Late-term abortionist is killed by unknown gunman.
Dr. George Tiller, 67, of Wichita, Kansas, was shot to death at about ten o'clock (CDT) this morning as he entered his church, the Reformation Lutheran Church, for services. Details are still sketchy, but Wichita police have confirmed that the victim of the shooting is Dr. Tiller.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Ruvy
That's solely a function of chance, Ruvy. This assassin just happened to be a better shot than the last one.
You're missing the point, Dave. An abortion doctor was killed before, during the Clinton administration. Clinton didn't want to be a dictator - he wanted to be loved (what do you think Monica Levinsky was all about anyway? the big lug wanted to be loved - but settled for a blow-job instead. That is a nut case!). So, he never used that killing to expand his powers. I think Obama is more than anything else, power-hungry. His training at the knee of Sol Alinsky taught him how to seize power - and he has.
In case you haven't noticed, he has nationalized the Big Three, nationalized a good part of the banking system, and G-d knows what else he is going after when you the people aren't watching like hawks.
And it appears he hasn't quite resurrected that hoary democratic right of the English and Aussies, the "writ of habeus corpus".
27 - leighann
Not really read any ariticles on it. At first I thought that it could not even be true. I am a little suspicious myself and have a hard time determining what is true and what is not. I do not give much creedence to articles put out my extreme pro-life movements or extreme pro-choice movements since they seems to all want to bend facts to get people to come to their side. I havce a hard time telling who is who. Other than these types of articles, I have not seen many. It seems that the ones that I have seen are from very polarized groups.
This is what I am trying to say. Why do I not hear more about it? If they were sticking things in the skulls of terrorists and sucking their brains out at Gitmo bay it would be all over the place. Just as it is with waterboarding which seems to be a lot less brutal. You can't go anywhere without hearing about that. People are outraged. Should they be? That can be saved for another discussion. I do not see that kind of outrage. Thats all I am saying.
28 - roger nowosielski
Leighann,
The story just came out. I believe you're gonna see some backlash. Give it some time.
29 - zingzing
you're kidding leighann... this stuff was all over the place during the last few years. it was a HUGE hot button issue. it was like the "hey ya" of political controversy. inescapable, and eventually, sickening. and nearly everyone, for once, was on the same side.
30 - leighann
That is interesting Zig. Dont know where I was when all of that was happening. The last few things that I heard about it was my grandmohter telling me that Clinton vetoed the bill to make it illegal and then when Bush let it go through.
My point is that everywhere you look you see Gitmo Bay, gay marriage, and so on (look over the last few months of articles here for instance) but I haven't seen any about this subject of partial birth abortions (other than the somewhat related issue of botched abortions during the campaign) and they are obviously still going on. Maybe it is because as you said, most people agree on this issue. So then why are doctors still performing this procedure? Are doctors still performing this procedure?
31 - Jordan Richardson
it was like the "hey ya" of political controversy.
Best. Line. Ever.
32 - Baronius
When I saw this, I immediately began speculating whether the gunman is evil, crazy, or stupid. But when you're dealing with fanatics, probably "or" is the wrong word.
33 - Dave Nalle
Mostly crazy, Baronius. Once you accept the tenets of a fanatical ideology you can no longer really be considered sane.
Dave
34 - leighann
Dave
Please explain what you mean by "fanatical ideology." Just want to be clear about what you are saying.
35 - zingzing
it's like ruvy, leighann.
36 - El Bicho
that was my reaction, zing
37 - STM
It even made the newspapers here.
38 - Ruvy
"fanatical ideology."it's like ruvy, leighann.
I don't know about the killer of Dr. Tiller. I don't think he was crazy at all. He did what he believed in, disgusting as it was. To call him crazy is to dismiss the evil in his soul as crazy, and thus hide your head in the sand.
Dave, zing and el bicho all write like typical bourgeois cowards, with their heads buried in the sand and their asses sticking way up in the air. They refuse to accept that evil exists and every time it manifests itself, it gives this trio (and the many who think like them) a hard kick in the butt.
They also have trouble with people who live their beliefs, instead of just mouthing them. So, it's easier for them to call me crazy than to every admit that I might be right. There is a reason I'm so contemptuous of them - their cowardice.
39 - Dave Nalle
Ruvy, I don't disagree that Obama may use this incident to advance his agenda. They'll probably call the federal choice bill the "Tiller Bill" in his honor. What I'm disputing is your suggestion that the administration set up the assassination in a reichstag-fire type operation. No evidence to support it and no real justification for speculating. Hence the comparison to Alex Jones.
Dave
40 - Ruvy
Ruvy, I don't disagree that Obama may use this incident to advance his agenda. They'll probably call the federal choice bill the "Tiller Bill" in his honor....
