What worries me is the process, not necessarily the outcome. Is it perhaps some lingering 2000 or 2004 election hangover?
The last few weeks have been torture, both literally and figuratively. Not only are we as a nation on the brink of economic disaster, but we must, in the midst of this financial confusion, also select the leader who will hopefully pull us from the edge and in a direction of promise and prosperity.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Clavos
Here's an interesting example of how deeply the prejudice runs in liberal circles, when even a reasonable, moderate man, in an attempted apologia for the man, makes a statement like this:
"He seems to be struggling to retain some degree of personal honor - such as with his stiff-backed rebuttal of the supporter who claimed that Obama was an Arab. (emphasis added)
Not "gracious," not "non-partisan." "Stiff-backed."
77 - Cindy D
I find John McCain extremely confusing. He is a maverick who stood against his party, next he is defending Bush, next he is nothing like Bush, next he sounds exactly like the party line AND Bush (yet claims he is a maverick and ISN'T Bush.)
I don't understand how anyone can claim they know what he would do as president besides his Bush II "and then some" tax policy.
78 - Jet
I've resolved to vote AGAINST any candidate that goes relentlessly negative.
79 - Baronius
Cindy, I find Barack Obama extremely confusing. He says that he is a uniter, above the partisan fray, but he never stands against his party, and represents something new, but is indistinguishable from his running mate who is the embodiment of his party's establishment...
80 - Dr Dreadful
Clav,
McCain was in the Navy for 20 years. His rebuttal of the woman was done in exactly the respectful, dignified way you would expect from a military man. I meant 'stiff-backed' in that sense.
81 - Dan(Miller)
Baritone,
Do you really think so? I am far less sanguine. Few people want "their fifteen minutes," particularly since their personal lives are likely to be investigated and demonized in the media for far longer than fifteen minutes. Look at the personal attacks on Governor Palin and her family as soon as she became the Republican Party Vice Presidential nominee. It was suggested that she was not the mother of her Downs Syndrome child, and that her husband had had an incestuous relationship with her daughter, among other things. "Joe the Plumber" has been investigated, perhaps improperly, and attempting to make him a laughingstock has become a preoccupation of some. If I had concrete information about Senator Obama's associations, and I don't, I don't know that I would have the guts to subject myself, and my family, to this sort of thing.Re Comment #63: At this stage in the game, I don't think that there is a need to detail the various speculations about Senator Obama's associations with Professor Ayers, Ms. Dohrn, the Reverend Mr. Wright, ACORN, et al. The speculation is out there, and if you don't know about it I would suggest that you look it up. We do know that Senator Obama has had some associations with them, but we don't know the extent of those associations and thus far his response has been, to me at least, patently inadequate and uninformative. Professor Ayers, Ms. Dohrn and the Reverend Wright, and others who seem to have had long term associations with Senator Obama, have been conspicuously silent as well.
Senator Obama does not owe me an explanation; I have already voted, and it was not for him. Had he dealt with these matters differently, I might have voted differently; or I might not have. A lot would have depended on the nature and fullness of his response. I do think that he owes those who are still trying to decide for whom to vote a far more enlightening response than has thus far been provided.
You argue,
You contend, I agree that he has been reticent, but otherwise disagree. Senator Obama has thrust himself onto the public stage, and may become our next President. Those who are being asked to vote for him are entitled to know the reasons for his reticence. Ditto the bases of his "sense of personal loyalty or ethics." In particular, they deserve to know whether and if so how his sense of loyalty and ethics toward Professor Ayers, Ms. Dohrn, the Revered Mr. Wright, et al are likely to impact on his presidency. Until he makes at least a modest effort to explain these things, I shall continue to question whether his loyalty and ethics are misdirected.
Senator McCain's relationship to the Keating Five has been quite will ventilated. I would only ask that Senator Obama's associations referenced above be equally well ventilated, and soon. As to whether Senator MaCain might be a "Manchurian Candidate," I suppose it is possible. It seems rather unlikely and as far as I am aware, there is nothing in his post-Vietnam history to suggest that he is. Whatever his flaws may be, and there some, I don't think that is one of them. Nor do I know of anything that he or anyone else could say which would rebut the suggestion that he is.
