Dispelling the common myth of the educated liberal.
Kim Strassel's excellent column today effectively makes the case that both Santorum and Romney are playing (to lose) Obama's class warfare game. One peripheral phrase leapt out at me, and spurred me to write this. Strassel says:…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Glenn Contrarian
Irene -
There's a benefit of busing that goes far beyond what you hear from this or that parent - and that's broadening the perspective of the students.
The most racist school I ever attended was an all-white private school - and yes, I was one of the racists at the time. When you have a school - or any social setting, whether it's a town or a county or a company or whatever - the more homogenous it is ethnically and racially, the more racist the students/citizens will be. In an ethnically mixed school, sure, there will be racial tensions - but that's because the mixture of races (and the clash of cultures) cannot be avoided and must be addressed.
And you know what? Even though there will be ethnic/racial/cultural strife as long as there are people who look/act/speak differently from one another, what the mixing of the cultures does is to force people to adapt and - eventually - accept one another.
THAT, Irene, more than anything else, is the greatest benefit of busing. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule - there are places where some children have not seen any benefit whatsoever from busing. But in the BIG picture, the more our kids meet and interact with kids of other ethnicities/races/religions/whatever on a daily basis, the more that they learn to understand and accept those who are different.
Sure, your head is probably exploding right now, but I really don't care - because what's wrong with our schools has very little to do with busing, and a whole lot to do with conservatives on one side who want to slash school funding to the bone, and liberals on the other side who support the teachers' union that won't allow crappy teachers to be fired...
...and our culture as a whole is at fault since so many of our kids are 'latchkey' kids where both parents work and there's not one at home to supervise and care for the kids.
THOSE - and not busing - are the real problems with our school system.
27 - zingzing
education is not a bad thing... i hope that's not a question around here.
28 - Igor
18-Bill requires some data, not just a flamboyant assertion.
...On average, the public sector lives far too much better than the private sector...
Are you claiming that all those big mansions in Atherton are inhabited by public emploees? That's news to me, since I know several people in Atherton and they are all Entrepeneurs and small to medium businessmen.
I don't know one teacher who lives in Atherton. Not one social worker.
What am I missing here, Bill, or are you fibbing?
29 - Glenn Contrarian
Igor -
Bill's saying 'on average'. What the problem is, is that Bill is offended at the idea that most public-sector workers earn middle-class wages...but, as you pointed out, NONE get rich.
30 - The Obnoxious American
Igor,
Read the below article to read about government retirement plans that require little investment but after a mere 25 years, are worth over a million bucks. Either I went into the wrong industry, or there is something very, very wrong here.
31 - Glenn Contrarian
OA -
"Poison the well" much?
What you're doing is showing that because a few - A FEW - government employees have a good pension plan, well, THAT means that ALL government employees have it so good! You're taking the instance of ONE city - NYC, which has a high-as-a-cat's-back cost of living to begin with - and using that to pass judgment on ALL government employees.
And the proof of your error? First, ONE QUARTER of all teachers in Texas have second jobs just to make ends meet - but YOU are talking about cutting the pay and benefits of government employees even further.
Second, did you read ALL of the article you referenced? Or did you just read the parts that suited your purpose? Here's some that was towards the end of the artice:
Many public-sector employees - especially frontline employees like teachers, cops and firefighters - have difficult, important and often dangerous jobs. They deserve to be well-compensated. And, for the most part, they are. After six years, police and firefighters can earn more than $90,000, excluding overtime.
Another irony: Salaries for public employees - math and science teachers, for example - could be raised if so much of their compensation wasn’t backloaded in pension costs.
WELL, OA - You said: "government plans require little investment"...and used this article as proof - BUT THIS ARTICLE SAYS SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, DOESN'T IT?
BTW - one-bedroom apartments in Manhattan (including Harlem) START at about $3500 per month. I know this because I was just there for New Year's Day and I checked out the local cost of living. If you don't want to live in "Section 8" housing, you'd better have a pretty good income just to live in Harlem, much less anywhere in the southern (and more affluent) half of Manhattan...and from what we saw and learned from our family in Queens, it isn't much better there.
Oh, and one more thing - since government employees are SO overcompensated in your opinion, and since we've got million-dollar retirement plans (again, in YOUR opinion), why is it that among all the government retirees I know (including myself) that I know of ZERO millionaires?
