There's a common axiom that when accusations start getting thrown around, the accusers are often likely to project their guilt onto others and be engaging in exactly the kind of wrongdoing they decry. This seems to be proven very true by recent accusations from the left that protests against health care legislation were inauthentic "astroturfing" bought and paid for by the health care and insurance industries.
First they attempted to discredit the protests by describing generally well behaved protesters as an "angry mob" and ultimately as neo-Nazis and white supremacists based on distortions and the scantiest imaginable evidence, such as Nancy Pelosi seeing a sign with a swastika with a cross through it — indicating opposition to national socialism — and claiming that this meant the bearer was a nazi. This strategy fell apart when the extensive video of the protests made very clear that the protesters were peaceful and generally well-behaved despite the occasional passionate outburst. It even created the opportunity for humor at the expense of the Democrats with responses like the popular "I am the Mob" video.
The next response from the Democrats was to send in thugs to intimidate, assault and exclude anyone with a dissenting optinion who tried to attend a townhall meeting so that audiences would only ask approved questions and protesters would be kept out or scared away. Within a matter of days, union members and ACORN activists in matching shirts with identical printed signs were confronting grassroots protesters at every townhall. Now it has been revealed that these pro-health care advocates are not exactly what they seem. In fact, they are exactly what the left wrongly accused the grassroots protesters of being, a paid rent-a-mob made up of hired thugs an shills.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Franco
Dave,
I love the video. BTW, I am of the “angry mob”
These blatantly deceitful tactics you have outlined by elected officials and their democratic progressive supporters/handlers is good work Dave.
However, I do not happen to believer these intentional deceitfulness is unique to this health care issue, as you have framed it.
These is just more of the same kind of lurid tactics we have seen the Obama handlers display ever since he came on the seen back in his campaign. ACRON was in on it then and they are in on it now. The MSM is going along with it now as they did before. It is dirty Chicago politics at is dirtiest and it has worked for them so far from the get go, why change it. Surly you can’t be serious in thinking Obama will change his ways if he still has the MSM enabling it all.
Now I solute you for staying with this over the past few weeks and posting your pieces on it. You have covered a lot of ground and it has helped keep it sorted out. But for all the reasons stated above, I was disappointed in the solution to it you posted, which is really more just whishfull thinking. Here it is.
Maybe it's time to stop and reconsider. President Obama could show some real leadership and admit that his party has blown this opportunity through bully tactics and incompetence and open up an honest dialog on this issue with all points of view included.
That is never going to happen.
In particular he ought to repudiate the tactics and behavior of Nancy Pelosi and the unions and the DNC to reclaim some legitimacy for himself.
That is never going to happen.
If he and his supporters continue obstinately on the course they have followed so far they won't have enough credibility left to pass a resolution confirming that the sky is blue, much less any kind of health care reform.
It may not pass by the people, but Congress dose not care what the people want. And Nancy Pelosi shows it in spades every time she opens her mouth. She is a mainliner for this deceitful tactics.
In your coverage of this you are calling attention to the most profoundly important issue in our countries history Dave, and it has nothing to do with health care. But your solutions are not going to change the dishonest democratic progressive left. Because quite frankly, they don’t give a dame how dishonest they are. The will do what ever it takes to win socialism. They have waited a long time to be this bold and now they have to pull all the plugs, because this is America, the last great bastion of individual freedom in the world. It is a big fish that requires all gloves coming off, and they are using brass knuckles too boot.
You of all people should come up with much more powerful ideas for how to stop these decitul liers in their take over of this nation by there progressive socilist agenda that they are molding before our very eyes into what they want. And what they want never hand anything to do with what made this country great.
So will you please subject something more in order for dealing with the deadly street fight this is instead of wishful thinking.
2 - Dave Nalle
The will do what ever it takes to win socialism.
They believe in it like a religion and that it is their historical destiny to take over society and government everywhere, regardless of the cost in rights and human lives.
But I do think you misconstrued my concluding paragraphs here. I put forward my suggestions of what Obama should do not because I think he will do any of those things, but to highlight that he will NOT offer any of those reasonable responses to the situation. As an ideologue he will not behave like a pragmatic politician or like an honest representative of the people who would reconsider when it becomes clear that what he wants is not what the people want.
