They derive their strength in their large, undocumented numbers and just for that reason the free flow from across the border will never stem.
Coming as I do from a family of refugees from Bangladesh displaced by partition and settled in India for a couple of generations, immigration legal, illegal, enforced, or by choice is always of interest to me. My ancestors were driven out of their homeland and had to start their lives over in a new country. Years after the 1947 refugee crisis was over, the tide of illegal immigrants from Bangladesh to West Bengal, India rises unabated.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - heartcrossings
Zing - if you get a chance read up a little about Calcutta, India in the early 1900s and then if possible visit the city today. You can see what allowing illegal immigrants in unabated for 50 years can do to a city known for its art and culture as it was for being the hub of trade and business in Asia. You may feel less inclined to repeat the mistake in America.
27 - SteveS
since both sides of the argument concede that defending the border competely is impossible, the obvious answer is to target the companies that exploit and hire the workers. Oddly enough, nobody is advocating that.
No surprise to see the conservatives here racially attack the exploited worker who thinks it's a good thing to work 16 hours a day for three dollars an hour. Why not target the employer who is causing this problem?
28 - heartcrossings
Targeting and punishing the employers who exploit illegals will be almost as impossible as getting WalMart out of business. As long as there are consumers for cheap goods and services in America the jobs for the illegals is guaranteed.
If those employers were indeed punished, they would merely pass on the costs associated to the hapless consumer who is already footing the bill for keeping the illegals in country.
29 - SteveS
if that is true heartcrossings and if the consumer insists on buying cheap goods, then the consumer has no business complaining about the employer paying illegals to do the job.
It's either put up or shut up. You can't bitch about illegals working for 3 dollars an hour and then go shopping at the business's who exploit these people so they don't have to pay taxes and all that.
Sounds like having your cake and eating it too.
If you want Americans to have the job, then you have to pay the American to work it. And when you shop, that means paying the price. If you want your 99 cent gadget, then quit bitching about the people who are willing to make it.
30 - SteveS
I know what you are saying heartcrossing, and I understand, but does anybody realize how pathetic that makes us Americans look?
We want the benefit of the cheap labor, but we are bitching about the drain of the cheap labor. We can't have it both ways.
31 - zingzing
okay, so we can't protect the borders, we can't punish the employers... why do we waste our time?
i think we should just give them texas. it's a fucked up place anyway. plus, then we could go to south by southwest in mexico!
32 - SteveS
and another thing, we've now made it so 'buy American' is no different than buying from one of Kathy Lee Gifford's indonesian sweat shops.
33 - heartcrossings
Totally agree, Steve. Can't blame the consumer - they can't afford to pay the American rates for goods and services with how much they make. Which is why I think the focus should be on creating incentives for Mexicans to stay home instead of builing those moats.
34 - SteveS
Can't blame the consumer - they can't afford to pay the American rates for goods and services with how much they make.
but look at how hypocritical this is. Americans can't afford American rates. The solution here is for corporations to readjust their pricing. It makes no sense for a country to pay people 15 dollars an hour or more but then outprice them on the consumer end. We are cutting our own throats.
One way to stop this is for corporations not having to pay 5 million dollars to some dweeb because he fell down.
Which is why I think the focus should be on creating incentives for Mexicans
I favor that, but I always get accused of nation building.
35 - SteveS
I said: One way to stop this is for corporations not having to pay 5 million dollars to some dweeb because he fell down.
...and a much quicker remedy is to not pay the CEO 88 million a year.
36 - heartcrossings
Some other things that might help : Let people work from home saves them commute time and money and daycare expenses too. Improve remote medical diagnostics technology so people can find the cheapest medical help from anywhere in the world from the comfort of their homes. Provide tax incentives for conserving energy.
37 - SteveS
Let people work from home saves them commute time and money and daycare expenses too.
I work from home for precisely those reasons. I agree.
38 - Arch Conservative
zing ..........
why is texas a "fucked up place"
where do you live that's so much better?
39 - zingzing
heh. america's deathcamp, baby!
where do you think i live? i'll give you several guesses. i'll give you some hints. coast. north. liberal. pretty. has every major sport except hockey. strange, that, considering.
40 - Arch Conservative
Washington
I find it funny that someone from a state with Seattle would critisize Texas.
41 - Nancy
My guess was Maine, but they're not liberal, or I didn't think they were. Hey Gonzo, which way votes the state of Maine?
