"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster." - Nietzsche
Not too many people these days will admit to having played Dungeons and Dragons to any great extent, regardless of the immense influence the game has had not only on gaming up to and including the best selling electronic games such as Modern Warfare and its sequel, but also on books, movies, and pop culture as a whole.…
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26 - Ruvy
Mark, the hypocrisy in this article and in your comments, and those of Glenn, Mr. Slater and Mr. Nowosielski are what is beyond the pale. And frankly, it is disgusting. Americans, savage murderers and killers, dare dare criticize us Israelis who have done our damnedest not to kill our killers more than we absolutely needed to survive? You dare do this? The disgusting animals in Hamas at least say they intend to kill us! You hypocritical Americans pretend to be friends while you stab us in the back!
That is why you are far worse enemies than any vicious Wahhabi scum. They are at least honest. You are liars. And you are savage killers as well. Before you dare point a finger at us, look in the mirror at the ugly beast who opens his mouth!
27 - Mark
Strategy, Rog?
Build a base of solidarity within our own indigenous and immigrant labor force...lead by example.
28 - roger nowosielski
Well, as Rorty argues, the Left has lost touch with the labor movement and the working class.
What good does Chomsky do except stirring out the activism?
So it does look like one has to work via political means. Just like a Tea Party has become a factor in today's politics, there is a need for the working class to start exerting its influence - not necessarily in the polling booth but by way of public opinion, together with intellectuals.
Organizations on the order of Amnesty International should serve as mobilizing centers.
29 - Mark
...have you hugged an 'illegal' today?
the Left has lost touch with the labor movement and the working class.
What left? Les is correct. Look to the immigrant workers for new ideas.
30 - Les Slater
Roger,
The biggest problem right now is the lack of clarity. I responded elsewhere, to Silas maybe, that before we arm ourselves with guns, perhaps we might learn which way to point them first.
The same is true of politics in general. Before we start making demands we better be clear. There was not only no working class at the protest, there were no coherent ideas. Deep down a lot of was anti Jewish.
One thing you might think about is during anti-war protests in Europe, Canada and elsewhere there was a lot of anti U.S. sentiment. This took the heat off their own governments who were also involved in the wars.
We can not hold the likes of Hamas up as heroes. We can not praise Turkey for its role.
We not only have to understand the issues ourselves but we must start participating in these movements and call them on these issues. More importantly we need to bring these issues to the working class. We need to educate ourselves along with our class. Only then will our demands and actions begin to move us toward victory.
31 - Ruvy
This is the proper way to deal with Arab terror. Arabs attack - shoot back. The same goes for the American and European leftists who come here to incite violence. When they come upon us, we should shoot - to kill. That way, the leftist trash will think twice before trying to intervene in another country's affairs. All of the scummy kids who come here as useful idiots of the Wahhabi terrorists should be shot at.
Sow the wind - reap the whirlwind.
As for the Turks, they had better watch their mouths and be careful of the bad Turkish words they utter. Demonstrations here can become far more violent than this one was, and Turkish loudmouths would be wise not to try our patience or violate our sovereignty again.
Sow the wind - reap the whirlwind.
32 - Ruvy
There was not only no working class at the protest, there were no coherent ideas. Deep down a lot of was anti Jewish.
We can not hold the likes of Hamas up as heroes. We can not praise Turkey for its role.
For the most part, I find your analyses of foreign policy lacking, Les. But you have a moral honesty that I wish I saw in a lot of the other anti-Israel "commenters" on these threads. It's refreshing - even if in the final analysis, your point of view is faulty.
33 - roger nowosielski
Alright now. Can we take lessons from action against South Africa and the apartheid?
In what respects are the two different?
34 - Les Slater
There is much difference. South Africa had the ANC and the Freedom Charter. In the Middle East we have nothing.
Also, related to the downfall of apartheid was the presence of Cuban troops in Angola. The combination of Cuban and Angolan troops defeated the South African army in the battle of Cuito Cuanavale. This was modern warfare battle against troops with tactical nukes. The Cuban/Angolan forces built airstrips, antiaircraft batteries and supply lines as they pushed SA forces back to the boarder in retreat. The Cuban/Angolan force had air superiority.
Nelson Mandela said that if it weren't for the Cuban troops defeating SA army in Angola he would still be in jail and SA would still be apartheid SA.
35 - Les Slater
Ruvy, my point of view may be faulty, but I learn and am determined, through not just debate, but through action, to make this point of view not only less faulty but also more effective in guiding action.
36 - roger nowosielski
So what you're saying Les, in a manner of speaking, it all comes down to violence of sorts. Let the best man win.
37 - Les Slater
Not at all. A consciously revolutionary working class will alter all relationships. The ruling classes are but a minuscule layer. They can not produce anything. It is the ruling classes that might resort to violence when their backs are to the wall. It wouldn't necessarily take a whole lot of physical force to suppress them.