Hm?
32 - troll
Glenn Contrarian understates the problem in Texas where under Gov Perry's leadership the number of moonlighting teachers has risen to over 40% according to this AP report
33 - roger nowosielski
How are you doing, "troll." Happy to know you're still alive and kicking into 2012.
Better times awaiting, I'm certain. I hope you'll second.
34 - Glenn Contrarian
troll -
Thanks - I appreciate that.
35 - roger nowosielski
I don't put much credence in fly-by-night commenters, especially when they're not seen but only heard.
Besides, Glenn, education is not where you want to build your best case if your argument is on behalf of civil servants at large. Being a teacher is a vocation.
I know, we've heard it time and again, to the point we no longer understand the point. But the point, the fact of the matter is, you're not going to recruit better teachers by offering them better pay. Pay has got nothing to do with it. The love of it has, indeed, it's all it takes.
"Troll" has been hibernating too long in the midst of a Minnesota winter, so I suppose he's got somewhat of an excuse, and I'm doing my damnedest to extend my understanding. But what's your excuse, Glenn, so tell, since you live in the tropics? Or is it just, as befits the liberal mindset, always to defend the liberal standpoint? -- more money will fix everything.
36 - Irene Athena
I've met plenty simple folk I could have quite an engaging conversation with, and then again, plenty of those with formal education I'd rather have nothing to do with.
Very good Roger. That was exactly my point.
It's infuriating enough to watch someone who, having been admitted to an elite school on the strength of a competitive exam he paid someone ELSE to take for him, adopts a haughty attitude towards those who makes a contribution to society through honest albeit humble work.
It's absolutely GALLING when that elite fraud, after learning hardly anything besides how to navigate around the power network, has the connections to land in a place of influence, where he will make poorly informed decisions (or grossly self-serving ones) about "what's best for" the "uneducated ones."
In #25, I posted a link about Annette Polly Williams, a black mother who had had it up to HERE with "educated" people telling her what was best for her kids. She worked as an elected official, and both Democrats and Republicans could see that she was making sense.
37 - Glenn Contrarian
Roger -
Teaching is certainly a vocation - no argument there. Most teachers do so because they love to teach.
Problem is, can a teacher do his or her job well as is traditionally expected of them if they have to have a second job just to make ends meet?
Your question - whether I believe that money will 'fix everything' - seems like more of a retort than a rhetorical question...and it reminds me of a time that a social worker once told me that it made no sense that my wife and I - as Foster parents of medically-fragile children - made substantially more than Foster parents of 'normal' kids. Her point - like yours - was "you should be doing this for the love of the kids, not love of the money". My reply to her was to challenge her to talk to other Foster parents who took care of medically-fragile kids and ask them if they'd do it for the 'normal kid' compensation.
Why did I say that? Because if she wanted us to be able to do our job and to do it well - which not only entailed being Foster parents, to always be there for them, but also to provide the daily comprehensive medical and nursing care they needed - then the state would have to pay us enough to where only one of us would need to work outside the home.
The point, Roger, is that it's the same with the teachers. If you want them to do a job and to do it as well as is traditionally expected, then you pay them well enough that they don't need to get second jobs. I have ZERO problem with merit pay or with firing underperforming teachers...but I have a big problem with the idea that paying teachers less somehow won't hurt our kids' education.
And btw - how about comparing our teachers' pay to those in nations where the kids perform a lot better? I don't think you'll like the results, because you'll find that in several of those nations, the teachers are paid quite well - on the truly professional level - and because of this, the state is able to pick and choose from the very best of college graduates, and not just eagerly accept anyone with a no-name degree who decides to apply to be a teacher.
You get what you pay for, Roger - and if you pay crappy wages, you WILL get crappy service. The same goes with teachers as in any other profession.
P.S. - I'm back in Washington, at least for now.
38 - roger nowosielski
"You get what you pay for, Roger."
Bullshit, Glenn, it only applies to people who are motivated by pay, bought and sold for. Human worth goes beyond pay, way beyond pay, it's not commensurable with pay.
I get a measly eight hundred a month. Two hundred more would make me comfortable, indeed, very happy. True, I don't have a family to support, so I suppose I am an exception. Even so, I would be a dedicated teacher from dawn to dusk for a stupid grand a month,and I'd be happier than a lark.
