What worries me is the process, not necessarily the outcome. Is it perhaps some lingering 2000 or 2004 election hangover?
The last few weeks have been torture, both literally and figuratively. Not only are we as a nation on the brink of economic disaster, but we must, in the midst of this financial confusion, also select the leader who will hopefully pull us from the edge and in a direction of promise and prosperity.…
Article comments
176 - zingzing
the thing is, franco, that ruvy's point of view, be it jewish or not, is leading to large amounts of bloodshed, in a conflict that has become on of the central issues in the world today. our own major conflict, "the war on terror," stems from this conflict. if ruvy's conflict ever ends, ours is on the way out as well.
people should learn to live together, but ruvy seems almost consumed by bloodlust. the sad part, i think, is that he seems to be using his jewish beliefs as a backbone for his ridiculous views on that conflict. as if god was a real estate agent or a property lawyer who gives out parcels of land for eternity.
there are other ways in which ruvy's beliefs are bothersome, but they don't affect such a large portion of the earth. he can believe that jews should return to israel, and that all who don't are breaking god's law. that doesn't have any effect upon me. i'm sure the hasidic jews in the neighborhood next to me would disagree...
but if you look at chris' term "humanist spirituality," as just a couple of words and not some major philosophy--i.e. "a spiritual belief that all human life is sacred"--it's a far more inclusive belief than ruvy's "jewish right and responsibility to israel" will ever be.
ruvy has every right to be religious and to believe in his jewish philosophy. but, he is misguided if he thinks that any part of being jewish means "kill or be killed." if that's what he's getting out of it, he's either misread or he's fallen for some horrible trick.
177 - Cindy D
Franco,
You are justifying. If you meant to say all that, you should have said it.
You didn't. I pointed out that you didn't.
178 - Cindy D
RE #174, 175
troll,
I see what you mean. However, I think this one swayed me more.
It's so topical!
179 - Franco
#165 " Ruvy
Thank you for the spirited defense here. I owe you.
You’re welcome Ruvy. Please keep in mind however that I was defending everyone’s right to free speech.
I do this because I see it coming under attack more and more these days with words like “harassment” or “hate speech” and other such negative adjectives.
People are getting sloppy about this and this spoppiness is starting to become abusive to get it to work in their favor as the expences of someone they don't agree with. It is a dangerious pretext to let get stated uncheck in our discouse.
I do not believe Cindy was ever making reference to me at all.
That is correct. Cindy came after me over my post #134 comments I made about Christopher Rose’s posts #131 which was attacking you, which I had felt had the tone of saying your free speech was a detriment to us all. I did not like that tone. So I called it out.
Again, this too was only about supporting the right both you and CR to voice your views. Cindy’s just bent because she liked CR post and wanted the dogs loosed on me.
180 - Franco
#178 " Cindy D
You are justifying. If you meant to say all that, you should have said it.
You didn't. I pointed out that you didn't.
I see, it could be that it just went right over your head in the fist place. OK, if you need that out you can have it.
But now that you fully know what I ment. Do you have any comments?
181 - Ruvy
ruvy's point of view...is leading to large amounts of bloodshed....
FALSE.
Ruvy's view is not being carried out. You need to carry out a policy to get results. I don't give a rat's ass what you think of my views - if they are not carried out, they'll have no results.
Ruvy's views, if carried out, can lead to a lot of bloodshed. But the blood shed would not be that of Ruvy or HIS people - it would be that of those who would murder Ruvy and his people. Ruvy can handle that. That's what he told me when I last spoke with him....
More to the point, since Ruvy wants to live at peace with his neighbors, he is less likely to target them as much as the "humanists" who foment war in this region. These are the Europeans and Americans who interfere in one way or another and foment bloodshed between the Children of Abraham.
These are all the pricks from the "NGO's" who support terror groups, the members of the CIA who train Arab sharpshooters to kill Jews, and the like. In addition, loads of running dog Jews would be jailed, so they could no longer foment Arab violence against Jews. These would be groups like "Peace Now" and their American check-writers overseas. The boys from the Ford Foundation (it all starts with a Ford), who continually foment activity to weaken Israel, would find their funds frozen or seized. All the American support groups (probably the Reform Jewish organizations here, too - sorry Lisa) would have their funds and property seized as well. Their crime would not be disagreeing with the government. Their crime would be conspiring to cause the death of Jews in the Land of Israel.
