The Republic has cancer...and yes, it does look fatal.
Greetings, gentle Readers...…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Dems Cowardly Surrender 4th Amendment - Comments Page 2
The Republic has cancer...and yes, it does look fatal.
Greetings, gentle Readers...…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - troll
...hmmm - not even a veiled reference to the Option - ?
so what are you going to do about it...vote them out by voting more of them in - ?
Stan - it's positivist nalleisms like: *We won't at any stage in societies like ours be talking about holding people for years (the Guantanamo nonsense being the exception) but just a matter of weeks, or months at the most* that make me question your sanity
we're working without a net here - there's no guaranty that our fascist State will maintain its present 'soft' form
27 - Dave Nalle
Don't put that one on me, troll. A hypothetical 'nallism' would NOT include endorsing Guantanamo-style detention for US citizens under any circumstances. As I wrote early last year in Free the GITMO 500, I'm not even in favor of holding actual enemy combatants indefinitely.
And I do think that the point made earlier is a very good one. The minor abuses and power grabs of the current administration are indeed most dangerous because they will ultimately add power to a possible democrat administration, and while Republicans sometimes have the potential to be overenthusiastic in national defense and security, the democrats have the potential for genuine, full-on dictatoriship in the misguided interest of doing "the right thing" whether the people want it or not.
Oh, and the link to the FISA revision is now fixed.
Dave
28 - Dave Nalle
all i'm Asking is get a fucking warrant, provide oversight for what ANY Administration and it's appointees do...that's the problem here
And yet, despite seeing the problem, you still choose to take the partisan route and go after the pointless amendment rather than the democrat-authored law which is the actual source of the problem.
Dave
29 - Silver Surfer
Perhaps I'm viewing from the Australian point of view troll, where the restriction of our rights seems every bit as draconian in this regard - except, that for the police to keep holding you, a judge or magistrate has to keep approving it.
As has been shown here recently, a month is about the most that the public, the media and an independent judiciary will put up with before someone is set free unless charges are laid - despte the fact that the legislation is worded so that you could be held for a bloody long time..
They do use a thing called a control order, however, which restricts your movements but nominally allows a suspect some freedom. Another little trick to keep tabs on suspected terrorists.
Sometimes I wonder if comparing what goes on here compared to the US in terms of rights and liberties is badly flawed - and seemingly often weighted in our favour, to my surprise, despite most of the protections being at common law rather than under a constitution.
Perhaps in view of that I shouldn't even comment, as I don't really fear most of what our government does even when I don't like its political persuasion ... because I know, ultimately, people won't put up with it.
I may not like a lot of what they do, but I do see a healthy disrespect and a flouting of it all as being the saving grace - a nice two-fingered salute in their direction.
It's also what I'd always felt about America, and I'd like to think that's still true.
Don't disillusion me.
30 - troll
sorry Dave...I wasn't referring to the 'meat' of Stan's comment but rather the rosy 'motion' similar to many of your arguments
31 - Silver Surfer
Troll: "we're working without a net here - there's no guaranty that our fascist State will maintain its present 'soft' form"
You don't live in a fascist state troll. It's still a democracy (OK, then let's split hairs - a representative republic).
And if you'd only vote, and encourage others to vote, you could change a hell of a lot that you don't like.
32 - troll
Stan - we're using 'fascist' in different ways...as I see it there is no contradiction in a representative republic being fascist State
what matters is the amount of power vested in that State to control the behavior of its owner and worker bees
vote - ?
the only honest and meaningful vote I can cast is no vote
33 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
troll, Stan,
There is a reason I eschew labels to the degree I do. Whether the United States is a fascist country or not is irrelevant to the fact that American civil liberties are rapidly eroding away. The United States of America is sliding into a dictatorship - partly (but not entirely) because Americans are too damned apathetic to vote. The slide into dictatorship has been long and slow, and in many ways imperceptible to even the intelligent eye. Since most eyes are not necessarily intelligent, and since the corporate culture of the United States is devoted to dulling intelligence in favor of mindless consumption, most Americans do not perceive this slide, and will not until it is too late.
Stick to straight description for accurate portrayal.
