Senator Dick Durbin from Illinois is an eloquent - if longwinded - fellow who is by no means the most unreasonable Democrat in the Senate. Sometimes he even makes some good points. But like far too many Democrats he needs to learn that when he's got a winning argument he should make his point and then shut up before he says something stupid which discredits everything else he said.
Speaking on the floor of the Senate this week, Durbin brought up some very relevant concerns about the nature and treatment of the prisoners at the Guantanamo Bay detention facility. He brought up issues raised by FBI agents stationed there who reported that they felt that some of the treatment of prisoners verged on torture, such as this comment he quoted from an FBI agent's report:
- "On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18–24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor."
Ok, that's not a pretty picture, and Durbin has a good point. He may have neglected to mention that these reports from FBI agents suggest that this sort of treatment is the exception rather than the rule, but even if it only happens occasionally, this is not the way Americans want to think of any prisoners we hold being treated.
Durbin also makes an excellent point towards the end of his speech when he points out that Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War and that the Supreme Court ruled that he had acted unconstitutionally, with the effective argument that
- "The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people, equally in war and in peace, and covers with the shield of its protection all classes of men, at all times, and under all circumstances. "
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - R. Fournier
Meanwhile:
Schiavo Autopsy Released: Brain Damage 'Was Irreversible'
No hope for Republicans either.
2 - Dave Nalle
Well that's an entire different festival of idiocy. Kind of like trying to see how many clowns can fit in a VW Bug.
Dave
3 - KC
"The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.""
Really at that point it doesn't matter HOW he says this isn't American--this is not what our country stands for, what matters is that he says it's wrong. He could tap it out in code and it won't matter. It's time to call a dirty dog an unwashed hound. Use whatever words fit, the only people who will be offended are those who want to ignore it.
4 - Dave Nalle
But the point is that saying it's wrong is just fine, but saying it's wrong AND on the same level as the gulags and killing fields and death ovens is so ridiculous that it puts his very judgement of right and wrong in doubt.
>>It's time to call a dirty dog an unwashed hound.<<
But is it time to call a dirty dog a rabid mankilling tiger?
Dave
5 - kathy
Oh, PUH-LEEZE! Since when did being an American mean we were lily-livered suckers who kowtow to "international opinion" because we just want to be friends with everyone? Since when is it our duty to molly-coddle the enemy ... people who have known terrorist affiliations, who hate us on principle, and who would celebrate killing any American or Jew they come across if only given the opportunity?
Good God, people! Do you really believe that the business of war was any different before the media had access to report everything as they do today?
Do you really believe that other countries, who have a more stringent control on their media, do the whole prisoner and torture thing better?
Tell me, Mr. Durbin -- what do you think the temperature inside the World Trade Center was when the airplanes blew up in them? That was the torture the terrorists created for innocent Americans.
How desperate and despairing do you think it feels to be going down in a plane that you KNOW is going to crash and that in seconds you're going to die? That was the torture the terrorists created for innocent Americans.
When our soldiers are sitting in full body armour in an unconditioned Humvee, and when it's 130 degrees outside, how uncomfortable do you think they are? That's torture, but one that heroes gladly endure for the cause of Country and Freedom.
When's the last time you think our soldiers had honey glazed chicken or other meals prepared fresh to honor and respect their religious diets? You really think our soldiers, if captured, would get their Bibles, be allowed to convene for religious services, and be made fresh meals to honor their religious beliefs?
We're at WAR, folks. People HATE us. Not because we make some prisoners shiver, but simply because we exist. They want us dead, they want us obliterated, they have condemned us to their interpretation of hell and would like to send us there.
This ain't the Miss America contest, where we just want to love everybody and have world peace. This is about demanding justice for 9/11, and for doing whatever it takes to get it.
When did we become a country of pussies?
Sheesh.
6 - Paul Roy
We need to send Jack Bauer down to Gitmo to get some "real" results, and quit coddling these terrorists! But seriously, when the next, even bigger, attack eventually happens, it will be these same bleeding-heart liberals that say we should have been doing more.