In other words, zing, RUVY'S targets would be those foreigners from your shores who foment war here. Shits like Jim Baker, Condalleeza Rice, Zbigniew Brzinski, Henry Kissinger and all the running dogs who are their puppets would find themselves persona non grata if they are foreigners, or Israelis jailed for sedition or treason.
Ruvy does not want to endanger good Jewish soldiers in chasing unnecessarily after Arabs. There are other ways to deal with the problem, some more peaceful, some seemingly brutal at first, but which bring peace in the end.
Finally, zing, the entire Land of Israel is the rightful property of the Jewish people. So it would be annexed and those willing to live in peace with us would live in peace, undisturbed and undiscriminated against. The discrimination that has characterized treatment of Arabs in the past, would be a thing of the past. Ruvy knows what it is to be a minority, and has never forgotten.
182 - troll
...yup - you Israelis need your lebensraum for His thousand year Reich
183 - zingzing
glad to hear it, ruvy. but i don't believe you, at least not all of the time. you seem to be actively searching for bloodshed 75% of the time, and quite willing to engage in such activities. and you know as well as i do that when you say, "the blood shed would not be that of Ruvy or HIS people - it would be that of those who would murder Ruvy and his people," it's not only going to be the blood of arabs/interloping westerners that's going to be spilled, it's going to be your own people's as well.
"RUVY'S targets would be those foreigners from your shores who foment war here."
yeah, well, from your own words (and background,) that would be you as well. you know what you've said in the past is not jiving with your comment above. some days, you're gung-ho for war with palestine. some days, you're not... at least in part.
there's a duality to your thought here. but you can't have it both ways. if you continue to spill the blood of those that would spill your own, you're just continuing the same disastrous cycle of violence that has been running around and around for thousands of years.
but i agree with you, in part. america/europe should have no part of this conflict, except in trying to resolve it through diplomacy. if you two nations need to be sat down in the corner and told to talk it out, i think it's acceptable for someone to try and get that done. but giving weapons to you and "training arab sharpshooters" (hard to believe we'd do both at once, but i wouldn't put it past us) is counter-productive at best.
"Finally, zing, the entire Land of Israel is the rightful property of the Jewish people."
it's also the rightful home of many arabs.
"So it would be annexed and those willing to live in peace with us would live in peace, undisturbed and undiscriminated against. The discrimination that has characterized treatment of Arabs in the past, would be a thing of the past. Ruvy knows what it is to be a minority, and has never forgotten."
this is the best thing you've ever written on the subject. i hope you actually do mean it. that, right there, is how this thing is going to be rightfully concluded, if that can ever happen. yet, somehow, zealotry on both sides will probably never allow it. let's hope for the improbable, and wish everyone peace.
184 - Cindy D
Franco,
Yes, this is the extent of my thinking on the subject.
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
185 - Ruvy
Oh, by the way, zing. George Bush and his immediate predecessors and successors would also be persona non grata, along with the Ratzinger, the Brit PM, and a host of other foreign "worthies" like Jimmy Carter and the assorted Clintons clowns.
You, on the other hand, for all you disgusting views, would be welcome here. Tourists bring income.
186 - zingzing
really, ruvy... what's disgusting about my views? that you should just both learn to live in peace? that we're all at fault? that you both have rights?
but i'll go to jerusalem one day. when it's what it should be.
187 - Ruvy
what's disgusting about my views? that you should just both learn to live in peace? that we're all at fault? that you both have rights?
No zing. What is disgusting about them is that you shoot from the hip when you haven't a clue of what you are talking about - but you act as if you know, anyway. Similar to a certian comments editor I'm familiar with....
188 - zingzing
shooting from the hip isn't a view.
and just as an outsider's perspective on u.s. politics is good to hear, i'm sure an outsider's perspective on your conflict, even if it (admittedly) simplifies things, could provide some perspective. if you don't want to hear it, that's your call. but from the outside, the whole thing looks like a couple of children squabbling over something that would be more fun for everyone if you just learned to share.