You state that Senator Obama "has a fairly clear vision of what he wants to accomplish as president." I wish that I had a fairly clear vision of what he wants to accomplish. With the Ayers, Dohrn, Wright, et al stuff rattling around with no adequate response, I don't have such a vision of what he wants to accomplish. Nor, I suspect, do many undecided voters.
In your Comment # 69, you argue that The entire tenor of his [Senator McCain's] campaign has been spiteful and aggressive in its efforts toward character assassination. I don't think so. Suggesting that Senator Obama is a socialist, whatever that means, or that he has unexplained and apparently unfortunate association with people who find the United States disgusting, does not strike me as character assassination. These seem to me to be things to which Senator Obama should respond. Promptly and before it is too late.
Dan(Miller)
82 - Lisa Solod Warren
You know what, Dan? I find McCain's association with Bush, Keating, Gramm and their ilk, not to mention his extremely ill-advised choice of Pain as veep, so troubling, that even if I agreed with him on every one of his policies (some of which I don't even know what they are, since he speaks more in attacks than on issues) I would NOT vote for him. McCain's associations and choices are so very troubling that I could never ever vote for him. I also find his connection with the Christian right, nay, his pandering to them, so completely distasteful, that I could never vote for him on that connection alone.
83 - Cindy D
Baronius,
What does it matter that you painted the walls before you burned down the house?
Actually, I don't credit him with even painting the walls. But, I don't limit the complete failure to Bush's presidency. I also see it as the complete failure of the Republican party and their mentality. Beyond that, I see it also as the complete failure of capitalism and this is at least the 2nd time we have seen that on such a wide scale.
84 - Clavos
Doc #80:
Oh?
Well... that's different.
Never mind.*
*Copyright Emily Latella, aka Gilda Radner, RIP
85 - Baritone
Dan,
This entire affair is a straman argument. It is no more than a manner in which to steer the attention away from real issues. McCain's campaign HAS focussed almost entirely upon character assassination. They have gone out of their way to suggest that Obama is in league with terrorists, that he is unpatriotic, that he is a muslim and that he isn't even an American.
You believe that McCain is an honorable man. I think he's an asshole. As Lisa notes, McCain's campaigns spend much more time with negative attacks than on anything to do with his proposals.
Obviously, you haven't spent any significant time studying Obama's proposals. Even in his stump speeches, he lays things out reasonably well. McCain doesn't even try.
Obama's interview with Rachel Maddow last evening was VERY revealing with respect to his vision. To her credit, Maddow asked a number of questions that precluded the possibility of boiler plate answers, and Obama obliged by making painstaking and in-depth answers.
The issue of Obama's associations have been about the only hook McCain and Palin have utilized, and apparently to little effect. It is my view that most people don't care. Should Obama win, that view will be borne out.
Oh, and Joe the Plumber. What a crock. Give me a break. He jumped on is fifteen minutes with both feet. He's loving it. Never mind that he is essentially a fraud.
Apparently, you have never watched shows like Jerry Springer, Judge Judy or even Dr. Phil. Large numbers of people fall all over themselves regardless of the consequences - regardless of the embarrassment, sometimes even the possibility of landing in jail - for the opportunity to get themselves on the tube and/or get their names in the news. You are just wrong about this. I guarantee that if anything was out there, we'd know about it by now.
B
86 - Baritone
Clav,
What? I did as I was told. I went to the LA Times site. There are dozens of articles referencing Ayers. I read a few - the most recent plus a couple of older ones. So, what was I supposed to find?
B
87 - Baritone
BTW, if it should happen that President McCain winds up choking, say on his own bile, I hope you all enjoy life under President Barbie.
B
88 - Clavos
My point, exactly, B-tone. you WON'T find what they are refusing to release to the public: a video in their possession of a meeting between, among others, Obama and Khalid Rashidi, in which Obama lavished praise on Rashidi, and his (Obama's) attendance at which casts doubts on his announced pro-Israel stance.