The idea of just duking it out in a protracted civil war is to be avoided.
38 - roger nowosielski
Well, good luck trying to convince Israelis who continue to perceive their situation in terms of self-defense.
It's a hell of a job trying to convince them as to who the real enemy is.
39 - Ruvy
A consciously revolutionary working class will alter all relationships. The ruling classes are but a minuscule layer. They can not produce anything. It is the ruling classes that might resort to violence when their backs are to the wall. It wouldn't necessarily take a whole lot of physical force to suppress them.
You really do not get, do you, Les? The reason your point of view is faulty is that it does not protect the person putting it forth - you.
To the rest of the world, Americans - like you - are the kulaks to be gotten rid of. Americans produce nothing and do the world the dubious favor of overconsuming and allowing children all of over the planet the privilege of going to bed achingly hungry every night. Who needs you all? Without you wasting their food, the rest of the world has a bigger share - and the way Americans waste, that share is a whole lot bigger. You Americans are the unnecessary passenger on the boat, the one who needs to be thrown overboard so the rest of the passengers can enjoy the ride.
Even homeless people in the States are obscenely rich and do not starve, I ought to know. I was once one of those homeless people. I know how rich they are compared to whole families who live their entire lives on sidewalks of Mumbai.
A "consciously revolutionary working class" will look at you and see "American pig". If they let you live at all, you will be a lot skinnier than you are, and will have to wait on long lines for food and everything else. Just like the poor slobs all over the world do. You can spout Marx, Hegel, Lenin, Bakunin and sing The Internationale till you turn blue. It won't do you any good under a "consciously revolutionary working class". That is the last thing you want to live to see.
40 - roger nowosielski
I'd still argue the immediate strategy that suggests itself is to blockade the state of Israel by the international community - to give them the dose of their own medicine.
It would go a long way, IMO, to change the Israeli mind.
41 - roger nowosielski
"The reason your point of view is faulty is that it does not protect the person putting it forth - you."
I would worry the least, Les, concerning this objection. A crucial part of taking a moral stance - something that Ruvy, for all his religious training and immersion in the holy books cannot possibly comprehend - is that one's eye is not centered on the self but some ideal of universal justice.
Only scoundrels invoke religion and morality in service of their own, narrowly defined self-interests. And Ruvy is an example par excellence.
42 - Les Slater
"The reason your point of view is faulty is that it does not protect the person putting it forth - you."
This betrays a serious fallacy in your perspective. It's ego. As I see it, your pointing at me reflects straight back at you.
I am living under the present conditions where I live. I think and act in those conditions. I make some difference, maybe not much, but some.
Where will I be in the future? Who knows? I'll do my best. I'm a citizen of time.
43 - roger nowosielski
That's what any human can possibly do - try to live according to their conscience.
44 - roger nowosielski
You're being unnecessarily tactful, Les, which is one reason, no doubt why you're still a gentleman in Ruvy's eyes. One only wonders for how long.
Well, I don't care for such honors. Besides, you're doing him a disservice by being polite. When you're dealing with cancer, you've got to cut. Mild remedies won't do.
What needs be said is that Ruvy's typical by now charges of hypocrisy are not only a smoke screen; more importantly, they're all ad hominem.
But then again, we can't hold Ruvy to usual standards of responsible speech. It's a condition.
45 - Les Slater
I may be tactful but did you notice in #42 that I said that his ego was getting in the way of his perception of reality.
46 - roger nowosielski
Right, but that's too deep a remark to hit home. You're giving him more dignity than he deserves.
A shock treatment is in order, not nice words. Of course, I'm speaking metaphorically.
47 - Les Slater
Ruvy, I have to admit a smile came to my face when reading your #39, especially your 'You really don't get it, do you Les?'. Your next utterance seems to imply some dependence on me. The perspective I put forth is an opinion. Whether it is true or not doesn't too much depend on any action or inaction by me. I act with many others. Plus or minus a few, including me, is not decisive.
I can only hope I have some effect on the unfolding of the future. I try. As time unfolds before us, the picture of the future, or should I say its possibilities and probabilities, will become more concrete. Our actions will be further tuned to this unfolding.
48 - roger nowosielski
"Your next utterance seems to imply some dependence on me."
An astute observation. In ordinary lingo, it's called "projection."
49 - Les Slater
"In ordinary lingo, it's called 'projection.'"
In #42 I used "...reflects straight back at you."
50 - roger nowosielski
Well, yes then. No disagreement.
51 - Gregg Hale
Glenn,
do you know (of) any Dungeons and Dragons players who have far right politics? I am working on a story-building project utilizing some of the role-playing aspects of DnD and I'd LOVE to get some people with conservative views involved.
Thanks