See the hypocrisy yet?
So, the vast majority of comments from my first Do We Have the Right post seemed to indicate that you all thought that our glorious country had the right and the obligation to go into, and mess with, the system in Iran. Though I disagree with the logic behind this (being a student of poli-sci and all), I want to go ahead and harbor that thought and idea and extrapolate a bit, if you let me.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Dave Nalle
Sovereignty is only as good as the government claiming it. If Robert Mugabe or Lil Kim start whining about their precious sovereignty no one takes them terribly seriously because their governments lack the legitimacy necessary to qualify as the guardian of their sovereignty.
Nations and people have a right to sovereignty, but an illegitimate government which doesn't really represent the best interests of those people can't claim protection on that basis.
Dave
27 - roger nowosielski
Like any kind of right, the right of sovereignty is subject to restrictions/limitations. It's not absolute.
28 - Dave Nalle
Michael, a lot of the time people see what they expect to see or ignore those comments which don't fit with their expectations. Robert B. may be getting input from other sources which has convinced him that we're all gung-ho to go invade Iran and build democracy there. Or perhaps he doesn't see that there is a difference between Americans very much wanting regime change in Iran and Americans being willing to impose that regime change on the country by force.
Dave
29 - roger nowosielski
How could you possibly attribute such narrow-mindedness to anyone who bills themselves as "a student of polysci and all"?
Shame on you, Dave!
30 - Clavos
Shouldn't it be polisci?
"Political" is not spelled with a "y."
Who edited this article??? :>)
31 - Dan(Miller)
I think "polysci" refers to "many sciences;" perhaps astrology, feng shui, philosophy, economics, that sort of thing.
Dan(Miller)
32 - roger nowosielski
Nice touch. But please, keep philosophy out of it, Don't give it a bad name. Unless it be A New Age Philosophy or some such hybrid.
33 - Ruvy
don't try to insult me
We don't have to try to insult you, Robert. You manage a credible job of insulting yourself all by your lonesome without our help. But, since you raise th topic....
Israel " ignoring the fact that the only reason we like this country is that it is needed for the Apocalypse, the government is removing and destroying an entire people....
Apocalypse, Robert? I thought you were a Jew! Jews don't talk about the "Apolcalypse", Christians do. Jews talk about the "War of Gog and Magog". Maybe you better redo that bar mitzva, there, Robert. You're managing to miss a whole lot of Jewish knowledge.
Israel " the government is removing and destroying an entire people....
I don't remember the GOI (government of Israel - goy for short) destroying any Arab settlements lately. But of course, you will quote all those self-hating "Jews" who say otherwise - in spite of the facts on the ground.
I'm sorry, Robert. You may be approaching graduation, but your writing is distinctly sophomoric. The only trouble with the internet is that kids like you write on topics they have no understanding of - and get away with it!
34 - roger nowosielski
But Ruvy.
He must have gotten an "A" for the paper in the Polysci department. And that's a credential.
35 - roger nowosielski
What I do find ridiculous is the tenor. Even undergraduate papers in any respectable institution of higher learning had to go beyond mere opinion and present if only a semblance of the argument. There is none of it here. I would have thought that Ohio State subscribed to higher standards.
But I'm talking of the sixties and the seventies. Things must have changed since, except for the athletic department.
36 - Dan(Miller)
Roger, re Comments #31 and 32 --
Oh, OK. Have it your way. Let's substitute "international law" for "philosophy." Come to think of it, how about "education?"
Dan(Miller)
37 - STM
Dan: "I think "polysci" refers to "many sciences;" perhaps astrology, feng shui, philosophy, economics, that sort of thing."
It used to have a basket-weaving section too.
38 - roger nowosielski
Home economics should cover it all.
39 - Clavos
Hire a college kid now, while he still knows everything...
40 - roger nowosielski
I'll never forget one of my instructor's complaints - about the kids being too smart to learn.
41 - STM
Gen Y are pretty good ... forget that old-fashioned notion of starting at the bottom.
Hell no. "After I've done 10 minutes of filing, I'll be ready to do the job that took you 35 years to learn".
"Plus I want twice the money".
Clav, if you want a laugh, go to my blog and check out the latest political scandal erupting Down Under: Ute-gate (pronounced: Yoot-gate, and roughly translated as Pick-up-gate).