189 - Ruvy
the whole thing looks like a couple of children squabbling over something that would be more fun for everyone if you just learned to share.
If it were only that simple. One of the big problems we have here is too damned many "outsiders's perspectives" along with their money, interests and agendae.
190 - Franco
#167 -- Lisa Solod Warren
Franco: Ruvy's continually accosting me for not believing as he does is akin to the holy Bible thumpers of my youth following me around telling me that if I don't believe in Jesus I won't go to Heaven. You don't think that is harrassment but free speech. I find it a form of hate speech.
Lisa, can you say, "thanks but no thanks", and walk away?
Or is having to do that in life at times a hassle for you, and you don't like having this hassle.
Additionally, I sight your use of the words "following me around" and I assert that they are a gross misrepresentation.
I live in the same US that you do, and while Christians have come up to me, or come to my door, I can quickly turn them away if I choose. I have never once had a Christian follow me around after I said no thanks. In fact I have never had any of the faiths follow me around after I said no thanks.
When you talk about someone 'following you around" you are taking about someone 'stalking" you, and that is harassment. So if you really had some Christian in your life that 'stalked' you after you said (thanks but no thanks I choose not to dissucssit)then your right, you were harassed and they were dead wrong for doing it. But I assert that this is the extreem exception and not the rule.
And as far as Ruvy is concened here on BC, what I have seen you evidence is your continued engagement with him in disscussion/debate, and those actions by you are the exact oppisite of saying, thanks Ruvy, but no thanks and I choose not to discuss it anymore.
If you backed off and Ruvy "stalks you" then that would be harrasemnt and you would find me coming to your defence. But as long as you want to contiue to disscuss/debate with him, you, and you only, keep the ball rolling.
Can you hold you tong and walk away? If so, watch what you call harrasment quickly disaper.
Now after going aound on this free speech issue and making arguments in support of it, you have not voices any support for it, in fact you continue to attack it.
And you have escalated your attack on free speech by introduing and adding the words "hate speech"
So in have the following question about your new word attack on free speech.
Are you saying that it is "hate speech" for a Christian to say to anyone in a discussion/debate with them, that if they tell you that if you don't believe in Jesus you won't go to Heaven. And are you saying that that is hate speech? And it so, do you think is should be against the law for them to say it?
Please clarify this for me and feel free to set your own perimeters as when this would quality as being hate speech and thus if you think it should be against the law in your view.
191 - Franco
#177 " zingzing
Everything you assert against Ruvy and his Jewish faith can be “equally” asserted against the Arab’s and their Muslim faith over this issue of Israel.
And since the Arab’s control 99.99% of the Middle East, and Jews only controls 00.01% of the Middle East, I ask you to explain way you side against Ruvy on his insistence for defending this 00.01% of the Middle East land and then justify you position under the light of "humanist spirituality,"
192 - Franco
zingzing,
I too would love to see both Arab and Jew bury the hatchet and find peace together. But what ever gave you the idea that the Arab's want peace with the Jews.
Better question, what would the Jews need to do to have peace with the Arabs?
193 - zingzing
franco #193--
no one has said either side wants peace. but someone has to. and someone has to go for it first. whoever does is the better person, but whoever agrees to that peace is a better person as well.
all the jews and the arabs need to do is to learn to respect each other and their equal rights to that land. nothing anywhere says with any authority says that it belongs to either, so it belongs to both. creating a jewish state of israel was one of the biggest mistakes of the 20th century, looking at it in hindsight.
that's not to say that the jewish state of israel should be destroyed in any matter, physically or politically... it can't be, because it's already there.
but in order to have peace, both the jews and the arabs need to learn to live together in peace. it's not hard. it's a lot easier than war. a whole lot easier.
194 - Ruvy
zing, Franco, I hate to break this to y'all and interrupt the guitars playing "Kumbaya".
The problems in Israel are not exactly the Arabs. They are the background noise (a firebomb explodes in the background) against which the real problems militate against us. This came in my inbox today.