I don't think Obama set this killing up (though I wouldn't put it past him). I never suggested that. The "Reichstag fire" reference is not to who set the fire, but to how the Nazis used it to win control of the Reichstag a couple of months later. And here you are, agreeing with what I've said in principle, if not in detail....
I always knew you were smarter than zing. I won't comment on el bicho. I don't read his comments often enough to judge....
41 - STM
Sussman: "So his life ended prematurely?"
There's another side to that coin too, if we're talking paradox.
He was killed by a pro-lifer.
42 - El Bicho
"I won't comment on el bicho. I don't read his comments often enough to judge...."
Yet you did just that in the previous comment. Not putting it past Obama to have set up the killing of this doctor is just as nutty as the 9/11 truthers who think Bush allowed that tragedy to happen.
43 - zingzing
ruvy, if obama doesn't use tiller's murder in some sort of power grab, will you eat your words?
i think not. you're a classic conspiracy theorist, who loves the theory, but totally lacks in follow through. i'll bet that if this thing comes and goes, you won't have one fucking word to say and you'll completely forget who tiller is.
let's watch. we'll see what happens. then we'll see who is smarter.
(this is not a judgment on dave's intelligence... this is just proving that ruvy is a ridiculous old man.)
44 - Arthur Trafford
Dear concerned citizens of the United States of America:
Today we witnessed an end to the death ministry of Dr George Killer (oops, Tiller). Dr. Tiller and Hitler had very much in common; they both waited for the winds-of-change to blow favorably in their direction. Changing Judiciary votes, preying on the amoral mindset of the majority or minority of our population, all contributed to the victimization of hysterical pregnant mothers (over 30,000,000 who became men's "Pleasure toys"), who later realized they are pregnant.
Dr Tiller and his assassin are both guilty of crimes against humanity, they are both serial killers. One just has more notches on his gun than the other one does! And neither one is a victim, for they both gave their life to an unworthy cause. Dr Tiller no longer has the option to repent, but hopefully his assassin will.
A wanted unborn = A life birthed child
The same, but unwanted unborn = A dead suctioned fetus
What a tragic dichotomy!
Primary solution to the Pro-Life Pro-Choice dilemma:
All of us do wrong and compare ourselves with others;
We are not more righteous* than hysterical pregnant mothers.
And if most women-with-child was loved by the child's father
She would smile and happily say "No abortion" why bother!
Ask God and the person you mated with to forgive you, forgive yourself and live the abundant life!!!
Sincerely,
Arthur Trafford
45 - Ruvy
ruvy, if obama doesn't use tiller's murder in some sort of power grab, will you eat your words?
zing, you really do not get it, do you? Much of the power has already been seized. You have no right to a writ of habeus corpus. Major corporations are already effectively in the government's hands due to what has amounted to a nationalization of the banking system (and subsequent payouts to companies under government conditions), the nationalization of the automobile industry, and effective nationalization of its many service industries (by forcing them to follow government policy in serving the auto firms). That's a lot right there. Lots of print media are pretty much finished (a whole bunch of bureau chiefs and their staffs are being sent home from Jerusalem - where there is always a news story to file - in order to save money), leaving the remaining internet editions of "newspapers" under the effective supervision of the Department of Commerce, which supervises the World Wide Web.
It's not necessary to send jackbooted thugs through the streets proclaiming Obama "il duce". It is not important if Republicans win elections if the important posts remain in the hands of the White House or its flunkies, or if the Republicans who control them are essentially subservient to the president.
One big blockage is the SCOTUS. Obamaa needs to pack the supreme court if he can by 1 January 2011. The other big blockage are the thousands, if not millions of American gun owners.
Other than that, welcome to United Soviet Socialist America, moya droogi.
46 - roger nowosielski
#44
A perfect example of Christian compassion.
47 - zingzing
ok, ruvy...
48 - zingzing
i know you got to test it out, but how much of the meth did you smoke?
49 - Baronius
Ruvy's right. He didn't accuse the Obama administration of killing Tiller. I thought he had, and I was going to slam him about it, but I reread his comments and he didn't. The closest he came is when he said he wouldn't put it past them.
No one knows who set the Reichstag fire. Maybe Ruvy could use better-known historical references next time.
50 - Clavos
I think Ruvy is right on other points as well.
1. The mantra of the Obama administration is "never waste a good crisis," and they won't this time. What and how they do to use it is open, that they will use it is a given.
2. Obama has already taken significant steps to seize unprecedented control of American citizens' lives, and has announced plans for even more.
51 - Ruvy
Baronius,
I didn't pick the analogy of the Reichsdag fire. I saw it in an e-mail from a friend on this Jewish list I belong to. I think it appropriate - not because it accuses Obama of arranging for the killing of the late Dr. Tiller, but because the way the Nazis exploited the fire to seize power.
