George W. Bush might not have won the White House in 2000 without carrying the state of Florida, and he might not have won the White House in 2004 without carrying the state of Ohio.
In both states there was clear and obvious evidence of election rigging but rather than "upset" the American people with an accurate recount and investigation, Republican politicians and courts buried the Florida results. Using some of the most bizarre logic ever applied in American politics, the power structure, including the Democratic leadership, decided it was better to preserve the civility of an American election than to pursue corruption and election fraud.
Those of us who have difficulty understanding that logic and that outcome are cast as fringe dwellers and conspiracy theorists--even though the evidence of fraud was clear and not investigated. But for the majority of Americans, image and calm was substantially more important than truth and law. As a nation, we preferred to live with a possibly illegal and stolen election than with the inconvenience and awkwardness of an investigation.
And then it all happened again in 2004 in Ohio. And once again the very strong and clear possibility that Republicans were and are still guilty of election fraud mostly falls on deaf American ears. It's mind boggling. The fact that there is a good possibility that the Republican party fixed the 2004 election and stole the White House and seats in both houses of Congress is not thought to be worth a swift and thorough investigation in 21st Century America.
I raise this inconvenient issue at this time because faced with such an investigation, still being pushed by a few very stubborn Democrats and lawyers, the Republicans tried to destroy the warehouse full of paper ballots that may constitute the key evidence of fraud in the state of Ohio.
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Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Mark Schannon
Terrific article and more than a little scary. When the Republicans introduce a constitutional amendment ending the 2-term limit for presidents, then I'm really going to start worrying...
In Decaf Veritas
2 - gonzo marx
you forgot the entire Diebold debacle, which i and many others have completely documented
google around, Slashdot and even M.I.T. have shown just hwo easy it is to manipulate those machines, a good case can be made that the very design was meant to be able to be hacked undetectably
woe is U.S.
Excelsior?
3 - Al Barger
Mr Rothstein, you're a treasure here. You've got your own little alternative reality going on when you just come up wholecloth with stuff like "In both states there was clear and obvious evidence of election rigging but rather than "upset" the American people with an accurate recount and investigation, Republican politicians and courts buried the Florida results."
What's really cool is that you seem to really convince yourself of this, as if every two-bit Democrat in the land didn't spend months shouting every kind of contrived nonsense from the rooftops. Your people were just flat fabricating crap about Florida roadblocks to prevent black people from voting, and crazier and more arcane stuff than that.
Of course, back in this place that normal people call "reality," the Democrats were responsible for most of the Florida vote counting, but still weren't quite able to steal that election. Nice try though. And Ohio 04 wasn't that close.
You seem to have trouble getting your mind around the fact that you just flat lost. A couple MILLION more people voted for W than Kerry. A less sympathetic person might describe your refusal to recognize reality as merely childish, but I prefer to consider it a creative imagination.
4 - Peter J
Fantastic article Richard,
Of course, as usual anytime someone brings this up they automatically become a a component of the 'lunatic fringe of conspiracy theorists'.
Of course we all know that conspiracies never occur. Just how fuckin stupid can you be?
I mean, just because every single bit of evidence (or lack of or tampered with) points to other alternative realities you people won't let it go.
Why can't you just be plain dumb and stop questioning the intentions of our honest and loyal leaders. Christ, you'd think that there was something personal in it for them like, say, oil concerns, contractual agreements, Bell helicopter contracts, power, money, whatever.
Look at the Warren Commission, they did an excellent investigation of themselves and in the end they were cleared, just as they said. Man , what a waste of time.
Look at the elections in south Fl. where the vote would have been and was predominantly black and democratic in 2000. The black caucus called for a re-count but before it could be completed Katy Harass stopped the count. Just because she was Bush's secretary of elections doesn't mean she would actually interfere with the election procedures.
The people I worry about most are these fools who can't smell shit when it's smeared all over their faces.
The problem now is no matter what an investigation finds the damage is done.
This country is so naive. A president who stands against the status quo is murdered, his brother , who bravely stands harder is murdered, everyone who supposedely had anything to do with the presidents murder is immediately murdered, his brother is murdered by a man with 2 names Sirhan Sirhan,(whic translates into Silly Silly) who is so apparently brainwashed that he slips from existence. A civil rights leader who is a threat to the status quo is murdered, Jezuz, just watching all of this and to say not ONE was a conspiracy is the most dilusional vision ever.
If this occurred in another country they would have been called conspiracies or coup d'etat's or whatever you could come up with that implied take overs but in this country it's always just some lone nut, who happened to know a parade route that was changed only minutes before and had othe very, VERY questionable circumstances,
JUST LIKE THESE ELECTIONS.