Barry Chamish: During the Hebron withdrawal debate of '96, Peres said of Netanyahu's Refuser Science Minister, Benny Begin [MenaHem Begin's son], IN THE KNESSET, "I'm sick of you and your shitty family." Yehuda [the son] was dead two months later of "Vertigo."
Meir: What?????? That he too would be a marked man?
G-D FORBID! He should live in HEALTH until 120 yrs.........
Barry Chamish: Benny [Begin] quit politics after his son Yehuda was murdered.
Keep a watch on his back.
We have a murderer for a State President. He arranged for the death of YitzHak Rabin because Rabin was planning to back out of the Olso Accords (and fuck up a lot of Peres' business arrangements), he arranged for the murder of ReHavam Ze'evi because he was going to expose Peres' role in Rabin's murder. There is a former congressman dead also, as well as a former commander in the army.
This country is run by a criminal mafia, and the chief of that mafia is the State President, Shimon Peres. Now, gentlemen, go back and read comment #182 one more time and consider what I've been talking about about foreign bought politicians here. Peres is not an American flunky but a European one.
195 - Ruvy
I'm gonna do something unheard of - I'm going stick to the concept of the article - sort of. This came in on e-mail a bit ago from South Florida:
I have no idea what the heck is going on, but the traffic is all backed up - and police are in the streets. I have to finish my shopping for my Father, and came in to get the rest of his groceries that is in my house that I bought this morning for him.
I know that tomorrow the schools here will not be in session, that they will be polling places only. Looks like there is a lot of security over here now getting in place.
Is anyone else seeing this in their hometown?
Talk to you all later, I have to go.
-- Joni
196 - zingzing
franco: "Everything you assert against Ruvy and his Jewish faith can be "equally" asserted against the Arab's and their Muslim faith over this issue of Israel. "
true. i never said any different. they're both foolish.
"And since the Arab's control 99.99% of the Middle East, and Jews only controls 00.01% of the Middle East, I ask you to explain way you side against Ruvy on his insistence for defending this 00.01% of the Middle East land and then justify you position under the light of "humanist spirituality," "
i'm not siding WITH the arabs AGAINST ruvy/the jews. i'm just saying that it's this mentality of kill or be killed that continues this entire farce. i've always maintained that both sides are wrong.
197 - Lisa Solod Warren
Franco, You have no idea how it is to live as Jew in the South in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Yes, I was followed and yes terrible things were said more times than you could imagine. Most people who live in the U.S. have a hard time believing this, as do many white people have a hard time believing racism exists. That is one of the problems with the U.S. People who have never been subjected to it can't really imagine it.
And I beg to differ. Every post Ruvy has made to me has included some comment about my not making aliyah and not believing as he does, therefore not being a "good Jew," and there for, in my opinion, harrassing. Sure, I could leave it and ignore it. But it's out there in every post where he responds to whatever I write, to whatever I say, even if it has nothing to do with him or the subject matter at hand. It is also often included in his responses to others.
Whenever he posts on any subject he nearly always makes sure to make mention of the fact that all Jews who do not live as he does are not living by Biblical code.
I still don't understand why I must defend myself to you, his surrogate. So I shall leave it here. And from now on, now that my position is well known, I shall let Ruvy throw his attacks at me, and thus by extension at any Jew who does not live or practice as he does.
Free speech? I suppose you are right. Ugly, harrassing, overbearing, unpleasant, too, and for me, it brings up memories I would rather not have to think about again. Especially unpleasant coming from a member of my own race who seems to have gone to a country of refuge and become a rabid and very angry and unpleasant person bent on trying to convert (which is one thing Jews DON'T do) other members of our faith. I concede that perhaps, Franco, it does not qualify as hate speech, and there are those, in fact, who argue that hate speech does not even exist. But it IS hateful.
But, on this list, Ruvy might do well to realize he is not going to convert me or anyone else and he might be better off just writing his columns as he wishes and stop proseltyzing like an old-fashioned hellfire and brimstone preacher when the occasion never warrants it, even though to him the occasion ALWAYS warrants it.
