The FBI's concern over "Sovereign Citizens" seems designed more to intimidate the public than to address a real threat.
Following the pattern of other provocative statements about potential domestic terrorist threats from the Obama Justice Department, the Federal Bureau of Investigation has issued a statement exposing the threat of "hundreds of thousands" of "sovereign citizens" who can turn violent "at the drop of a hat" during encounters with the police.…
Article comments
76 - Zingzing
Do you believe that the us gov't is as despotic as that of Egypt or Syria? Do you want to make it so?
77 - roger nowosielski
I don't go back to #33 or whatever. My point is that America and what it represents at present is not worth protecting.
78 - roger nowosielski
When push will come to shove, of course. All powers behave exactly the same whenever they're threatened.
79 - Zingzing
So you want to push them. At least you realize what you're doing, I guess.
80 - roger nowosielski
It's not a matter of my wanting to make it so. It is going to happen because there are limits to what people will take. Then we'll all see the true nature of the beast.
81 - roger nowosielski
I'm not pushing for any violent overthrow. History has its own way of righting things, and I'm quite willing to let it write its course. All I'm pushing for is greater awareness.
82 - Zingzing
The rest of these yahoos don't seem to realize that they're creating the logic behind the increasing power they think they're fighting against. Useful idiots, as ruvy used to say.
83 - roger nowosielski
I know, the "useful idiot" phrase. But the way I look at it, there is no way but to escalate when you're contesting power. It's never going to relinquish its dominance on its own accord.
84 - roger nowosielski
Of course I realize what I'm doing, but I'm compelled to speak as I see it.
85 - Christopher Rose
zingzing, as you have things backwards, can I call you gnizgniz until you recover?
86 - zingzing
chris, that would be an outrage against my name, and the only way we could settle this is rocket launchers at elementary school.
or you could explain what's backwards about it, instead of just saying it is.
87 - Christopher Rose
If I am understanding you correctly you appear to be claiming that people shouldn't be concerned about or objecting to the hysterical, paranoid and entirely unnecessary increases in the domestic US security services as it provokes them into increasing their efforts?
88 - zingzing
the last bit is right. it's an equal and opposite reaction kind of thing. the first bit about "people shouldn't be concerned or about or objecting" isn't quite my point. it's that the hyperviolent and paranoid reactions do no good. if one were to use reasoned and measured rhetoric instead of proclaiming the end of days and violent revolution, it would be far more successful. there's no need to go about proving the fbi, etc, correct. prove them wrong.
89 - Dr Dreadful
I see what zing is getting at here.
Not a generation goes by without some segment of the population declaring that society/the government/the system/whatever is broken and/or morally, ethically and spiritually bankrupt and needs to be replaced post-haste.
Usually, this is confirmation bias: our basic human need for the life and times we're living in to have some greater significance. Sometimes, however, the doomsayers do have a point. No-one in their right mind, for example, would argue that right now Americans enjoy a greater degree of personal and political freedom than they ever have.
The big worry, right now, is that those who would seek to continue restricting and constricting those freedoms have a far more sophisticated and technologically advanced set of tools at their disposal than ever before.
Then again, so do those who would resist.
The problem is that "Wolf!" has been cried so often before that it's extremely difficult to distinguish the true threats from baseless paranoia; and more often than not the warnings sound like the ramblings of nutcases (and usually are). This, of course, suits the Establishment just fine.
90 - roger nowosielski
Everyone needs an interpreter, and zing here is no exception. In fact, he seems to need it more than most; for some unfathomable reason, he just can't seem to express himself clearly and to the point.
Thank God to interpreters and all sorts of do-gooders.
91 - Christopher Rose
Doc, there is no denying that there has been a huge increase in the number of and the power of security forces in the USA.
At the same time, the USA has been increasing its financial control over its citizens and even made it a requirement for bank staff, lawyers and accountants to report "suspicious" activity (the former have even been given targets and fines for failing to achieve them), so the US has created its own informant network.
All this in the name of security and keeping the people safe.
It's not like the USA previously had an excessively tolerant or relaxed attitude to these things but things have now gone way too far.
I don't agree with your suggestion that those who would resist have anything like the "sophisticated and technologically advanced set of tools" available to the state, to say nothing of its manpower and weaponry.
