I find it fascinating that some blacks aren't defended by the civil rights establishment or other advocacy groups if they do not happen to hew to a designated set of political positions, as if taking political positions outside of this designated dogma somehow renders them fair game for racism. It's rather astonishing and breathtakingly hypocritical, as pointed out by Project 21, "the national leadership network of conservative African-Americans":Over the past few months, and peaking this week with her appointment, cartoonists have been using Dr. Rice's race as a point of ridicule. Demeaning political cartoons by Pat Oliphant and Jeff Danziger accentuate Dr. Rice's black features and feature her speaking in rural southern dialect. Garry Trudeau called her "Brown Sugar" in his "Doonesbury" comic strip. Earlier this year, cartoonist Ted Rall questioned Dr. Rice's race in a comic suggesting she was President Bush's "house nigga" and needed "racial re-education."…
Article comments
176 - RJ
Future News:
(01/30/09) WASHINGTON - President Hillary Clinton responded today to attacks on HHS nominee Al Sharpton from a conservative white blogger.
"Not since Jim Crow have we witnessed such a patently racist attack made so very publicly and unapologetically. This type of hateful rhetoric must end, even if legislation is required to do so."
President Clinton was referring to a cartoon that has been circling the blogosphere of late. It depicts the Rev. Al Sharpton calling Jewish Americans "bloodsuckers" and "Jew bastards." The Rev. is pictured with a broad nose and very dark skin tone.
The NAACP immediately denounced the cartoon.
"There is nothing at all funny about some right-wing white boy drawing a vile, racist caricature of a proud African-American," said NAACP Chairperson Julian Bond. "And the very fact that so many right-wing white bloggers have linked to this evil depiction of a black civil-rights leader just goes to show you how far we still have to come."
Defeated Republican Presidential candidate Condi Rice was unavailable for comment at press time.
177 - andy marsh
RJ - my question to you is...are you taking art classes right now?
Will that be YOUR cartoon in '09?
It shouldn't matter, I mean, it will only be a caricature!
178 - P6
Andy:
Don't tell me you see no similarity between Bush's positions and policies and those supported by Keyes and Buchanan. They just support the positions with different arguments.
How could you think I'd find it an improvent that she actually believes all that crap? I'm trying to give her credit for being a loyal employee.
179 - P6
dwshelf:
When these nebulous "some" post a comment, I'll respond.
180 - andy marsh
P6 - I think that Keyes and Buchanan represent the fringe of the right. Sure they support some of the policies trumpetted by the right, but Buchanan is basically an isolationist and Keyes is just plain crazy!
181 - P6
Policies, man, policies.
If I knew nothing of Buchanan and Bush but the policies the espouse, would I think they agree?
182 - andy marsh
On some issues I'm sure they would.
I think you're trying to do the same thing that probably won Bush the election. It's like lumping Teddy Kennedy together with all democrats. I was just up in Boston and I was not able to locate a single person that admits to voting for Kennedy.
You can take the most liberal side of the democratic party and still find plenty of issues that a moderate democrat would agree are good issues. That's why they are called extreme, they tend to take shit to far!
183 - P6
Yeah, kinda. Not a serious effort, just a gesture to show it can be done.
184 - dwshelf
Rice's postions are far closer to Bush's (who is obviously electable) than they are to those of Buchanan or Keyes (who are not electable).
Maybe it's a bit of wishful thinking. I see in Rice all the good things I see in Bush, and I don't see any of the bad things. Reality, as revealed by time, could be different.
Buchanan is no Ted Kennedy. He's a Jesse Jackson. A person with a real national constituency, but lacking even modestly broad national appeal. Keyes is, in a word, shrill. He comes off as anti-intellectual, which doesn't appeal to any but the choir.
Ms. Rice could disappoint us by materializing like that, but the early indications are not even close.
185 - P6
Hey, some people voted for Nader.
186 - dwshelf
Hey, some people voted for Nader.
That's me. Republicans for Nader. I did vote for Nader.
By the definition of some, dropping feelings of racial hostility and fear is the essence of Tommin.
When these nebulous "some" post a comment, I'll respond.
I'm not surprised p6, that you yourself reject this definition. You wouldn't be here otherwise.
Further, I'll agree with you, very few people would agree to this definition as being their own.
On the other hand, the observation is that a lot of people slinging around "Uncle Tom" feel no requirement to distance themselves from this definition. They imply that evidence that someone black has a normalized relationship with whites is sufficient to validate the slur as something other than a slur.
Others would cautiously qualify "whites" as "powerful whites", as if that really made any difference.
In the end, we're mortal, highly imperfect people sharing an experience in time. We should enjoy each other's company before we die.
187 - P6
It's so far from anyone's meaning there's no need.
That's your interpretation. They imply no such thing.
Against my better judgement I'm drop this clue: "you think you're white" doesn't mean "you have no idea you're a Black American."
188 - Cobra
DWShelf writes:
>>>They imply that evidence that someone black has a normalized relationship with whites is sufficient to validate the slur as something other than a slur."
Again, I disagree. "Normalization" has nothing to do with it. Common courtesy, manners and ettiquette doesn't make a person a "Tom." Relating to somebody in a civil manner doesn't make a person a "Tom."