198 - Ruvy
Franco,
Just a few thoughts for you to chew on.
Lisa is right about how hard it was to live as a Jew of any variety in the South in the decades of the '50s, '60s, and '70s. By comparison, Jews in New York, New Jersey or Connecticut had it real easy. But in the middle of the last (Christian) century until the late '60's even Jews in New York kept a low profile. That only changed with the Six Day War and the founding of the Jewish Defense League.
I do not envy her - or any Jew - who had to live in the South, or even among the Jew-haters in upstate New York, or southern New Jersey.
If you are not reallly secure about who and what you are, the kind of crap Jews had to take from Christians left real psychic scarring.
I was raised as a conservative Jew in the '50s and '60's. In those days, conservative Jews were almost the same as the "orthodox" Torah-observant Jews except that they allowed women to sit with men in synagogue, were not so pushy on sexual purity laws, and allowed men and women to dance together.
I got a very thin Jewish education, so it wasn't hard for atheism to claim me as a youth.
The reform Jews, which is what Lisa is, were always different. They had started out by bannning Hebrew from the services, substituting the language of the country, stating that all of the Torah was a mere option, and pretty much doing away with the Sabbath and keeping kosher as institutions. The women would still light candles on Friday nights, but the way the reform Jews looked at it, the idea was merely to make the Sabbath different from the rest of the week.
To put it bluntly the reform "rabbis" Christianized the religion to make services more like church services, adopting titles like "reverend", etc.
Over the years, the conservative Jews became more and more like the reform in how they did things. They still use Hebrew more than the reform Jews do (and reform Jewsw use more Hebrew thqn they used to), but "conservative Judaism" has become as thinly diluted a "faith" as "reform" is. The problem with these people is not that they are bad people, but that they have chosen ignorance of Jewish law, custom and tradition, opting instead for the politically liberal "flavor of the week" as what mattered to them.
To put it bluntly, they do not know Torah, they do not know Tana"kh, they do not know Talmud, nor Gemara nor even Kabbala. And they do not care if they do not! For a while, Israel was the "flavor of the week" so they were interested in Israel. But after falling for the bullshit of the "Palestinians" they now tend to favor them instead of Jews, and intervene in politics here and in America to help the Arabs. You can find the Jews of Americans for Peace Now for example, in the reform "temples". You will find very very few Torah observant Jews in such traitorous organizations.
It goes without saying that the vast majority of these Jews have little or no interest in moving to Israel. Let's leave Lisa aside for the moment. She has painful personal issues to deal with that would prevent her from even considering leaving the States.
For the vast majority of Jews moving from the States to Israel, the move means a huge drop in their standard of living. Nobody likes to be poorer. And the reform and conservative Jews have done well, and especially do not feel any reason to sacrifice their prosperity to live in a country like this one. Many Torah-observant Jews are no different, and make every excuse they can dig up not to obey the precept to return home. But, as it stands now, the vast majority of Jews who move here are Torah-observant Jews, committed to keeping the Sabbath, kashrut and the commandments - all 613 of them. I was not one of these people when we moved here, but became so turned off by the local version of conservative Judaism that we bit by bit became Torah-observant.
Now, Franco, go back over the back and forth between Lisa and me. Knowing what I know now about her, I would never presume to say she should consider moving away from her ailing parents, a point I made twice to her (and now express for a third time). But she is upset, so does not wish to consider this.
I have no interest in "converting" the young lady - a term of politeness here. She has lived a good part of her life as what she is and is unlikely to change - or want to change, let's put it that way. Events may change her point of view, but I certainly cannot. Not only that, she is unwilling to even consider adding to her stock of Jewish knowledge from mine.
So, she writes about Armaggedon - like a Christian might - instead of the End of Days or the War of Gog and Magog. She compares me to a "bible thumping fundamentalist", as though I were a Christian. Like kids in a reform temple asking the BK manager for cheeseburgers, her comments are obscene. This does not take away from the decency she shows as a loving daughter to her parents, nor from the high level of understanding of righteousness her father showed as a factory owner. But her comments are still obscene. I understand that she is upset and pained over the condition of her parents. But that does not make me the utterer of hate speech.