Whaddya wanna bet the Times will decide on Nov 5 that they can release it after all?
89 - Clavos
Forgot this link in #88.
90 - zingzing
you know, they probably aren't releasing it because the rumor of its existence is better than what's truly on the tape.
in this day and age, the times certainly isn't the only organization with that tape. many, many people have it, and for some reason aren't releasing it.
it doesn't matter that the times isn't releasing it. its existence is known. (although unconfirmed by us actually seeing it...) which is worse? not knowing what's on that tape, or probably what is just some mild politicking? from what i can gather, obama sees both sides of the palestinian/israeli conflict... and while he supports the israeli state, he also understands the palestinian cause.
the point is that the rumors of the tape do much more damage than the actual tape would.
91 - zingzing
anyway, what's the point in picking a side in that fight? they're (israel and palestine) both right in their own way, and they're both deadly wrong in a lot of other ways. stupidity rages on both sides. both have a right to the land. but they just don't want to live together. it's fucking dumb.
92 - Baritone
Has it escaped your notice that McCain headed up the International Republican Institute that gave nearly half a million dollars to a group sponsored by Rashidi? Is it not relevant that McCain gave a keynote address to an ACORN convention in 2006?
Oh, no, that's right. I keep forgetting. McCain's a hero. He can do this stuff. Obama's an arab and a muslim and a terrorist. He can't have these kind of associations.
Do you suppose the video will show Obama and Rashidi doing each other under the table? Just wondering.
B
93 - Clavos
Has it escaped your notice that McCain headed up the International Republican Institute that gave nearly half a million dollars to a group sponsored by Rashidi? Is it not relevant that McCain gave a keynote address to an ACORN convention in 2006?
Excellent point, B-tone. Two things about McCain which put into question his politics, I agree.
I'm especially disturbed that he would support ACORN, given their questionable reputation.
94 - Dr Dreadful
I can't help but notice that if McCain wishes to spring the dreaded October Surprise, he's only got another seven hours (PDT) in which to do so.
(Well, to be fair, let's say nine if the Surprise is in Hawaii. I'm sure there are hordes of lawyers beating frantically with their subpoenas on the doors of the Office of Public Records in Honolulu as we speak.)
95 - REMF/MCH
Nice work as usual, Dawn.
I agree whole-heartedly and have already cast my vote for Barack.
Now if we could just convince EO to switch to the good side .... (grin)
96 - bliffle
Clavos,
Did you publish a denunciation of McCain that was as livid as your denunciation of Obama, after thei:
#93 " Clavos
Has it escaped your notice that McCain headed up the International Republican Institute that gave nearly half a million dollars to a group sponsored by Rashidi? Is it not relevant that McCain gave a keynote address to an ACORN convention in 2006?
Excellent point, B-tone. Two things about McCain which put into question his politics, I agree.
I'm especially disturbed that he would support ACORN, given their questionable reputation.
97 - Lisa Solod Warren
Yes, Clav.... been wondering about this myself, since the day before yesterday when I first heard about the Rashidi-McCain link and yesterday when it all over the news.... and the HUGE amount of money and support McCain gave to him.....
and how Rashidi is actually a very moderate Palestinian.
Oh, and the ACORN association. Too bad you and Dave didn't do your research before you did SO much yelling and screaming for SO long about Obama and HIS associations.
Oh, and Dan.... any chance YOU regreat YOUR vote.
Probably note. TOO DUG IN all of you.
Sigh..... See what hate and vitriol and stupid ass association bullcrap does? Just blurs what is really meaningful.
98 - Clavos
How's this, bliffle?
McCain is unAmerican and a traitor for contributing half a million dollars to a muslim terrorist by the name of rashidi.
McCain should also be censured for supporting the subversive ACORN organization.
Please people, don't vote for McCain.
99 - Baritone
In the most recent issue of the New Yorker Hendrik Hertzberg notes that during the 2000 campaign a McCain appearance on MSNBC's "Hardball," a young woman asked McCain "why her father, a doctor, should be "penalized" by being "in a huge tax bracket." McCain replied that "wealthy people can afford more" and that "the very wealthy, because they can afford tax lawyers and all kinds of loopholes, really don't pay nearly as much as you think they do."