92 - zingzing
doc's got some of my point down. it's not just crying "wolf." it's screaming bloody murder. it's presenting yourself as a threat then wondering why you're considered a threat. obviously, there comes a point when the authorities stop considering this shit the "rambling of nutcases" and they start using it against us.
do they have reason to use it against us? sure looks like it to someone who'd like to find the reason. even if most of it is just frothy rhetoric, this list suggests they aren't seeing it that way.
93 - El Bicho
The banks have long been required to report the deposit/transfer/withdrawal of certain large amounts
94 - zingzing
roger, you best look in the mirror when you say that. (clear enough?)
95 - Christopher Rose
El B, it isn't a matter of reporting the movement of "large" amounts (actually it was $10 grand), it is a systematic process of reporting anything "suspicious", with quotas, fines for not achieving quotas and a legal requirement to keep such reporting secret.
96 - roger nowosielski
Zing, if there's one thing I do is I don't mince words. I'm not the girlish type you may be. Your recent equivocation on the other thread, trying to justify choice in terms of health concerns, speaks volumes. So don't you tell me to look at the mirror. It is you who need to do the all the looking, good looking, I might add, for what you're about to find right now is but a picture of Dorian.
I wish you luck, though, since it's never too late. You've got to get over first your delinquent state of mind and ways.
It's about to grow up, zing, and join the human race. The time for being a dilettante is over.
And I don't care how many women you dated, on the pill or not. You're still acting and thinking like a juvenile.
97 - zingzing
jesus, roger. i have no idea how i was "trying to justify choice in terms of health concerns," because i really don't know what that's supposed to mean. so far as i can tell, it's meaningless blather. do you even know what you're trying to say?
"And I don't care how many women you dated, on the pill or not."
oh, for fuck's sake. because i know something about birth control, you said i must be "girlish." (and you tell me to grow up?) so i told you how i got to know what i know about birth control. it's probably the same way many men find out most of what they know about birth control.
98 - roger nowosielski
Shoot, zing. How could you miss that's precisely what you were doing. It's only on that account and no other that i had a problem with what your were saying.
Choice needs no justification, period.
99 - zingzing
alright, well, i don't quite know what point you're really trying to make, or why you think it worth making so emphatically. seems a rather pointless point.
but you're pissed at me for saying that the catholic church is wrong for trying to restrict the choices available to their employees because choice needs no justification... and therefore i should just shut up, if i understand you correctly. (not that i'm sure of that in the least.)
i just think i'll have to nod and shrug my shoulders at you on that one.
100 - Dr Dreadful
@ #90: Roger, zingzing has more clarity than almost anyone else at BC - of both thought and expression. The same cannot be said for you, I'm afraid.
@ #91: Chris, technology, even advanced technology, can be used by anyone, for good or evil. While it is true that the average citizen does not have the same scale of access to it as "The Man" does, he/she can still use it very effectively. Think, for example, of Wikileaks or Anonymous. Or the use of social networks by the Arab Spring protestors.
101 - Christopher Rose
It remains to be seen whether Wikileaks, Anonymous and citizen movements such as Occupy or the Arab Spring can actually resist the power that comes from the barrel of a gun. So far the jury is still out on that one.
102 - Corey
Glenn probably IS a government agent! Gotta get out there and thwart the public's mind that the government is OUT OF CONTROL. It certainly is!
103 - Johnnypartain
Go to JohnnyPartain.com for an example of how we come to this. I had my businesses, bank accounts, and house seized by the government after I fired a person who went into bankruptcy with a large international bank aiding him to commit bankruptcy fraud (the president of the bank was his neighbor). PEOPLE DIED AS A DIRECT RESULT. I made complaints to the FBI, Department of Justice, and 5th Circuit regarding the judge's lack of jurisdiction and RICO with the bank and bankruptcee. I showed money laundering between the bank and the Republican party. A federal judge withdrew on my showing, but then I was illegally incarcerated in a federal detention center for 3 months until I sued out a habeas corpus. Now habeas corpus protection is GONE. I had another $95,000 dollars seized from me as a criminal sanction for getting out of federal detention, but I do not have a criminal record and no complaints or indictments agaiinst me...YET. Then federal judges conspired with each other to obstruct justice in other pending civil cases. I went to my Congressman who promised help, but he's now in bankruptcy under the same crooked judges. The judges say they are immune and the FBI says they are required to protect them. Humm, what a citizen to do. Now I'm running for congress to fix this beast from the inside out. I shouldn't have to do this and I wont be pleasant.