42 - Arch Conservative
Maine doesn't have any major sports teams, it is on the coast and very pretty. It is also fairly liberal and tends to vote Democrat.
43 - RedTard
"Targeting and punishing the employers who exploit illegals will be almost as impossible as getting WalMart out of business. As long as there are consumers for cheap goods and services in America the jobs for the illegals is guaranteed."
Putting Walmart out of business is a silly fantasy by anti-business whores and shouldn't even be associated with this topic as they don't hire illegals. Shopping for some inexpensive goods and services is also legal and prudent.
My guess is that if you kicked out a few illegals (or at least slowed down the pace of adding new ones) those low wages employees, the ones who work at WalMart, might find their job prospects picking up as people scrambled to replace their workforce the shortage might even cause the system to work as designed and raise their wages a bit. Then they could afford to move on up to shopping at Target. If they're liberal they can then sneer with hatred at the WalMart crowds as they drive by.
What kind of ninny ass whiners have we become? Is this 'I can't' attitude the one that got us to the moon or made us the most rich and powerful nation on the planet?
We can't build a wall cause somebody might go round. We can't cut off public assistance, that would be mean. We can't punish employers cause some might be able to hide their workers. We can't break our addiction from $.99 pieces of shit at the Dollar store. We can't vote a plan because some voters are probably illegals and might not like it.
Fuck you all, we can. We need a COMPREHENSIVE plan. I'm not sure what part of that you guys can't understand. Not one half-measure, a group of policies to change the flow from illegals to legal immigration. Will it be perfect, no. Will it be enough to keep the southwest from slipping into an overcrowded, poverty stricken northern territory of Mexico, yes.
44 - Richard Brodie
zingaling: my family has been here less than 100 years. we were immigrants. this country has ALWAYS been a country of immigrants.
The key word is "WERE". That means YOU are not an immigrant, and neither are 90 per-cent of the current population. So we are NOT a country of immigrants.
and my family didn't march peacefully, they fought in the fucking streets. we murdered and burned and stole.
You must be Sicilian.
repel the invasion! go ahead. murder a mexican. go to jail. have fun!
No need to resort to your own family's Mafia tactics. And BTW it's not just water we're running short on. And while the Mexican invasion makes things worse, it is not even the main problem. Read on:
In the supranational government, represented by the WTO, Codex Alimentarius, the ITU, etc., the citizens are not individual human beings, but rather corporations. Globalism is government of, by, and for the big multinationals. They want to see standards of living raised in all the third world countries so that they will have bigger markets and become even more monolithically powerful.
It is this thrust, more than anything else, that will continue to put downward pressure on our own standard of living, for the simple reason that increasing demand for rapidly disappearing mineral resources raises the price of those resources, and thus increases the price of EVERYTHING to the American consumer.
The U.S. Geological Survey estimates that even at current rates of consumption there are only a certain number of years before ALL remaining accessible below ground reserves are exhausted. This is basically all that's left to be mined from that part of the earth's crust that we can feasibly reach:
Aluminum 100+ years
Copper 67+ years
Lead 48 years
Nickel 100 years
Zinc 54 years
Silver 29 years
Gold 34 years
The world cannot continue to sustain the insanely high population level that the industrial revolution allowed it to shoot up to, much less the additional billions expected to be added over the remainder of this century, as a result of the enablement of runaway third world breeding.
The United States can continue it suicidal participation in the new world order, and go down with it, or it can weather the coming storm by stopping its own runaway, immigration-fueled population growth, and becoming maximally self-sufficent.
So zingy boy, sounds to me like you have a terminal case of complacency. If your not already, you damn well better start being paranoid as hell.
45 - zingzing
damn a.c., you're good. seattle it is. beautiful place, wonderful culture, stupid smoking and touching-the-stripper laws... summer's just around the corner, won't you come visit me?
46 - zingzing
r.b.--hmm. sounds like the whole world is going to hell. so why is it that third world breeders are the problem and yet it's we americans that use sooooo much of those natural resources? are we just greedy? maybe we should at ourselves too. the world's population is a problem. but, the world's population is the same if the world's population lives in their own country, or our country.
i'm not italian. or sicilian. and we weren't gangsters...
47 - Bliffle
"Yes! Build a wall! The most free and admirable regimes in history have all built walls."