I have told the truth. And I have said all I care to say on the matter.
199 - Lisa Solod Warren
Ruvy, One quick note. Although there is no place for that on this site, I wish you to know that I am far more learned about Judiasm than you know or give me credit for; again, that I do not choose to agree with you or learn FROM you or worship as you do does not mean I am ignorant or an unbeliever. You make illogiical assumptions and it is that have caused me to equate you with those who would try and "convert" me to their way of thinking. One thing I have always appreciated about being a Jew is the ability to read, question, discuss and debate. Many very observant and learned scholars feel the Torah is a fluid document. Personally, I agree. My way may not be yours and you may not approve. But I have also told my truth.
PS. At six and eight years old being "secure" in who one is is not an option. You are extremely self-righteous in your new found faith, aren't you? That certainly isn't very Biblical of you. Neither is calling someone obscene because they order a cheeseburger. It's hyperbole and that kind of exaggeration makes it impossible to learn from you. Which is why I take instruction from my rabbi and from other calmer and more rational learned people.
200 - Franco
#197 -- Lisa Solod Warren
Lisa,
I have to conclude that what you experienced when you were young was in fact verbal harassment. I agree with you that that is stepping over the line of free speech rights.
In light of that fact, I thank your for showing your support for free speech and I solute you for the courage to do it.
As I noted before, you will find me every bit you're surrogate as over your free speech rights. Not for what you say, but for your right to say it. Which was always my position for Ruvy, and never once did I do it to support what he believes. I hope you understand that.
I am not some free speech cop, I just believe we, as citizens should not let cultural expressions develop against free speech without being challenged. These freedoms are that important to all of us, and that includes all of us.
Again, thank you for replying with such a positive post in favor of it.
201 - Franco
#198 " Ruvy
Thank you for all your efforts and insights into all of what you presented. It has helped me understand you better on this matter, and will do the same when we are on other subjects as well.
Speaking of other subjects. In your post #194 you assert.....
This country is run by a criminal mafia, and the chief of that mafia is the State President, Shimon Peres. He arranged for the death of YitzHak Rabin because Rabin was planning to back out of the Olso Accords (and fuck up a lot of Peres' business arrangements)
I have the following questions.
1) Are you saying that Peres’s motives are exclusively for money and wealth, and have nothing to do with making a peace settelment?
2) Dose that apply to all those in power it Israel in favor of the Olso Accords?
202 - zingzing
slurping sound
203 - Franco
zingzing, have a little faith, don't pre-quess me so quickly.
You yourself said in post #193 that no one on either side seems to want peace.
I am only seeking Ruvy's persectives (as on side in this) and finding about what he thinks is that keeps side from peace which he aluded to in his posts to both of us. Can you go along?
204 - zingzing
hrm. your comment wasn't up between the time i loaded and pressed *click*. so your comment... anyway, i went out and got drunk after and here i am now, seeing what... meh. that wasn't in reply to you.
205 - Ruvy
Lisa,
Just a verty brief comment for you - please go, if you have the time, to Santa Claus and the Madness of Christmas. There is probably nothing special in the article itself to impress you, but go down to the comments section and follow the back and forth between Elvira Black and me.
I'm not interested in telling you what to do or not to do, or what to believe or not to believe, but you will understand from that back and forth what I do think as opposed to what you may feel I think.
the Torah is a fluid document - the understatement of the year. The Torah is more than just a very fluid document, it is a key that unlocks many of the mysteries that occurred here in ancient times. Used properly, one can trace many key events and interpret them rather clearly. But I'll not burden you with those thoughts here. This is not the appropriate forum for that discussion, as you point out.
In the meantime, friends of mine from South Florida tell of interesting events occurring there; see comment #195 supra.
206 - Ruvy
Franco,
1) Are you saying that Peres's motives are exclusively for money and wealth, and have nothing to do with making a peace settlement?
2) Does that apply to all those in power in Israel in favor of the Olso Accords?