It involves the PM, the Treasurer, and a mate of theirs who is a car dealer.
It's a hoot. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.
Only in Oz could this happen.
I'm only suggesting you might want to have a look because at least you understand 'Strine.
42 - STM
Robert: "Italy " The Roma people are persecuted and banned from several public places".
That wouldn't be because they're renowned as a pack of tea leaves, would it???
Rome means pretty rich pickings in all those public places full of tourists with nice fat wallets, passports and credit cards.
Unfair to all Roma, granted, as not all are thieves - but on the balance of probabilities, without knowing them I wouldn't be letting them through my front door either.
This is the price people pay for doing stuff that's a bit naughty.
43 - irene wagner
"What is a YOOT?" ---Fred Gwyn as the judge in My Cousin Vinny
I thought Robert was a yoot, not a pick-up.
44 - irene wagner
Yoot=Youth, if you're from Brooklyn.
45 - roger nowosielski
a yoot with a head on his shoulders
46 - Cindy
Dan(Miller) #31... lol
47 - STM
A "yoot" is Australian for pick-up truck.
As in Ute. Short for Utility.
48 - Dr Dreadful
Not as in The People That Used To Call Utah Home Before The Mormons Moved In?
49 - STM
Doc: "Not as in The People That Used To Call Utah Home Before The Mormons Moved In?"
Lol.
Doc, Kevvie's in a bit of strife over a banged up ute given to his campaign team by a BrisVegas car dealer to cart election signage around during the Kevin '07 federal poll.
It is the most bizarre erupting scandal I've ever seen.
Basically, there's a mob run by Treasury called OzCar, which has $2bn in funds to provide credit for the motor vehicle industry during the GFC.
The claim is that Kev and the treasurer tried to use their influence to help the car dealer ... at the same meeting Ford Credit was asking for $500 million in taxpayer dollars.
It's a hoot - but heads could roll.
50 - irene wagner
A hoot then, not a yoot. I'm leaving! LOLs to all.
51 - Robert M. Barga
@17-18
Right on Jeannie
52 - Robert M. Barga
@19
i am only a minor, and we say the MW trumps as it is american english
in polisci we say the OED trumps for historical usage
53 - Robert M. Barga
@20
i know it is semantics, yet every book i have read, and i am an American focus, clearly indicated that we were not a Democracy
54 - Robert M. Barga
@22
1) what country is going to ask for the oversight
2) who is going to have to fund/provide troops for all of it
3) what right does the UN or the oversight body have
55 - Robert M. Barga
@26
then why do we recognize most countries in the world, as most dont have leaders they consent to
our for that matter, when congress is 32% approved, are we ligitamite?
56 - Robert M. Barga
@all of you
i am Dyslexic (horrible word choice for the disorder, by the way), so i do mispell quite often
57 - Robert M. Barga
@33
we = my country
the reason the religious right supports Israel with such drive is because they want it to cause the Apocolypse (reading the new testament is a good idea)
Also, this is nothing like what i would turn in to a professor. An example of those are here.
58 - roger nowosielski
Well, Robert. Since you can write and research well, you should try to submit similar pieces here. We do have an intelligent audience on BC, in case you haven't noticed, and it won't be above our heads.
59 - Clavos
in polisci we say the OED trumps for historical usage
Well, polisci, which is a misnomer to begin with, there is no science in politics, you are trumped by the English scholars, who are the experts in linguistics and the English language.
60 - roger nowosielski
Well, it is a social science, Clav, in the same sense that sociology or economics is a social science.
Here's a listing of political science theories.
61 - Dan(Miller)
Wow! Just like Florida. It is horrible that the same sort of thing happens so often in the United States! Iran is a bastion of freedom, happiness and fairness; no matter what all those silly Iranians being jailed, injured and killed for protesting may think. President Obama should just shut the @#$*&$ up and go help his wife in the White House vegetable garden.
Dan(Miller)
Opps. Time for my meds.
62 - roger nowosielski
Well, that's the price you pay for the state of incommunicado between nations.
But heck, even with Republic of China there's little that the US appears able to do by way of objecting to human rights violations - because of the trade policy and other state matters.