The exchange continued:
YOUNG WOMAN: Are we getting closer and closer to, like, socialism and stuff?...
MCCAIN: Here's what I really believe: That when you reach a certain level of comfort, there's nothing wrong with paying somewhat more."
And Palin? Hertzberg goes on: "A few weeks before she was nominated for Vice-President, she told a visiting journalist--Philip Gourevitch, of this magazine--that "we're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs." (Bold emphases my own.)
Thank you Comrades!
Maybe, just maybe, they are both full of shit!
B
100 - Clavos
They are ALL full of shit, B-tone!
All 300+ million of them.
Pinches gringos.
101 - Baritone
No, not all 300 million.
My wife's 90 year old Aunt Sis, is a really sweet lady, and she wears a colostomy bag.:)
B
102 - Cindy D
RE #99,
B,
There is video for that. I have been trying to see what Dave thinks about McCain's "socialist" proclivities since Oct 25. No reply.
I posted this 1 minute video to Dan above but I think they both go together.
Here is the video where the doctor's daughter questions McCain.
Dave has been ignoring all evidentiary posts that I address directly to him over the last week or two. He only comments on safe things like remarks I make.
Dave,
Why do you ignore me so? :-(
103 - Dave Nalle
Cindy, most of our leaders support some degree of socialism on some issues. The question is where you draw the line and how much you're willing to put up with. Have I ever said that I agree with John McCain 100%? Have I ever said that I agree with Sarah Palin 100%? Have I ever said that I don't think collectivism is a reasonable way to deal with some situations?
And Cindy, I'm not ignoring you specifically, there are just a lot of things to respond to and responding to questions whose answers ought to be obvious or perhaps should never have been asked seems uniquely pointless.
It is the nature of government to want to control things. All of our presidential and vice presidential nominees are creatures of government and believe to some extent that government control is a good thing. The question for the voter in an election like this is which of them is likely to do the least harm.
As for Palin's comments on the oil industry, I do think that's largely a red herring. That industry as set up as a collectively shared resource of the people of Alaska and all she's doing is following through on the structure which prior governments established. That does not make her personally responsible for that structure, and in fact it's not a bad struture. It's a reasonable compromise between outright government ownership and full privatiztion of the resources.
As I've written before, I believe that collectivism, as a business model, has a great deal of unrealized potential. When people voluntarily enter into collectives where the constituents own an enterprise or a resource or a business, I think it's a potentially excellent way to do business. I belong to three collectives myself and I'm thinking of running for the board of one of them.
Voluntary socialism is a great thing. Socialism imposed involuntarily by government on even a minority of the people when they do not want it, is a great evil.
Dave
104 - Cindy D
"A Funny Thing Happened On the Way to the Smearfest" (as someone said)
Let's not forget McCain's ties to a group associated with pro-Nazi collaborators and Central American death squads.
McCain sat on the advisory board to the U.S. Council for World Freedom:
...Now John McCain may have an Iran-Contra connection. In the 1980s, McCain served on the advisory board to the U.S. chapter of an international group linked to ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America.
The U.S. Council for World Freedom aided rebels trying to overthrow the leftist government of Nicaragua. That landed the group in the middle of the Iran-Contra affair and in legal trouble with the Internal Revenue Service, which revoked the charitable organization's tax exemption.
The council created by retired Army Maj. Gen. John Singlaub was the U.S. chapter of the World Anti-Communist League, an international organization linked to former Nazi collaborators and ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America....
(snip)
"McCain was a new guy on the block learning the ropes," Singlaub said.
Okay, no excuses now! Young Senator McCain began his career amid right-wing extremists. Wait, what no you say? I don't know...it looks awfully ugly.
105 - Baritone
Cindy,
You obviously don't understand. Right wing activities are okay as they are the "true" Americans.