7 - Nancy
Good, Kathy. I have said before & repeat now: if we're going to fight a war, then for chrissakes, fight a war - and as far as the enemy is concerned, all's fair in war, so IMO we should take that tack, too. I'm tired of us having to play nicey-nice when we're dealing with scumbags trying to slaughter as many Americans (and other folks) as possible. I say wipe 'em out, pull out their nails, hold their parents & kids hostage, do whatever it takes to win. I'd rather have someone respect us & walk warily around us because they fear us. Goody Two-shoes be damned.
8 - Nancy
Even I, a rabid Bush-loather, agree this kind of hyperbole is self-defeating on Dem's part. I actually don't give a damn about these people's welfare or their so-called 'rights', in the past, now, or in the future. Our people sure as hell don't get the level of half-decent treatment these guys are getting.
9 - Al Barger
Gitmo is certainly not what America is about. We shouldn't be doing anything to make enemy prisoners uncomfortable. This clearly represents a violation of the US Constitution, which as we all know starts with the famous words "We represent the lollipop guild..."
10 - Nancy
The Constitution applies to citizens only; nowhere in it does it extend the benefits and privileges for citizens to foreigners, especially enemies, which is as it should be, or there would be no reason to be or become a citizen.
11 - Dave Nalle
Nancy, the principles of the Constitution are universal. As Americans we presumably believe in those principles, which really apply to all mankind. While we are certainly not legally obligated to respect all of the fundamental rights of the GITMO prisoners, if we really believe in their universality we ought to be magnanimous and grant them to them - or at least as many of them as we feel we can in reasonable safety.
Plus, these are to a large extent only suspected terrorists - people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. A number have already been released, so we might want to give some consideration to the rest under the concept of innocent until proven guilty.
dave
12 - andy marsh
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Care to show me where in the constitution is says anything about anyone that's not an American?
13 - Shark
*Kathy: "...People HATE us."
...I wonder why...
*Nancy: "...I say wipe 'em out, pull out their nails, hold their parents & kids hostage, do whatever it takes to win."
Glad to know my fellow Americans are advocating taking the Moral High Road.
* Where did these gals get their Testosterone?
14 - Georgio
Dave ..I have learned from reading your articles for some time now that you are very intelligent articulate and accurate on things you wish to talk about but to make Sen Durbin out to be an extremist is way out of line ..sure he made a statement that was very bold about it being like a Gulag so what..It sure as hell is not a place that America should be proud of and as Joe Biden said "It is an embarrassment to America"..and then you go on to say that maybe this is why the Democrats are in the minority..Let me remind you and I think you know this better than most that all politics are local...Durbin was elected by a huge majority in Illinois and will be elected again and again just as Barrack Obama will be..just to prove my point about local politics ...Sen Obama who most ppl think will go on to be President one day would never have been elected if not for a series of blunders by the Republicans and he would not even have been the Democrat candidate if not for the leading candidate haveing the bad luck of having a messy divorce..so all I am saying is national politics has nothing to do with the way politicians get to Washington..however some issues help them get elected such as the Social Security bill that Bush has given us as a gift..I think some Democrats will get elected to congress because they oppose this bill..
as for Nancy's statement I was very disappointed because I love the way she says it like it is but in this case it is just stupid to say we should pull their fingernails etc etc..how is that any better than the cutting off heads of ppl ..it's barbaric..period..This country has gone down the tubes for this kind of thinking and we can no longer say to Countries ..Look at us and embrace our Democracy our principles and morals because we have none left ..we have stooped so low with innocent blood on our hands that we are no better than anyone else and we can thank George Bush for that..
15 - Shark
DaveNalle: "They just plain miss the basic fact that hyperbolic hatemongering that may sound great at a moveon.org meeting just alienates the rational public who aren't hanging out in the patchouli-filled back rooms of the true believers."
IRONIC, given the ballsy, over-the-top, morally corrupt tirades from our resident wimmin speakers quoted above.