34 - troll
Ruvy - actually...the fact that US government has the power to erode those liberties 'legally' is relevant and voting only serves to legitimize this status quo...some people even believe that the State has the power to tell them who to kill
...and I'll agree to stop using adjectives when you do
35 - Lumpy
Here's the question. Does congress passing this bill give Bush a free pass on his past misuse of the FISA system?
36 - gonzo marx
STM in #21 - fair dinkum, cobber...due process is all i'm asking for, eh?
@ #22 - here's the PDF to the final bill as was signed into Law.
"What's most significant here is the partisanship this article brings to the forefront, with its 'republicans are evil' mentality, and playing up this modification to a policy which originated in the Carter administration as if the changes were the problem rather than the original law itself."
did someone miss the title of the Article? or where i excoriated ANYONE that voted FOR this piece of shit, going so far as to list them?
a lot of my problem here is the shifting from having a Court approve a procedure beforehand, or within 72 hours of placing the tap, and this new set of provisions that set it at 120 days AFTER the tap...here's the opening bits of the legislation, spot the Clues...
" `Sec. 105B. (a) Notwithstanding any other law, the Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General, may for periods of up to one year authorize the acquisition of foreign intelligence information concerning persons reasonably believed to be outside the United States if the Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General determine, based on the information provided to them, that--
`(1) there are reasonable procedures in place for determining that the acquisition of foreign intelligence information under this section concerns persons reasonably believed to be located outside the United States, and such procedures will be subject to review of the Court pursuant to section 105C of this Act;
`(2) the acquisition does not constitute electronic surveillance;
`(3) the acquisition involves obtaining the foreign intelligence information from or with the assistance of a communications service provider, custodian, or other person (including any officer, employee, agent, or other specified person of such service provider, custodian, or other person) who has access to communications, either as they are transmitted or while they are stored, or equipment that is being or may be used to transmit or store such communications;
`(4) a significant purpose of the acquisition is to obtain foreign intelligence information; and
`(5) the minimization procedures to be used with respect to such acquisition activity meet the definition of minimization procedures under section 101(h).
`This determination shall be in the form of a written certification, under oath, supported as appropriate by affidavit of appropriate officials in the national security field occupying positions appointed by the President, by and with the consent of the Senate, or the Head of any Agency of the Intelligence Community, unless immediate action by the Government is required and time does not permit the preparation of a certification. In such a case, the determination of the Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General shall be reduced to a certification as soon as possible but in no event more than 72 hours after the determination is made."
did you catch how it's NOT up to a Judge any longer, but "certification under oath" by the AG and head of NSA...BOTH Administration employees, and thus members of the Executive
it may be a bit complicated for some, but my Objection is about ALL of this Power being placed solely into the Executive...read the rest of the Law, and compare it to FISA which is linked in the Article...
FISA had provisions of checks and balances, this new piece of shit has it so the Executive can report what they like...with NO chance to really check facts, just go by the AG and NSA say so
welcome to the American KGB, kiddies...
Doug in #25 - nope, nothing about determining an Enemy Combatant...still solely at the discretion of the Executive....see the Pattern here?
#26 for troll - i left out Jefferson's exhortation this time, but do note i blame ALL those who voted for this, and listed them....this was to demonstrate just how fucked our system is at this time...do i have a good Answer?
not yet, but neither political Gang are the solution, both have proven inept and cowardly as well as not concerned with protecting or upholding the Constitution...there ARE exceptions, but as a Rule..the Parties are straight fucked
not voting is not the Answer, imo..that merely allows them to do as they please...a "none of the above" movement for federal elections could go far...but DC needs a concrete enema, imo
@ # 27 which says - "The minor abuses and power grabs of the current administration are indeed most dangerous because they will ultimately add power to a possible democrat administration, and while Republicans sometimes have the potential to be overenthusiastic in national defense and security, the democrats have the potential for genuine, full-on dictatoriship in the misguided interest of doing "the right thing" whether the people want it or not."
now THAT is pure partisan spew...do note, gentle Readers, the difference between such as this example and what i typed...