It's those left wing Pinko, Ruskie types that should be hammered. You know, there ought to be a committee, a congressional committee - probably in the House. Call it, say the Unamerican Committee, or no, Actively Unamerican Committee, or no wait, I've got it, the Unamerican Activity Committee in the House, or better yet, YES! The House Unamerican Activities Committee!!! (By jove, I think he's got it!) And I know just the guy to head it up. No wait. He's dead. (Say it ain't so Joe.) Oh well. I'm sure we can come up with a true god fearing right wing Congressman to take up the gauntlet.
That ought to shake up those commie bastards.
B
106 - Cindy D
Thanks for your reply Dave. That position sounds much better and more reasonable than seeing you flinging around epithets like "Marxist". As far as who wants what, we'll see that result on election day.
I personally see the whole "socialist" smear as ending in a good thing. I think a whole bunch of people on the left of capitalism, if for no other reason than to counter the charges against their Democrat, are learning some things about what socialism can really mean. I think they will be finding, for the first time, that they have been hoodwinked into fearing a word they didn't really understand.
107 - Cindy D
B,
I think Lisa said it best when she said, "Sigh..... See what hate and vitriol and stupid ass association bullcrap does? Just blurs what is really meaningful."
108 - Cindy D
B,
"The House Unamerican Activities Committee!!!"
haha! I like it. But, don't we already have one of those? I think it's called the Republican National Committee.
109 - Dave Nalle
Cindy, it would be great for people to be educated, but as it stands right now, it's perfectly effective to just throw out the word 'socialist' as clearly undesirable to identify the kind of statist command and control system which Obama and especially the radicals in Congress advocate.
I'm actually much more concerned about people like Charles Rangel, Nancy Pelosi and John Conyers from the Progressive Caucus, who are at heart much more radical than people realize and who will feel like they have a license to indulge that radicalism if Obama gets elected. I seriously question whether Obama has the experience, the will or the intent to block his own party when it goes too far left and too far in favor of a super-powerful state.
Dave
110 - Dan(Miller)
Dave, re Comment #103
I agree. I would add that words like conservative, liberal, socialist, capitalist and the like are hardly more than labels. In my first BC article, I tried to deal with the current usage of the word "liberal," which has become as much an unfortunate label as the other words listed above. We label someone or some thing as "liberal" or "conservative" or "socialist" or "capitalist" and then that's it; no further discussion required. We forget that the words, even in their current bastardized usage, actually denote a spectrum, a line, and not a single point. There are other words which have clearly defined meanings: one is either pregnant, or one is not; unfortunately, the words listed above tend to be used as though they had the same inflexible meaning.
The United States has had a "progressive" income tax system for many years; I can't remember when that wasn't the case. The question now is not whether we want a progressive income tax. That seems to have been decided long ago, and reversion to something else seems highly unlikely. The question is how progressive we want it to be. Senators McCain and Obama appear to have different views on this.
Similarly, the U.S. is, to a substantial extent, "socialist." That, too, has been going on for many years and seems unlikely to cease to be the case. The question now before us is to what extent, if at all, we want to move further into or away from "socialism." Again, the question is not whether the U.S. is going to be on the spectrum, but where on the spectrum it is going to be. I get the sense that Senators Obama and McCain have different views on this as well.
The use of amorphous words as though they stood for a concept with a clear and well defined meaning is hardly unique to the present Presidential campaign. Still, I wish that those capable of rational thought would pause and reflect for a few moments before yielding to a process which diminishes us all.
Dan(Miller)
111 - Baritone
Dan,
At last, we agree. Those "labels" are thrown out by all with abandon. Whether one is a liberal or a conservative, a capitalist or a socialist is rather a misnomer. The great majority of people can be said to be all of the above as you suggest. It depends largely on what particular issues are under consideration. While I must admit to guilt in this regard, I don't like it when someone refers to someone else as a "typical liberal" or "typical conservative." It's innacurate and unfair.
B
112 - Dan(Miller)
Baritone,
I'm glad as well that we agree on something. However, you say, I don't like it when someone refers to someone else as a "typical liberal" or "typical conservative." It's innacurate and unfair. Yes, it is. The adjective makes it even less substantive, unless "typical" is a construed as a polite expression for "fucking." So construed, the phrase possibly has some meaning. Inaccurate and unfair, probably, but at least somewhat meaningful.