5 - Clavos
In May of 2001, The Miami Herald (a liberal newspaper) commisssioned a recount of the Florida vote. Much to their chagrin, their recount showed that not only did Bush win, but that the margin was actually greater than the "official" tally.
PBS reported the story here.
6 - Peter J
Point is, Clavos is that we never really know.
All of this 'liberal' media who always seem to come up standing on the conservative side of the see-saw cannot really be classified one way or the other, they're usually just reporting news as they see it, unless we're talking about FOX. They will, in the end, promote the story which will be read the most. Since newspapers are only meant to report the news, not become it, I always find it questionable when any paper is deemed one side or the other. It seems that a paper or agency is only anti-liberal when they report on a conservative slant and vice versa.
The night after the elections the results were so unreal and leading on the conservative side in entire districts which were historically democrat that every single district representative called for a single democratic senator to back them up in calling for a recount. The fact that not a one stood up in itself caused much suspicion. There was only one reason and no other for the recount to not be completed and the complicity from his brother Bubba to his campaign manager K.Hairass, in stopping the count only hours before completion were straight forward proof of wrongdoing.
The only thing not clear is the democrats failure to stand up for a recount. Where was ole liberal Teddy?
To add to the confusion on the democrats non-response we come to the 2004 election where Kerry showed a clear lead in the polls up to a month before the election and mysteriously stopped campaigning.
I was in disbelief as I watched the dems literally hand it to 'W' at the very last moments.
I have no explanation for this criminal neglect except for a theory I couldn't even come up with. What reason could there have been in 2000 and 2004 for complicity involving the democratic party? I'll leave that for a real conspiracy nut,
I'm just a lite-weight.
7 - Peter J
On the same subject, this is a great example of why the High Powers in this country will always shoot down any vote system which would make it easier for a majority of citizens to make an informed vote.
Why not have a ballot which would be mailed to registered voters? They could then use computers, news, or discussion to arrive with their decisions.
Perish the thought that everyone who was voting could sit down, with no time constraints and then simply deliver their results to the polling office where they could be properly identified and their secret ballot be accounted for.
That almighty power that the 'Status Quo' hold may just be shifted to the people. Wouldn't that be a Real demonstration of Democracy?
8 - RedTard
To draw 13,000 independent polling organizations across America into a mass conspiracy without accidentally alerting a democratic mole or a person with morals, without leaving a single paper trail or memo is indeed amazing. Perhaps these guys are way more competent than I thought.
This article is straight propaganda, repeating the same lie eventually does create 'truth' though. Keep up the good work and you'll propel your group of manipulative power hungry pigs ahead of the ones currently in power!
9 - Clavos
Why not have a ballot which would be mailed to registered voters?
In Florida, we do; it's called the absentee ballot.
And many of us (me and my wife included) use it in lieu of going to the polls for some of the reasons you gave, and frankly, because it's more convenient-you vote in your living room.
You just have to make sure you mail it back before the deadline.
10 - RedTard
"in this country will always shoot down any vote system which would make it easier for a majority of citizens to make an informed vote."
An 'informed' vote normally means one going towards the party one agrees with. Democrats normally favor the methods you prescribe. I think one state is even turning to some sort of lottery to try and draw people in. Democrats know that the types that are too lazy and complacent to vote are probably the same ones too lazy and complacent to take care of themselves, just the kind of people who buy into their victimhood cult and vote democrat.
11 - Al Barger
Notice how Peter J makes these grand conspiratorial claims based on motivations rather than any evidence at all. Oil contracts, evil Republicans - but in fact no one to corroborate, for example, the claims about police preventing black folks from voting. Look, you KNOW in your bones that the Republicans are guilty, so why do you linger over these picayune details about facts and proof?
Also, they couldn't get a Democrat senator to back up their nonsense at the crucial time. Is that because they were all bought off, or because they had just not even a tiny thread of legitimate reason to do what the wingnuts wanted them to do?
12 - Dave
2000 Dems: WAAAAAHHH!! Punch cards!
2004 Dems: WAAAAAHHH!! Voting machines!
What's next?
13 - Dave Nalle
I don't understand how anyone can still promote this sort of misinformation after all the studies and analysess which have proven that whatever tampering took place was not a significant factor in either of these elections. Yes, there were a lot of screwups and there's good reason to improve the process by which we vote, but I thought the crazy conspiracy theories were long dead.
Why does the left keep bringing up these canards while steadfastly doing everything they can politically to prevent any genuine reform of the voting system?