The alternative to walls seems to be wars (including invasions by disorganized unarmed foot soldier peasants), but I'm sure there are alternatives. I'm open to suggestions. The only thing I can think of is to lean Real Hard on the foreign (say, Mexican) government to open it's borders the other way so that US businessmen can found and actually own businesses in Mexico, thus bringing to that land some of the blessings of a vigorous capitalistic economy. Otherwise you just have a failing feudal society invading a more prosperous neighbor to steal their stuff.
48 - heartcrossings
Agree with Bliffle : "The only thing I can think of is to lean Real Hard on the foreign (say, Mexican) government to open it's borders the other way so that US businessmen can found and actually own businesses in Mexico, thus bringing to that land some of the blessings of a vigorous capitalistic economy."
49 - SteveS
Fuck you all, we can. We need a COMPREHENSIVE plan. I'm not sure what part of that you guys can't understand. Not one half-measure, a group of policies to change the flow from illegals to legal immigration. Will it be perfect, no. Will it be enough to keep the southwest from slipping into an overcrowded, poverty stricken northern territory of Mexico, yes.
I disagree with this rant completely. A policy to change the flow of 11 million illegals to 11 million legals is not the answer. You have a fear of the southwest becoming a northern territory of Mexico, but by your solution there will still be 11 million immigrants there. (Not that that's a bad thing, but it doesn't solve your rant).
We need to make Mexico a viable place to live. So American employers have no choice but to hire illegals in order to give us cheap stuff? Then hire them in Mexico. Then they can have jobs there and work through the legal system if they still choose to come here.
50 - RedTard
"We need to make Mexico a viable place to live."
That's a great part of the solution, but it's only part. Nation building can only truly be done by the native population. Unfortunately, all the people that are sick of Mexico's policies simply run away to the US instead of pressing for positive change.
We can only equalize the income gap by lowering our part, we can't and probably shouldn't try and control Mexican wages. I don't want to see our standards come down any farther than they already are, although it might change some people's perception of WalMart. On the world median income of $2,100/year you'd need all the low prices you can get.
"but by your solution there will still be 11 million immigrants there."
I'm not some evil racist who hates Mexicans. I realize the hardships deporting them would create, the amoung of citizen children with illegal parents, the number of businesses that depend on the 11 million consumers that are already here. I'm not convinced it is practical or "right" to deport all that are here, I do know it is possible and not that difficult to slow the flow of new illegals by 90+%.
Our great country can handle the 11 million plus some new legal immigrants every year. What we can't handle is a constant flow of illegals indefinitely. We can't maintain a permanent subclass of people within our borders with a different language, culture, and value system and not expect conflict.
51 - Richard Brodie
I realize the hardships deporting them would create
I realize the hardships caused to Americans that NOT deporting them will cause to continue and worsen! The freeways in southern California are a nightmare. What about the hardship ON US of having to pay for the losing battle of road repair, expansion, and new construction that would NOT be necessary without the millions of illegals clogging and tearing up the roads.
the amount of citizen children with illegal parents
FUCK THIS NONSENSE. Eliminate RETROACTIVELY the insane policy of granting AUTOMATIC citizenship to children of illegals, based on a GEOGRAPHICAL ACCIDENT. A lot of them probably LIE about where their children were born! There's no law that says you have to be born in a hospital. If some kid was born south of the border, all they have to do is claim he was born in the U.S., and who's going to be able to prove otherwise!
I'm not convinced it is practical or "right" to deport all that are here, I do know it is possible and not that difficult to slow the flow of new illegals by 90+%.
It is perfectly right. But it's going to take a long time to locate them. Hopefully the vast majority can be sent back to where they belong, but that will require taking the handcuffs OFF of the authorities so they can put them ON the illegals, without having to go through a bunch of expensive, taxpayer funded, legal "human rights" bullshit.
52 - RedTard
"Eliminate RETROACTIVELY the insane policy of granting AUTOMATIC citizenship to children of illegals"
That would be an ex post facto law which is expressly forbidden in the constitution. I'll agree that the law should be changed immediately. We are to blame as much as the illegals for the problem we have now and being bitter about it doesn't move us forward.
By not enforcing the immigration laws we essentially sent a message that it is OK to come here. There's alot of unenforced laws on the books that many of us break. In Texas, carrying wirecutters or owning the encyclopedia britannica is technically illegal. We can't do anything about the foolish policies of the past but we can change those of the future and stopping any further illegal immigration is a great start.