In my opinion, it's conscious currying of favor...boot-licking self-immolation for higher reward or status.
Whether it be a conscious acknowledgement of racial inferiority, or a machiaivellian minstrel show, most examples of Tommin' are far beyond a simple "lack of hostillity", and highly abominable. Outside of a life-threating situation, say violent criminal confrontation, hostage crisis, or occupation/insurgency, tommin' nothing less than mercenary cowardice.
I hope that clears up my position.
--Cobra
189 - Eric Olsen
okay, thanks for the definition - where do Powell and Rice fit into this picture then?
190 - P6
Well, as I said, I don't think I've heard Dr. Rice at all.
I remember these old submarine war movies where the captain would give an order and a guy would repeat the order into a microphone. They followed the orders of the guy on the mike but he really didn't exist, functionally. He was just The Voice of the Captain.
Dr. Rice is just The Voice of Bush.
As for Powell, it's my observation most Black folks see him more as a soldier than a Tom. Most that are angry at Rice are disappointed in Powell.
The movie "Amistad" was greatly anticipated in the Black communities, and was a great disappointment because people went looking for an African hero and got an American President instead. This is the same disappointment people have in Powell.
191 - dwshelf
Cobra writes:
Again, I disagree. "Normalization" has nothing to do with it. Common courtesy, manners and ettiquette doesn't make a person a "Tom." Relating to somebody in a civil manner doesn't make a person a "Tom."
In my opinion, it's conscious currying of favor...boot-licking self-immolation for higher reward or status.
That sounds disgusting.
I have no personal observation of such behavior ever. I don't doubt that it's occurred, but surely it's uncommon.
By this definition, any application to Powell or Rice is a pure slur.
But to tie things up a bit Cobra, by "normalization" I was suggesting more than politeness. I was suggesting willingness to work with whites in various business roles, including employee. The willingness to derive pleasure from the company of whites.
192 - dwshelf
They imply that evidence that someone black has a normalized relationship with whites is sufficient to validate the slur as something other than a slur.
That's your interpretation. They imply no such thing.
When someone applies this term to either Rice or Powell, and supplies not the slightest hint of anything in Cobra's definition, what are they implying?
Even if, as you seem to believe, she's a brainless twit lucky to be employed at all, but found this well paying job passing on messages from the chief, there's nothing in that which was covered by Cobra's definition.
Nor have you suggested that she's a Tom. But others have, and not just the current cartoonists under discussion. That's the "nebulous some" I refer to.
193 - P6
You can't be serious.
It is so all about white folks.
When in the entire history of the Children of Africa's presence on this continent has this not been demonstrated? I mean, setting aside that whole unfortunate slavery thing.
194 - Cobra
Dwshelf writes:
>>>I have no personal observation of such behavior ever. I don't doubt that it's occurred, but surely it's uncommon."
C'mon now. Let's be realistic here. 36% of the population (white males) controls the VAST majority of the wealth, land and leadership positions in America. This was no "happy accident." People from all non-white groups learned pretty fast the rules of engagement from the outset, and which group to kiss up to. You're going to tell me you've never come across "yes men" in your life? Office suck ups? Teacher's pets? Uncle Toms are the interracial version on 'roids, and you can see it Hispanic, Asian, Pacific Islander and all other ethnicities here.
That being said, I would love to see Condi Rice in a detailed discussion on social issues, especially concerning race, by a SKILLED interviewer not involved with the Fox News channel. I watched her twist uncomfortably like a licorice whip when Russert called her on Bush's Affirmative Action policies last year. Then I think we can fianlly evaluate this black neo-con's motivations.
>>>I was suggesting willingness to work with whites in various business roles, including employee. The willingness to derive pleasure from the company of whites."
Working with, for, and/or becoming friends with white people doesn't make somebody a "Tom", IMHO. That someone's life holds less value bereft of those things, however, is a thought process far along the road to Tomdom.
--Cobra
195 - P6
Comment 190.
And for the record I acknowledge Dr. Rice is brilliant. This isn't about that. To me, this discussion isn't about Gen. Powell or Dr. Rice at all. They are specific examples that present the chance to expose a concept here and there.
Let me disrupt your entire world view. There are liberal Toms. Black people who identify more with party and purse than people. No I will not name them, and no, you shouldn't speculate. They are extremely rare in comparison to those on the Right the job openings for Black folks on the Right have very few parallels on the Left so there's less outside impetus to make such a choice.
196 - P6
You know what y'all need? You need more than politeness. You should be willing to work with Black Americans in various business roles, including employee. You need the willingness to derive pleasure from the company of Black Americans.
197 - andy marsh
P6 - it would seem to me that it is about Dr. Rice and Gen. Powell for this simple reason.
Since there would appear to be many more minorities in the democratic party than in the republican party then it would also be logical that there should be many more qualified minority candidates to choose from for posts such as Sec of State and National Security Advisor. Why is it then that it has ONLY happened under a conservative White House? And why is it that the 2 people we have been speaking of are considered lesser minorities because of it?