@ #28 - "And yet, despite seeing the problem, you still choose to take the partisan route and go after the pointless amendment rather than the democrat-authored law which is the actual source of the problem."
you missed the part where Mitch McConnell is the fucking AUTHOR of the Bill, didn't you? Sen Bond (MO) was the co-sponsor...they are GOP< are they not? try getting the facts correct...rather than attempted spin
#29, the Surfer - hail Norrin Radd, my problem is that we are NOT standing up to all of this with the olde two fingered salute (or the American one finger "bird")...this is just slipping past most folks, and those we Elected to keep an eye on shit like this are being complicit in the very acts that should be shouted down completely, imo
as for voting, we DID vote, against all of this, but the people we voted in are failing miserably...more Parties are needed, perhaps...folks who will stand up rather than rush off to vacation
Lumpy in #35 - trying to figure that exact Question out...the original language did have built in pardons for past actions by everybody and removed the liability of the telecoms as well...still going over the language (i ain't a lawyer)...but it does look as if this temporary 6 month fix avoided any permanent exonerations...so far at least...
a hearty "thank you" to everyone for taking their time to stop by, and read...and comment...
don't get fooled again ...
Excelsior?
37 - bliffle
STM: "...And in these uncertain times, I say balance the ledger sheet a bit give investigators a bit ..."
Balancing the ledger would require going the other way, for example, revoking the underlying FISA law which has resulted in the admin keeping Padilla, a US citizen, jailed for 3 years. Oh, pardon me, Padilla, being a brown person is only sort of a provisional citizen, a status created for the ethical convenience of Recovering Racists.
38 - Dave Nalle
a lot of my problem here is the shifting from having a Court approve a procedure beforehand, or within 72 hours of placing the tap, and this new set of provisions that set it at 120 days AFTER the tap...here's the opening bits of the legislation, spot the Clues...
So violating our rights is fine with you so long as it's done quickly enough? Give me a break.
you missed the part where Mitch McConnell is the fucking AUTHOR of the Bill, didn't you? Sen Bond (MO) was the co-sponsor...they are GOP< are they not? try getting the facts correct...rather than attempted spin
And you miss the point that this bill is merely a modification of FISA and the rights violations which you're screaming about originate in FISA.
Dave
39 - handyguy
This bill expires in six months, and Pelosi has promised to revisit it even earlier than that. We'll see.
As the NY Times pointed out this morning, it's one thing to be afraid of terrorism, but the Dems voting for this terrible bill were mostly demonstrating their fear of Republicans...fear that a vote against it would enable the GOP to paint them once again as soft on terrorism [aka The Big Lie].
40 - gonzo marx
@ #38 - which quotes me and says -
" 'a lot of my problem here is the shifting from having a Court approve a procedure beforehand, or within 72 hours of placing the tap, and this new set of provisions that set it at 120 days AFTER the tap...here's the opening bits of the legislation, spot the Clues...'
So violating our rights is fine with you so long as it's done quickly enough? Give me a break."
it's having a Judge see it, it's about having Records of everything that are generated and looked at by the other two branches of Government...NOT just the Exectutive
try this link for a good overview of what's gone on...and why, as well as some of the concerns and ramification from this Law passing...CNET is the source...and something everyone should look over, follow the interior links...
and make up their own Minds
but i'll stick with what i've said ...ANYONE involved in the writing, passing or signing of this atrocity into Law are traitors to their Oaths of Office
my one sixth billionths of the World's opinion
Excelsior?
41 - Iron Duke
People like to be safe. And the congress is right when it assumes that most Americans don't care what is done to terrorists or even suspected terrorists. Like a lot of the things which people object to about the current administration, this is something which most people are confident will never apply to them. They're not calling people in Saudi Arabia and those who are don't make up a big enough voting block to get the attention of anyone in congress.
42 - gonzo marx
as the Record has proven, it's NOT just the folks calling overseas that have to be concerned...THAT is a big part of the Problem, imo
but Iron Duke correctly points out that since most folks don't think this applies to them, or are too busy with their lives to notice what has been done to our Republic...the Outrage and Concern are not manifest
it'll wait till somewhere down the road, somebody will expose the warts...THEN folks will be upset, some will even remember J. Edgar Hoover...who is smiling with glee from hell in his best dress
Excelsior?
43 - Iron Duke
Did you not read the stuff you youself quoted? How many times does it clearly say "foreign intelligence" in this bill which is only about a page long? It may not limit surveillance to overseas calls, but it obviously doesn't apply to phonecalls between regular citizens doing regular stuff. People are probably right not to be concerned and the congress and senate are making a safe bet by voting for it.