Nevertheless, thank you for re-reading my comments before trying to jump down my throat.
52 - Dave Nalle
Trafford seems to have mastered the nuances of violating Godwin's Law.
Dave
53 - Ruvy
Clavos,
Thank you for the back-up. Too many folks in America are wearing the Sunglasses of Denial and cannot or refuse to see how their nation is being stolen from them.
54 - Baronius
Dave, on this thread at least, Ruvy already broke that law.
55 - Arch Conservative
54 comments? really?
All that really needs to be said is "good riddance."
56 - zingzing
maybe one day, someone will say the same thing about you. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
57 - Jordan Richardson
Honestly, Arch, are you really that bent on proving to anyone who'll listen to your idiotic ranting that you're a vile human being?
That you claim to represent "conservative values" is hilarious, but it's even more hilarious that you claim to be a human being. You rant on and on about "King Barry" taking away your rights and your freedoms and now you say "good riddance" in reference to the death of a human being? Wow.
I know in the past you've practically advocated the assassination of Barack Obama and you've spewed some other hateful nonsense, so I shouldn't be all that surprised at your comments. In truth, I'm not surprised that you said it. I'm only surprised that somewhere deep inside that [personal attack deleted] brain of yours you actually think that somebody gives a flying fuck what you think.
Honestly. A post essentially cheering the death of a human being doesn't violate the comments policy, but zing's "personal attack" gets deleted? Bravo.
58 - Jordan Richardson
The comment policy says the following:
In addition, we reserve the right to edit/delete comments that are some combination of pointlessly vulgar, vile, cruel, without redeeming qualities, and an embarrassment to the site.
Subjective? Yes, but we know them when we see them and so do you.
It would seem to me that Arch's comments fit the criteria pretty well, yet all that seems to be enforced around here is that of a personal attack in regards to another poster.
Any reason to not think Arch's cheerleading of the murder of Dr. Tiller is an embarrassment to the site?
59 - Ruvy
Bing: All that really needs to be said is "good riddance."
Zing: maybe one day, someone will say the same thing about you....
Someday, someone will say that about all of us, zingster - including (not necessarily especially) you. I'm off to Jerusalem today to listen to a friend say "good riddance" to quite a number of people....
Hopefully, someone will have the sense on these comment threads to pay attention to the real threats to the planet - like the North Koreans - or in the case of your own beknighted nation, the assholes who shout down free speech - what little that remains of it, that is....
I will be in the Eternal Capital of my people today, enjoying cheesecake and coffee, getting a haircut and trying to scare up some more work. Hopefully, a nice day.
Laters!
60 - El Bicho
Best not to try and make sense of any of it, Jordan.
61 - Jordan Richardson
Bah, you're probably right.
62 - Dr Dreadful
Jordan, I felt that Arch's comment was pretty mild by most measures - and especially by Arch's standards.
63 - zingzing
by the way, my "personal attack" that got deleted was just saying that the person who says so ("good riddance") would be just as awful as archie was. so it wasn't a personal attack. just an attack on such thinking. take it how you will.
actually, the line was "and that person will be an asshole," or something like that.
comments editor is getting a bit touchy these days.
64 - El Bicho
zing, it has to be tough keeping track of different standards for each writer.
65 - Arch Conservative
It's just too damn easy with some of you.
A man murders hundreds if not thousands of babies and I'm the vile one for not crying in my beer over his death?
If I was like you Jordan, and prone to extrapolating the words of others to my own personal extreme conclusions, Imight say that your attacks on what I said constitute support of the infanticide of which Tiller was guilty of.
I find it ironic that you and others claim I don't matter and then actually spend so much time and effort responding to the things I write. While you're on your little crusade to prove how morally superior you are to me Jordan don't forget about all the people that were far more offensive in their reaction to Jerry Falwell's death than I've been about Tillers.
In any event my concious is clear. I didn't kill Tiller. I didn't advocate that any do what was done. I merely stated that I think the world is indeed a better place without him in it. Tiller has more blood on his hands than the man that killed him yet you losers don't seem to have a problem with that. The fact that you mourn Tiller's death while celebrating those of the many babies that were killed by him is what's truly sickening.
There's the legal system, which was never able to hold Tiller accountable for the illegeal partial birth abortions he performed and then there's real justice. We saw real justice yesterday.
66 - roger nowosielski
#57 & #58, Jordan.
I'm in total agreement with you. In fact, the comments in question don't differ that much from those of Scott Roeder's many comments to Operation Rescue and other anti-abortion groups, comments which called for "decisive action" against Tiller. In fact, the likelihood is that some of these organizations which where the recipients of Roader's emails may be subject to criminal prosecution. IMO, Arch's comments transcend the standards of Personal Attack as specified by the BC policy; they're much more egregious than that.