I'd seem that our complicity, on the one hand, and ineptness on the other, has effectively tied our hands behind our back.
63 - Dan(Miller)
I don't know what "incommunicado" has to do with the situation. My take is that President Obama has shrugged and voted "Present!"
I understand the tactic of keeping options open. I also understand the necessity to conserve resources until they can be used most effectively. As to the present situation in Iran, I think that now is the time to select from the various options. He can't do it yesterday or a couple of days ago. He can do it now. I also think that failing to come vigorously to the defense of those in Iran who desire some of the freedoms enjoyed in the United States -- and are expending their blood to achieve them -- is a very bad mistake. President Obama doesn't need to send in troops; he doesn't even need to ask the U.N. to impose sanctions. He should, however, as the principal spokesman for the United States, make clear the disgust felt in the United States for the actions of the Iranian Government. If he shares that disgust, he should make that clear as well. He should not simply declare that "the world is watching." He is not President of the World; he is the President of the United States.
I hope that He hasn't missed the chance to do so, effectively.
Dan(Miller)
64 - roger nowosielski
As I commented on Clavos's new article, just posted, it's nothing but a gesture. A paper tiger.
We should have been thinking about our friends and enemies all along, before committing to Iraq. Parts of Iran were always pro-democratic. But no. Bush and Rumsfeld and Cheney had other plans.
Now we're paying the price of a failed foreign policy.
65 - roger nowosielski
And what "incommunicado" means should be fairly obvious. If you have a relationship with a person or a nation, you can do something. But when you don't, your options are severely limited.
We couldn't even get to square one with Iran in the matter of their nuclear program. So why do you suppose we can fare any better in the present case.
The sins of the past are indeed coming back to haunt us and bite us in the ass. But you're expecting some kind of a miracle all of a sudden. It just doesn't happen.
66 - Dan(Miller)
Roger, President Obama has been in office for five months. During that time, he has sought to change the world's perceptions of the United States. I think he has been successful to some extent, although I don't think that he has managed to change them much for the better.
You may be right in contending that Now we're paying the price of a failed foreign policy. Still, and perhaps as a result of the changes President Obama has made, the opposition leader in Iran, and those supporting him, have sought some degree of support from the United States, and President Obama has thus far not gone out of his way to offer it.
If the vision President Obama has of the United States is that she is a failed nation, with no room even to offer moral support to those who seek some of the freedoms still available in the United States, then I see very little hope for the United States.
Dan(Miller)
67 - roger nowosielski
Dan,
You can't undo years of damage in five months. You should know better than that. Not to mention the fact that the Iraqi conflicts fuels the Iran-US relationship. Yes, something's got to be done, but taking a strong moral stance ain't going to fly. Not if there are no plans for the follow-up.
68 - Cindy
Food for thought:
Deaths confirmed in Iran unrest
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, criticised foreign governments, and specifically the United States and the UK, for seeking to "interfere" in the crisis.
"Definitely by hasty remarks you will not be placed in the circle of friendship with the Iranian nation," the ISNA news agency quoted the president as saying on Sunday.
"Therefore, I advise you to correct your interfering stances."
(snip)
Barack Obama, the US president, urged Tehran to allow Mousavi's supporters to stage peaceful protests and called for an end to the violence.
"The Iranian government must understand that the world is watching," he said.
"We mourn each and every innocent life that is lost. We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people."
69 - Dave Nalle
Ahmedinejad seems not to grasp that the "circle of friendship" of the Iranian nation may not inolude him.
Dave
70 - Cindy
Ahmedinejad seems not to grasp that the "circle of friendship" of the Iranian nation may not include him. - Dave
Well said.
71 - Robert M. Barga
@58
there is litte to research here. THe clear thing is that we know nothing, yet are trying to act on that lack of knowledge
more on this in part 3
72 - Robert M. Barga
@61
dont think that we are imune to this sort of thing:
kent state
stonewall
civil war
new york riots
detroit riots
etc
73 - Robert M. Barga
@66
more on this in my next post, but there is a damn good reason Obama should do nothing
stop and think about how they would react for a second
74 - Clavos
It's only Iranians killing Iranians, no harm, no foul.
75 - STM
Robert: "more on this in part 3"
OK, something to look forward to, then ...