As for stopping them, this health care issue is showing the way. If we can hold them accountable for their actions and proposals on every issue as we have been doing with health care and if they keep attacking and having those attacks backfire, the loss of credibility and political viability will continue, and November of 2010 is only 440 some days away.
Dave
3 - Franco
OK, I got ya.
This just in.......
Aug. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Two firms that received $343.3 million to handle advertising for Barack Obama’s White House run last year have profited from his top priority as president by taking on his push for health-care overhaul.
One is AKPD Message and Media, the Chicago-based firm headed by David Axelrod until he left last Dec. 31 to serve as a senior adviser to the president. Axelrod was Obama’s top campaign strategist and is now helping sell the health-care plan. The other firm is Washington-based GMMB Campaign Group, where partner Jim Margolis was also an Obama strategist.
4 - Franco
Dave, another thing that matters is the ecomony. I think it is going to get worse, and frankly, a lot worse and this will start showing up going into the first part of next year.
Given that they want 'green jobs" what ever that means, cutting back our domestic oil supply, and "Cap and Trade" which no once else is signing on to, and on going war that could last for years to come, and other potentional wars that could surface, and all the trillions alread spent in the bail out, banking, and other bills passed, we dont have the money right now for a health care program. We just dont have it.
And if I am right about the ecomony, there will be no revinews for the government.
If the MSM keeps playing along with the administrations spin that things are getter better (and they have to, because no body is going to talk negitive about being so close to the edge of a depression cliff) then a lot of shit is going to hit the fan.
You notice how every one of Obamas big ticket items is always a - rush ruch, got it do in now, can't wait - song and dance.
He has broken the bank and now is going to finish us off with health care. Once this thing gets set in motion, no matter how messed up it gets, they are not going to roll it all back to the way it was before.
Maybe this is time for some new privite insuracne companies to start up and compete with the goverment. The government can not opperate that lean and mean, never has and never will.
5 - handyguy
Dave calling anyone else an ideologue is a joke in itself.
A single-payer system could, arguably, be called socialist; it could also, arguably, at the same time be called common sense.
But there is no single-payer plan even on the table. The 4 current bills, and most likely the fifth one, the Senate finance committee bill that looks most likely to pass, provide for insurance reform, and are 'socialist' only to an, excuse the expression, ideologue.
Dave, after a brief respite in which he admirably shot down a lie/rumor ['death panels'], is back to his usual propaganda mode. From his article, one might conclude that:
• No supporters of the health care legislation who show up at town hall meetings could possibly be sincere or spontaneous; they are all, every one of them, either 'thugs' or 'shills.'
• All the protesters who show up at town halls are good, honest, well informed citizens.
In other words, Their Side all stink, and Our Side all smell like roses.
But…
Don't the [approximately] 40% of the population who support the legislation deserve a voice too? Does Dave deliberately ignore them? Is it his position that they should just keep quiet?
[Dave repeats the inaccurate 32% figure in this article; the latest Rasmussen poll , Aug. 9-10, found 42% in favor.]
Are the [approximately] 50% of the population opposed to the legislation really accurately represented by the loud, extremist voices who have gotten the most news coverage at the town halls?
Isn't it more likely that a large number of Americans are ambivalent about the bill, and uneasy about its costs and about the consequences of Big Changes -- but highly unlikely to be inclined to shout "Traitor!" at their Congressman, or hang him in effigy, or carry a sign designed to look like his tombstone?
Mr. Nalle has the gall to end his diatribe with a call for 'honest dialog,' after decrying 'bully tactics.' Wouldn't it be more honest to say that both sides have used hardball political tactics?
The 'water the tree of liberty' crowd may be perfectly sincere in their ranting; but national conservative groups, talk-radio demagogues, and the Republican party have all been more than happy to employ gross distortion, half truths and outright lies to unfairly attack the legislation.
The utterly benign proposal to have Medicare pay for end-of-life counseling if people want it will now almost certainly be removed from the legsislation. Why? Because the lie about killing seniors, which Dave himself said was unfounded, stuck. Does he approve of this development?
How many more lies will stick? Will Dave step up and fight those as well?