Dave
14 - Peter J
Clavos, I live in Fl and I vote the same way. It's the only responsible way to vote all of the candidates and issues responsibly, being able to investigate as you vote. I know I'm just not smart enough to go to a booth and make life changing choices while a line is forming behind me. Most people , except for a few geniuses, would feel intimidated and fail to vote responsibly.
Now, I challenge anyone to go back to the thread and point to where I even mentioned Republicans. I did however mention Democrats ir-responsible actions which led to improper counts and investigations at the time that they were relative. It was the Democrats refusal to act on the glaring discrepencies and I admittedly could not account for. If as you say there were no discrepencies how would you account for such differences from past voting results in black neighborhoods?
Also, the claims I made were generalizations on a compilation of subjects where accusations of collusion were claimed. I never stated that they were all correct, I did mention the un-likelyhood that they were ALL wrong. What are the odds of that.
Finally, whenever I broach these subjects I always allude to alternative methods of voting, investigating, or finalizing the problem with an answer which, although may not appease all, may provide other avenues of thought for someone who is like myself; not claiming to have all of the answers but not being afraid to keep asking questions just because some narrow minded naysayers will always bend to the will of the establishment. This failure to question authority is also a reason that their is not much so-called 'proof'. It's hard to gather evidence when the opposition is constantly shouting you down with accusations of un-patriotic and lefty at every turn. What really amazes and saddens me is when someone whose opinion I value and respect does the same thing, name calling and shutting down at any questions posed for lack of evidence in past inquiries when there is also no proof of innocence. Why not question when thing don't always appear balanced. Not all of us who pose thes questions are making accusations, I'm certainly not. We're also not all 'nuts' as some people are so ready to accuse.
Sometimes I wish for this whole tangled web of worms comes crashing down, proving that at least half of these so-called 'conspiracies' which you all seem intent on swallowing are so very real and we are so very fucked.
Just the law of averages shows that it's ir-responsible to shuffle everything that you don't want to believe under a rug, especially these days when our government and administration lie so readily and easily at every turn. Sometimes I believe that they're doing it just to test the water.
15 - Dave Nalle
Now, I challenge anyone to go back to the thread and point to where I even mentioned Republicans. I did however mention Democrats ir-responsible actions which led to improper counts and investigations at the time that they were relative. It was the Democrats refusal to act on the glaring discrepencies and I admittedly could not account for.
It's not hard to account for. They were cheating as much as they could too, and didn't much want that to come under scrutiny.
If as you say there were no discrepencies how would you account for such differences from past voting results in black neighborhoods?
I think we can all agree there were problems. What bothers me is the efforts to turn these small and scattered oddities into more than they are. If you take all the discrepancies in Ohio and replace them with the equivalent results from the previous presidential election, Bush still would have won. The margin of victory in Ohio was just too large for the various problem precincts to make a difference.
Dave
16 - gonzo marx
and for just a single article on the Diebold bit, which has much more linkage inside the article for further perusal...
there's much more, as i've been reporting on BC for more than a year now
also, contrary to what some of the folks around here want to assert, if you check soem of the links in the original Post, you get some interesting studies, with all the requisite Facts and Figures fully documented... about all kinds of problems with various elections
do NOT believe me on these, check the link i gave, and the ones the Poster put in this Article here
then decide for yourself
but almost anyone who looks at all this data objectively will at least conclude there is some seriously fucked up shit going on...
unless, of course... they have benefitted from it
your mileage may vary
Excelsior?
17 - JustOneMan
Pretty humorous and blatantly false...Heres the REAL story on election fraud....by the party that invented it... Democrats...
Careful review of the facts shows that in 2004, paid Democrat operatives were far more involved in voter intimidation and suppression efforts than their Republican counterparts. Examples include:
* Paid Democrat operatives charged with slashing tires of 25 Republican get-out-the-vote vans in Milwaukee on the morning of Election Day.
* Misleading telephone calls made by Democrat operatives targeting Republican voters in Ohio with the wrong date for the election and faulty polling place information.
* Intimidating and deceiving mailings and telephone calls paid for by the DNC threatening Republican volunteers in Florida with legal action.
* Union-coordinated intimidation and violence campaign targeting Republican campaign offices and volunteers resulting in a broken arm for a GOP volunteer in Florida.
Vote fraud and voter registration fraud were significant problems in at least a dozen states around the county. Vote fraud is a reality in America that occurred not only in large battleground states like Wisconsin but in places like Alabama and Kentucky. The record indicates that in 2004, voter registration fraud was mainly the work of so-called “nonpartisan” groups such as Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) and NAACP National Voter Fund. Examples include:
* Joint task force in Wisconsin found “clear evidence of fraud in the Nov. 2 election in Milwaukee,” including more than 200 felon voters, more than 100 double voters and thousands more ballots cast than voters recorded as having voted in the city.
