• A church that holds a biblically orthodox view of marriage and sexuality could lose its tax-exempt status as a result of the recognition of special rights for one sexual behavior. This claim is backed up by the example of a New Jersey church organization called the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, who lost tax-exempt status because they refused to allow a lesbian couple to marry in their wedding hall. Well, this is just not true. The church lost tax-exempt property status for the portion of their property that contains the wedding hall in question. It equaled about $175 a year that the organization will have to pay in taxes. While I don’t agree with it, private religious organizations should be allowed to discriminate against whoever they want. However, if they are getting government incentives, they are no longer private.
• Then there is the generic “it goes against god’s word” argument. I am not biblically schooled, and I am not trying to change anyone’s personal beliefs. But how would outlawing same-sex marriage really affect you? Would gay couples no longer exist? Of course not. They can still wear wedding rings, call each other spouse, and live as a married couple would. They just couldn’t visit each other in the hospital if one was gravely ill.
Same-sex rights is quickly becoming this generation’s civil rights movement. I know that racism, sadly, still exists in this country, but I like to think it has come a long way. Replace the gay couples with African-American couples. Do you think that African-Americans should not be allowed to marry? Do you think it should be illegal for an interracial couple to marry?
If you are in California, I urge you to vote NO on Prop 8. I know the language can be a bit confusing. Voting NO on Prop 8 means NO to outlawing same-sex marriage. Even if you personally do not agree with a same-sex lifestyle, are you comfortable making these people outlaws?
The article quoted here can be found at CitizenLink.org. For more info on Prop 8, please visit VoteNoOnProp8.com.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Dr Dreadful
As a permanent resident I can't vote, but my wife already sent in her postal ballot and voted No on 8.
I hope it fails, but it's going to be close. There are a lot of undecideds in the latest polls.
2 - Alyse
Thank you Mrs. Dreadful!
I honestly did not think it could pass, but I heard this morning that new polls have it inching towards yes, and I got scared!
3 - Dr Dreadful
I'll pass on your thanks to the missus...
And you're right that the arguments against same-sex marriage tend to be pretty feeble. I'm fine with someone who comes out and says that they don't agree with it because of their religious or personal beliefs: you have to respect the honesty of that. It's when they start trying to justify legislating against it that things get surreal.
In the face of a sustained and able challenge, the "keep marriage traditional" advocate will invariably retreat into logical knots of such breathtaking and impenetrable complexity that it's a wonder their minds don't snap with the sheer effort of keeping track of their arguments.
4 - Alyse
What is interesting is that I truly did not understand the reasons against it. So I asked a group of women I chat with online. Most do not live in California, and most are registered republicans, and considered themselves conservatives. Nearly everyone who answered my question said, "I don't get it either." Many of them even admitted to not believing that gay marriage was "moral," but no one understood why people feel the need to OUTLAW it.
5 - AlexT
There are plenty of sensible arguments in favor of Prop 8. You just have to read them with an open mind. The problem is that many people have already made up their minds and are not convinced by any opinion differing from their own. Try taking a look at the ones I've collected on my blog.
6 - V
Why is there a "yes" on prop 8 advertisement on the side????? 0_0. Talk about petty tactics!
7 - Alyse
@ AlexT - Please share with me at least one sensible argument. I looked at your website, and I found religious rhetoric and the belief that marriage must be defined as 1 man + 1 woman. But WHY? Why does it have to be defined that way?
8 - Dr Dreadful
V: The ads on the site are placed there automatically based on certain keywords in the article. The author does not necessarily (and in this case clearly doesn't!) agree with the ads.
So if, for example, you should happen to come across an article which argues that John McCain is a leprous bastard devil-child who should be flayed alive at the earliest opportunity, you shouldn't be at all surprised to see an ad in the sidebar from the Canonize John McCain Now Society.
9 - V
Wow, thanks DrDreadful. It seems to me that prop 8 supporters are so desperate as to do petty tactics to put their ads on places where it is clearly against them. How is that fairness, mature and even good? It seems to me as I've been reading blogs that these people come out post comments and links on blogs they disagree. Really? Are anti-gay people that desperate? I would've liked to see their time and MONEY on ending starvation in third world countries and rampart poverty. That is what Jesus would DO and DID. Better yet, blog about starvation and poverty instead of wasting their time trying to belittle a segment of the population for means I'm beginning to think makes them feel superior. And for the children? Where were they when the government cut funding to schools? Where were they when my old high school's library got shut down because of a lack of funding? Where were they when in this generation and thereafter gets old enough they will not receive social security? Where were they when kids drop out of high school and joined gangs during the 90s? For the children, my ass. They haven't done anything for children except treat them as a propaganda tool. If they really cared for children then make laws that actually help children. Fear breads Anger, Anger breads Hate and Hate, my friends, is an element of Evil.