Don't talk to me about dedication and pay. You don't know jack shit about it, you never have and you never will.
39 - zingzing
that was just mean, roger.
40 - Irene Athena
Sorry Roger, that was #23 that linked to the Annette Polly Williams interview (and also a link on a legal site about on the pros and cons of busing.
There are so many (non-racist) reasons to oppose busing. One of the most compelling is the "Right Goal, Wrong Place" There is PRECIOUS. LITTLE. TIME. IN. THE. SCHOOL. DAY already to address the academic needs of students, including physical, music, arts, life skills...
"Forcing people" to get along takes time (an infinite amount of time, I would add, as its a Sysiphean task, but it's at the very least a non-zero amount.)
Creating lasting harmony takes an enormous amount of very INTENTIONAL effort. It doesn't "just happen" when folks from two hostile groups occupy the same building. People who are negotiating peace between Israeli and Palestinian teenagers, and those who did the same for Catholic and Protestant teens in Northern Ireland, know that is a VERY time-consuming process, though well worth it.
Maybe in areas of the US where there is still racial tension, programs based on models that have been successful in similar situations could be adopted. I don't know if that would work or not. It might work out better to have kids from all over the city get together at parks throughout the city on Saturday...
In any case, busing has been a failure academically and after 30 years, there is still bigotry that can't be "forced out," so it's been a social failure, too. That's why most districts had stopped doing it by the end of the 90's.
It's time to try something new, if we really care about academics AND racial harmony.
41 - roger nowosielski
Harmony has got to start at the heart, isn't so, Irene? Otherwise, it's just a pretense.
42 - roger nowosielski
Mean my ass, zing. If you and Glenn both insist on playing the liberal marionette, that's exactly what you deserve.
Michelangelo did't paint the Pieta because of his commission; he painted it only because his commission afforded him to do so. And it was no different for Leonardo or any artist of greater or lesser renown, and you do know that for a fact. True teaching is no different. It's an art.
So the sooner you get off your high liberal horse and the frickin' ideology that comes with it, the sooner you'll rejoin the human race and deserve a seat at the table. Not until.
But knowing your obstinacy, I'm not holding my breath.
43 - Glenn Contrarian
Roger -
I get a measly eight hundred a month. Two hundred more would make me comfortable, indeed, very happy. True, I don't have a family to support, so I suppose I am an exception. Even so, I would be a dedicated teacher from dawn to dusk for a stupid grand a month,and I'd be happier than a lark.
I'll ignore the profanity and the snide comments to point out one thing - maybe $1K/month is enough for you, but you are simply YOU. Like you said, you don't have a family, and therefore you don't have to spend more for a bigger place to live, more food to eat, and let's not forget all the other expenses that go along with having kids.
So, what, then - are you proposing that we only pay teachers more if they have families?
Maybe you enjoy getting by on only $800/month, but that's YOU...and just because you think something's good enough for you doesn't mean it's good enough for anyone else. Really, Roger, do you think that 40% of teachers in Texas are taking second jobs simply because they are GREEDY???? Come on now - let's apply a little common sense here!
44 - roger nowosielski
@36
I'm not so much perturbed by fraud, Irene, or false credentials. It's pretty much a given in our society. But I'll certainly not pay any homage to anyone's claim to expertise, whatever the subject. If they claim to be an expert, let them prove it.
45 - roger nowosielski
I really don't want to talk, Glenn. Sorry, an not in the mood.
46 - Zingzing
Roger, you really want to tell Glenn, who works with disabled children, that he knows nothing of dedication? All while crying over $200 a month? Maybe I'm missing something here, but damn...
47 - Jordan Richardson
Roger just wants to piss on people and then tell them that he doesn't want to discuss the details when they dare argue with the stench. Business as usual for the shitty little coward.
48 - El Bicho
The thought of Roger teaching children is a scary notion
49 - roger nowosielski
Zing and Jordan, the two stooges as usual, in search for the third.
Anything else of note to contribute, Jordan, since you've suddenly reappeared?
And btw, what has Glenn working with disabled children got anything to do with anything; no I didn't know it. I responded to his speech and only his form of speech, nothing else.
And Jordan, I really think you should crawl back to your cubbyhole if this here comment is the extent to your future contributions.