Just as I directed Lisa to a previous article I wrote here, I will direct you as well. This is a series called "In the Shadow of the Six Day War". The specific article you need to go to is Part III. This part covers the beginning og the Oslo Accords. The specific part you need to go to, after reading the article, is the first comment in the thread, which covers and interview the editors here decided to delete from the article.
The short answer is that for the Labor politicians in Israel in particular, the PLO, and its pathetic construct, "the Palestinian Authority", was a cash cow. When Hamas won power, the connections that made money for these Labor politicians all disappeared. It might interest you to know that the personal attorney for Ariel Sharon, Dov Veisglas, was also the attorney for the firm handling business for Yassir Arafat, y"sh.
207 - Cannonshop
#196 When people insist on shooting at you, and teach their children to be guided bombs against you, it's pretty clear-they want to kill you. If you don't kill them, they will kill you.
Kill-or-be-killed isn't a farce or false impression when people are trying to kill you. It's a fact.
208 - Ruvy
Cannonshop,
You are a great guy to have at one's back, but please read the article I sent Frnaco to above. Better yet, read the whole damned series.
If only I could be proud of the police uniform I wear as a volunteer. If only I could feel the full faith in the young men who wear the uniform of the only Jewish Army on the face of the earth. If only....
Yehuda Begin was murdered at the orders of Peres' hit squad. The son of a lawyer I know was murdered the same way. They strike at the children, so as to demoralize the parents. ShalHevet Pass was murdered in her father's arms by an CIA-trained Arab sniper. But it was Pass who was ultimately harrassed and imprisoned illegally by the Shaba"k. The evil that crouches at Government Hill is palpable (I used to be a "guard" for the Prime Minister's Office, Israel's equivalent of the Executive Office Building, when Cabinet meetings took place).
Imagine if the secret police murdered the children of a publisher who had fallen out of favor of the government. That is what happens in this country.
209 - Cannonshop
It sounds an awful lot like there needs to be a housecleaning in your country, Ruvy. I'm a bit concerned that what's going on where you are, may soon be going on here (if it isn't already).
I'm not up to speed on the religious side of your discussion with Lisa-I'm not a Jew, nor Christian, nor any of the associated faiths, and the scholarship is rather confusing for me.
It may be time for those who are NOT of that sort, to take matters into their own hands. If Peres is fielding death-squads, then those squads have families, they have a place they feel safe, and they have names and identities. If he holds power through violence, then violent deaths should be revisited upon his followers. It's not Christian, it's probably not Jewish, but Vengeance and Justice are moral imperatives, if Justice can not be achieved, then Vengeance is a morally acceptable substitute when blood money (compensation for the wrongfully slain) is not offered.
210 - Ruvy
If....
Hmmm.....
The hills in Samaria are awfully beautiful, this afternoon, Cannonshop.... ;o))
211 - Ruvy
Following on comment #195 supra....
A friend of mine called not too long ago commenting that "this is the big day". A brother of his is an Obama volunteer in the States and was telling him about the 35 page on-line booklet of instructions that he had to attempt to absorb. My friend's brother marvelled at the immensity of the Obama organization.
Looks like you guys are getting the best president Arab money can buy. It's not merely the fact that Obama is swimming in Arab money. He is a smart man, extremely so, and he has either designed or ordered designed and thought of details that many candidates just do not think of.
If this is a foretaste of the Obama sdministrative style, you are all in for a replay of the Carter administration. He too, was a very intelliogent micro-manager. Of course, micro-managing has its faults, too. The Carter administration was proof of this.
212 - bliffle
Dan(Miller) reveals the source of his confusion:
"You state that Senator Obama "has a fairly clear vision of what he wants to accomplish as president." I wish that I had a fairly clear vision of what he wants to accomplish. With the Ayers, Dohrn, Wright, et al stuff rattling around with no adequate response, I don't have such a vision of what he wants to accomplish."
Your mistake is to assume that Ayers, Dohrn, etc., have a strong influence over the Obama vision. Did you ever consider that they are simply irrelevant? Or have you been distracted by the convenient hatred offered by Ayers, Dohrn, etc.?
Partisans shouldn't become convinced by their own propaganda: it's intended for the simpleminded.