Conspiracy theorists are coming up with the standard mad ideas about the capture of the 15 British Royal Navy sailors and Marines, nabbed by Iran in the Persian Gulf while doing ordinary stop-and-search naval work. Though released and returned to Britain over the weekend, rumors are more rife than ever.
So here are the facts – you be the final judge.
Two weeks ago a small group of very lightly armed sailors and marines in two small rigids were routinely inspecting an Indian-flagged vessel a few nautical miles from shore. It was so routine that the patrolling helicopter providing nominal cover for the naval party had already headed back to their frigate, HMS Cornwall. It was situated some kilometres away and thus was unable to render any assistance.
The Cornwall had lost radio contact with the party, but was apparently told by the helicopter pilot that two Iranian gunboats were in the vicinity - still, not an unusual event in the Gulf and probably no real cause for concern at that stage.
Once they arrived on the scene, the Iranian crews (since revealed to have been members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard) were reportedly quite pleasant to the members of the Naval Party.
The gunboats were very heavily armed. They had RPGs and heavy-calibre weapons that could have blown the two small British boats to bits within seconds. Soon, they became quite menacing and aggressive, and were then joined by another FOUR gunboats… so six in all (and about 50 crewmen), who then corralled boats into a circle before turning about to head up the disputed Shatt-al-Arab to Iranian territory nearby.
It's worth noting here that the Royal Navy and other coalition ships, including those of the US Navy, are under orders not to engage the Shi'ite Iranians, partly because of the tensions in neighbouring Iraq, where the British area of control is in the mainly Shia south. The marines and sailors were only armed with a few SA80s, the standard assault rifle for the British military, and a few sidearms.
They had no choice but to do what the Iranians wanted. Any other action would have been suicidal and put the lives of all 15 at grave risk given the firepower ranged against them. The British didn't take action later either, and for good reason. It’s not the retaking of the Falkland Islands, but simply a waterborne peace-keeping and security mission.
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Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - moonraven
As usual, when someone tells me that he or she has The Facts, I have to ask: WERE YOU THERE?
I happen to know that you were not.
This piece is labeled "opinion".
Don't try to have it both ways.
2 - Lumpy
Did I misread the title? What does this story have to do with the BNP?
3 - ali
I think the writers'love for beer is gone a bit too far as tothe point of delusions.May I sujjest to him to take the trouble of looking through internet news or listen to sky news or read the irish times that all point to the fact that according to british officer, DETAIND not taken hostage,they were on spying mission or the so called intellegence gathering.And according to the GPS mounted on their own vassels they were in the iranian waters.If you want to give information to people to help them make up their mind research a bit on the subject and have a bit of fairness.It goes a long way.
4 - moonraven
Some folks are only interested in smearing propaganda over the issue.
5 - Clavos
Some folks are only interested in smearing propaganda over the issue
Too true.
ali (#4) did a good job of it, too.
6 - moonraven
Oh really?
The same information was in the newspaper here. And also in the weekly news mags.
And on several other news sites that are neither British nor gringo and are also not Middle East sites.
7 - Clavos
Stan:
The British crew were just on US network news in a press conference.
They confirmed all the salient facts you included in the article; in particular that they were NOT in Iranian waters when seized, and that they were mistreated. Interestingly, the female says she was kept apart from all the others, and that early on was told she was the only one still alive.
Nice report, mate!
8 - Clavos
Correction to my #8:
Leading seaman Faye Turney was told she was the only one still left in Iran; not the only one still alive.
9 - STM
Yeah, true, I wasn't there but you weren't there either Moonraven (or you Ali, and I'd suggest to you that the Irish Times report is another nonsense conspiracy theory report), but I've at least had access to information that you haven't, mainly because I chose to make a few phone calls. The Iranians have also done this stuff before, so it's nothing new.
And there won't be any attack on Iran. Bush might be a goose, but he's not that much of a goose.
10 - Dave Nalle
Nice writeup, btw, Stan. Thanks.
Ali. If they were 'detained' illegally - as all indications are they were - and then Iran asked for their 'diplomats' to be released in exchange, then it's quite clear that the Brit sailors were hostages by any definition of the term.
Dave
11 - STM
"Some folks are only interested in smearing propaganda over the issue."
Says the queen of both smearing AND propaganda ...
12 - STM
Thanks Dave ... events overtake all this though, as four British soldiers were killed in southern Iraq around the time of the release by what news agencies are saying was an Iranian-made bomb.
13 - STM
Members of the Naval Party are reporting from their base in the UK today that they WERE mistreated ... subject to a mock execution (blindfolded, handcuffed and pushed up against a stone wall in the Tehran prison where they were held) and kept in isolation cells and interrogated nightly. Faye Turney was also isolated and told all her colleagues were gone. They were also told that unless they agreed to say they had been in Iranian waters, they faced 7 years' jail in Iran.
Gotta love them Iranians ...
14 - Joshua Geller
The Royal Marines may be the 'best trained infantry in the World'. I don't know. I was in the straight leg American infantry, many years ago.
But there's something I was taught that the Royal Marines apparently weren't: It is your duty to resist interrogation, not to make confessions that are not to the advantage of your country. Everybody cracks eventually: make them work for it. Name, rank and serial number, as long as you can manage it.
I don't know if I would have caved as easily as these folks did. I'd like to think not. I'd like to think that if I did cave they wouldn't be able to put me on TV right away because they'd want the marks to heal.