6 - zingzing
dave: "socialism: They believe in it like a religion and that it is their historical destiny to take over society and government everywhere, regardless of the cost in rights and human lives."
you want to rape your neighbor and bury your family in the cellar. there, it's out there. the truth for all to see, because it was I, THE GREATEST MIND IN THE HISTORY OF ME, who sad it. therefore it is true.
you're just a fucking liar. you're also a republican. ooooh. low blow on that "republican" shit, eh?
as for your inevitable reply, go fuck yourself. you know what i write is true. you're nothing but a blowhard.
7 - zingzing
as for your article, it's again more "we on the right are righteous lambs, heading towards our knowing slaughter at the hands of those evil democrats, who are all shills and thugs and want to kill us with healthcare."
you're either playing dumb or have an agenda.
8 - handyguy
Now, zing, you'll catch more flies with sugar than with shit [or vinegar].
But come to think of it...who wants to catch flies?
9 - zingzing
you can catch flies with shit. or so it would seem.
i'm obviously just flinging poo around. as usual.
10 - Ruvy
you're just a fucking liar....as for your inevitable reply, go fuck yourself. you know what i write is true. you're nothing but a blowhard.....
I have no dog in this race. If the leftists send in thugs or shills, you have it coming, and if it isn't the case, it doesn't matter to me either. Healthcare, shmealthcare. It's all the same garbage to me.... America going down the chute.
FLUSH!!
I just wanted to admire your utter mastery of the English language, zing. As a past master, myself, I know whereof I speak.
Love and kisses from Samaria,
Ruvy
11 - zingzing
thanks, ruvy. i do pride myself on my eloquence. it's a labor of love, to reduce it to a cliche. really, the word "fuck" has to be the most versatile word in the language. one of these days, i'm going to try to use it as a verb, adverb, noun and adjective in the same sentence.
12 - Dave Nalle
A single-payer system could, arguably, be called socialist; it could also, arguably, at the same time be called common sense.
Well, it's up to the people to decide how much socialism they are willing to accept. Right now it looks like it's not so much. But if a reasonable single-payer system were offered instead of the steaming pile of crap in Congress right now that might change.
But there is no single-payer plan even on the table.
Which is why I can't understand how anyone rational on the left can support anything currently being considered.
• No supporters of the health care legislation who show up at town hall meetings could possibly be sincere or spontaneous; they are all, every one of them, either 'thugs' or 'shills.'
I'm sure some of them are legit. The point is that the promoters of health care reform don't trust it to win on its own merit and have to use these methods to stack the deck.
• All the protesters who show up at town halls are good, honest, well informed citizens.
Good lord no. Hardly. But they are at least sincere and not being paid to be there.
Don't the [approximately] 40% of the population who support the legislation deserve a voice too?
32%. And I've always believed the minority should get a hearing. Tyranny of the majority is unacceptable, but tyranny of an abusive, corrupt and autocratic minority as seems to be the case here, is truly unacceptable.
[Dave repeats the inaccurate 32% figure in this article; the latest Rasmussen poll , Aug. 9-10, found 42% in favor.]
Wrong. Check the link in the article. Your 42% figure is from a poll which was taken ONLY in Pennsylvania. The nationwide figure is 32%.
Are the [approximately] 50% of the population opposed to the legislation really accurately represented by the loud, extremist voices who have gotten the most news coverage at the town halls?
Well, they're expressing that opposition, so what's your beef? Why do you think so many people are turning out?
Isn't it more likely that a large number of Americans are ambivalent about the bill, and uneasy about its costs and about the consequences of Big Changes -- but highly unlikely to be inclined to shout "Traitor!" at their Congressman, or hang him in effigy, or carry a sign designed to look like his tombstone?
As the polls make clear, this is a very divisive issue. The number who are ambivalent is small and shrinking. It hits very close to home so it gets people stirred up.
Mr. Nalle has the gall to end his diatribe with a call for 'honest dialog,' after decrying 'bully tactics.' Wouldn't it be more honest to say that both sides have used hardball political tactics?
Sure, but the ball is in Obama's court now since he has sunk to the lowest depths. He needs to apologize to the people and make amends.
The utterly benign proposal to have Medicare pay for end-of-life counseling if people want it will now almost certainly be removed from the legsislation. Why? Because the lie about killing seniors, which Dave himself said was unfounded, stuck. Does he approve of this development?