67 - Jordan Richardson
If I was like you Jordan, and prone to extrapolating the words of others to my own personal extreme conclusions, Imight say that your attacks on what I said constitute support of the infanticide of which Tiller was guilty of.
"Personal extreme conclusions?" So you didn't say "good riddance?" Because that was pretty much what I addressed...if that's not what you wrote in your post, perhaps you can tell me what you really did write.
And in what way can you extrapolate anything beyond "what you said sickens me" from what I said addressing your comments? Oh, wait...I forgot. Anyone who doesn't agree with you automatically opposes everything you stand for. Left, right. Republican, Democrat. I forgot you're so damn brainwashed by the "two sides" bullshit that you can't imagine somebody holding a third or fourth or fifth point of view (that Dems and Republicans aren't all that different, that they're both shitty, that left and right really doesn't matter that much, etc.).
Fact is that I agree that abortions are tragic. But they are legal activities and you are essentially rubber stamping TERRORISM by approving of these actions and placing women and doctors in harm's way and inciting fear. And your grand excuse is to say "I didn't kill him?" Wow.
I merely stated that I think the world is indeed a better place without him in it.
Tell that to his family. Go ahead. Shit, you're probably callous enough to do just that. You're probably fucked up enough to see this as some sort of disturbing atonement for his "sins."
The fact that you mourn Tiller's death while celebrating those of the many babies that were killed by him is what's truly sickening.
Find me one person that "celebrates" abortion and I'll find you one that celebrates terrorism and murder in his own country.
We saw real justice yesterday.
So domestic terrorism is real justice in your mind? Were you cool with the Oklahoma City bombing, too, or was that not terrorism because you didn't agree with the terrorist? Is murder okay if it's cause you agree with? I can only assume you'd answer the latter in the affirmative.
If you want to overturn your country's laws on abortion, go ahead. We have abortion up here in Canada, by the way, and amazingly enough people aren't bumping off abortion doctors and cheering about it later (three doctors were attacked in the 90s, however). You truly live in a sick society that manages to politicize EVERYTHING, including basic science and basic human ethics.
And don't flatter yourself, Arch. It's not like it takes the least bit of effort to respond to your nonsense. That I continue to do so says more about me than it does about any valid, meaningful point you make. And I think I know how to proceed from here...
68 - roger nowosielski
Jordan,
What do you think about a group email to Chris? I really think it is an embarrassment to this site to let these comments stand. I'm all for freedom of expression, but this cuts against all standards of human decency.
69 - zingzing
archie, you're just digging a nasty, black hole for yourself. yeah, the guy did some controversial stuff. maybe he was playing loose with the law. i'm not sure. he claims to have only performed it when the mother was in jeopardy of losing her life, and after having consulted another doctor on the subject. some people disagreed.
whatever he was doing, he got shot in the head while passing out pamphlets at church and you're calling it "justice."
it's not "justice." justice doesn't involve sticking a gun in someone's face and pulling the trigger. justice doesn't involve running away like some little puss-puss after you've done it. if you think it does, i think you're dangerous, a little sick and frankly, inhuman.
you claim to luv all da widdle babies, but then here you are, playing about in this guy's blood like it's a kiddie pool. i don't like abortion, but i don't like murder either. you're just a hypocrite.
70 - roger nowosielski
Fuck it, zing. I don't see why you bother engaging him. By doing so, you're only providing him with credibility.
71 - zingzing
all of this, especially in the light of the fact that it's this kind of internet chatter that got tiller killed, just shows what an ignorant person you can be, arch.
72 - zingzing
you're right, roger, i'm done.
73 - roger nowosielski
You know, zing. It really makes me wonder. The chatter you're talking about has been going on from that guy for quite some time, Operation Rescue being one of them. I can't find the link now to yesterday's story, but it really puzzled me.
If I were Attorney General, I would look into the possibility of criminal prosecution. It's like being an accomplice.
74 - zingzing
i don't think that's the answer, roger. that's just taking it one step too far. sure, those websites allow that shit to happen all the time, but that's the great anarchic nature of the internet. i'd have it no other way.
still, one would hope that, if operation rescue did nothing to dissuade this guy, or, worse, watched as others egged him on, that should tell you all you need to know about what kind of organization they run. people will naturally shy away from that kind of rhetoric (as most people aren't murderers, or celebrators of murderers...), leaving them with only the hardest of the hardcore, which are very easy to watch...
75 - roger nowosielski
Well, yes. But remember the chatter before Columbine and other school killings. Nobody paid any attention. As I said, I'm all for freedom of expression, but aren't we going to listen to the clues.
Operation Rescue, for example, may be what it is. But even if you're sympathetic with the ideas of nuts such as Roader, there's got to be some responsibility when they advocate "decisive solution."
I'm not saying that's the answer, but a step in this direction would make some of those radical groups more wary and more accountable.