10 - Dr Dreadful
To be fair, V, it would be a pretty boring world if only people who agreed with an article posted comments on it. I'm fairly certain that a large part of the rationale for posting a pro-Proposition 8 ad on an anti-Prop 8 article is that a fair number of anti-gay marriage folks will show up to read and disagree with the article.
11 - AlexT
@ Alyse: If you take a closer look at my blog posts you'll find at least 2 quotes that are secular based opinions.
12 - Denise
I would just like to point out that prop 8 would not take away rights or privileges from gay and lesbian domestic partners. Proposition 8 protects marriage and the important role of a traditional family. While death, divorce or other circumstances may prevent the ideal, the best situation for a child is to be raised by a married mother and father.
13 - Dr Dreadful
Proposition 8 protects marriage and the important role of a traditional family.
How exactly?
14 - El Bicho
I would just like to point out that marriage doesn't need to be protected.
15 - Holly
Marriage isn't simply about a relationship between two people. It is about the family that is formed from the marriage, which includes the children which are in the family or will be in the future. Gay marriage is bad for children. Only marriage between a man and a woman provides the kind of support that children need. Anything else is an untested social experiment.
16 - Jenny
I first and foremost believe there should be mutual respect for personal opinions and beliefs but I also strongly believe we have a responsibility to educate ourselves on the reality of the potential ramifications of voting No on Proposition 8. Please see this blog for the real legal debate.
Commenter #8: The aforementioned blog just might answer your question as to how voting "Yes" will protect the individual rights of parents and ultimately their children.
With all respect,
Jenny
17 - Dr Dreadful
So we should vote Yes because a new law might have unforeseen legal consequences?
Boy, that's never happened before.
Next.
18 - Gino
we can turn this around.
for years, the pro gay marriage side has spent untold hours,energy and money to push their agenda to redefine a simple english word.
imagine if all that money and energy where spent ending third world starvation and rampant poverty,instead.
that is what Jesus would do.
19 - Baritone
The defenders of Prop 8 bring up the same old doo doo over and over again.
"Gay marriage is bad for children. Only marriage between a man and a woman provides the kind of support that children need. Anything else is an untested social experiment.
Really? Where's your data on that one? That is stupidly presumptive. I know a number of gay and lesbian couples with children. They are, without exception far more involved and doting with their children than many hetero couples I know.
I won't even discuss the biblical crap.
I have published a number of articles here and elsewhere in support of gay rights, and especially the right of gays and lesbians to marry if they choose.
Most of the opposition comes down to a bunch of religious wackos who fear that allowing official sanctioning of gay relationships will take points off of their score card, thus harming their chances of getting a ticket on the Paradise Express. It is totally selfish and self serving, not to mention petty and obnoxious.
Hey, if some god actually exists and doesn't like gays, let himherit strike them down with a heavenly lightning bolt. Otherwise, all you folks who can't abide gays should just mind your own damn business. It's the 21st century for crap sake. Get your heads out of the old testament and wake up!
B
20 - Dr Dreadful
If it's simply a question of redefining a word, Gino, then why the ballot proposition? Why the mad scramble and hoo-ha?
If the redefining of a word is what matters, then what happened to the constitutional amendment to define the word gay?
Oh, that's right...
21 - Cannonshop
I don't think it's going to actually go anywhere-this is California, the land of fruits, nuts, and flakes. Prop 8's either going to completely and utterly tank on nov. 4th, or it's going to be overturned by the 9th Court in San Francisco.
Frankly, I'm amazed it got as far as the Ballot in California.
22 - Cannonshop
Besides, who could really be opposed to gay Divorce? Same-Sex couples should get to enjoy the same collection of horrors that hetero couples endure when they realize they can't stand one another. The increase in volume might even lower court-fees since divorce courts can charge fees based on volume-pricing! (and it surely would be amusing to see how DSHS type agencies deal with it when two mommies are fighting for custody-they can't just default to 'maternal custody and the father pays child-support'.)
These are Americans, after all-they should get to enjoy the same interference and harassment everyone else does.
23 - Dr Dreadful
The most recent poll shows a plurality in favor of the amendment, but the sample size was small. Most polls with a larger sample size have shown a plurality or majority against.
But I'm not sure the 9th will have authority to overturn it if it passes - that's the whole point. This might be going all the way to DC.
24 - Cannonshop
I still don't think it's likely to pass. for something like Prop 8 to pass, a LOT of libs would have to stay home, and a LOT of fundies would have to actually go to the polls and vote-a lot more, I think, than actually exist in that state. For conditions where something like Prop 8 to pass, California would have to be leaning toward Republican, and that's just not going to happen in a Presidential year.
25 - Doug Hunter
I see no fundamental difference between the arguments of gays and those of polygamists or even more extreme 'sexual deviants'. Although much of it is creepy to me I don't see any compelling reason to outlaw it. Then again, I don't see any 'logical' reason to stop someone from fucking a dead goat, just creepiness.
Note: I would definitely vote no on proposition 8 if given the opportunity. I think it's time to end this divisive nonsense and just let gays get married so we can get back to real issues.