50 - roger nowosielski
#48
Care to explain, El Bicho, or should I take the import of your comment as for the general effect?
51 - Jordan Richardson
The weird thing is that you don't get to tell me when or where to "appear," pal. Get over yourself.
52 - roger nowosielski
Was I crying over two hundred buck, zing, or just said I'd be happy if I had it.
So what was it now? Your lack of reading apprehension skills?
I don't think so. You willfully misrepresented what I said out of nothing but pure meanness, just because it suited your whatever purpose.
Stay true to whatever is your true self, zing. I couldn't possibly do any more damage to you than you're doing it yourself.
53 - roger nowosielski
Didn't tell you jack shit, pal, where to go and where not to. Only made an observation as to your recent absence.
Not to say, Jordan, that absence makes the heart grow fonder. We're not there yet.
In time, perhaps. Don't you wish?
54 - zingzing
oh, roger... control yourself.
55 - roger nowosielski
Did I say something out of hand?
56 - roger nowosielski
And, btw, you haven't responded to my outright accusation of willful misrepresentation on your part, as per #52. Are you is or are you ain't?
Going by your rather lame attempt at diversion, "control yourself," I reckon you ain't.
True to form, zingo, always true true to form. That's what I love 'bout you, always so predictable.
57 - zingzing
would "moaning" be a better word? "lusting?"
maybe i chose to read it one way for effect, which, as i have it from a philosophical authority, is a move worthy of plato.
‹^› ‹(•¿•)› ‹^›
xoxo
(you quit being a bitch and i will as well. your accusation against glenn, and your rather silly protestation of ignorance about his line of work, was out of line. if you'd like to pretend you're above the insults of others, stop insulting them back--you couldn't stop yourself from having a comeback on jordan, el b and i--and your "two stooges" comment was timed horribly.)
58 - roger nowosielski
Glenn, you started this whole shebang and all your friends have came out of the woodwork, Canada, Africa, even the la-la land, to bail you out -- just because I dared challenge a plank in the liberal dogma. That's the only conclusion I can draw unless you're all real buddies -- chummy chummy, touchy touchy, feely feely, the sex bit and all that. But I don't think so because of the physical distance, unless of course your correspond by email and exchange dirty pictures. So yes, it's got to be that darn liberal ideology that binds you all so close. I really wish I could rediscover a bond so strong to unite me forever with my fellowmen, and women too. Got to tell me that secret, zing and Jordan, the two rascals you two.
Anyway, Glenn, since you started this whole affair and have done your best to endear me to my natural-born enemies (someday perhaps friends), do you care to add a word to two?
I'll listen for an hour or two because I feel unusually jovial this very moment. Jordan and zing have put me in the very right mood, they've always had the knack.
59 - roger nowosielski
I ain't a bitch, zing, I don't know how to be a bitch, zing. I'm neither a gay, zing, nor a woman. If there's something you can teach me about being a bitch, teach me. I'm always willing to learn.
60 - roger nowosielski
And no, bitch, I can confidently say that now since you're not all that uncomfortable with it, "moaning" is not was I was doing -- unless of course you were trying to recreate one of your bedroom scenes with me on the receiving end.
No, thank you. I've had my share of experiences that'd last me a lifetime. I'm over it now. Truth is where I get off. Truth and nothing but the truth is the only thing that makes mo cum.
61 - roger nowosielski
mo cum --- that's a good one! Like a mojo and moblow.
62 - zingzing
you know what i mean, roger. you can pretend you don't, but you do. since i labeled myself with the same term, it's hard to take such offense, unless you're calling me a homosexual woman for some reason... in which case, i will teach you about being a homosexual woman, if that's what you desire, you sexy beast.
63 - roger nowosielski
Come on, bitch, talk to me.
Now's the time.
64 - roger nowosielski
I've been there, zing. Know about the dimensions of human sexuality. But seriously, I'm trying to repair a relationship if at all possible.
Do you really think I was attacking Glenn or the idea?
65 - roger nowosielski
BTW, never told you. You were always Johnny on the spot, just as I ever was. Talking 'bout the internet, of course. I've never told you that, but I always appreciated your ability to think on your feet, if you know what I mean, rather than having to retreat and regroup in order to compose an answer. It's as sure a sign of an active and searching mind as any, and the only reason I haven't complimented you on it before is, as you can can, we were (thus far) natural-born adversaries. Cindy was like that too, and I sure as hell miss her.