16 - Shark
BEARS REPEATING:
"...as for Nancy's statement... it is just stupid to say we should pull their fingernails etc etc.. how is that any better than the cutting off heads of ppl ..it's barbaric... This country has gone down the tubes for this kind of thinking and we can no longer say to Countries ..["]Look at us and embrace our Democracy our principles and morals because we have none left["]..."
"I love my country too much to be a nationalist." -- Camus
17 - Dave Nalle
>>I have learned from reading your articles for some time now that you are very intelligent articulate and accurate on things you wish to talk about but to make Sen Durbin out to be an extremist is way out of line ..sure he made a statement that was very bold about it being like a Gulag so what..It sure as hell is not a place that America should be proud of<<
I don't think I made Durbin out to be an extremist. That's exactly the problem. He's NOT an extremist, but he's let extremist rhetoric infect what was an otherwise fairly sensible speech. That's the problem I'm trying to point out. It's a problem for the whole Democratic partty, this tendancy to get carried away and say extreme and unsupportable things that nullify whatever good they were trying to accomplish.
Dave
18 - RJ
Democrats used to coddle criminals. You know, common thieves and rapists and murderers.
Now they coddle TERRORISTS!
Sad...
19 - Mark Saleski
no, what's really sad are the lame-ass cliches that are endlessly trotted out around here.
20 - Nancy
I'm not expressing myself well; I'm saying 'IF we go to war, THEN....' I guess my English isn't good enough to get across what I want to say, but I don't quite know how to say what I want to, because tone of voice, etc. doesn't come across online. If we are at war, then do it, get it over with, period. That doesn't necessarily entail torture, but it also doesn't extend to applying full citizenship rights to hostile aliens, or handling them with kid gloves, either. But that's not it. I seem to be digging myself in deeper. I will expound on my meaning when I can figure out exactly how to put it so it isn't misinterpreted. As to "girls' " testosterone, why are you so averse to women being aggressive when you men have been destroying innocent women & children as well as each other in the course of your macho games for millenia? Is aggression a male-only privilege or sport? You have heard that the female of the species is more deadly than the male, once she gets going? Take it to heart, guys. It's true.
21 - Paul Roy
Noooo, what is truly sad is just how much it is going to take for people to wake up. To make a national crisis out of a few isolated incedents of abuse at these prison camps is absurd. It is mind boggling some of the things we actually DO allow these prisoners (a prayer mat, Koran, and special sinks for feet washing for every prisoner, prayer blasted over the loudspeakers several times a day, special Muslim meals, etc. It wouldn't matter a bit how if we changed our foreign policy (one I don't often agree with, by the way) to one that is more to the Muslim world's liking. They still have their marching orders from the Koran. This war on terror has everything to do with Islam's war against the West.
22 - kc
"Our people sure as hell don't get the level of half-decent treatment these guys are getting." ---Nancy
Isn't that what we've always worked for, fought for, that we aren't the country that tolerates this? At what point do we become so much like the people we're fighting it makes no difference anymore who wins? You can call his statements hyperbolic all you want, but that's just shooting the messenger. There is a point when leaders need to stand up and bring these points into focus. The way they do so isn't as important as the facts themselves.
23 - Shark
NANCY: As to "girls' " testosterone, why are you so averse to women being aggressive when... men have been destroying innocent women & children as well as each other in the course of your macho games for millenia?"
I REST MY CASE.
(Think Lysistrada.)
24 - billy
way to go durbin, tell it like it is. who cares what republicans think they make up less than 1 in 4 americans. they are as much an enemy of the american people as osama bin laden. screw them and their feelings. they never serve and avoid war for themselves and their families at all costs. they talk a big game behind their computers but if they are upset too bad. get out of the country then if you dont like it.
25 - Georgio
Shark..at the risk of exposing my stupidity ....what did Camus mean when he said ...I love my country too much to be a nationalist." -- Camus
or better yet ....What do you mean ?