44 - gonzo marx
Iron Duke - did you not read the links in the article itself? one of which shows well over 200 cases under the old TSP, that the FBI found of tapping purely domestic calls?
i make a point of it in the article as well, this is the crux of the Concern, if it were only foreign instances, it wouldn't be as big a deal..Citizens rights would be protected, and our treaties and such with other nations, as well as our own laws concerning Intelligence gathering provide oversight and guidelines
blurring those lines, as this legislation does...as well as removing independent oversight in many cases, IS the concern
Excelsior?
45 - Iron Duke
200 cases in 30 years and out of almost 20,000? Again, why is John Q. Public concerned?
46 - gonzo marx
that's over 200 admitted cases in the last 3 years
and any ONE of them a clear violation of our Constitution
you choice to be concerned or not, i've always said make up your own mind
i think it's an Issue that merits the most grave concern possible
your mileage may vary
Excelsior?
47 - Iron Duke
And who was harmed and how in these 200 cases? Has anyone sued? I'd think they have cause. But what would the damages be? That's the catch. What harm was done?
48 - gonzo marx
we don't know, since the Administration does not release the details..those folks whose Rights were violated don't even know they were...
and the Administration's version of the Bill had liability removed for all the telecoms that participated in all of this...if no worries as to liability, why remove possible legal recourse?
more valid Concerns on the topic, which were indeed touched upon in the Article, thanks for4 bringing them up on their own
Excelsior?
49 - Iron Duke
So these people don't even know that their rights have been violated? Guess their suffering is pretty hard to measure then.
I know there's a protection in the Constitution for free speech. Where does it cover private speech?
50 - gonzo marx
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
there's the text, you can read it for yourself and make up your own mind as to how Important all this is to you...
for me, ANY violation of our Rights, much less a systemic gnawing away at them by our government, is cause for Concern
even if i am the only one standing up to say so (i don't think i am), it's my Right to do so, and i'll take the Responsibility for whatever i say/type
enjoy your day ...
Excelsior?
51 - Lumpy
I think I must be ADD because I keep reading that quote from the constitution and missing the part about having a right not to have computers scan conversations over the publicly owned wires and airwaves.
52 - gonzo marx
check the "enjoy your day" link there Lumpy...you will see how the SCOTUS has indeed ruled time and again that you phone calls are indeed covered...
hence the need for a warrant in order to wiretap
here i would have thought good conservatives would have not only been aware of such, but active supporters of the broadest possible interpretation of privacy in the realm of government involvement and violations
Excelsior?
53 - STM
Ruvy wrote: "The United States of America is sliding into a dictatorship - partly (but not entirely) because Americans are too damned apathetic to vote."
Simple answer, introduce compulsory voting. You can still cast an informal voteb that way, but at least it gets people to the polls to have their names ticked off the list.
At the last State election here, I was going to cast an informal vote but when I got there, I thought - that's just wasting my democratic voice, and I voted how I normally would despite not liking the State govt much.
Just getting people to the booths is important, and the reason I favour compulsory voting?
Because in a democracy (OK then, I'll split hairs: a representative republic or representative parliamentary constistutional monarchy), we should never forget that the right to vote is more than just a right - it's also a privelege afforded us by all those who've gone before.
Voting therefore is also our duty and a nation's way of expressing its thanks to the people who gave us this way of life.
54 - gonzo marx
well Stan...i tend to Agree with your thought there...
however, it's also someone's Right to chose NOT to vote/participate if they desire
i'm a fan for "none of the above", if *none* wins, ya gotta throw out all the listed candidates and start over...
THAT one would get panties in a twist pretty quickly, and would give those disillusioned an effective way to register their Protest
any other takers for "none of the above"?, aka NotA..
Excelsior?
55 - Clavos
"here i would have thought good conservatives would have not only been aware of such, but active supporters of the broadest possible interpretation of privacy in the realm of government involvement and violations"
This one is.
To the extent that the penalty for any government employee (including the small "p" president, who is after all, a civil servant, and OUR employee) caught eavesdropping on citizens without having obtained permission from the courts by due process should be tried (not "impeached," which is nothing more than the equivalent of a country club ostracism), and if convicted, sentenced to not less than life imprisonment without parole.