What is the sense, I ask, in posting a comment if you have to wait a day or two for a response? I don't know if you know anything about chess, my favorite game, but that would be like playing a speed, say, a two-minute game, while your opponent plays postal.
66 - zingzing
what do YOU think you were attacking?
and what do you think it came off as when you said "Don't talk to me about dedication and pay [...] You don't know jack shit about it, you never have and you never will"?
that was some personal shit, and it was ignorant, if that's the word for it. i actually don't think you were ignorant. i think you said it for another reason.
67 - roger nowosielski
... as you can readily surmise ...
of course, of course, but I needn't really correct my ellipticals, for the clarity of my thought and expression makes any such exercise redundant.
Ha ha!
68 - roger nowosielski
Well, zing, Glenn's connecting the idea of teaching, or being an artist, with pay, did indeed strike me as rather ignorant. Of course I did not know about Glenn's personal circumstances, about having foster kids or any of that. But even if I have been aware of those circumstances, his statement still would have struck me as odd and untrue.
Think of Virginia Woolf. Her only desire was to have a room of her own.
69 - roger nowosielski
See, zing, perhaps here lies the difference between you and I. You do know I get along very well with Cindy, not because I've met her in person (though we did in fact talk on the phone), but because I appreciate her ideas, her energy, her spunk, whether or not she's wrong. But this is where the similarity ends. If I think she's wrong, I'll be the first to tell her, and you know the risks this entails, Cindy being Cindy, of course. In all honestly, I don't think I would be Cindy's friend if I wouldn't tell her whenever I think she's wrong or has misjudged a situation or two. That's what true friendship means to me, speaking the truth, whatever the consequences.
Well, I'm not accusing anyone of anything now, let's make this clear, but it surely would be refreshing to see some of you guys being at odds at times, of only for the hell of it, if only for show.
Please surprise me!
70 - zingzing
"Think of Virginia Woolf. Her only desire was to have a room of her own."
no it wasn't. that's the title, yes... but her desires went far beyond that. she wanted free access to education for women, something you more or less maybe somewhat* belittled earlier on this thread. she wanted what amounted to revolutionary change, not four walls and a door.
"it surely would be refreshing to see some of you guys being at odds at times"
i'm sure we have been, particularly el b and me. jordan and i get along relatively peacefully, it seems. maybe i'm a canadian at heart, i dunno.
*i realize you weren't belittling education, or at least i realize you probably shouldn't, but you did plop in line with the anti-intellectuals on it up there. higher education is belittled by some of the conservatives in this country, and, even if it does lead someone towards the left, i don't think that should deter anyone, right or left, from seeking an education. it may be that universities are more leftist than the rest of the country, but if that's what education leads you to, so what? education does not equal intelligence, that's for sure, but i'd hope you aren't against it.
71 - roger nowosielski
Anyway, zing, gonna go back to watching my movies on Hulu Plus. If you haven't tried it yet, you don't know what you're missing. You can try a free subscription for a week, what have you got to lose?
Hope to continue this conversation tomorrow, on an even keel.
72 - zingzing
dude. hulu is not the place to go, plus you have to pay for it. don't want to give anything away, but there's this one channel (numeral no space channel dot ch) that lets you watch whatever you want. putlocker is my favorite provider, but there are more. anything. it's almost perfect.
73 - roger nowosielski
Did you really think I was against education? Seriously?
And I don't think we should bicker about true desires of Virginia, bless her heart, whether met or unmet. But a "room of her own" was definitely only of them; and I can surely identify with this as an author and a writer. To many people, it's all they ever had. And frankly, that's all I need, with a view or without.
But anyway, I don't want to end this session in disagreement. Talk to you tomorrow.
74 - roger nowosielski
I don't mind paying $7.95 a month. Fair pay for fair service, never had a problem with that.
Good night, my man.
75 - zingzing
"Did you really think I was against education? Seriously?"
i made it clear i didn't think so.
"And I don't think we should bicker about true desires of Virginia, bless her heart, whether met or unmet."
they were met.
"I don't mind paying $7.95 a month"
foooooooool.