Dan(Miller)
113 - Baritone
But it makes broad assumptions with only the barest of information. In that context the word "typical" is most certainly used as a pejorative. If the noun is vague, its qualifier in this case does little to shed light on its meaning.
B
114 - Ruvy
Lisa,
Let me ask you something. Seriously. If every Jew in the world were to make aliyah, what on earth would Israel do with all of us? It would be impossible. Get real. We can't all live in Israel. It just isn't possible.
Thr boundaries of the Palestine Mandate in 1920 consisted of all of the territory that now comprises the State of Israel, the Golan Heights, and the Kingdom of Jordan. The British were mere trustees of the sole sovereigns of that Mandate, the Jewish People. They didn't act that way.
In 1922, the British illegally ceded the Bashan (Golan Heights) to the French in their Mandate of Syria-Lebanon. In 1922, they illegally separated the territory east of the Jordan, handing it over to an Arab administrator, Abdallah, and closed to the territory to Jewish settlement.
All this territory is by rights ours - even yours, assuming that you are indeed a Jew. The State of Israel acts in the interests of the Jewish People.
It has acted badly.
Nevertheless, to answer you directly, we do not need the Israeli government to provide for us if you all arrive with all of your money. Fourteen million Jews would be enough to be a majority in both Israel and a re-annexed Jordan, and the territory of the Land of Israel will have almost been made whole.
Without annexing Jordan, the "demographic bomb" that fools in the People's Republic of Tel Aviv worry about will disappear. Annexing outright the heartland of our country, Judea and Samaria, as well as Gaza, would be no big deal. Replacing the child-hostile culture of the west with the child-friendly culture of observant Jews will result in a population explosion. That may be hard for you to stomach in your fancy house in Virginia, but as you pointed out, not all the Jews need come home - you could stay out and not be missed.
115 - Lisa Solod Warren
Ruvy, I am indeed a Jew. No need to get nasty. WHY does everyone need to get nasty? And I have neither lots of money NOR a fancy house. Why assume that all Americans or all American Jews are rich?
I just don't think there is room for every Jew there, nor do I think ALL Jews need to (or should)live in one place. Nor do I think it is a good idea for many reasons...
116 - Ruvy
I just don't think there is room for every Jew there, nor do I think ALL Jews need to (or should)live in one place. Nor do I think it is a good idea for many reasons...
Why don't you try elaborating on these reasons, madame, and try in the process not to sound like some ghetto Jew trying to wheedle something out of the goyim. Try elaborating on the reasons that Jews should effectively reject G-d's law and stay out of their G-d given homeland without sounding like an atheist, or a non-believer, or someone who may be pissed off by Jew-hatred, but who lacks the spine to actually do anything about it.
In the end it comes down to simple concepts, Lisa.
kiddúsh hashém, acting in such a way as to recognize the holiness of G-d or Hillúl hashém, acting in such a way as to curse G-d.
I'm no saint in what I've done in life, and I have a great deal to be ashamed of. But I came home, and brought my sons with me, so that I could do what I felt was my duty to my father, and grandfather, may they rest in peace, and plant a firm root in our ancient home that so many of us have died for. I have one tiny deed that I can bring to the Supreme Judge and say I DID SOMETHING RIGHTEOUS.
Were those pogroms in Odessa and all over Russia 100 years ago for nothing? Were the murders of six million Jews for nothing? Haven't you figured out the basic lesson of history that Jews need to learn? Have you not yet learnt that serving goyisher princes brings only death (like the German, British, French, Russian and Austrian Jews who fought each other in WWI)? Do you not even understand the concept that Jews need to fight and kill to keep their one land in a world devoted to death and murder if they are to have any peace at all? Or perhaps you would rather die than face all that?
Go ahead, dear. Explain yourself. Merely to say that there are many reasons for anything says nothing at all.