53 - Richard Brodie
From the U.S. Immigration Service
The United States recognizes the U.S. citizenship of individuals according to two fundamental principles: jus soli, or right of birthplace, and jus sanguinis, or right of blood.
The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees citizenship at birth to ALMOST [my emphasis] all individuals born in the United States or in U.S. jurisdictions, according to the principle of jus soli. Certain individuals born in the United States, such as children of foreign heads of state or children of foreign diplomats, do not obtain U.S. citizenship under jus soli.
This is discriminatory. There is no reason to treat ordinary citizens of other countries any different than certain officials of those countries are treated.
Certain individuals born outside of the United States are born citizens because of their parents, according to the principle of jus sanguinis (which holds that the country of citizenship of a child is the same as that of his/her parents).
A consistent application of this principle would hold that the country of citizenship of a child of Mexican parents is the same as that of his/her parents, would it not?
No new law is required, just a determination that the true intent of the existing law was not being observed. And that could be held to invalidate citizenships thus erroneously recognized - and so would not amount to ex post facto.
54 - Arch Conservative
Seattle is second only to San Fransisco in terms of cities with anti-American leftist loons.
I'll pass.
I already live next to a state full of them.
See if you can guess which state I am from zing. Ill give you some hints it's one of the best states in the nation and we border the absolute worst state in the nation. We are on the coast. We don't have any major sprts teams. Our state legislature is the third largest english speaking legislatur in the world behing the US Congress and British Parliament.
55 - zingzing
aww... seattle is nice. i like it. people seem to like america well enough... no major problems.
i dunno... connecticut?
56 - Arch Conservative
Connecticut is a liberal shithole guess again
57 - zingzing
maine... northeast somewhere.
58 - Arch Conservative
maine is closer but still not right
59 - zingzing
n.h.
60 - Jet in Columbus
New Hampshire
61 - Arch Conservative
Bingo
62 - Jet in Columbus
Funny you don't sound Catholic!
63 - Victor Plenty
If you don't like a global government where only corporations are given the rights of citizenship, you need to constitute a global government that will protect all human beings' rights of citizenship.
It's too late to retreat to national governments. National governments have failed to secure the rights and prosperity of the majority of their citizens. The erosion of freedom and prosperity is slower in some areas than in others, but it will spread until it becomes universal, or until we realize the only force that can reverse this freefall is the united will of the entire human race.
That's something we are fully capable of achieving, and it's fully compatible with the classic can-do optimism informing the best parts of the American culture.
64 - RedTard
The answer to government oppression is more government then. Interesting logic, unfortunately all too common.
65 - Victor Plenty
The answer to lawlessness is government.
66 - Richard Brodie
Victor,
Without absolute power a global government could not possibly maintain itself against inevitable challenges by groups dissatisfied with its policies. And any attempt to outlaw dissatisfaction would only itself fuel dissatisfaction.
Power always tends to consolidate itself along economic lines, and the most powerful economic forces will always attempt, and usually succeed in co-opting government bureaucracies ostensibly established for noble purposes. Example: the takeover of the Food and Drug Administration by the pharmaceutical industry, with the consequent subordination of individual health considerations to considerations of drug company financial health.
Separate nations are the ONLY check and defense which the human race has, against the emergence of a completely totalitarian world government - a nightmare that could only become a reality if, God forbid, utopian dreamers like you ever manage to accumulate enough power.
67 - Chicano
IF it weren't for my people, a gallon of milk would cost $10. There will always be immigration. This country was created by immigrants. It is a land of immigrants. Illegals have rights too. I hope this sparks a new movement. Latinos have been used for profit long enough. We have already changed the culture in many states. Florida is Cuban and is has bilingual education. Los Angeles is the second largest Mexican city. American culture always likes to eat up other Anglo-saxon culturers but never Arab or Latino cultures. Could it be fear of our skin? This will lead to strong nationalism until America accepts pluralism. It must or Latinos will speak up. Anglos could learn from the Chicano work ethic. I hear a lot about lazy Anglos in many industries. You guys also hate having many kids because of your selfishness. That's pitiful. Latino's fondness for big families stem from Aztec cultural traditions. Culture is hard to die in a nation where there is only one White Anglo-saxon way. To hell with that. I'll retain my culture while eating up your's; America 50 years from now.