That would stop it pretty effing quick.
56 - STM
Goz: "however, it's also someone's Right to chose NOT to vote/participate if they desire"
In that case, no one has any cause for complaining about outcomes.
I agree it's someone's right to choose. You can choose here to pay a $75 fine or go along to the polling booth and do your civic dury. Duty, remember. You guys go at some of this stuff the wrong way, and then spend the next however long whingeing about the results.
IMO, being forced to vote is the lesser of two evils. It's all very well carrying on about your right to choose (how come that doesn't apply to tax??), but the truth is, in the US the political process has been well and truly taken out of the hands of the people and now rests firmly with lobby groups, big business and those with millions of dollars to spend propping up the party of their choice. You are no longer a) a genuine democracy, or b) even a truly representative republic.
Compulsory voting and caps on campaign spending put the result of an election back squarely in the hands of the people - all of 'em.
57 - gonzo marx
why settle for a lesser Evil?
heh
like i said, i understand your very valid points, but must disagree...the freedom to be apathetic is inherent, imo
hence my thoughts about "none of the above"...i think it would increase voter turn out, and as i had said, give an effective means of protest voting
part of the Problem revolves around there being only 2 viable Parties in the U.S.
campaign spending...i'm open to the Idea of public financed elections, give them free air time (part of licensing out the public airwaves should be a certain amount of public service time for elections..spread equally among candidates)...but i also Understand why some would oppose such measures...
a difficult decision..unfortunately, with the way our System is operating right now, NO ONE is talking about it, and nothing will be done about it short of open Revolt
i'd like to see them pass it where cops, congressmen, senators and all federal employees had to wear cameras/microphones when they were at work, with the upload to a public website (after security screening, of course)...but that's a Dream...public officials on the record talking with Lobbyists? actual footage of cops at work?
ah well...
Excelsior?
58 - STM
Gonz: "part of the Problem revolves around there being only 2 viable Parties in the U.S."
That's pretty much the same with most western democracies, including us.
However, compulsory voting does one great thing: it also gives rise to viable minor parties with reasonable platforms (who must have a certain number of genuine members before they can be registered as a party).
In our case, some will hold the balance of power in the Senate and the State upper houses - and often they are elected on a platform of non-partisan, keep-the-bastards-honest promises. They don't wield a huge amount of power, but they can swing votes either way.
That can only be a good thing in a representative political system.
The party I'd like to join in Australia is the Party, Party, Party Party, which actually exists but I can't find the number.
59 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Stan,
While I agree with your solution of introducing compulsory voting, that solution is far too little, far too late, just as a thorough housecleaning of all the rats in the Knesset, High Court, IDF, etc. is far too little, far too late.
Matters have progressed so far in the American republic the there is a culture of apathy and ignorance feeding on entertainment (consider what kind of site THIS is), and that entertainment gets sicker and sicker by the decade...
The time to deal with these problems was about fifty years ago - before corporate America was able to impose its culture of stupidity on Americans.
I also hate to say this, but ideology does play a significant role in all of this, and the ability of the corporate moguls in the States to manipulate an ideology built on self-sufficiency and independence to create a culture built on dependence on sick entertainment and idle consumption has played a big role in the downfall of the American republic...
The two are closely related, and the pattern has been imitated here, with modifications made as necessary.
60 - STM
Ruve: Yep, I'd agree with most of that - except that it's never too late.
There's still time to act. Now, that would be ...
61 - gonzo marx
gotta share some agreement with you both...
it IS *sick*...and i do think it can be helped
i don't think i'm the only one who thinks that way, the Question is what can one do?
i'm starting by bitching about some of what i see, that i don't think is covered enough, if at all...
now what...a few dozen folks might read it if i'm lucky...but it's a start
i've looked up some of what it would take to actually establish a new Party..takes organization and money, buckets of money...
the Quixote Party?...slogan - "don't tread on me, i'm fucking with windmills" ??
much to think about, eh? i'm taking suggestions ...
Excelsior?
62 - STM
I have a mate who was elected to the New South Wales State Parliament as a member of The Outdoor Recreation Party thanks to a bizarre voting-paper loophole that saw him in a favourable Upper House grouping that dished out voters' preferences his way. Even he was surprised to be elected.
Once there, he embarked on a lot of "field" study trips.