117 - zingzing
my god ruvy--she wants to lead her own life and not the one YOU think is prescribed for you. your belief has lead you to your current status as someone who believes that fighting and killing is a good thing. it's not. in fact, it's hilarious that you bring up your righteousness just a few sentences before.
just because you believe something is right for you doesn't make it right for everyone.
118 - Ruvy
Zing,
Let Lisa speak her own mind. She's a big girl and can think for herself. I asked her to detail her reasons for her statement. I await her answer. It does not suffice to say "there are many reasons" as an argument. Little girls stamping their feet on the ground say things like that - or they assert "because!"
That is fine for little girls stamping their feet. People who huff and puff on the Huffington Post, holding themselves out as "journalists" can do better than "there are many reasons, there just are" (a typical Lisa-ism).
I await her explanations of her point of view - not yours.
119 - zingzing
yeah well, i wasn't really saying as much about her point of view as about yours, which i find to be spectacularly wrong.
that said, i've got a question for you: if the palestinians were to lay down their arms and say "let's live peaceably together in our mutual holy land," would your beliefs allow it? or are they not, under any circumstances, welcome?
120 - Ruvy
zing,
that said, i've got a question for you: if the palestinians were to lay down their arms and say "let's live peaceably together in our mutual holy land," would your beliefs allow it? or are they not, under any circumstances, welcome?
When I hear that from my Arab neighbors, I'll consider it. I'm waiting to hear that, too.
121 - zingzing
little bit of a cop-out there.
122 - Ruvy
I'm not extending the hand of peace to the Arabs, dude. They want war, and so far as I'm concerned they can have what they want so damned bad.
But I wouldn't put my son or the sons of my neighbors or friends at risk to shut up YOUR damned government and its whining about what they think we are allowed to do or not do.
The Geneva Convention ceased to apply to any of this country on 5 June, 1968. So, we can do what we please in crushing what is in essence an Arab rebellion against OUR sovereign authority in the Land of Israel, rights that came into existence IN INTERNATIONAL LAW when the Mandate for Palestine was adopted. We were then the sole sovereigns over this land and we are now. So, put very simply, any schmuck that wants to challenge that sovereignty is entitled - to some hot lead in his throat.
We have not seen Arabs offering the hand of peace to us, - BUT WHEN THEY DO, I'LL CONSIDER IT. Till then, they can eat lead. NIce, chatting with you zing.
But I'm still waiting for Lisa to "man up" and give her reasons for Jews not to come home to Israel. I don't think she really will.
123 - moon
Ruvy,
Some people just go through life as Professional Kvetches (sp?). And I am not referring to you.
124 - Ruvy
You probably remember this better than I do, Marthe. When TV first burst forth in America, Sid Caesar was the king of late night. On his "Show of Shows" he used to do interviews with "the world's leading expert" of this dumb thing or the other.
He was imitating the Jews at the Kiddush table on Sabbath after morning prayers, who would hold forth on topics they knew nothing about - "the world's leading experts". Comedy is usually a cruel reflection of reality - with an element of dissonance to jar the cognition - and make us laugh. The Jewish world is full of "world's leading experts" who think they know it all and shove doctorates and bad manners in your face in an attempt to show how smart they are.
If I want to know about the Qur'an for example, the last person I would ask would be one of the many Jewish "world's leading experts". I ask a Moslem. It's his holy book, right? And I happen to know a Sufi scholar who is an expert on the Qur'an, the hadith, and the sunna. When I have serious questions, he's the guy I go to.
One of the things you pick up real quick is the immense diversity of opinion in the Moslem world. The Jewish "experts" who think they know it all, don't want to know. Therefore they don't. All they do is kvetch and krekhtz(krekhtzing is the noise sick people make - the sighing, the "oys" the "gevalts" etc.) and whine, while acting as if the whole world is a huge Kiddush table where everyone is dying for their expertise....
125 - moon
I remember Sid Caesar very well--although I didn't always get to stay up and watch either him or Steve Allen.
I liked the Jewish guys who played assimilated roles: Phil Silvers was my hero as he found freedom within The System. I thought of him during the 11 days I infiltrated the US Army....