68 - Pizzdolph
What was once a benefit to our country is now a full-scale overpopulation and societal crisis. From stem to stern, our English language is under assault and our schools are drowning in ethnic violence, drugs and gang warfare. In California, Texas, Florida and Arizona, our hospitals suffer bankruptcies from non-paid services for 350,000 annual 'anchor babies'. Ten million illegal immigrants displace jobs from America's working poor and depress wages for many others at a cost of $133 billion annually in lost jobs. Leprosy, tuberculosis, Chagas Disease, hepatitis and other diseases 'pour' into our country within the bodies of illegal immigrants who avoid health screening before coming on board the United States.
(Commentary by Frosty Wooldridge
February 26, 2004)
Ten bucks for a gallon of milk don't sound so bad after all!
69 - Arch Conservative
Illegals don't have rights Chicano. You're an arrogant twit and how long do you think you can act the way you do before legal Americans say enough is enough and start getting serious with you?
You think we're just gonna sit and watch as you put the Mexican flag over the American one?
You think we're going to continue to cater to you in Spanish?
You think we're give you whatever you want just because you threaten us?
Fuck that.
Your day of reckoing is fast approaching and it ain't gonna be pretty pal.
70 - Pizzdolph
I gotta agree with you Arch, I wanted to reply something like that, but it was a bit more harsh and I would of probably got kicked out.
good job!
71 - Pizzdolph
You know, in the 40's, Germany had an immigration problem while their leader was at war with the world. The immigration problem was dealt with, and Germany fell with an unforgetable reputation.
Today, America has an immigration problem and our leader is at war with the world.
So whats the next step? Shall we fire up the ovens?
72 - heartcrossings
Interesting to know Chicano's POV. This the exactly the kind of strength (and hubris) that large and undocumented numbers bring.
73 - Bliffle
Chicano: "IF it weren't for my people, a gallon of milk would cost $10."
Sez who? Or did you just invent that?
"This country was created by immigrants."
So what? Does that convey a right to illegals to immigrate illegally?
"Illegals have rights too."
No they don't.
"Latinos have been used for profit long enough."
By latinos, mostly. Look at the Mexico DF government!
" We have already changed the culture in many states. Florida is Cuban and is has bilingual education. Los Angeles is the second largest Mexican city."
And that is what has caused enormous resentment by legal US citizens: refusal to assimilate. Most US citizens do not want the culture of submission, ignorance and superstition that has reduced the Mexican citizen to a starving menial laborer.
" American culture always likes to eat up other Anglo-saxon culturers but never Arab or Latino cultures. Could it be fear of our skin?"
You are the one who has raised the race issue, Chicano. US citizens are willing to accept people who are willing to acknowledge US values and not try to impose their corrupt and bankrupt cultural values on legal citizens. That's why we don't have "press 2 for Swedish, push 3 for German, push 4 for Russian, push 5 for Latvian," etc on our phones. You have never had to wade thru "push 6 for Polish, Push 7 for Vietnamese..." when you use our telephone system.
Grow up. Quit whining and learn to adapt.
74 - Bliffle
Chicano: "IF it weren't for my people, ..."
What do you mean "...my people..."? Do you own them? Do you speak for all of them? Are you trying to stir up racial conflict? Do you want to pit your people against my people? Or against my friend Ts people, who are completely different? If you think you can win a race war you are a bigger fool than anyone can imagine.
75 - Bliffle
If we're advocating Open Borders they have to be open BOTH ways. retired US citizens have to be able to go to Mexico and buy inexpensive homes, retire there and expect to hold onto the property and deploy the appreciated value as they see fit, and not have it confiscated. US businessmen have to be able to establish businesses and benefit therefrom without fear of interference from the Few Favored Families of Mexico. Are you, all you advocates of "illegals rights" and increased immigration, willing to advocate that quid pro quo? For without it you are supporting simple cross-border invasion. Are you willing to support the next step, invasion if the Mexican government violates the rights of legitimate US citizens with legitimate interests in Mexico?
If US citizens could operate in Mexico with the freedom and the legal protections thay have in the states there would be a flowering of the Mexican economy that would dwarf the $50billion that Mexicans in the US send to Mexico every year to subsidize the moribund economies of their native villages. It would be a Modern Wonder of the world, but right now it is inhibited by the corrupt Mexican government that favors and protects those Favored Few.