* NAACP National Voter Fund worker in Ohio paid crack cocaine in exchange for a large number of fraudulent voter registration cards in names of Dick Tracy, Mary Poppins and other fictional characters.
* Former ACORN worker said there was “a lot of fraud committed” by group in Florida, as ACORN workers submitted thousands of fraudulent registrations in a dozen states across the country, resulting in a statewide investigation of the group in Florida and multiple indictments and convictions of ACORN/Project Vote workers for voter registration fraud in several states.
18 - JustOneMan
ahhhh the sound of silence...when the Dumbocrats realize that they are defenseless!
19 - JP
Richard, great article. (JOM, clever wordplay there with "Dumbocrats," that would take the average person MONTHS to come up with)..
I *was* astounded by the people's lack of interest in what is happening to our democracy until (1) I noticed how many more people can name the contestants on American Idol than their State Reps, and (2) I listened to right wing radio for an hour or so. Listen to Hannity enough, you'll be "Hannitized" (not me, thanks!) into believing everything's right with the world and all these suggestions of impropriety are simply attempts to "undermine our troops."
These truly are disappointing times. Thanks for writing this.
20 - Nancy
Regardless of what some who frequent this website contend, this is a valuable & important article. No US voter of any party affiliation can afford to ignore or forget that there are those who will and do not hesitate to violate the constitution, resort to fraud, theft, or subversion, or any other means, in order to attain and remain in power. Currently, they masquerade as Republicans, but in truth they belong to no party but their own.
21 - Dave Nalle
So Nancy, when the Democrats rally together to steal elections all over the country this November are you going to complain even one little bit, or with the fraud they commit be ignored as it always has been?
Dave
22 - Nancy
As long as there are no major problems I have no problems; but you yourself are aware of the MAJOR issues & very questionable situations that have occurred in the past two elections, which rendered the election counts tenuous, to say the least, and questionable in the minds of far more than just the losing party. There is substantial evidence of voting fraud in both Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004, and you know it; and there is already unease concerning the Diebold machines at the very least, in the upcoming elections.
I should think you'd be as anxious as any other citizen to make sure that any election is run fairly and honestly, so that there is no question and can be no allegations of fraud or theft...or perhaps you don't care, as long as your "party" wins? I tell you, if Ted Kennedy won in 2008, I'd be the first to yell, since I would know it wasn't a true election, and I'd rather the whole damned thing be re-staged, no matter the expense, than to have a repeat of the crap that went on in either Florida or Ohio; and if the Dems had half a spine, or Bush had even a shred of integrity, they should have stuck it out & insisted on getting the votes verified, so there would be no question of the legitimacy of the election. I, personally, would not want to be president if it meant a substantial percentage of voters were convinced I & my followers had cheated, lied, fixed voting machines, or otherwise subverted the elections process.
23 - Nancy
I forget, you say you're a libertarian, not a Republican. Whatever - the current putative incumbent and his cartel are not legitimate occupants of the WH as far as I and far too many others are concerned, nor are they bona fide Republicans. They're just neocons & fundamentalist nazis posturing as Republicans.
24 - Dave Nalle
Actually, I am currently a Republican, having written off the LP after almost 30 years with them.
As for your 'evidence' of tampering in 2000 and 2004, it's just conspiracy theory nonsense. The problems with the voting machines are a real concern for the future, but there's no actual evidence that they were used to steal any votes. And every impropriety or questionable issue that's been raised has a perfectly good, sensible explanation.
What's more, extensive statistical analysis of voting patterns has been done to prove that based on prior elections the results for Ohio in 2004 and Florida in 2000 were within the norms for those states and that even if all the even slightly questionable votes were changed in Ohio to match what the Democrats think they should have been, Bush still would have won the state.
This is a manufactured, purely partisan issue, and it's a discredit to those who are still trying to use it to create dissension so long after the conspiracy theory has been soundly discredited.
Dave
25 - Nancy
I'm talking about the issues in Ohio & Florida of conflict of interest, of deliberate shorting of voting machines in largely minority areas, of persons legally registered being turned away by polling places being "closed" early, and other shenanigans that almost exclusively involved GOP members. There were enough of these situations to convince me that both elections were fraudulent enough in spots that at the least there ought to have been some kind of investigation, and the USSC should NOT have gotten involved for any reason. They lost their credibility as impartial for doing so, since far too many of them should have recused themselves as beholden to one candidate or the other.