I don't care. The entire process needs to be scratched and started over. Period.
Dave
13 - Dave Nalle
Zing. Here's the non response your childishness deserves. Grow up.
Dave
14 - zingzing
i'll think about it. probably won't come to any conclusions.
that said, you should stop being so bitter. if you really think we worship socialism like a god and want to destroy america, you're just a sad, sad man. thing is, i don't think you really think that. i just think you're lying through your teeth.
15 - Baronius
Dave, after careful review of today's comments, I've determined that you're an impartial observer when you critique conservative activists, but a lying ideologue when you critique those on the left. In the future, before you publish an article, you should ask yourself: could this article more neutrally support the Democrats?
At the risk of being neutral myself, I have to defend Nancy Pelosi. To my knowledge, she only said that people were carrying images of swastikas, not that anyone was a Nazi. I think she was just referring to the Obama=Hitler imagery. Actually, I'm sure the idea that Democrats could be fascists would startle her far more than a bunch of Obama opponents praising Nazism.
16 - zingzing
baronius: "Actually, I'm sure the idea that Democrats could be fascists would startle her far more than a bunch of Obama opponents praising Nazism."
probably. i'm pretty sure you could reverse that and you'd agree. shrug. we both think the other is one step away from fascism, and that's the way it's always been and always will be. so maybe we should just give up on fascism and go back to our respective warmongering and socialism. at least those don't cancel each other out, you nazi-loving fascist.
"I've determined that you're an impartial observer when you critique conservative activists, but a lying ideologue when you critique those on the left."
really? what do you expect? when dave lightly bashes those on the right, he makes sure to point out that he is talking about a fringe element. but then he paints the entire left with the same brush when he bashes on us. his view of the right is nuanced (if far to forgiving), while his view of the left is blunt and unfocused. so he comes off like an ideologue, only bashing on the left to bash on the left.
17 - handyguy
I appreciate Dave's taking time to respond to my points.
I just checked the Rasmussen site, however. Nothing about a Pennsylvania-only poll. It's labeled very clearly "National Survey of 1,000 Likely Voters." And these, again, are the results:
Generally speaking, do you strongly favor, somewhat favor, somewhat oppose or strongly oppose the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and the congressional Democrats?
26% Strongly favor
16% Somewhat favor
9% Somewhat oppose
44% Strongly oppose
5% Not sure
18 - handyguy
I know it's unlikely, but I encourage our friends on the right to watch the Obama town hall going on in Colorado right now. I'm sure it will be available to watch online afterward.
He's just so good at explaining this stuff, and at acknowledging valid arguments against him and rebutting them fairly. The caricature presented in this article is refuted almost completely.
I write this not knowing if a hostile question may yet come up. There have already been some mildly challenging ones.
19 - roger nowosielski
But you know, Handy: it's preselected.
20 - handyguy
I'm talking about what he says, not who is in the audience. But as I say, at least a couple of the questioners have been skeptical.
21 - roger nowosielski
One valid point was made - even by Hannity. It's somewhat different when it's the President who is speaking rather than any other elected official. Besides, he either seems better prepared to field the question or just plain more knowledgeable.
22 - Baronius
Zing, I'm not calling Pelosi a fascist or quasi-fascist at all. Please reread the comment. I'm saying that she seems to lack the introspection or empathy necessary for comprehending both sides' thinking.
Perhaps if you could give Dave a table or a schedule of some kind, he could know how often and how severely he should criticize his own side.
23 - roger nowosielski
Why should Pelosi have empathy for what's a fringe, lunatic element? Even Dave doesn't, and those are "his people."
24 - handyguy
how often and how severely he should criticize his own side
Give us a break. Dave is fully capable of making intelligent differentiation between a fair argument and a bullshit polemic on either side. When he fails to do so, it is perfectly fair game for us to comment on that failure.
I'll speak only for myself here: I react when I perceive he's being unfair.
You seem to imply it isn't necessary to be fair. Dave should only build up rightist arguments, because that's the team he plays on.
This isn't a football game.
If I am misrepresenting your point, please enlighten us, because that is exactly how it sounded.
25 - roger nowosielski
Very good point, Handy. This isn't a football game where winning is everything. Doesn't our common future matter?