104 - American for Liberty
The power, authority, and budget of these agencies has always been proportionate to whatever threat, real or imagined, that it must rise to face. The FBI has always been jealous of the massive power and resources enjoyed by the CIA, because foreign threats present superior justification to exercise this kind of authority. This is how and why we saw Hoover gain so much influence during the communist threat. However, the FBI's jurisdiction is internal, not external. Was it Hoover who defeated communism? Was it McCarthy? The answer is no, but McCarthyism was a massive boon to the agency. A time which many in the agency would benefit to see the return of.. and while years ago that might have seemed unimaginable, most would agree that does not seem such a far fetched policy outcome considering the rhetoric that has already been so effectively introduced under the Bush administration to promote our foreign entanglements. And while progressivism in the justice system has had many positive outcomes, as indeed progressivism in many other sectors has, people by and large fail to consult the history books for the ultimate outcomes which inevitably follow the widespread acceptance of these policies. It's known as fascism, and we the people have seen it before. Turning again to the history books, it is clear that opposing taxation and authoritarian control was actually the basis for the nation the agency serves to protect! However, for some time now the agency has gotten a pass on it's attempts to try its hand in domestic politics, in part because of its historical effectiveness in achieving these types of outcomes. It was called upon to develop creative strategies to suppress anti-war sentiments surrounding the Vietnam war, as well as to suppress the civil rights movement of the 1960's. It was allowed to exercise enormous authority to achieve those ends, resulting in a good deal of poor publicity and backlash. Arguments can be made that technological advancement, globalization, or advancing complexities in political or economic systems have changed the rules of the game, and should require some type of necessary authoritarian mandate to counterbalance. This is the dangerous rhetoric of the fascist, and a road to tyranny. However clearly the FBI is tracking this and there is indeed a movement that has already absorbed most of the young people in this country, as well as a whole spectrum of others. They and everyone else can and should take note of it. It includes people who are concerned with the economy and the massive redistributions of wealth that have occured, people concerned with inflation and the value in their savings accounts, people concerned with continuing decades long conflicts which we initiated that have no tangible benefits to the men, women, and taxpayers who pay the burden. And therefore, we the people can and should exercise our right to call for restraint in our government. And while this might prove inconvenient for those currently in office, if you examine the issue philosophically you will find it incontrovertibly in the American spirit. And most pragmatically, if you examine the issue statistically you will see that change is inevitably on the horizon. While this libertarian movement currently represents only about a 10% minority of voters, we see these philosophies being embraced nationwide by an overwhelming majority of young voters. Efforts to censor and suppress these voices have only galvanized them into a national political movement. A government which fears accountability and those calling for it is certainly undemocratic, and is certainly un-American. We are a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Not the politicans. Not the bankers and Federal Reserve shareholders. Not the corporations. Not the military-industrial complex. Not the special interests. The voices of the people must be heard, and as inconvenient as it may be, they must be addressed democratically. Any man, regardless of the office he holds, or the agency he works for, should face censure for forgetting these basic tenets of our nation. The lack of accountability in government is a popular topic in Washington during election years, but only one man has stood up for these principles on a consistent basis. I urge you all to educate yourselves on these issues, turn off your television sets and get into the habit of forming your own opinions on government affairs. I urge you all to vote for Texas Congressman Ron Paul in the upcoming 2012 Republican primaries.
105 - Dr Dreadful
Vote for Ron Paul and help eliminate the Number One threat to liberty in this country - the paragraph!
106 - cameowalkin
The article was excellent. The comments were disheartening. How is it no one sees the UN is putting out PR through the FBI, to condition the public to accept that their own peaceful countrymen are terrorists that need killing; so that when they signal for the genocide to begin in all the cities and big towns, legitimized by "devising necessary interpretations of existing laws, or creating new ones like the Patriot Act, to deal with the problems", they will have brainwashed the public to calmly accept the news, walk over the bodies, and take their place in the food lines. So these kinds of reports from the FBI are really about anesthetizing people's morality and critical thinking through repeating outrageous lies, over and over, just like Hitler's Nazis did.