But if I did cave this easily, I wouldn't think that I deserved anything but a court-martial. I might very well demand one in any case, wanting my name (and my honor) to be cleared.
15 - pc
That is interesting. "If they did NOT agree to say they had been in Iranian waters, they WOULD face 7 years' jail in Iran."... Just read between the lines -- This is apparently ILLEGAL -- They were NOT even in Iranian territory, so why should they receive any jail time? It does NOT make any sense. I just do NOT understand what those Brit sailors were thinking and why they finally agreed to say YES. Should it be an excuse in the first place?
16 - STM
Yeah, yeah, Josh, zzzz ... don't be a dickhead, now ... it's hard to know how it'd work with you stripped, held in an isolation cell and having mock executions carried out on you. But if you (you, personally, I mean) did everything you say you could, THEN you could come back and brag about it. Otherwise, it just sounds like typical never-really-done-anything jingoistic nonsense (unlike some other vets on this site).
Anyone can sit in their lounge room at home and pontificate on a web site about how they'd act under stress if they'd been captured. Big problem is, they haven't been - and are usually sitting in the comfort of a lounge chair with a beer in their hand ... and tell me too where the story says they are best-trained infantry in the world. You made that up. They have the longest and most intense training course, is what I said, and they do ... still, that's not what the story is about, is it?
And I say, if all this gets you hot under the collar, go and do your part. Re-enlist in the straight-leg whatever and get over there and serve your country. Much better than a bit of anonymous day-after armchair soldiering. And if you get captured, remember: keep your mouth shut, your chin up and your "honor" intact.
17 - Dave Nalle
There's a difference to admitting to whatever the captors want you to say and revealing military secrets and plans. Doing the former makes some sense, but the former should be resisted at all cost.
But let's put this in perspective. Prior to the outbreak of the French and Indian War, George Washington was captured while spying on the French in the Ohio Valley. They forced him to sign a false (well, actually kind of true) confession to having committed attrocities and being a spy in exchange for releasing him and his men. Washington signed it without hesitation, because he knew that no matter what the French did with it, no one who mattered to him in Virginia or in England would give a rat's ass because it came from the French. And as it turned out he was hailed as a hero among his own people on the basis of the crimes he had committed, because they thought the French deserved it.
So there you go.
Dave
18 - STM
Dave, true, and they were probably following orders ... ie, tell them whatever they want to hear, without actually telling them anything.
As you point out, pretty standard stuff, really.
And just like George Washington, today they are being treated as heroes back home.
19 - STM
Lol. It's worth going to Joshua's site where he's called the British "wimpey".
He's right of course in what he says: not everyone can be as tough as Americans. It's enough to make you cringe, isn't it?
Josh - get your hands above the keyboard, give yourself a damn good upper cut - and put one of those four arms to practical use.
20 - jajabor
Harsh interrogation methods like those employed by Iran are completely illegal by Geneva Conventions and Iran should be taken to the International Criminal Court. The marines were quite clearly coerced into making false confessions.
Given that they are some of the most endurance tested personnels in the world, it makes one wonder about the validity of confessions made by detainees in Gitmo. What's most surprising is how some "guests" who've been held for over 4 years are still maintaining their innocence.
I digress from the topic of discussion, but wanted to highlight how we choose to get worked up only when evil is done unto us.
21 - S.T.M
No, I agree with you. No one should be held without trial in those kinds of circumstances for the length of time they have been. No matter what some of them have done, they are at least entitled to the full protections of the same laws that serve to protect us.
Otherwise, seriously, what have we all become?
The fact that we do have the protections of those laws is the point of difference between "us" and "them" ...
22 - Cyrus the Great
STM,
Look at the difference. 6 Iranians in Iraq and one retired Iranian general in Turkey were were kidnapped. It was promised by the kidnapper that they will be confessed soon about Iran's connection to terrorism in Iraq and etc. NONE of them came in front of cammera and confess like a scared cat and we know from Abugharib prison experience how they have been treated!!! Compare them to your Brithish heros. They were taken from water like dirty rats without any resistance.
23 - S.T.M
Yes, those damned British. A bunch of dirty rats, indeed. Good for nothing buggers ... long history both of cowardice and the losing of battles and wars, unlike the Iranians with their military history going back to the time of Hannibal.
My belief is that Napolean was right. Before the Battle of Trafalgar, he dismissed the British with a flick of his hand, declaring them a nation of shopkeepers.
Hitler was right too, in the next century, declaring that eventually they'd be forced to come onside or be crushed under the heel of his jackboot.
Now the forces of darkness are milling around again, plotting their demise once more. And as usual, I can't for the life of me see how those awful British are going to survive.
Yes, a pack of dirty rats they are, and they should damn well be ashamed of themselves.
Consider this a little slap across the wrist, you pommy bastards
24 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"And there won't be any attack on Iran. Bush might be a goose, but he's not that much of a goose."
That is the only place where your views of this and mine diverge, mate. For the most part, the article was a fine piece of reporting. And it is true that the Iranians have pulled this before. But the American fleet sits off the Persian Gulf not for a view of the girls bathing in the beach, but for a view of the target to the north.
And trust me, at some point in the not too distant future, that fleet will go into action.
25 - Christopher Rose
Napoleon was wrong, we're a nation of shoppers, not shopkeepers! Trust me on this, my wallet knows!!