The one question that I have yet to see answered here is why is it ok for a radio personality to slur a republican minority? There would be outrage from the left for the same type of slur used on a democratic minority. But I guess it's like I said before, if you agree with the slur, then it's not a slur...sort of like how stereotypes become stereotypes?
198 - dwshelf
You're going to tell me you've never come across "yes men" in your life?
Yes, of course. But it had nothing to do with race. It had to do with pursuit of power and/or money.
If a black man were a yes man to a white boss, would that make him a Tom?
199 - dwshelf
You know what y'all need? You need more than politeness. You should be willing to work with Black Americans in various business roles, including employee. You need the willingness to derive pleasure from the company of Black Americans.
I derive pleasure from your reaction, p6.
200 - andy marsh
You hiring P6?
201 - Cobra
dwshelf writes:
>>>If a black man were a yes man to a white boss, would that make him a Tom?"
That depends on what that black man was saying "yes" to.
--Cobra
202 - P6
Coincidentally, the one problem I've yet to see is some broad acceptance of racial slurs from radio personalities by the left.
How manty times to I have to respond the same way to different phrasings of the same baseless claim?
203 - andy marsh
Is everyone on this thread a politician? I have yet to see a straight answer once!
204 - P6
Whole other topic. I'm discussing Black people's reactions. You's discussing sea foam.
205 - P6
What have I not answered directly?
206 - P6
But I'll answer your sea foam.
Black people have only been legally free since 1964. Takes time, and it had to happen somewhere first. Bush's need for legitimacy during his first run and the Republican Party's need to put a moderate face on extremist positions (and you know damn well that what your last two Presidential conventions were about) coincided. You'll note that Dr. Rice was literally among the first to benefit and suffer from integration as a social tool. And General Powell took no political position at all until he decided he could be the voice of moderation for Bush.
207 - andy marsh
what exactly is sea foam...keep in mind that I'm from the beach and I was in the navy for 20 years!
208 - P6
Fleeting surface manifestations
209 - P6
And what have I not answered directly?
210 - andy marsh
So then tell me if I'm getting this right...if it doesn't bother most black people then I shouldn't get my panties in a wad about it? That seems to be the gist of this whole thing.
211 - dwshelf
I was suggesting more than politeness. I was suggesting willingness to work with whites in various business roles, including employee. The willingness to derive pleasure from the company of whites.
When in the entire history of the Children of Africa's presence on this continent has this not been demonstrated?
Let's make sure the context is clear. The question regards whether behavior as I suggest is evidence of "Tommin", not that it's unusual.
Further more, I think we all understand that it was offered not as a sincere definition, but rather a ridiculous definition that some seem to be using. It's those nebulous some again who are the target of this argument.
Those nebulous some who feel free to claim that Rice or Powell are a discredit to their race because ... well because they get along too well with powerful whites.
212 - P6
Truth be told, what I've gotten from it is all the discussion about Black folks' behavior is actually about white folks' comfort and power.
This time you get no direct answer because it has no bearing on what white folks have to do to hold up their end of solving the problem.
213 - P6
Yet you approach me as though I need to answer for the interpretation you have made.
Sorry. Not the case.
214 - andy marsh
Hey I'm comfortable and I have no power!
I personally hold up my end of solving the problem by not using terms I believe would be construed as racist.
I don't know what else I as one person can do. I have tried to raise my daughters to be as color blind as possible.
What else is expected of me as a white male in this world where I have all the advantages?
I personally believe that the things I've heard said about Rice and Powell are racist. The original question asked was why doesn't anyone else see it that way? Why doesn't the main stream media beat up on people like they do when an asshole like limbaugh or jimmy the greek say the stupid shit they say.
I mean, let's be real here, stupid shit is stupid shit. Now if you want to come right out and say that Powell and Rice are Uncle Tom and Aunt Jemima then go ahead and say it! Other wise call it like it is RACIST!
We've beat around the bush for who knows how many days on this stupid shit. And only a few have admitted that calling a black person uncle tom or aunt jemima is a racial slur. The only thing I'm getting out of it is that it's ok if you don't agree with the persons politics and that's straight up bullshit! If you personally believe that the term fits then go ahead and use it?
The way it was said by the radio personality that said it was as a slur and as such it's wrong.
But if the term isn't racial then let me know so the next time I use it and some really pissed of black person attempts to kick my ass I can tell them that you told me it wasn't a racial slur because I really believe that about the person!
215 - Big Time Patriot
I am tired of the double standards when it comes to double standards.
Everyone has a certain degree of double standards, but when it applies to someone ELSES double standards people have a double standard about that.
My big question, does that make it TRIPLE standards or does it become QUADRUPLE standards when speaking about the double standards of others?
216 - Eric Olsen
that is a question for the Bureau of Standards
217 - JR
that is a question for the Bureau of Standards
It's the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) now.
218 - Eric Olsen
well then it would have been a question for the Bureau of Standards
219 - andy marsh
Now we're back to the same old standard answers!
220 - P6
As I said Andy, you focus too much on the personal, and therefore least important, aspects of race in America.
If you think it's okay, the repercussions of what you do based on that understanding are on you.