I am thinking of resurrecting the Frankie Avalon style to start up a modern-day version of The Beach Party.
Would need to do a fair bit of study at taxpayers' expense, too.
63 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
i've looked up some of what it would take to actually establish a new Party..takes organization and money, buckets of money...
In my considered opinion, Gonzo, the last bus for peaceful change in America pulled out for the coast when Martin Luther King's birthday was recognized as a federal holiday and the groundwork for the "malling of America" was laid by the establishment of a series of three day weekends through the year. It was this "malling of America" that has worked the final permutation of American culture from what it had been to what it is now.
Party?
No, my liberty loving friend. That final Option laid out in the Declaration of Independence must be pursued. You are long past the option of "political factions." So are we here. You may not be convinced of this; your words indicate that you are not. But I suggest to you that you will not have time to find out otherwise - and if you pursue that option, when you do find out otherwise, the cost may be higher than you are prepared for.
In this you and I are in the same boat, whether we wish to recognize it or not.
For example, I do support Moshe Feiglin who seeks to oust Netanyahu from the leadership of the Likud. I will vote accordingly next Tuesday, when the Likud leadership vote is held.
But I do not think Feiglin will succeed. I do think that sufficient support on Tuesday next will establish Feiglin as the heir-apparent to the Zionist regime when it finally collapses of its own corruption and incompetence under military attack in the not too distant future. Even then, I am not sure that he will last as a leader. I do not think that he is mentally prepared for the kind of fight he will have on his hands. I pray that I am wrong, of course.
Hence the tone of my recent analysis of events going on here.
64 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Stan,
It is my impression that democracy is not quite on the deathbed in Oz that it is in the United States. Please correct me if that is an incorrect impression.
If I'm right, it may be that when democracy expires in the USA, it will have to be re-imported to America from Australia, that fair land where the water goes down the drain the wrong way. It may be that Americans will need you much as the Brits needed America in the nigh hopeless days of 1940-41.
Fact is stranger than fiction and the facts of history may prove very strange in the next few years...
65 - Andy Marsh
gonzo - I was working down in Charleston when they first bought Padilla there. You wanna talk about solitary...they expanded the fences around the brig about 50 ft so people couldn't even get near the regular fences. Blocked off roads on two sides of the brig. They put up 50 ft towers on all four corners of the brig yard. They really believed something bad was gonna happen down there!
I thought we already decided to do away with all the spineless shitweasels...now all we need is a plan...
66 - troll
compulsory voting and nota are both good ideas if your goal is to perpetuate that ol' status quo...which in the US has never been other than the rule of moneyed interests - there were no 'good old days' of some now lost representative populist democracy
electoral politics is the chore of forming and controlling public opinion through the design and use of palatable propaganda...(and when has it been otherwise)...to convince people to accept the forced choices of this top down improperly self-described 'rule of law' as legitimate
it's a system that will not be 'fixed' from within...boycott federal elections
67 - Clavos
They tried boycotting elections in Venezuela recently...and all it got them was the strengthening and further consolidation of Chavez' power.
I understand your point, but I think it's too passive a form of resistance to accomplish change.
68 - troll
now now Clavos - advocating the overthrow of the federal government by force is illegal...one can't even propose an organized tax revolt legally
we wouldn't want to go and be criminals or any such now would we
69 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
troll,
advocating the overthrow of the federal government by force is illegal...one can't even propose an organized tax revolt legally
You begin to understand the problems here, then...
70 - Clavos
troll, careful you don't bite down while your tongue is still in your cheek.
71 - troll
btw - the argument that not voting 'allows Them to do what They want' misses the point - They're going to do what They want in any case...of course They would prefer to operate as if at the request of we the people
a visible organized legal boycott could threaten this myth of legitimacy
72 - Dave Nalle
So you would argue to rape victims that they're going to get raped anyway, might as well lie back and enjoy it?
Dave
73 - troll
actually as I understand it the best chance that one has to avoid/survive a rape is to defend oneself physically to the best of one's abilities - not take a vote on it
74 - Dave Nalle
Your vote is the only means of self-defense you have, aside from exercising a lot of free speech, troll.
Dave
75 - troll
...and thus one should not throw away that vote legitimizing the rule of another bunch of representatives for $