towards them?
67 - Doug Hunter
"Doug seems to misidentify criticisms of his ideology as personal attacks."
Not misidentify, identify. I recognize that most convicted rapists, murderers, and felons vote with Glenn and so do the large majority of those living off of government largesse.
I don't think those facts make valid criticisms of his political positions, I think pointing them out would be a kind of personal attack. Obviously, you do not.
68 - Dr Dreadful
No, Doug, I do not.
I think his ideas are off-beam, but in the current political climate they are at least relevant.
69 - El Bicho
"I recognize that most convicted rapists, murderers, and felons vote with Glenn"
Would love to see a link for those facts.
70 - roger nowosielski
But Doug,
Isn't it possible to point out the correlation between say, racism, lack of education and voting patterns - if such a correction really exists - without personal attack, as an objective kind of fact?
71 - Dr Dreadful
Well, quite aside from the fact that convicted rapists, murderers and felons can't vote at all in most states, that was a rhetorical point Doug was making rather than a factual claim. :-)
72 - roger nowosielski
The point seems to be that when one speaks of correlations, naturally one would like such a correlation to be a significant one. Which is to say, they must think that "poor education," "racism" and "voting patterns" are significant variables (in that tell a significant story). So of course, there's a sort of "theory" lurking in the background, which makes us pick up certain variables and not others. We are being selective.
But does that necessarily qualify as a personal attack?
73 - zingzing
doug: "that said, do you lack the intellect to understand what a personal attack is or do you lack the intellect to recognize your own bias?"
there has to be something personal in a "personal attack," doug. and everyone has their own bias. denying that would be stupid.
if you take every criticism of conservatism as a personal attack, you're a little bit nuts. i call bullshit. out of you and glenn, you're the only one making personal attacks.
"There is very little difference between calling someone an idiot and telling them all liberals are idiots (knowing they are liberals for example)."
well, the difference is one is attacking a person's ideology and the other is attacking the person... what are we talking about here? i'm really trying to figure out your logic here, and i'm pretty sure that's where i'm running into troubles.
74 - zingzing
dd: "Well, quite aside from the fact that convicted rapists, murderers and felons can't vote at all in most states, that was a rhetorical point Doug was making rather than a factual claim."
ha!
75 - Ruvy
I seem to remember a huge debate in Israel at the time of the Falashas' migration as to whether they really were Jewish. What were the objections, and are those objections at the root of some of the ongoing hostility towards them?
First of all, understand that the Ethiopian Christians called Jews "falasha" - stranger - and viewed them that way. That's why I do not use that name at all. In this country, if you want to lose your teeth, call an Ethiopian Jew "kúshi" (nigger) or "falásha". They came here to get away from precisely this trash and do not tolerate it.
To answer your question, there were two sets of objections - one religious, and one in the "how could it be possible?" category, akin to the surprise the Germans felt when they saw Jews fighting and killing them off ("Juden? Waffen?")
The religious argument, I already outlined. Christians, after all, use OUR Hebrew Bible, so they got some of the reasoning from us, and we borrowed it back from them.
The second argument arises from the unbelievability of the idea. How could it be (the Jews with Polish ghetto mentality reasoned) that a 'schvartzer' could be a Jew?" One should never underestimate the ignorance of European Jews when it comes to their own brethren who do not look or cook the same. But the Ethiopian Jews do keep kosher, they circumcize their male children in infancy, they honor the Sabbath, and most important, the Christians around them view them as Jews.
The racism that is practiced against them now is the remnant of both attitudes. And it is wrong in both cases. A larger proportion of the Ethiopian Jews are datí, that is to say, they keep the commandments and honor the Sabbath as do folks like me, than the Jews who are not from Ethiopia.